That's a good point.
But with that in mind, would a 2 point swing really be needed for each missed vote? Just giving everyone a point for voting should be enough to encourage minimal participation.
The point swing doesn't really matter to me, so no penalty would be fine. I just think +1 point per vote is a maximum.
Anybody who misses two consecutive votes will be getting a PM asking them to either step up participation or consider dropping in favor of a later nomic. As of right now, that's 7 people (I'm not counting Belgareth as he did submit his proposal in time.)
Anybody who misses two consecutive votes will be getting a PM asking them to either step up participation or consider dropping in favor of a later nomic. As of right now, that's 7 people (I'm not counting Belgareth as he did submit his proposal in time.)
This seems fair. I wonder though, will it be in future initial rule sets, or is this a meta-rule?
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banner by god child. he'd make you one too, if you weren't so bad at posting.
This seems fair. I wonder though, will it be in future initial rule sets, or is this a meta-rule?
It's not a meta-rule... yet. I'm hoping with some prodding that everybody either participates or voluntarily drops out. I don't want to have to boot people but some parts of this game just don't work if people aren't voting.
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I am no longer on MTGS staff, so please don't contact me asking me to do staff things. :|
I think replacements would be a valid option, especially before everyone takes their first turn, keeping the replacements in the same location in the order as their predecessor started in. I'm pretty sure there was enough interest to get 3-4 other players.
I think replacements would be a valid option, especially before everyone takes their first turn, keeping the replacements in the same location in the order as their predecessor started in. I'm pretty sure there was enough interest to get 3-4 other players.
I think that given the larger-than-expected starting size of Nomic #1 I won't administratively be setting up a replacement system. It is of course open to player proposal.
As a result of the wave of PMs I just sent out we have had two people voluntarily drop and one person commit to being more active, so that's promising.
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I am no longer on MTGS staff, so please don't contact me asking me to do staff things. :|
I know Binary just said this, but it's worth repeating: Pretty much (within limits of the forum rules), the rules and gameplay of each individual Nomic game is within complete control of the players. If you want to open up your specific game to replacements or additional players, you only need to pass the rules to allow it.
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If you're town and I'm mafia, you've already lost. You just don't know it yet.
I know Binary just said this, but it's worth repeating: Pretty much (within limits of the forum rules), the rules and gameplay of each individual Nomic game is within complete control of the players. If you want to open up your specific game to replacements or additional players, you only need to pass the rules to allow it.
But that will take a while, both to form such a proposal, get support for it, pass it, and then replace the players. I was saying that, as it is essentially still pregame (only three votes so far, no points gained or lost yet for most people) that players could be replaced as if the replacements were in the game the whole time.
But that will take a while, both to form such a proposal, get support for it, pass it, and then replace the players. I was saying that, as it is essentially still pregame (only three votes so far, no points gained or lost yet for most people) that players could be replaced as if the replacements were in the game the whole time.
Given that, with the original rules set and 30 players, it could take as long as two full calendar months to get through the first round of proposals, I'm thinking a slightly smaller group is preferable. Anybody who didn't get in the first Nomic and wants to play will probably be able to get in YuanTi's.
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I am no longer on MTGS staff, so please don't contact me asking me to do staff things. :|
I doubt it will honestly take anything like that long to get through everyone. Most people are not going to actually take up 24 hours just thinking of a proposal, and I tend to think that rules are going to be made to speed up the process considerably anyway.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
Did I miss something where the voting was explained for nomic? I'm not sure what to make of the discussion of voting here. Presumably we're trying to add to the short list of
rules to make things easier and more effective as a streamlining of the nomic process.
But that process is not entirely clear. Is nomic meant to have a winner? And is there a turn order or how does it basically work? I'm pretty sure the answer is that all of those things are decided in-game, but the faq doesn't speak to this point, and it should.
I propose that we clarify our purpose here for the moment. There are the unalterable protect-the-forum rules mentioned in the sticky. And there are setups that provide a basic structure to the game that simply allows for a voting system and/or time elapsing. We should clarify that and call it something, like a nomic skeleton. Most games would start with the nomic skeleton rules in place, if just for ease of implimentation. And thirdly there are going to be popular and various setups that start with a larger list of rules which are more focused and fleshed-out.
That gives us three levels of rules
1)the unchangeable rules that exist to make the game mtgs-permissable.
