I submitted the request for subforum creation back on 1/20 but have never gotten any response (including after a reminder on 1/29). I just posted again to try to get this taken care of.
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I am no longer on MTGS staff, so please don't contact me asking me to do staff things. :|
I've got a report for a game of Nomic my friends and I are playing, I figured I'd post it here, just in case anyone is interested.
To start, the initial rules rules we're using, for reference:
101. All players must always abide by all the rules then in effect, in the form in which they are then in effect. The rules in the Initial Set consists of Rules 101-116 (immutable) and 201-213 (mutable).
102. Initially, rules in the 100s are immutable and rules in the 200s are mutable. Rules subsequently enacted or transmuted (i.e. changed from immutable to mutable or vice versa) may be immutable or mutable regardless of their numbers, and rules in the Initial Set may be transmuted regardless of their numbers.
103. A rule change is any of the following: (1) the enactment, repeal, or amendment of a mutable rule; (2) the enactment, repeal or amendment of an amendment; or (3) the transmutation of an immutable rule into a mutable rule, or vice versa. (Note: this definition implies that, at least initially, all new rules are mutable. Immutable rules, as long as they are immutable, may not be amended or repealed; mutable rules, as long as they are mutable, may be amended or repealed. No rule is absolutely immune to change.)
104. All rule changes proposed in the proper way shall be voted on. They will be adopted if and only if they receive the required number of votes.
105. Every player is an eligible voter. Every eligible voter must participate in every vote on rule changes.
106. Any proposed rule change must be written down before it is voted on. If adopted, it must guide play in the form in which it was voted on.
107. No rule change may take effect earlier than the moment of the completion of the vote that adopted it, even if its wording explicitly states otherwise. No rule change may have retroactive application.
108. Each rule change shall be given a rank order-number (ordinal number) for reference. The numbers shall begin with 301, and each rule change proposed in the proper way shall receive the next successive integer, whether or not the proposal is adopted. if a rule is repealed and then re-enacted, it receives the ordinal number of the proposal to amend or transmute it. If a rule is amended or transmuted, it receives the ordinal number of the proposal to amend or transmute it. If an amendment is amended or repealed, the entire rule of which it is a part receives the ordinal number of the proposal to amend or repeal the amendment.
109. Rule changes that transmute immutable rules into mutable rules may be adopted if and only if the vote is unanimous among the eligible voters.
110. Mutable rules that are inconsistent in any way with some immutable rule (except by proposing to transmute it) are wholly void and without effect. They do not implicitly transmute immutable rules into mutable rules and at the same time amend them. Rules changes that transmute immutable rules into mutable rules will be effective if and only if they explicitly state their transmuting effect.
111. If a rule change as proposed is unclear, ambiguous, paradoxical, or destructive of play, or if it arguably consists of two or more rule changes compounded or if it is an amendment that makes no difference, or if it is of otherwise questionable value, then the other players may suggest amendments or argue against the proposal before the vote. A reasonable amount of time must be allowed for the debate. The proponent decides the final form in which the proposal is to be voted on and decides the time to end debate and vote. The only cure for a bad proposal is prevention: a negative vote.
112. The state of affairs that constitutes winning may not be changed from achieving n points to any other state of affairs. However, the magnitude of n and the means of earning points may be changed, and rules that establish a winner when play cannot continue may be enacted and (while they are mutable) be amended or repealed.
113. A player always has the option to forfeit the game rather than continue to play or incur a game penalty. No penalty worse than losing, in the judgment of the player to incur it, may be imposed.
114. There must always be at least one mutable rule. The adoption of rule changes must never become completely impermissible.
115. Rule changes that affect rules needed to allow or apply rule changes are as permissible as other rule changes. Even rule changes that amend or repeal their own authority are permissible. No rule change or type of move is impermissible solely on account of the self-reference or self-application of a rule.
116. Whatever is not explicitly prohibited or regulated by a rule is permitted and unregulated, with the sole exception of changing the rules, which is permitted only when a rule or set of rules explicitly or implicitly permits it.
