It degenerated too quickly. The initial ruleset was weak and people were willing to exploit. Its ultimate demise is illegal, however, but that's not stopping them.
It degenerated too quickly. The initial ruleset was weak and people were willing to exploit. Its ultimate demise is illegal, however, but that's not stopping them.
Its not illegal. Xyl and Suth found that rule 203 was borked (It says a proposal passes if the condition was met. The condition was met...it didnt matter that the vote was still open.) They used that to win the game. And even if you say they haven't won the game since prior proposals therefore had passed, it shouldn't matter because rule 203's terribleness essentially made playing the game impossible.
Essentially, FN #3 should have a more stable ruleset. The real question is why you guys don't try something like that here...... *Evil suggestion*
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Mafia MVP Harry Potter Mafia!
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
Because loran, our rule 203 (now rule 304) doesn't work like that. It only checks it at the end of the voting period.
Correct, i noticed that. It appears Yuanti attempted to make a simpler version of your 304 (the errata to 203) when he/binary built the FN #2 ruleset.
And simpler aint always better.
Ah well, congrats on winning the "war" on nomic #1
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Mafia MVP Harry Potter Mafia!
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
I didn't really have much to do with the Nomic #2 rules. I don't recall seeing them before the players did.
The / was there since i didnt know if you had any involvement. Regardless, it's not really the worst thing that could happen.....mistakes like these now prevent them from happening in future nomics, and i don't really mean to assign anyone any "fault" for what happened there.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Mafia MVP Harry Potter Mafia!
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
Now I know this doesn't pertain to #1, but I thought I'd see if you guys had any thought first.
A nomic with no initial rule set. A "draft" nomic. Something like for one week, players in that nomic can put ideas to vote for immutables and mutable. Almost like a decleration of nomic rules, much like the way the founding fathers of th USA did 200+ years ago. Then once the week is up, put the rule set to a vote, and if it doesn't pass, one more week of initial rule proposals. I think this would get around a lot of the stuff that the first round of turns seems to try and correct. Now all I need is to figure out how to impliment Demonomics, and Renomicans....
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
banner by god child. he'd make you one too, if you weren't so bad at posting.
Please note that Rule 304 was administratively changed to replace the word "debate" with the word "voting." This is necessary after the administrative changes from last week divorcing the debate period from the voting period.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I am no longer on MTGS staff, so please don't contact me asking me to do staff things. :|
Please note that Rule 304 was administratively changed to replace the word "debate" with the word "voting." This is necessary after the administrative changes from last week divorcing the debate period from the voting period.
Getting a little tired of unilateral mod action. We've all seen how well that went in nomic #2. This change hasn't been approved by the players. This loophole could've gone unnoticed for at least another turn if I hadn't spoken to you, which I did in confidence knowing that you are not a player.
Binary: Could you please change the thread title of 312 to match the others?
EDIT: Okay, the spoiler version of the rules was looking a little ugly, so instead I made this: TiddlyWiki Version. Right now only the rules that have changed have rules pages. I might make the others if I happen to feel bored.
The problem I have with Binary's rules is that if I wanted to print them out, I would have to print out all the deleted text too. This way if I wanted to print them out, all I would get is the text currently in effect right now. Plus, if a rule is affected twice, how do you know which part was added and which part was subtracted?
Personally? Memory, otherwise I don't know. What problems are you having with a spoiler? Are you doing this for a quick reference, or to show a short history of this nomic?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
banner by god child. he'd make you one too, if you weren't so bad at posting.
I have the spoiler, the page just looks really ugly. I mean, uglier than the rest of the pages I've made.
Well, both in a way. I wanted a cleaner set of rules, but I also wanted to look back on the nomic without having to pour back through a whole bunch of threads or the slow load times of Salvation.
I see now. I thought it was just my end with the poor load times... poor servers. Well I'm happy with the attempt you made, especially if you get bored enough to finish it. I was thinking about player profiles to show who voted for what and maybe even why(if they posted a reason). That way you could see any trends, or get a sense of who votes for what kind of proposal, but I'm just sooooo busy.:munch:
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
banner by god child. he'd make you one too, if you weren't so bad at posting.
I see. Would you make this public? Something like that would cut down on the crap proposals that people just toss out there. Me included on that list. I have so many ideas, but I don't know if they are all needless the way this nomic is going. A list like that would eliminate a lot of them I'm sure, because the data would be easier to see in say graph form rather then poll and post form spread over several threads.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
banner by god child. he'd make you one too, if you weren't so bad at posting.
Yeah, I'd have it as part of the TiddlyWiki that's up there.
I'm not sure exactly how to represent voting records as graphics, but I do know how I'm going to do it with text. Besides, text is easier for me to update than graphics.
Proposal 3XX: At all times there will be two active turns following the current turn order. Both active turns will begin and end at the same time.
Probably? The thing is, the current wording of 309 "works" as long as 201 keeps its current wording, but many of us (myself included, at first) have been interpreting it wrong. Once a player takes a simulturn, there will always be two active turns.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If your signature takes up more lines than your actual post does, you should fix one or both of them.