2)the skeleton rules that allow for a basic framework
3)theme sets of rules.
I'm of the opinion that most games should start with only the first two to allow a true level of freedom on the part of the players to write their own destinies.
I'm of the opinion that most games should start with only the first two to allow a true level of freedom on the part of the players to write their own destinies.
Isn't that how it works now: only a basic set of rules outlining voting procedures, for the most part? What rules in particular do you feel are inhibiting players from going their own way?
Isn't that how it works now: only a basic set of rules outlining voting procedures, for the most part? What rules in particular do you feel are inhibiting players from going their own way?
I have a feeling that the moderators will take the opportunity at the start of the game to introduce rules of the third kind, which will mean most games will have limited freedom. But the way I see this game working and thriving is for the moderator to really disappear, so to speak, and letting the game be as self-determined as possible.
On another note, I still don't really get what has been proposed so far in terms of how voting works.
I have a feeling that the moderators will take the opportunity at the start of the game to introduce rules of the third kind, which will mean most games will have limited freedom. But the way I see this game working and thriving is for the moderator to really disappear, so to speak, and letting the game be as self-determined as possible.
Personally, I think a couple of theme rules would be interesting for other games. It's like writing (at least for me): if a teacher tells you to write something about any topic, you just write what's natural to you, and it comes out the same every time. If the teacher forces you to write about a farm, however, you have to actually think about what you want to happen, and often times I find it leads to greater creativity and fun, because you have to adapt, and use new things you never thought of.
I also don't think there will be too many games this early, so its a bit premature to be worrying about moderator abuse.
On another note, I still don't really get what has been proposed so far in terms of how voting works.
In Nomic in general, or in Nomic 1, you don't understand the rules proposed so far?
I have a feeling that the moderators will take the opportunity at the start of the game to introduce rules of the third kind, which will mean most games will have limited freedom. But the way I see this game working and thriving is for the moderator to really disappear, so to speak, and letting the game be as self-determined as possible.
So far the moderators have had no interaction aside from rule clarification, and clerical duties like closing threads once voting is complete.
The way you describe the game as it should be, is the way we are playing it. I personally do not see why you feel the mods will add a third set of rules to future nomics, there just is not anything to suggest it.
Maybe you should read ALL the threads in the Nomic forums, including the Nomic #1 sub-forum. Everything you take issue with is addressed.
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banner by god child. he'd make you one too, if you weren't so bad at posting.
I didn't know there was a game going, actually. The voting discussion earlier in this thread:
A - what was the conclusion of how the game should generally be run
B - was that discussion actually about the first game or the game in general
and C - when does a game end/ when do new games begin? (specifically, are we allowed to start games ourselves, without a subforum?)
So far the moderators have had no interaction aside from rule clarification, and clerical duties like closing threads once voting is complete.
The way you describe the game as it should be, is the way we are playing it. I personally do not see why you feel the mods will add a third set of rules to future nomics, there just is not anything to suggest it.
Maybe you should read ALL the threads in the Nomic forums, including the Nomic #1 sub-forum. Everything you take issue with is addressed.
While threads are a great way to make things happen if you're in on it, they're really inefficient to gleam conclusions from after the fact. If there are answers, they belong in a preliminary FAQ.
I didn't know there was a game going, actually. The voting discussion earlier in this thread:
Most of this thread is actually discussing Nomic 1, so the discussion/votes on proposals continues in there.
A - what was the conclusion of how the game should generally be run
Conclusions are decided by a vote on proposals, and so far we have a turn skipping rule and a rule making the number of people needed to pass equal to half the players voting instead of half the players. I can probably guess at some of the upcoming proposals, but until they are voted on affirmatively, no one has concluded that is how the game should be run.
B - was that discussion actually about the first game or the game in general
Again, about the first game, although it generally applies to the current skeleton ruleset. Any discussion about game 1 will probably be relevant to game 2 if it starts with the same or similar rules.
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and C - when does a game end/ when do new games begin? (specifically, are we allowed to start games ourselves, without a subforum?)
Takes a while to finish (someone has to reach 100 points with most everyone else trying to keep them from reaching 100 points), and Yuan is starting one soon. You'll have to ask Binary or Yuan if you want to start one yourself, but probably a no for now.
While threads are a great way to make things happen if you're in on it, they're really inefficient to gleam conclusions from after the fact. If there are answers, they belong in a preliminary FAQ.
