I currently play the controllish version of the deck, but I might switch to straight combo. I've had too many instances where I leave mana up for a counter instead of trying to combo off and the deck I'm playing against just attack and plays a spell I wouldn't want to counter anyways. In these situations I Time Walk myself. In addition, I end up always shuffling away the counters, especially Mana Leak, in lieu of a better, more combo-oriented spell. I'll have to wait and see whether I'm correct, more testing is required.:)
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Standard: UW UW Pike
Mtgo Pauper: U Tempo
Mtgo Block: RW Aggro
I'm 14, shout-outs to all other young magic players out there!
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Fiend Hunter is not a good answer to a Titan.... red will Shock it.
Well I didn't get much testing in last night but I did get some good experience playing 5cc with Cruel Ultimatum. For reference I played this (I don't have all the cards I need yet)
22 Blue
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Mana Leak
4 Time Warp
4 Into the Roil
2 Call to Mind
22 Land
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Halimar Depths
10 Island
6 Mountain
Sideboard
4 Double Negative (For Jund and Combo, really not sure on this card)
4 Splinter Twin (Combo)
4 Pestermite (Combo)
3 Valcanic Fallout (Fae,elves,rdw,ww)
For some odd reason I'm having trouble rounding up bluffs
Anyway, I started the game with something like
(Island, Ponder, Preordain, Mana Leak, Pyro Ascension, Lightning Bolt, Into the Roil)
I'm new to the extended version of this deck so I decided to keep as I was on the play with two ways to dig, seemed fine for finding land #2. I played Ponder first (which I think is better than playing preordain first but not sure), then stumbled on land for a few turns while he played vivids and reflecting pools. He was obviously leaving up counter magic, then esper charming at end of turn drawing cards.
I figured I had to bate out some counters so I started shooting him with kicked burst lightnings and bolts at EOT. He was ignoring my direct damage and plugging along with his card advantage so I got him down to 9 pretty easily. At some point I knew I had to actually stick an ascension to win so I setup for a turn where I would play through counter spells. I loaded up with two PA's and a leak figuring he had cryptic. He bit and countered the first PA with cryptic, then when I played the second one he had Negate. I should've waited one more turn to have leak mana up but somehow had a read on him as not having negate. dumb
Eventually he played two Runed Halo's for lightning bolt and burst lightning completely stopping me from hitting him. I had to end of turn Into the Roil the Halo naming bolt. My turn I bolted him down to 3 with me at 11. On his turn he Cruel Ultimatum'd me to 6 discarding my hand and him going up to 8. He then replayed the Halo for bolt. A turn or two later I'm looking at a double dragon which I Into the Roiled the token then bursted on my turn. He didn't do anything for several turns then dropped wurmcoil engine. But while he was doing nothing i was setting up my hand for a one turn shot at winning. He wasn't running discard to dismantle my hand and already used all of his esper charms. I assumed he had two more Cryptic commands but didn't know what else.
Finally I had a hand of PA, Manamorphose, Mana Leak, Bolt, Time Warp, Call to Mind, Into the Roil. So at his end of turn I Into the Roiled the Halo set to Bolt which he didn't respond to. On my turn I played Ascension and no response. Time warp. nothing. Manamorphose. Nothing. Now I have active ascension and he isn't doing anything. So I Call to Mind the Time Warp and Bolt. End my turn and start the next turn. Bolt you twice for 12. I win.
So to put it in perspective, I survived no second land for several turns, Cruel Ultimatum, Two Halo's on my only two damage spells...twice, Double dragon, Wurm Coil engine, 3 Cryptic Commands, 4 Esper charms, and Negate with a suboptimal build. Yea, this deck rocks!
I do plan on changing some things though. The version I ran had problems. I really wished I had cryptic command instead of Into the Roil so that's a swap. I liked having all four warps. Call to Mind bailed me out on a long game but didn't feel very powerful until very late in the game. I need to find some bluffs. The deck wants 23 lands, not 22. But I think the 1 extra land should be a man land. Gargoyle Castle looks pretty good because it doesn't die to bolt, doesn't enter the battlefield tapped, flies for faerie protection, and is colorless damage. I kept finding during the game that I wish I could get damage through somehow.
So this is my new list
21 Blue
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Mana Leak
4 Time Warp
3 Cryptic Command
2 Call to Mind
Going the combo route, could a 4/2 split or 3/3 of spell pierce and mana leak be played? If you don't bother with opponents creatures, and just use the spell pierce to protect an ascension while using ponder/preordain to dig/smooth draws, could this be viable?
And just to be sure, as I haven't ever played this deck, you can only go infinite turns when using time warp in tandem with call to mind correct, otherwise you net just an extra turn for each time warp?
I realized that this was made into an official thread - I'm going to try and update my original post to make it into more of a primer for the deck. I've posted a sample-deck list as well.
@whidye: I really like the deck list you have posted on the first page. From my brief experience with the extended version of this deck, it looks pretty spot on.
I have just a few notes though. First, is the 4 reflecting pools. It seems like we run such a low land count that the possibility of having a one lander opener is pretty high. It seems like Reflecting Pool just compounds the problem by adding four "non-color" lands in the deck. They seem better in the mid to late game where it can help cast a cryptic command. I'm not against the idea of pools but 2 seems like safer number.