201. Players shall alternate in clockwise order, taking one whole turn apiece. Turns may not be skipped or passed, and parts of turns may not be omitted. All players begin with zero points.
202. One turn consists of two parts, in this order: (1) proposing one rule change and having it voted on; and (2) throwing one die once and adding the number of points on its face to one's score.
203. A rule change is adopted if and only if the vote is unanimous among the eligible voters.
204. If and when rule changes can be adopted without unanimity, the players who vote against winning proposals shall receive 10 points apiece.
205. An adopted rule change takes full effect at the moment of the completion of the vote that adopted it.
206. When a proposed rule change is defeated, the player who proposed it loses 10 points.
207. Each player always has exactly one vote.
208. The winner is the first player to achieve 100 (positive) points.
209. At no time may there be more than 25 mutable rules.
210. Players may not conspire or consult on the making of future rule changes unless they are teammates.
211. If two or more mutable rules conflict with one another, or if two or more immutable rules conflict with one another, then the rule with the lower ordinal number takes precedence. If at least one of the rules in conflict explicitly says of itself that it defers to another rule (or type of rule) or takes precedence over another rule (or type of rule), then such provisions shall supersede the numerical method for determining precedence. If two or more rules claim to take precedence over one another or to defer to one another, then the numerical method must again govern.
212. If players disagree about the legality of a move or the interpretation or application of a rule, then the player preceding the one moving is to be the Judge and decide the question. Disagreement, for the purposes of this rule, may be created by the insistence of any player. Such a process is called invoking judgment. When judgment has been invoked, the next player may not begin his or her turn without the consent of the majority of the other players. The Judge's judgment may be overruled only by a unanimous vote of the other players, taken before the next turn is begun. If a Judge's judgment is overruled, the player preceding the Judge in the playing order becomes the new Judge for the question, and so on, except that no player is to be Judge during his or her own turn or during the turn of a teammate.
213. If the rules are changed so that further play is impossible, or if the legality of a move is impossible to determine with finality, or if by the Judge's best reasoning, not overruled, a move appears equally legal and illegal, then the first player who is unable to complete a turn is the winner. This rule takes precedence over every other rule determining the winner.
Next, the rules which we've added thus far:
301. Append the rules of Magic: the Gathering to the rules of Nomic. There is a 1 in front of each rule number. These are a new category outside of mutable and immutable, but may be changed as mutable rules.
302. Following Jason's Next turn, a game of Magic: the Gathering (hereafter known as Magic) will begin. The parts of a turn of Nomic occur at the beginning of that player's upkeep. Each player chooses one deck to use in this game.
303. Rule 112 becomes a mutable rule.
304. Each player's life total and score are added together. All references to either score now reference this score, called Hit Points (HP)
305. Whenever a player would lose a game of Magic, that player instead re-enters the game as a new player and one is added to the fail counter. Whenever the fail counter reaches 2, is reset to 0 and each player that didn't cause the fail counter to increase gains 10 HP.
306. If all power's and toughness's' of two creatures, one of which is blocking the other, are equal, the creature's controllers each roll a die until it is not a tie. All combat damage that would be dealt by the creature controlled by the player with the lower die roll is prevented.
307. Following a player's draw step, he or she may skip the rest of his or her turn and propose a new rule instead. This rule requires a simple majority to pass.
308. Rule 308 is an amendment to rule 203
309. Rule 207 is amended so that the player's with the highest and lowest HP each have to votes. If any players are tied for highest or lowest, they each have one vote. 310. Individual Magic cards may not be named in rules.
311 Starting at the beginning of each player's upkeep that player has 3 minutes to state a proposed rule. If he or she doesn't, he or she loses 5 HP and doesn't get a proposal that turn. A player may state during this period that he or she skips to 3 minutes.
312. Rule 305 is amended so that the fail counter uses counters as defined by the Magic Comprehensive Rules. It may be affected by Magic Cards which affect counters.