We could probably start collaboratively making one, but the game has just started. There's not much to base a FAQ on yet, nor much experience for having a solid answer.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
The problem with a FAQ for this game is that it will never be relevent to the overall game.
The whole point of the game is to change the rules, what's a FAQ going to answer?
Answers for the basic initial ruleset, standard voting and proposing procedure, mutable and immutable rules, etc with caveats to read all the rules of a game before playing in it. Similar to mafia (although it is quite a bit more standardized), where they discuss basic roles and alignments, but I can probably name quite a few recent games that have thrown much of the FAQ out of the window (Cold War comes to mind, most specialties have different stuff).
The problem with a FAQ for this game is that it will never be relevent to the overall game.
The whole point of the game is to change the rules, what's a FAQ going to answer?
Even if the answer to the question is "there is no predetermined answer," a FAQ is still needed to address the issues that will arise. Sure, you don't want the game to be too formalized or for the FAQ to incline people to certian types of games/setups, but I think there may be some traction to the idea of a standard voting method. Also, descrptions of popular setups and how to start with some basic advice for what "noob mistakes" look like could arise along the way.
Okay, but a little study will tell you that, unlike, say, mafia, let alone any game with rules that are actually set in stone, the whole concept of a Nomic is fairly new to the world. Especially considering how much variation is possible, it would be very difficult to judge what are good strategies to start with, and once you get past the first round of changes, the game is likely to be literally unrecognizable from any other game ever played.
If you want to review how to behave under the original ruleset, that's great, but that's really about as far as you can go, IMO.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
One thing I'd like to bring to the attention of all the players in Nomic #1 is that it's actually a very unusual game when a player wins through collecting points. It will almost certainly be a paradox or an alternate win condition that is the culprit. Passing all these laws about how to add/remove points is great and all, but the point-win condition is always going to be one of the first rounds of rules to be repealed/amended.
It will most likely go down like this: people realize that a person is going to get <x> points in the next couple turns. Next rule needs to either repeal the point total to win or amend it to a different score.
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If you're town and I'm mafia, you've already lost. You just don't know it yet.
For shorter, more "interesting" to the reader rule sets (these games were themed with specific rules for the formats for the rules), check out: http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/frc/
For a general description, and links to many games (be warned, the rule set is generally very large), check out http://www.nomic.net/
For just some general and interesting background info, just check out the wikipedia article on Nomic
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If you're town and I'm mafia, you've already lost. You just don't know it yet.
Personally, I love normal games much more than theme games. Plus, if people really want to make theirs a theme game, it's perfectly within their right to.
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If you're town and I'm mafia, you've already lost. You just don't know it yet.
The point swing doesn't really matter to me, so no penalty would be fine. I just think +1 point per vote is a maximum.
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This seems fair. I wonder though, will it be in future initial rule sets, or is this a meta-rule?
banner by god child. he'd make you one too, if you weren't so bad at posting.
It's not a meta-rule... yet. I'm hoping with some prodding that everybody either participates or voluntarily drops out. I don't want to have to boot people but some parts of this game just don't work if people aren't voting.
Salvation Mafia Clan
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I think that given the larger-than-expected starting size of Nomic #1 I won't administratively be setting up a replacement system. It is of course open to player proposal.
As a result of the wave of PMs I just sent out we have had two people voluntarily drop and one person commit to being more active, so that's promising.
But that will take a while, both to form such a proposal, get support for it, pass it, and then replace the players. I was saying that, as it is essentially still pregame (only three votes so far, no points gained or lost yet for most people) that players could be replaced as if the replacements were in the game the whole time.
Salvation Mafia Clan
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last updated 03/23/11
Given that, with the original rules set and 30 players, it could take as long as two full calendar months to get through the first round of proposals, I'm thinking a slightly smaller group is preferable. Anybody who didn't get in the first Nomic and wants to play will probably be able to get in YuanTi's.
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rules to make things easier and more effective as a streamlining of the nomic process.
But that process is not entirely clear. Is nomic meant to have a winner? And is there a turn order or how does it basically work? I'm pretty sure the answer is that all of those things are decided in-game, but the faq doesn't speak to this point, and it should.