As for Halimar Depths. I like it if you run shuffle effects. Four Scalding Tarns isn't enough to make them worth while. The way I've seen them as useful is to play it, put the card you want on top, next turn drop a fetch land and shuffle the crap away or See Beyond which shuffles too. In this deck the CIPT part of it seems like to much of a liability.
I still think this deck wants one man land. Sometimes they'll just memoricide the kill out of the deck or not be doing anything playing defense with counterspells. That one land can save you by winning the game. I know this goes against what I was saying above about non-color land in a land tight deck, but one Gargoyle Castle can do so much for this deck. If you ran all colored lands in this deck with one colorless then I think its fine. But if the mana base becomes 4 bluffs, 4 pools and 2 Gargoyle Castle then the number of mulligans is going to shoot through the roof.
I'm also really on the fence with spell pierce. Being able to play spells with counter backup is good but is it really necessary to have a limited 1cc over a more versatile 2cc? The problem cards I think of that can ruin a PA player's day are Esper charm, Qasali Pride Mage, Maelstrom Pulse, and Hexmage. Sure there are plenty of other hate spells but these are probably the most prevalent and main deckable. Spell Pierce does nothing against half those cards.
I can see the argument of burning those creatures before playing PA, then Spell Pierce and Cryptic them after. That's a fine strategy for keeping PA safe. If for some reason they drop the turn two pridemage or hexmage then you shoot it with burst and move on. If you play PA, leave Spell Pierce mana up so they can't just pulse it off a bloodbraid elf. What's your experience with Spell Pierce over Leak?
Thanks. I just read through the thread and ammaglamated the most popular cards (Karsten style). I think Pools are tech that just haven't been uncovered yet; the only land they do not work well with are OTHER pools (with pool and bluffs you can activate the bluffs for either RR or UU). And yes, I also do not like the halimar depths.
Spell Pierce I think is a very meta call; and leak may be better as I indicated in "card selection". I also like leak, but I put in pierce so that I can more often T2 ponder and have pierce up.
Interesting with the gargoyle castle... I am unsure. Castle especially seems slow...
I'll certainly be playing it. and if you doubt the usefulness of this spell.... well, good luck! lol. You'll be on the receiving end of it soon enough, when your Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker gets turned into an elephant.
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I will update the first post. In the past few days I have been playing this deck on MTGO; and have gone down to 1 Time Warp; I just really like manamorphose over it - as it is "essentially" an extra turn. In its place I have added three see beyond.
I don't know about jace's ingenuity - but for those interested it appears to have taken the place of call to mind (and see beyond has taken time warp).
I will update the first post. In the past few days I have been playing this deck on MTGO; and have gone down to 1 Time Warp; I just really like manamorphose over it - as it is "essentially" an extra turn. In its place I have added three see beyond.
I don't know about jace's ingenuity - but for those interested it appears to have taken the place of call to mind (and see beyond has taken time warp).
I really don't understand either of these points of view, so some explanations would be helpful. Warp is 5: untap all your lands and draw a card (and even better with an active Ascension). Manamorphose on an active Ascension is 2: add 4 mana and draw 2. Ingenuity strikes me as very bad in this sort of deck; if you want a spell to cast on the oppo's turn, Cryptic seems like it does more to help you Not Lose. See Beyond is a nice draw spell but I think a better sorcery-speed blue draw spell is... our friend Jace 1.0. He draws more cards over time and he makes your Time Warps even better. Occasionally he also sucks up some damage from a creature attack, which is fine.
I know that at first glance this list may seem very odd, but I've been having a blast with it. The Pyretic Ritual works well with both the Staggershock (landing a Staggershock on turn 2 vs. Elves is very hard for them to recover from) as well as Jace (t2 Ritual -> Manamorph for blue, draw, drop Jace, draw again). Jace makes a blind Time Warp (ie., lacking Call to Mind or active Pyro, just a basic "untap and draw" warp) a LOT better and gives you a lot more ability to keep the combo from running out of gas. Once you start going off, it's much cheaper and quicker to kill with Staggershocks than with Burst Lightnings; since you're going to be taking all the turns anyway, Staggershock might as well be a splashable Flame Javelin.
The board is a work in construction, but will definitely include some quantity of Cryptic Commands (mostly as fogs; I find the triple-blue cost prohibitive for maindeck use), some Spell PierceGuttural Responses to help vs. counter magic, and an Into the Roil in case someone tries to get cute with a Leyline of Sanctity or Runed Halos. Ethersworn Canonist backed up by counter magic could be a serious issue and I'm looking for ideas to combat that. Also, Spell Pierce Guttural Response does not guard against Spellstutter Sprite, so I'm looking for help on the Fae front (but it's not like that surprised me). Currently trying to get a feel for how prevalent Bituminous Blast is in Jund lists... if I see a lot of 3-of's then Double Negative might be worth boarding, otherwise Flashfreeze might make the cut. I also need to formulate a plan vs. Summoning Trap into Iona or Emrakul. I'm thinking of siding in Twincasts and my own singleton Emrakul to equal or top them. If Vampires finds its way into metagame relevance I might need Essence Scatters for their Vampire Hexmages.
Opinions would be greatly appreciated.