313. Rule 209 is appealed.
314. When any player must leave the game, the following are procedures to pause and later resume play. The cards in all public zones and all face down cards must be listed by name, with the zone they were in. Any tapped cards and cards with counters must be noted. Each player must write down the number of cards in his or her hand, and may reveal any number of cards in his or her hand and list them by name as well. When the game is resumed, each player puts the listed cards into their listed zones, then draws cards until they have the listed number of cards in their hand.
315. Rule 207 is appealed.
316. Rule 212 is amended so that the judge is chosen by the high roll of a d6. Any player may be the judge.
317. Rule 208 is amended so that it takes 50 points for the win.
And finally, the current game state:
Current Game State: Between Erik and Robby, 0 Fail Counters
Erik: 9 HP 5 Hand
In play:
2x Rip-Clan Crasher
1x Forest enchanted by Lush Growth
1x Mountain
1x Plains
1x Oblivion Ring removed by Robby's Oblivion Ring
Hand:
1x Naya Charm
1x Woolly Thoctar
Jason: 21 HP 1 Hand
In play:
3x Glen Elendra Liege - 2 tapped, 1 untapped
1x Oona's Gatewarden
1x Paradise Plume - tapped
1x Springleaf Drum
3x Island - tapped
1x Swamp - tapped
Graveyard:
2x Dark Ritual
1x Cerulean Wisp
Hand:
1x Raise Dead
Robby: 1 HP 3 Hand
In play:
1x Mourning Thrull - tapped
2x Nip Gwyllion
2x Hissing Miasma
1x Ankh of Mishra
1x Oblivion Ring (Erik's Oblivion Ring removed)
2x Plains
2x Swamp
Hand:
2x Batwing Brume
1x Mourning Thrull
Questions, comments, suggestions?
EDIT: We've finished this game now. I'll type it up when I get a chance. I won though
If you are checking this thread Binary, can you give us one here?
banner by god child. he'd make you one too, if you weren't so bad at posting.
seconded
Haven't heard anything for over a week. Not sure what else to do here.
;__ ;
the Banned/suspended user thread reveal he was around four days ago...
perhaps PM Yuan Ti? Or one of the other mods for this forum?
We will get a new Nomic subforum for our game, so now it is just waiting for the tech people to get that up.
banner by god child. he'd make you one too, if you weren't so bad at posting.
probably want to send a PM to everyone that expressed interest when everything is set up.
Can we get an official update from a mod? Are we waiting for a sub-forum of our own, and if so, does that mean an admin has to get involved?
banner by god child. he'd make you one too, if you weren't so bad at posting.
Let's keep our fingers crossed that someone who knows will keep us informed.
banner by god child. he'd make you one too, if you weren't so bad at posting.
banner by god child. he'd make you one too, if you weren't so bad at posting.
Thanks Binary!
To start, the initial rules rules we're using, for reference:
102. Initially, rules in the 100s are immutable and rules in the 200s are mutable. Rules subsequently enacted or transmuted (i.e. changed from immutable to mutable or vice versa) may be immutable or mutable regardless of their numbers, and rules in the Initial Set may be transmuted regardless of their numbers.
103. A rule change is any of the following: (1) the enactment, repeal, or amendment of a mutable rule; (2) the enactment, repeal or amendment of an amendment; or (3) the transmutation of an immutable rule into a mutable rule, or vice versa. (Note: this definition implies that, at least initially, all new rules are mutable. Immutable rules, as long as they are immutable, may not be amended or repealed; mutable rules, as long as they are mutable, may be amended or repealed. No rule is absolutely immune to change.)
104. All rule changes proposed in the proper way shall be voted on. They will be adopted if and only if they receive the required number of votes.
105. Every player is an eligible voter. Every eligible voter must participate in every vote on rule changes.
106. Any proposed rule change must be written down before it is voted on. If adopted, it must guide play in the form in which it was voted on.
