i really doubt it will happen though. for once, goblinstorm will see heavy play, especially in ptq's and local tournamnets, because, well, cause it's goblins, and less skilled players tendo to play agressive decks a lot more often tha other type of decks, so they'll still be popular.
A deck has to win to be competitive. 90% of the field could be Goblinstorm and that's great. If it doesn't t8 consistantly, it's not going to be stickied and may not even stay in the forum.
If I recall corectly extended rotates at octobers... co that is giving us virtually 2 seasons ahead... BTW there is no sense in thinking of making deck that would rather survive rotation. New editions tend to switch metagames rapidly - and simply if you want to have a really good deck you have to keep up with meta...there is and not going to be a such deck that has a "future" proof.
I was more thinking as far as getting rid of stuff I don't need after this following PTQ season. The cards that are good for extended will be easier to get rid of during the season than othervise
What about Trinket Angel? Trinket Angels is a great deck that has many answers to popular decks like Boros, TEPS, and even Azoritron as well. Plus the Counterbalance+Top=extreme sexiness stuff is pretty good as well.
What about Trinket Angel? Trinket Angels is a great deck that has many answers to popular decks like Boros, TEPS, and even Azoritron as well. Plus the Counterbalance+Top=extreme sexiness stuff is pretty good as well.
The thread is in this forum, but it's current arcing out of the format after being in for only such a short time prevents it from being a format defining deck.
I'd like to suggest that both UB Tog and Heartbeat Combo be removed from from Tier One status as both decks have failed to perform at the level consistant with current Tier One decks. Heartbeat has not made a Top 8 appearence since early to mid November (A total of four in the first two weeks of November, no more since then). UB Tog has only made four Top 8 appearences since the same time period. Looking at their total number of Top 8's since mid November, you can see that both decks have had fewer Top 8's than such rogue decks as GoblinStorm, DragonStorm, and Death Cloud Control.
In addition, UB Tog only made one high appearence at Worlds, and Heartbeat was hardly even seen. Based on this information, I feel that both decks are far too random to be considered Tier One, and thus should be removed from the 'sticked' deck lists.
Secondly, I believe that TEPS has proven itself worthy of being included with the decks at the beginning of this thread, as I believe its high number of Top 8's speaks for itself.
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I'd like to suggest that both UB Tog and Heartbeat Combo be removed from from Tier One status as both decks have failed to perform at the level consistant with current Tier One decks.
Heartbeat is actually still good in this format. It's currently not being played because most PTQ players have ADD and want to play "new decks" especially ones that are easier to handle than Heartbeat. If it doesn't show up anywhere during the week, I'll move it. I was going to move tog a while ago, but didn't want people to go crazy on me. If they do now, I'll point them to your post.
Secondly, I believe that TEPS has proven itself worthy of being included with the decks at the beginning of this thread, as I believe its high number of Top 8's speaks for itself.
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A few people still play Heartbeat (Desire or Nevermind). It's not popular enough to really be considered a "deck to beat," even if it is the best deck, but it's still worth having a simple sentence to explain as well as a stickied thread.
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...the lack of power of Divining Top is similarly obvious.
A few people still play Heartbeat (Desire or Nevermind). It's not popular enough to really be considered a "deck to beat," even if it is the best deck, but it's still worth having a simple sentence to explain as well as a stickied thread.
Taking away the sticky wouldn't mean that the thread was unadmissable. It would still be part of the lower forum, like UB Tog and TNN are now. Quite frankly, if Heartbeat were the best deck, then people would play it regardless of difficulty.
In addition to Heartbeat being dropped to the lower tier, I'd like to suggest that the Aggro-Loam and CAL threads be merged. The decks have basically merged by both playing Terravore (Which CAL didn't) and Cabal Therepy (Which Loam didn't). The are essentially one-in-the-same now.
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In addition to Heartbeat being dropped to the lower tier, I'd like to suggest that the Aggro-Loam and CAL threads be merged. The decks have basically merged by both playing Terravore (Which CAL didn't) and Cabal Therepy (Which Loam didn't). The are essentially one-in-the-same now.