Edit: Guttural probably way better than Spell Pierce in this deck. Though that could depend on what sort of hate cards are being aimed at the Pyro.
dispel might be wayyyyy better than guttural response.
on a more general, i haven't tested enough 1.x to bring insight. but last time that deck was T2 legal, call to mind were king. You can grab a win from nowhere, never worry about the opponent life total (throwing burns to their critters without holding back), have a different sideboard plan (mine was 7 burns out for 7 more counterspell against any none aggro deck)
I would not play too many time warp though as cryptic fog mode could be more or less the same.
Scapeshift combo MD is pretty interesting looking with the switch to PA coming out of the SB, and I suppose you could run it the opposite way maybe? dunno, thought it was cool though so enjoy.
You are correct with the time warp/manamorphose, but you have not looked at the turn that you are casting spells. Manamorphose lets you get it active fast and use a lot of mana in the early turns. The problem I have with time warp is that it is cast T5 (at the earliest) and if you don't have an active ascension does not do a lot for you; whereas manamorphose will immediately cycle and leave your mana open.
Each has its place, but I think you should reduce time warps and increase (ADD) cryptic commands.
Also, your list.... it must be budget. Why do you run necropolis? Why did you decide no cryptics MD? I don't like pyretic either - it doesn't give enough boost to warrant its inclusion in my mind.
You are correct with the time warp/manamorphose, but you have not looked at the turn that you are casting spells. Manamorphose lets you get it active fast and use a lot of mana in the early turns. The problem I have with time warp is that it is cast T5 (at the earliest) and if you don't have an active ascension does not do a lot for you; whereas manamorphose will immediately cycle and leave your mana open.
Well, actually, I have cast quite a few Time Warps on t4... might want to take another gander at those Pyretics... that's one reason they're in there.
Each has its place, but I think you should reduce time warps and increase (ADD) cryptic commands.
Problem I have is that vs. Faeries, I can't hope to beat them with countermagic. This doesn't strike me as a deck that can fight their inevitable machine of damage and counterspells. My general hope is to hate out their Cryptics with Gutturals / Dispels and get Pyro online. Then they can't counter all the copies of things, I suppose. If I'm still alive by them. >_<
Also, your list.... it must be budget. Why do you run necropolis? Why did you decide no cryptics MD? I don't like pyretic either - it doesn't give enough boost to warrant its inclusion in my mind.
I've considered Pool but I need lands that either do something t1 or set up mana = UR available t2. Any land that doesn't serve that purpose (which Pool does not) seems sketchy to me. Necropolis is a better Vivid in this deck, and it typically comes down on a turn when I wasn't doing much anyway. Bluffs could be better though, so I'll do some testing with them replacing the Necros.
The advantage of the Pyretics is helping with easy Pyro setup early on; hitting a pair of them can be very useful. It also can set up some broken plays with Manamorphose (as I pointed out above), and lets me frequently Staggershock against Elves on turn 2. I keep running into Elves decks and that play sort of... destroys them. So I like it. I'll readily agree that despite all this, Pyretic is the worst card in the list. Maybe if the Bluffs help the fixing sufficiently I'll try the Cryptics in place of them MD. I mostly bring Cryptics in vs. White Weenie because I can't slow their offense enough with burn, and on the off chance they board in Canonists against me
I will take your advice on the Warps and consider going down to 3 of them... I do tend to choke up on them a bit and can always regrow them with Call to Mind.
real metagame question here : (in a vaccum, i would fit them in the deck)
are cascade buff worth their non-basic land type ?
I mean, sure it helps a lot playing cryptic command, but they have some drawbacks (keep in mind that most version play really few lands) :
1/ does not add mana turn 1. (all spells are colored)
2/ are worthless in multiples as long as you only have them (2 of them is not a keepable hand)
3/ you can't go T2 preordain keep R for bolt (in case you need to bluff it or to play the bolt at instant speed)
4/ they are non basic. (fulminator mage, ruinblaster goblin ?, tectonic edge ? and so on)
Everyone knows that good luck and good game are such insincere terms that any man who does not connect his right hook with the offender's jaw on the very utterance of such a phrase is no man I would consider as such.
Has anyone considered trapmaker's snare + 2of archive trap? 1 Snare kills with an active pyromancers, and everyone searches decks nowadays.
I agree with the above poster that it's very dangerous to be playing cards that don't do anything until you are winning. I will however consider running Archive Traps in my sideboard for my local tournaments - there's a guy playing RG Valakut Scapeshift (minus Omen) and milling him 26 has the potential to turn off Scapeshift as a must-counter threat. Too bad this strategy isn't reliable for the more popular Prismatic Omen Wargate decks. But that match-up seems to be relatively good anyway.
I haven't tested sideboarded games yet, but I'm about to - Does anyone know what to take out when you board in the Pestermite combo? I'm assuming Warps and Manamorphose?
I personally board out ascensions time warps and call to minds(assuming u are playing two warps and two call to minds) Simply because you are transforming into another deck and ascension is no longer ur game plan. And i would highly advise against boarding out manamorphose as is that card is is the best card in the deck.
All though i would entertain the arguement otherwise
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Woah! Sideboard out the Ascensions?! All of them? Is it crazy enough to work?
I did not expect that answer - so why do you keep in Manamorphose if you side out the Ascensions? Seems like all it would do is muddle up your mulligans. It also can protect your top decks from Thoughtseize...but at the same time denies you information.