107. No rule change may take effect earlier than the moment of the completion of the vote that adopted it, even if its wording explicitly states otherwise. No rule change may have retroactive application.
108. Each rule change shall be given a rank order-number (ordinal number) for reference. The numbers shall begin with 301, and each rule change proposed in the proper way shall receive the next successive integer, whether or not the proposal is adopted. if a rule is repealed and then re-enacted, it receives the ordinal number of the proposal to amend or transmute it. If a rule is amended or transmuted, it receives the ordinal number of the proposal to amend or transmute it. If an amendment is amended or repealed, the entire rule of which it is a part receives the ordinal number of the proposal to amend or repeal the amendment.
109. Rule changes that transmute immutable rules into mutable rules may be adopted if and only if the vote is unanimous among the eligible voters.
110. Mutable rules that are inconsistent in any way with some immutable rule (except by proposing to transmute it) are wholly void and without effect. They do not implicitly transmute immutable rules into mutable rules and at the same time amend them. Rules changes that transmute immutable rules into mutable rules will be effective if and only if they explicitly state their transmuting effect.
111. If a rule change as proposed is unclear, ambiguous, paradoxical, or destructive of play, or if it arguably consists of two or more rule changes compounded or if it is an amendment that makes no difference, or if it is of otherwise questionable value, then the other players may suggest amendments or argue against the proposal before the vote. A reasonable amount of time must be allowed for the debate. The proponent decides the final form in which the proposal is to be voted on and decides the time to end debate and vote. The only cure for a bad proposal is prevention: a negative vote.
112. The state of affairs that constitutes winning may not be changed from achieving n points to any other state of affairs. However, the magnitude of n and the means of earning points may be changed, and rules that establish a winner when play cannot continue may be enacted and (while they are mutable) be amended or repealed.
113. A player always has the option to forfeit the game rather than continue to play or incur a game penalty. No penalty worse than losing, in the judgment of the player to incur it, may be imposed.
114. There must always be at least one mutable rule. The adoption of rule changes must never become completely impermissible.
115. Rule changes that affect rules needed to allow or apply rule changes are as permissible as other rule changes. Even rule changes that amend or repeal their own authority are permissible. No rule change or type of move is impermissible solely on account of the self-reference or self-application of a rule.
116. Whatever is not explicitly prohibited or regulated by a rule is permitted and unregulated, with the sole exception of changing the rules, which is permitted only when a rule or set of rules explicitly or implicitly permits it.
201. Players shall alternate in clockwise order, taking one whole turn apiece. Turns may not be skipped or passed, and parts of turns may not be omitted. All players begin with zero points.
202. One turn consists of two parts, in this order: (1) proposing one rule change and having it voted on; and (2) throwing one die once and adding the number of points on its face to one's score.
203. A rule change is adopted if and only if the vote is unanimous among the eligible voters.
204. If and when rule changes can be adopted without unanimity, the players who vote against winning proposals shall receive 10 points apiece.
205. An adopted rule change takes full effect at the moment of the completion of the vote that adopted it.
206. When a proposed rule change is defeated, the player who proposed it loses 10 points.
207. Each player always has exactly one vote.
208. The winner is the first player to achieve 100 (positive) points.
209. At no time may there be more than 25 mutable rules.
210. Players may not conspire or consult on the making of future rule changes unless they are teammates.
211. If two or more mutable rules conflict with one another, or if two or more immutable rules conflict with one another, then the rule with the lower ordinal number takes precedence. If at least one of the rules in conflict explicitly says of itself that it defers to another rule (or type of rule) or takes precedence over another rule (or type of rule), then such provisions shall supersede the numerical method for determining precedence. If two or more rules claim to take precedence over one another or to defer to one another, then the numerical method must again govern.