I disagree. CAL doesn't play either Terravore or Devastating Dreams/Thoughts of Ruin, if something plays either of those it's not CAL. CAL wins by using Seismic Assault, or beating down with 2/x's; it's a control deck. Loam wants to destroy lands and then beat face with Werebears, Terravores, and Vinelashers.
karsten said in his article on 1/24/07 that CAL was starting to play terravore and Aggro-loam was playing solitary confinement.
And yet still they're two different decks.
It's entirely possible for Iori to splash in Solitary Confinement if it's playing white. The same is true for CAL because Terravore is a good alternative when your opponent can deal with 2/x's and shut off or deal with Seismic Assault. Both decks put a considerable number of lands into the graveyard, Aggro Loam is more concerned with actually destroying the lands and generating the advantage between your and your opponent's deck by using Terravore and Life from the Loam to eliminate the problems of symmetry in Devastating Dreams/Thoughts of Ruin's effect.
Neither is true. (This is assuming that the second statement is what I think it is, because I had a hard time understanding it).
The forum guidelines state that you have to be able to back up your information. You have failed to do so, but seeing as I don't want people to labour under the misconception that what you said is actually true, I'm going to post a reply.
The problem with TEPS in this meta is that it has severe problems with a little thing called 'hate'. The main reason for this is that TEPS has one gameplan: Generate storm and kill with either a lethal Tendrils, or create enough Goblin tokens to generate inevitability. Any hate aimed at it therefore is much more crippling than it is to HB, which can play multiple roles and can fight through hate relatively easily. If no-one is playing hate, then TEPS is probably the better deck (although even that's disputable). The trouble is that almost every deck has cards that negatively affect TEPS, whether those cards are specifically aimed at it or not. The prevalence of Orim's Chant, blue cards, non-basic LD, other hate cards such as Rule of Law, and artifact hate, and the fact that they hurt TEPS considerably more than they do HB, makes HB a better choice in a meta even slightly resembling those of pretty much every major Extended event thus far.
Yes, TEPS is stronger in a vacuum. Extended is not a vacuum. QED.
People do not always know what the 'best' deck is. I use '' because people have different definitions of 'best'. The generally accepted definition seems to be 'The deck that has the strongest matchups in a given metagame'. As every metagame is different (if only slightly) the label 'best' is misleading at best (lolz pun). See Chapin's article on information cascades for more.
If a deck is truely good, it will be played.
However, I go around and see, but every forum i go to, i see the same few people defending Heartbeat and saying its a good deck.
However, there had not a lot of result to back it up.
Im my metagame, i see 2-3 people playing Heartbeat, but they everytime go 2-4 with it.
I think it should be time Heartbeat fans see the truth and accept the fact Heartbeat got pushed out by BDW and Teps.
Heartbeat has trouble vs BDW for as far as i know.
I also see a few people claiming that Heartbeat is good, but then need a lot of skill. Saying it can win anything.
However, so far, not many Heartbeat got win much. Those people who win with it and say it good deck should post result to show people that it is good. Instead of just saying it.
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Shouldnt use the excuse that Heartbeat is not the "in" thing to justify why it not played.
Heartbeat should be tier 2 and Izzetron should be out of tier 2.
Slide also be out.
Heartbeat has easy matchups against BDW and TEPS. Those are among their best matchups. If you wish to see results I point you to last year's PTQs where the few people who played a good build did very well. So far there have not been enough events to show evidence one way or the other. It did well at the Paris PTQs, which were similar to the current metagame.
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...the lack of power of Divining Top is similarly obvious.
Depends which version you're running. Desire can easily win without using the graveyard. Nevermind can as well, although it's a little more difficult.
HB has a better time against hate because it has more ways to find solutions and has a psuedo-counter (Remand).
HB has more ways to stall against aggro and better solutions.
by your words, i think also that KCI and Sensei Locket is viable.
Both decks get around hate too also. They have same number of ways to get answer.
Pyrite spellbomb, meddling mage, pithing needle, counterbalance, cunning wish, chain of vapor.
Everything possible.
HB is around the same level as KCI and Sensei locket in power level terming.
They make random wins but lose all the time.
Heartbeat has only 4 wishes to deal with MM, and a lot of other stuff. It need to draw wishes. And that is very hard to find sometime too also.
Heartbeat will remain tier-2 deck. Because it never like last time in 2005.