Anybody have a working plan on how to beat 4cc? Game one has been great but I'm 3-7 in sideboarded games.
lol yeah i know i'm radical i know! As ascensions are much weaker in game 2's when they have boarded out there removal and brought in the enchantment/graveyard hate. And i dont like being dead to hate cards.
And as far as why i keep in manamorphose is i guess how i approach the deck. To me all i'm trying to do is find my combo and protect that and manamorphose does an amazing job of doing that! like nothing feels better than manamorphosing into ur mana leak while drawing another one or drawing a combo piece or a cryptic command. Its a free card that digs you one deeper and gives your mana back. I feel like manamorphose is the 9-12th ponder and pre-ordain(while MUCH worse in that aspect but very different).
Just my 2 cents. I'm more than willing to hear the opposing argument as is i'm just another mage trying to understand this deck that much better.
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I know, I know, I know....Burning Inquiry (BI) sucks. No big argument here.....but....BI into dream salvage is a massive swing. Turn one ponder, turn two manamorphose then PA, turn three Burning Inquiry into Dream Salvage, ponder and you've gone through 1/3 of your deck. BI drops cards in your yard which helps trigger PA faster. The only thing you need to do is make sure to stick your PA first.
Another funny thing BI does is it makes your opponent uneasy. They don't know if they should counter the BI because they'll lose their counter spell or if they should just hope it doesn't go away. It also gives you information on their hand and deck. If they discard two counter spells of BI then you probably have a clear path to play what you want. If the throw something odd to the yard then you at least have a clue what's up on their side.
I put 2 Dream Salvage in because it sucks anytime outside of Burning Inquiry so yes it's situational but powerful. When you play Dream Salvage it's an ancestral recall or better. This deck runs nearly all 1 casters so mulligans are nearly not existent. 1 lander openers are fine.
This is exactly the type of deck I would glaze over in a post but if you're looking for something a little different and powerful, give it a try. This thing does stupid stuff in a blink of an eye. I've put games away by turn 4. It digs so far so fast that PA triggers are not a problem.
Ridiculous interaction #12... With PA active, BInquiry swapping 6 cards to the grave, Dream salvage to draw 12! Just try not to deck yourself before going infinite on turns
Call to Mind is worth it in this deck because you can grab back stuff that flipped through on BInquiry. It's sort of like an extension of your hand at that point. BI'ing a bunch with c2mind gives you a 20+ hand instantly.
I'm messing around with Jace Beleran and Volcanic Fallout in the main but haven't settled on anything yet.
Over lunch I played "BI Curious" splashing black against the new Ooze and oz deck.
Game one: He plays shaman turn two, devoted druid turn three discards vengevine, plays Necrotic ooze and bird of paradise or something. GG.....
......except I won!
Yea, turns out infinite turns trumps creatures. I pondered, manamorphosed into PA, then BInquiry, Dream Salvage, burst shaman. Then I went infinite with Warp/C2Mind on turn 5.
Game two: I don't have a good sideboard for this deck yet. Pestermite/Splinter Twin looks fine but I haven't picked up the cards yet. Anyway, I was just running some jank like memoricide, brittle effigy, pyroclasm, and Spell Pierce. I decided to bring in memoricide because I figure he's bringing acidic slimes in. I mulligan and keep a hand with memoricide. Turn four I play it naming Acidic Slime and whiff. He brought wispmare evoke creature in. Note to self, screw memoricide! He promptly beats me down with vengevine and finks.
-yes I attribute that loss to sideboarding, not the deck.
Game three: I take memoricide out for pyroclasms and brittle effigy, which wasn't good either. I mulligan to 6 on the play as I have a fist full of burn and one island. My 6 were: 4 fetch, burst, and a brittle effigy. Still a bad hand but I figured with 20 lands in the deck and four fetches in my hand I would draw all gas. Plus the two cards I had in hand were good for taking out early problem creatures. So I play turn one effigy. He plays shaman which I burst. We play draw go a little, then he plays finks, vengevine, shaman, birds and I can't draw enough gas to stop him. Sometimes you just draw crap and don't get there. I should've mulled to 5 and hoped for ponder/preordain.
-Again, losing mostly because I didn't have the sideboard to fight this battle.
So my quick take away from playing this match was I need to develop a solid sideboard because the main deck is fantastic in game 1.
Standard:
UW UW Pike
Mtgo Pauper:
U Tempo
Mtgo Block:
RW Aggro
I'm 14, shout-outs to all other young magic players out there!
Quotes:
22 Blue
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Mana Leak
4 Time Warp
4 Into the Roil
2 Call to Mind
16 Red
4 Manamorphose
4 Pyromancer's Ascension
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Burst Ligthning
22 Land
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Halimar Depths
10 Island
6 Mountain
Sideboard
4 Double Negative (For Jund and Combo, really not sure on this card)
4 Splinter Twin (Combo)
4 Pestermite (Combo)
3 Valcanic Fallout (Fae,elves,rdw,ww)
For some odd reason I'm having trouble rounding up bluffs
Anyway, I started the game with something like
(Island, Ponder, Preordain, Mana Leak, Pyro Ascension, Lightning Bolt, Into the Roil)
I'm new to the extended version of this deck so I decided to keep as I was on the play with two ways to dig, seemed fine for finding land #2. I played Ponder first (which I think is better than playing preordain first but not sure), then stumbled on land for a few turns while he played vivids and reflecting pools. He was obviously leaving up counter magic, then esper charming at end of turn drawing cards.