212. If players disagree about the legality of a move or the interpretation or application of a rule, then the player preceding the one moving is to be the Judge and decide the question. Disagreement, for the purposes of this rule, may be created by the insistence of any player. Such a process is called invoking judgment. When judgment has been invoked, the next player may not begin his or her turn without the consent of the majority of the other players. The Judge's judgment may be overruled only by a unanimous vote of the other players, taken before the next turn is begun. If a Judge's judgment is overruled, the player preceding the Judge in the playing order becomes the new Judge for the question, and so on, except that no player is to be Judge during his or her own turn or during the turn of a teammate.
213. If the rules are changed so that further play is impossible, or if the legality of a move is impossible to determine with finality, or if by the Judge's best reasoning, not overruled, a move appears equally legal and illegal, then the first player who is unable to complete a turn is the winner. This rule takes precedence over every other rule determining the winner.
Next, the rules which we've added thus far:
302. Following Jason's Next turn, a game of Magic: the Gathering (hereafter known as Magic) will begin. The parts of a turn of Nomic occur at the beginning of that player's upkeep. Each player chooses one deck to use in this game.
303. Rule 112 becomes a mutable rule.
304. Each player's life total and score are added together. All references to either score now reference this score, called Hit Points (HP)
305. Whenever a player would lose a game of Magic, that player instead re-enters the game as a new player and one is added to the fail counter. Whenever the fail counter reaches 2, is reset to 0 and each player that didn't cause the fail counter to increase gains 10 HP.
306. If all power's and toughness's' of two creatures, one of which is blocking the other, are equal, the creature's controllers each roll a die until it is not a tie. All combat damage that would be dealt by the creature controlled by the player with the lower die roll is prevented.
307. Following a player's draw step, he or she may skip the rest of his or her turn and propose a new rule instead. This rule requires a simple majority to pass.
308. Rule 308 is an amendment to rule 203
309. Rule 207 is amended so that the player's with the highest and lowest HP each have to votes. If any players are tied for highest or lowest, they each have one vote.
310. Individual Magic cards may not be named in rules.311 Starting at the beginning of each player's upkeep that player has 3 minutes to state a proposed rule. If he or she doesn't, he or she loses 5 HP and doesn't get a proposal that turn. A player may state during this period that he or she skips to 3 minutes.
312. Rule 305 is amended so that the fail counter uses counters as defined by the Magic Comprehensive Rules. It may be affected by Magic Cards which affect counters.
313. Rule 209 is appealed.
314. When any player must leave the game, the following are procedures to pause and later resume play. The cards in all public zones and all face down cards must be listed by name, with the zone they were in. Any tapped cards and cards with counters must be noted. Each player must write down the number of cards in his or her hand, and may reveal any number of cards in his or her hand and list them by name as well. When the game is resumed, each player puts the listed cards into their listed zones, then draws cards until they have the listed number of cards in their hand.
315. Rule 207 is appealed.
316. Rule 212 is amended so that the judge is chosen by the high roll of a d6. Any player may be the judge.
317. Rule 208 is amended so that it takes 50 points for the win.
Erik: 9 HP 5 Hand
In play:
2x Rip-Clan Crasher
1x Forest enchanted by Lush Growth
1x Mountain
1x Plains
1x Oblivion Ring removed by Robby's Oblivion Ring
Hand:
1x Naya Charm
1x Woolly Thoctar
Jason: 21 HP 1 Hand
In play:
3x Glen Elendra Liege - 2 tapped, 1 untapped
1x Oona's Gatewarden
1x Paradise Plume - tapped
1x Springleaf Drum
3x Island - tapped
1x Swamp - tapped
Graveyard:
2x Dark Ritual
1x Cerulean Wisp
Hand:
1x Raise Dead
Robby: 1 HP 3 Hand
In play:
1x Mourning Thrull - tapped
2x Nip Gwyllion
2x Hissing Miasma
1x Ankh of Mishra
1x Oblivion Ring (Erik's Oblivion Ring removed)
2x Plains
2x Swamp
Hand:
2x Batwing Brume
1x Mourning Thrull
Questions, comments, suggestions?
EDIT: We've finished this game now. I'll type it up when I get a chance. I won though