The problem is once players invoke judgment the whole situation gets messy. This is definitely an abusable rule. While I can't see a benefit from abusing it, some people abuse rules to abuse rules.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
banner by god child. he'd make you one too, if you weren't so bad at posting.
The ability to "invoke judgment" is kind of abusable, yes. I'm really not sure how 309 is supposed to be abusable, as no one will ever be able to invoke a simulturn again.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If your signature takes up more lines than your actual post does, you should fix one or both of them.
No more simulturns? I must have missed that post! Why no more simulturns?!
In addition I'd like any feedback on adding this:
Proposal 3XX: At all times there will be two active turns following the current turn order. Both active turns will begin and end at the same time.
3XX.1 If at any time any turn is interrupted by invoked judgment, or a different official stoppage of play, that time will be added to the end of the players turns.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
banner by god child. he'd make you one too, if you weren't so bad at posting.
"...a talisman against all evil, so long as you obey me."
Its not illegal. Xyl and Suth found that rule 203 was borked (It says a proposal passes if the condition was met. The condition was met...it didnt matter that the vote was still open.) They used that to win the game. And even if you say they haven't won the game since prior proposals therefore had passed, it shouldn't matter because rule 203's terribleness essentially made playing the game impossible.
Essentially, FN #3 should have a more stable ruleset. The real question is why you guys don't try something like that here...... *Evil suggestion*
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Avatar by Grey. Banner by spiderboy4 from High~Light Studios
Correct, i noticed that. It appears Yuanti attempted to make a simpler version of your 304 (the errata to 203) when he/binary built the FN #2 ruleset.
And simpler aint always better.
Ah well, congrats on winning the "war" on nomic #1
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
I didn't really have much to do with the Nomic #2 rules. I don't recall seeing them before the players did.
The / was there since i didnt know if you had any involvement. Regardless, it's not really the worst thing that could happen.....mistakes like these now prevent them from happening in future nomics, and i don't really mean to assign anyone any "fault" for what happened there.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
A nomic with no initial rule set. A "draft" nomic. Something like for one week, players in that nomic can put ideas to vote for immutables and mutable. Almost like a decleration of nomic rules, much like the way the founding fathers of th USA did 200+ years ago. Then once the week is up, put the rule set to a vote, and if it doesn't pass, one more week of initial rule proposals. I think this would get around a lot of the stuff that the first round of turns seems to try and correct. Now all I need is to figure out how to impliment Demonomics, and Renomicans....
banner by god child. he'd make you one too, if you weren't so bad at posting.
Getting a little tired of unilateral mod action. We've all seen how well that went in nomic #2. This change hasn't been approved by the players. This loophole could've gone unnoticed for at least another turn if I hadn't spoken to you, which I did in confidence knowing that you are not a player.
"...a talisman against all evil, so long as you obey me."
EDIT: Okay, the spoiler version of the rules was looking a little ugly, so instead I made this: TiddlyWiki Version. Right now only the rules that have changed have rules pages. I might make the others if I happen to feel bored.
Avatar by Grey. Banner by spiderboy4 from High~Light Studios
Current Nomic #1 Rules
Not as much info for the changed rules, but that is more like history for history sake.
banner by god child. he'd make you one too, if you weren't so bad at posting.
Avatar by Grey. Banner by spiderboy4 from High~Light Studios
banner by god child. he'd make you one too, if you weren't so bad at posting.
Well, both in a way. I wanted a cleaner set of rules, but I also wanted to look back on the nomic without having to pour back through a whole bunch of threads or the slow load times of Salvation.
Avatar by Grey. Banner by spiderboy4 from High~Light Studios
banner by god child. he'd make you one too, if you weren't so bad at posting.
Avatar by Grey. Banner by spiderboy4 from High~Light Studios
Hmm... you lost me on this one. What has a higher priority? I don't understand what you thinking I guess...
banner by god child. he'd make you one too, if you weren't so bad at posting.
Avatar by Grey. Banner by spiderboy4 from High~Light Studios
banner by god child. he'd make you one too, if you weren't so bad at posting.
I'm not sure exactly how to represent voting records as graphics, but I do know how I'm going to do it with text. Besides, text is easier for me to update than graphics.
Avatar by Grey. Banner by spiderboy4 from High~Light Studios
Proposal 3XX: At all times there will be two active turns following the current turn order. Both active turns will begin and end at the same time.
banner by god child. he'd make you one too, if you weren't so bad at posting.
Probably? The thing is, the current wording of 309 "works" as long as 201 keeps its current wording, but many of us (myself included, at first) have been interpreting it wrong. Once a player takes a simulturn, there will always be two active turns.
banner by god child. he'd make you one too, if you weren't so bad at posting.
In addition I'd like any feedback on adding this:
Proposal 3XX: At all times there will be two active turns following the current turn order. Both active turns will begin and end at the same time.
3XX.1 If at any time any turn is interrupted by invoked judgment, or a different official stoppage of play, that time will be added to the end of the players turns.
banner by god child. he'd make you one too, if you weren't so bad at posting.