I figured I had to bate out some counters so I started shooting him with kicked burst lightnings and bolts at EOT. He was ignoring my direct damage and plugging along with his card advantage so I got him down to 9 pretty easily. At some point I knew I had to actually stick an ascension to win so I setup for a turn where I would play through counter spells. I loaded up with two PA's and a leak figuring he had cryptic. He bit and countered the first PA with cryptic, then when I played the second one he had Negate. I should've waited one more turn to have leak mana up but somehow had a read on him as not having negate. dumb
Eventually he played two Runed Halo's for lightning bolt and burst lightning completely stopping me from hitting him. I had to end of turn Into the Roil the Halo naming bolt. My turn I bolted him down to 3 with me at 11. On his turn he Cruel Ultimatum'd me to 6 discarding my hand and him going up to 8. He then replayed the Halo for bolt. A turn or two later I'm looking at a double dragon which I Into the Roiled the token then bursted on my turn. He didn't do anything for several turns then dropped wurmcoil engine. But while he was doing nothing i was setting up my hand for a one turn shot at winning. He wasn't running discard to dismantle my hand and already used all of his esper charms. I assumed he had two more Cryptic commands but didn't know what else.
Finally I had a hand of PA, Manamorphose, Mana Leak, Bolt, Time Warp, Call to Mind, Into the Roil. So at his end of turn I Into the Roiled the Halo set to Bolt which he didn't respond to. On my turn I played Ascension and no response. Time warp. nothing. Manamorphose. Nothing. Now I have active ascension and he isn't doing anything. So I Call to Mind the Time Warp and Bolt. End my turn and start the next turn. Bolt you twice for 12. I win.
So to put it in perspective, I survived no second land for several turns, Cruel Ultimatum, Two Halo's on my only two damage spells...twice, Double dragon, Wurm Coil engine, 3 Cryptic Commands, 4 Esper charms, and Negate with a suboptimal build. Yea, this deck rocks!
I do plan on changing some things though. The version I ran had problems. I really wished I had cryptic command instead of Into the Roil so that's a swap. I liked having all four warps. Call to Mind bailed me out on a long game but didn't feel very powerful until very late in the game. I need to find some bluffs. The deck wants 23 lands, not 22. But I think the 1 extra land should be a man land. Gargoyle Castle looks pretty good because it doesn't die to bolt, doesn't enter the battlefield tapped, flies for faerie protection, and is colorless damage. I kept finding during the game that I wish I could get damage through somehow.
So this is my new list
21 Blue
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Mana Leak
4 Time Warp
3 Cryptic Command
2 Call to Mind
16 Red
4 Manamorphose
4 Pyromancer's Ascension
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Burst Ligthning
23 Land
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Cascade Bluffs
9 Island
5 Mountain
1 Gargoyle Castle
Sideboard
3 Double Negative (For Jund and Combo, really not sure on this card)
4 Splinter Twin (Combo)
4 Pestermite (Combo)
4 Valcanic Fallout (Fae,elves,rdw,ww)
I still don't know about the sideboard selection.
I know this is a long thread but I do have some questions on how other people are playing the deck.
1. When do you play Manamorphose? Do you ever play it turn two then play PA or just sit on it until you can double up or combo out?
2. What are you looking for in your opening hand to keep it? I think you need at least one land and two ponder/preordain effects.
3. Is there a clever series of plays you like that may not be obvious?
And just to be sure, as I haven't ever played this deck, you can only go infinite turns when using time warp in tandem with call to mind correct, otherwise you net just an extra turn for each time warp?
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=9733836#post9733836
I realized that this was made into an official thread - I'm going to try and update my original post to make it into more of a primer for the deck. I've posted a sample-deck list as well.
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I have just a few notes though. First, is the 4 reflecting pools. It seems like we run such a low land count that the possibility of having a one lander opener is pretty high. It seems like Reflecting Pool just compounds the problem by adding four "non-color" lands in the deck. They seem better in the mid to late game where it can help cast a cryptic command. I'm not against the idea of pools but 2 seems like safer number.
As for Halimar Depths. I like it if you run shuffle effects. Four Scalding Tarns isn't enough to make them worth while. The way I've seen them as useful is to play it, put the card you want on top, next turn drop a fetch land and shuffle the crap away or See Beyond which shuffles too. In this deck the CIPT part of it seems like to much of a liability.
I still think this deck wants one man land. Sometimes they'll just memoricide the kill out of the deck or not be doing anything playing defense with counterspells. That one land can save you by winning the game. I know this goes against what I was saying above about non-color land in a land tight deck, but one Gargoyle Castle can do so much for this deck. If you ran all colored lands in this deck with one colorless then I think its fine. But if the mana base becomes 4 bluffs, 4 pools and 2 Gargoyle Castle then the number of mulligans is going to shoot through the roof.
I'm also really on the fence with spell pierce. Being able to play spells with counter backup is good but is it really necessary to have a limited 1cc over a more versatile 2cc? The problem cards I think of that can ruin a PA player's day are Esper charm, Qasali Pride Mage, Maelstrom Pulse, and Hexmage. Sure there are plenty of other hate spells but these are probably the most prevalent and main deckable. Spell Pierce does nothing against half those cards.