I propose that we clarify our purpose here for the moment. There are the unalterable protect-the-forum rules mentioned in the sticky. And there are setups that provide a basic structure to the game that simply allows for a voting system and/or time elapsing. We should clarify that and call it something, like a nomic skeleton. Most games would start with the nomic skeleton rules in place, if just for ease of implimentation. And thirdly there are going to be popular and various setups that start with a larger list of rules which are more focused and fleshed-out.
That gives us three levels of rules
1)the unchangeable rules that exist to make the game mtgs-permissable.
2)the skeleton rules that allow for a basic framework
3)theme sets of rules.
I'm of the opinion that most games should start with only the first two to allow a true level of freedom on the part of the players to write their own destinies.
Isn't that how it works now: only a basic set of rules outlining voting procedures, for the most part? What rules in particular do you feel are inhibiting players from going their own way?
Salvation Mafia Clan
Mafia Stats
last updated 03/23/11
I have a feeling that the moderators will take the opportunity at the start of the game to introduce rules of the third kind, which will mean most games will have limited freedom. But the way I see this game working and thriving is for the moderator to really disappear, so to speak, and letting the game be as self-determined as possible.
On another note, I still don't really get what has been proposed so far in terms of how voting works.
I also don't think there will be too many games this early, so its a bit premature to be worrying about moderator abuse.
In Nomic in general, or in Nomic 1, you don't understand the rules proposed so far?
Salvation Mafia Clan
Mafia Stats
last updated 03/23/11
So far the moderators have had no interaction aside from rule clarification, and clerical duties like closing threads once voting is complete.
The way you describe the game as it should be, is the way we are playing it. I personally do not see why you feel the mods will add a third set of rules to future nomics, there just is not anything to suggest it.
Maybe you should read ALL the threads in the Nomic forums, including the Nomic #1 sub-forum. Everything you take issue with is addressed.
banner by god child. he'd make you one too, if you weren't so bad at posting.
A - what was the conclusion of how the game should generally be run
B - was that discussion actually about the first game or the game in general
and C - when does a game end/ when do new games begin? (specifically, are we allowed to start games ourselves, without a subforum?)
While threads are a great way to make things happen if you're in on it, they're really inefficient to gleam conclusions from after the fact. If there are answers, they belong in a preliminary FAQ.
Most of this thread is actually discussing Nomic 1, so the discussion/votes on proposals continues in there.
Conclusions are decided by a vote on proposals, and so far we have a turn skipping rule and a rule making the number of people needed to pass equal to half the players voting instead of half the players. I can probably guess at some of the upcoming proposals, but until they are voted on affirmatively, no one has concluded that is how the game should be run.
Again, about the first game, although it generally applies to the current skeleton ruleset. Any discussion about game 1 will probably be relevant to game 2 if it starts with the same or similar rules.
Takes a while to finish (someone has to reach 100 points with most everyone else trying to keep them from reaching 100 points), and Yuan is starting one soon. You'll have to ask Binary or Yuan if you want to start one yourself, but probably a no for now.
We could probably start collaboratively making one, but the game has just started. There's not much to base a FAQ on yet, nor much experience for having a solid answer.
Salvation Mafia Clan
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The whole point of the game is to change the rules, what's a FAQ going to answer?
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Answers for the basic initial ruleset, standard voting and proposing procedure, mutable and immutable rules, etc with caveats to read all the rules of a game before playing in it. Similar to mafia (although it is quite a bit more standardized), where they discuss basic roles and alignments, but I can probably name quite a few recent games that have thrown much of the FAQ out of the window (Cold War comes to mind, most specialties have different stuff).
Salvation Mafia Clan
Mafia Stats
last updated 03/23/11
Even if the answer to the question is "there is no predetermined answer," a FAQ is still needed to address the issues that will arise. Sure, you don't want the game to be too formalized or for the FAQ to incline people to certian types of games/setups, but I think there may be some traction to the idea of a standard voting method. Also, descrptions of popular setups and how to start with some basic advice for what "noob mistakes" look like could arise along the way.
If you want to review how to behave under the original ruleset, that's great, but that's really about as far as you can go, IMO.
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It will most likely go down like this: people realize that a person is going to get <x> points in the next couple turns. Next rule needs to either repeal the point total to win or amend it to a different score.
atseal, what would be some classic nomic games which would be good to read?
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For a general description, and links to many games (be warned, the rule set is generally very large), check out http://www.nomic.net/
For just some general and interesting background info, just check out the wikipedia article on Nomic