I can see the argument of burning those creatures before playing PA, then Spell Pierce and Cryptic them after. That's a fine strategy for keeping PA safe. If for some reason they drop the turn two pridemage or hexmage then you shoot it with burst and move on. If you play PA, leave Spell Pierce mana up so they can't just pulse it off a bloodbraid elf. What's your experience with Spell Pierce over Leak?
Thanks. I just read through the thread and ammaglamated the most popular cards (Karsten style). I think Pools are tech that just haven't been uncovered yet; the only land they do not work well with are OTHER pools (with pool and bluffs you can activate the bluffs for either RR or UU). And yes, I also do not like the halimar depths.
Spell Pierce I think is a very meta call; and leak may be better as I indicated in "card selection". I also like leak, but I put in pierce so that I can more often T2 ponder and have pierce up.
Interesting with the gargoyle castle... I am unsure. Castle especially seems slow...
My Trade Thread!
has anyone tryed maindeckign sweeper? especially EG since it doubles as a wincon
Currently Taking altered art Comissions. www.nf96alters.webs.com
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Main Deck
60 cards
4 Cascade Bluffs
8 Island
6 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
22 lands
0 creatures
4 Burst Lightning
4 Cryptic Command
2 Jace's Ingenuity
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Mana Leak
4 Manamorphose
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Pyromancer Ascension
4 See Beyond
38 other spells
Sideboard
4 Pestermite
3 Spell Pierce
4 Splinter Twin
4 Volcanic Fallout
15 sideboard cards
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/worlds10/decks/teamfinal
sorry if the formatting is weird I just copy pasted it.
so things of note:
No time warp.
No Call to Mind.
Pretty basic land package, no halimar depths or reflecting pools or anything of that nature.
Splinter Twin/Pestermite out of the SB
Discuss!
I don't know about jace's ingenuity - but for those interested it appears to have taken the place of call to mind (and see beyond has taken time warp).
My Trade Thread!
I really don't understand either of these points of view, so some explanations would be helpful. Warp is 5: untap all your lands and draw a card (and even better with an active Ascension). Manamorphose on an active Ascension is 2: add 4 mana and draw 2. Ingenuity strikes me as very bad in this sort of deck; if you want a spell to cast on the oppo's turn, Cryptic seems like it does more to help you Not Lose. See Beyond is a nice draw spell but I think a better sorcery-speed blue draw spell is... our friend Jace 1.0. He draws more cards over time and he makes your Time Warps even better. Occasionally he also sucks up some damage from a creature attack, which is fine.
I'm currently testing:
7x Mountain
4x Island
4x Halimar Depths
4x Scalding Tarn
3x Crumbling Necropolis
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Staggershock
Dig: 11
4x Ponder
4x Preordain
3x Jace Beleren
4x Manamorphose
4x Pyretic Ritual
Engine: 11
4x Pyromancer's Ascension
4x Time Warp
3x Call to Mind
I know that at first glance this list may seem very odd, but I've been having a blast with it. The Pyretic Ritual works well with both the Staggershock (landing a Staggershock on turn 2 vs. Elves is very hard for them to recover from) as well as Jace (t2 Ritual -> Manamorph for blue, draw, drop Jace, draw again). Jace makes a blind Time Warp (ie., lacking Call to Mind or active Pyro, just a basic "untap and draw" warp) a LOT better and gives you a lot more ability to keep the combo from running out of gas. Once you start going off, it's much cheaper and quicker to kill with Staggershocks than with Burst Lightnings; since you're going to be taking all the turns anyway, Staggershock might as well be a splashable Flame Javelin.
The board is a work in construction, but will definitely include some quantity of Cryptic Commands (mostly as fogs; I find the triple-blue cost prohibitive for maindeck use), some
Spell PierceGuttural Responses to help vs. counter magic, and an Into the Roil in case someone tries to get cute with a Leyline of Sanctity or Runed Halos. Ethersworn Canonist backed up by counter magic could be a serious issue and I'm looking for ideas to combat that. Also,Spell PierceGuttural Response does not guard against Spellstutter Sprite, so I'm looking for help on the Fae front (but it's not like that surprised me). Currently trying to get a feel for how prevalent Bituminous Blast is in Jund lists... if I see a lot of 3-of's then Double Negative might be worth boarding, otherwise Flashfreeze might make the cut. I also need to formulate a plan vs. Summoning Trap into Iona or Emrakul. I'm thinking of siding in Twincasts and my own singleton Emrakul to equal or top them. If Vampires finds its way into metagame relevance I might need Essence Scatters for their Vampire Hexmages.Opinions would be greatly appreciated.
Edit: Guttural probably way better than Spell Pierce in this deck. Though that could depend on what sort of hate cards are being aimed at the Pyro.
--Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., who is up in Heaven now. EDH WUBRG Child of Alara WUBRG BGW Karador, Ghost Chieftain BGW RGW Mayael the Anima RGW WUB Sharuum the Hegemon WUB RWU Zedruu the Greathearted RWU
WB Ghost Council of Orzhova WB RG Ulasht, the Hate Seed RG B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B G Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer G *click the general's name to see my list!*
on a more general, i haven't tested enough 1.x to bring insight. but last time that deck was T2 legal, call to mind were king. You can grab a win from nowhere, never worry about the opponent life total (throwing burns to their critters without holding back), have a different sideboard plan (mine was 7 burns out for 7 more counterspell against any none aggro deck)
I would not play too many time warp though as cryptic fog mode could be more or less the same.
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/extended/20736_Innovations_World_Championships_Constructed_PTQs_and_Being_Evil.html
its premium, soo meh, but in it was a cool "PA" list from Gerry T from worlds that went 4-1-1
Maindeck:
Instants
4 Cryptic Command
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Mana Leak
4 Manamorphose
2 Spell Pierce
2 Volcanic Fallout
Sorceries
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Scapeshift
2 See Beyond
Basic Lands
2 Island
8 Mountain
Lands
4 Cascade Bluffs
4 Flooded Grove
1 Halimar Depths
4 Reflecting Pool
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
Sideboard:
2 Ratchet Bomb
3 Pyromancer Ascension
2 Into the Roil
2 Negate
1 Spell Pierce
1 Twisted Image
2 Volcanic Fallout
2 Vendilion Clique
Scapeshift combo MD is pretty interesting looking with the switch to PA coming out of the SB, and I suppose you could run it the opposite way maybe? dunno, thought it was cool though so enjoy.
You are correct with the time warp/manamorphose, but you have not looked at the turn that you are casting spells. Manamorphose lets you get it active fast and use a lot of mana in the early turns. The problem I have with time warp is that it is cast T5 (at the earliest) and if you don't have an active ascension does not do a lot for you; whereas manamorphose will immediately cycle and leave your mana open.
Each has its place, but I think you should reduce time warps and increase (ADD) cryptic commands.
Also, your list.... it must be budget. Why do you run necropolis? Why did you decide no cryptics MD? I don't like pyretic either - it doesn't give enough boost to warrant its inclusion in my mind.
My Trade Thread!
Well, actually, I have cast quite a few Time Warps on t4... might want to take another gander at those Pyretics... that's one reason they're in there.
Problem I have is that vs. Faeries, I can't hope to beat them with countermagic. This doesn't strike me as a deck that can fight their inevitable machine of damage and counterspells. My general hope is to hate out their Cryptics with Gutturals / Dispels and get Pyro online. Then they can't counter all the copies of things, I suppose. If I'm still alive by them. >_<
I've considered Pool but I need lands that either do something t1 or set up mana = UR available t2. Any land that doesn't serve that purpose (which Pool does not) seems sketchy to me. Necropolis is a better Vivid in this deck, and it typically comes down on a turn when I wasn't doing much anyway. Bluffs could be better though, so I'll do some testing with them replacing the Necros.
The advantage of the Pyretics is helping with easy Pyro setup early on; hitting a pair of them can be very useful. It also can set up some broken plays with Manamorphose (as I pointed out above), and lets me frequently Staggershock against Elves on turn 2. I keep running into Elves decks and that play sort of... destroys them. So I like it. I'll readily agree that despite all this, Pyretic is the worst card in the list. Maybe if the Bluffs help the fixing sufficiently I'll try the Cryptics in place of them MD. I mostly bring Cryptics in vs. White Weenie because I can't slow their offense enough with burn, and on the off chance they board in Canonists against me
I will take your advice on the Warps and consider going down to 3 of them... I do tend to choke up on them a bit and can always regrow them with Call to Mind.
Thanks for the advice!
--Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., who is up in Heaven now. EDH WUBRG Child of Alara WUBRG BGW Karador, Ghost Chieftain BGW RGW Mayael the Anima RGW WUB Sharuum the Hegemon WUB RWU Zedruu the Greathearted RWU
WB Ghost Council of Orzhova WB RG Ulasht, the Hate Seed RG B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B G Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer G *click the general's name to see my list!*
are cascade buff worth their non-basic land type ?
I mean, sure it helps a lot playing cryptic command, but they have some drawbacks (keep in mind that most version play really few lands) :
1/ does not add mana turn 1. (all spells are colored)
2/ are worthless in multiples as long as you only have them (2 of them is not a keepable hand)
3/ you can't go T2 preordain keep R for bolt (in case you need to bluff it or to play the bolt at instant speed)
4/ they are non basic. (fulminator mage, ruinblaster goblin ?, tectonic edge ? and so on)
I'd be happy to have some feedback
No thanks! Milling for 13 is a lot, but what's the point? It doesn't:
a) Stop a creature horde.
b) Stop Emrakul (hell, it probably would help them).
c) Counter.
d) Anything relevant.
On top of that, you need an active Ascension. In summary, meh. *echo*
*The point of the deck is to win. If it can't obtain or give you enough time to grab an Ascension, it isn't good enough.
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
I agree with the above poster that it's very dangerous to be playing cards that don't do anything until you are winning. I will however consider running Archive Traps in my sideboard for my local tournaments - there's a guy playing RG Valakut Scapeshift (minus Omen) and milling him 26 has the potential to turn off Scapeshift as a must-counter threat. Too bad this strategy isn't reliable for the more popular Prismatic Omen Wargate decks. But that match-up seems to be relatively good anyway.
All though i would entertain the arguement otherwise
I Plays Teh EDH's
B Kiku, Night's FlowerB
BUSzadek, Lord of SecretsUB
UVendilion CliqueU powered by me and d0su
Standard(it constantly changes)
RUPyro ascensionRU
Extended:
RUManamorphoseisbroken.decUR
Legacy:
WGBgettingjunkyBGW
I did not expect that answer - so why do you keep in Manamorphose if you side out the Ascensions? Seems like all it would do is muddle up your mulligans. It also can protect your top decks from Thoughtseize...but at the same time denies you information.
Anybody have a working plan on how to beat 4cc? Game one has been great but I'm 3-7 in sideboarded games.
And as far as why i keep in manamorphose is i guess how i approach the deck. To me all i'm trying to do is find my combo and protect that and manamorphose does an amazing job of doing that! like nothing feels better than manamorphosing into ur mana leak while drawing another one or drawing a combo piece or a cryptic command. Its a free card that digs you one deeper and gives your mana back. I feel like manamorphose is the 9-12th ponder and pre-ordain(while MUCH worse in that aspect but very different).
Just my 2 cents. I'm more than willing to hear the opposing argument as is i'm just another mage trying to understand this deck that much better.
I Plays Teh EDH's
B Kiku, Night's FlowerB
BUSzadek, Lord of SecretsUB
UVendilion CliqueU powered by me and d0su
Standard(it constantly changes)
RUPyro ascensionRU
Extended:
RUManamorphoseisbroken.decUR
Legacy:
WGBgettingjunkyBGW
BI Curious
20 Red
4 Burning Inquiry
4 Burst Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Pyromancer's Ascension
4 Manamorphose
20 Blue
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
2 Spell Pierce
3 Into the Roil
2 Dream Salvage
2 Call to Mind
3 Time Warp
20 Lands
4 Cascade Bluffs
8 Island
4 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
I know, I know, I know....Burning Inquiry (BI) sucks. No big argument here.....but....BI into dream salvage is a massive swing. Turn one ponder, turn two manamorphose then PA, turn three Burning Inquiry into Dream Salvage, ponder and you've gone through 1/3 of your deck. BI drops cards in your yard which helps trigger PA faster. The only thing you need to do is make sure to stick your PA first.
Another funny thing BI does is it makes your opponent uneasy. They don't know if they should counter the BI because they'll lose their counter spell or if they should just hope it doesn't go away. It also gives you information on their hand and deck. If they discard two counter spells of BI then you probably have a clear path to play what you want. If the throw something odd to the yard then you at least have a clue what's up on their side.
I put 2 Dream Salvage in because it sucks anytime outside of Burning Inquiry so yes it's situational but powerful. When you play Dream Salvage it's an ancestral recall or better. This deck runs nearly all 1 casters so mulligans are nearly not existent. 1 lander openers are fine.
This is exactly the type of deck I would glaze over in a post but if you're looking for something a little different and powerful, give it a try. This thing does stupid stuff in a blink of an eye. I've put games away by turn 4. It digs so far so fast that PA triggers are not a problem.
Ridiculous interaction #12... With PA active, BInquiry swapping 6 cards to the grave, Dream salvage to draw 12! Just try not to deck yourself before going infinite on turns
Call to Mind is worth it in this deck because you can grab back stuff that flipped through on BInquiry. It's sort of like an extension of your hand at that point. BI'ing a bunch with c2mind gives you a 20+ hand instantly.
I'm messing around with Jace Beleran and Volcanic Fallout in the main but haven't settled on anything yet.
Game one: He plays shaman turn two, devoted druid turn three discards vengevine, plays Necrotic ooze and bird of paradise or something. GG.....
......except I won!
Yea, turns out infinite turns trumps creatures. I pondered, manamorphosed into PA, then BInquiry, Dream Salvage, burst shaman. Then I went infinite with Warp/C2Mind on turn 5.
Game two: I don't have a good sideboard for this deck yet. Pestermite/Splinter Twin looks fine but I haven't picked up the cards yet. Anyway, I was just running some jank like memoricide, brittle effigy, pyroclasm, and Spell Pierce. I decided to bring in memoricide because I figure he's bringing acidic slimes in. I mulligan and keep a hand with memoricide. Turn four I play it naming Acidic Slime and whiff. He brought wispmare evoke creature in. Note to self, screw memoricide! He promptly beats me down with vengevine and finks.
-yes I attribute that loss to sideboarding, not the deck.
Game three: I take memoricide out for pyroclasms and brittle effigy, which wasn't good either. I mulligan to 6 on the play as I have a fist full of burn and one island. My 6 were: 4 fetch, burst, and a brittle effigy. Still a bad hand but I figured with 20 lands in the deck and four fetches in my hand I would draw all gas. Plus the two cards I had in hand were good for taking out early problem creatures. So I play turn one effigy. He plays shaman which I burst. We play draw go a little, then he plays finks, vengevine, shaman, birds and I can't draw enough gas to stop him. Sometimes you just draw crap and don't get there. I should've mulled to 5 and hoped for ponder/preordain.
-Again, losing mostly because I didn't have the sideboard to fight this battle.
So my quick take away from playing this match was I need to develop a solid sideboard because the main deck is fantastic in game 1.
First thought at a sideboard is this:
4 Splinter Twin
4 Spell Pierce
3 Volcanic Fallout
Although I would like to do something slightly more original so I'm looking for suggestions.