In 2005, i see before heartbeat dominate top8 in ptqs. but now, only random 1 or 2 out of many top8 lists in many Ptq and Gpt.
Teps consistent top8 1-2 every ptq and gpt.
And playing Teps need skill also, it not a pick up and win deck anymore longer, because surprise value gone already also. So playing it need skill also. Not as easy as you all say.
my english not very perfect, i know i may not convince you on HB being tier 2, because you give impossible argument.
You want me to prove that HB is bad, i give example, you will say those people not playing good lists or skill is not as good.
If Pro player play already can still lose, i dont think you will perform any better.
Sensei Locket and KCI are much slower and not nearly as consistent as Heartbeat or TEPS.
Heartbeat has comparative speed to TEPS, but it has better consistency (does not fizzle after it has assembled its combo) and resilience to hate (one Meddling Mage does nothing to stop the deck).
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...the lack of power of Divining Top is similarly obvious.
Sensei Locket and KCI are much slower and not nearly as consistent as Heartbeat or TEPS.
Heartbeat has comparative speed to TEPS, but it has better consistency (does not fizzle after it has assembled its combo) and resilience to hate (one Meddling Mage does nothing to stop the deck).
One Meddling Mage will not stop TPS, either. It will be the same thing as one Meddling Mage VS Heartbeat - A speedbump. TPS can still go off, it just has to kill that one Mage before doing so, same as Heartbeat.
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I don't think you understand. Heartbeat doesn't have to kill the Mage to go off. The correct play and the most common play is to name Cunning Wish with Mage. This doesn't hurt Heartbeat very much compared to the usual Mage on Burning Wish against TEPS, which relies on the Wish quite a bit.
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...the lack of power of Divining Top is similarly obvious.
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A deck has to win to be competitive. 90% of the field could be Goblinstorm and that's great. If it doesn't t8 consistantly, it's not going to be stickied and may not even stay in the forum.
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I was more thinking as far as getting rid of stuff I don't need after this following PTQ season. The cards that are good for extended will be easier to get rid of during the season than othervise
The thread is in this forum, but it's current arcing out of the format after being in for only such a short time prevents it from being a format defining deck.
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Or do you happen to have a link to a few places it placed prominently?
Trinket Angel also tier-1.
Trinket Angel has fallen out of t8'ing for some time now. TEPS no longer holds the "weeks in t4" glory it had when it was first introduced.
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In addition, UB Tog only made one high appearence at Worlds, and Heartbeat was hardly even seen. Based on this information, I feel that both decks are far too random to be considered Tier One, and thus should be removed from the 'sticked' deck lists.
Secondly, I believe that TEPS has proven itself worthy of being included with the decks at the beginning of this thread, as I believe its high number of Top 8's speaks for itself.
Heartbeat is actually still good in this format. It's currently not being played because most PTQ players have ADD and want to play "new decks" especially ones that are easier to handle than Heartbeat. If it doesn't show up anywhere during the week, I'll move it. I was going to move tog a while ago, but didn't want people to go crazy on me. If they do now, I'll point them to your post.
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Must be heartbeat sucks in some way, or else cannot be not played for so long.
It's all because of you who designed the deck call " teps ".
It had proven that teps is much faster, consistant, easier, better and stronger than heartbeat.
That's why it had not been played for so long as everyone else is playing teps which is so much stronger than the heartbeat.
Taking away the sticky wouldn't mean that the thread was unadmissable. It would still be part of the lower forum, like UB Tog and TNN are now. Quite frankly, if Heartbeat were the best deck, then people would play it regardless of difficulty.
In addition to Heartbeat being dropped to the lower tier, I'd like to suggest that the Aggro-Loam and CAL threads be merged. The decks have basically merged by both playing Terravore (Which CAL didn't) and Cabal Therepy (Which Loam didn't). The are essentially one-in-the-same now.
I disagree. CAL doesn't play either Terravore or Devastating Dreams/Thoughts of Ruin, if something plays either of those it's not CAL. CAL wins by using Seismic Assault, or beating down with 2/x's; it's a control deck. Loam wants to destroy lands and then beat face with Werebears, Terravores, and Vinelashers.
And yet still they're two different decks.
It's entirely possible for Iori to splash in Solitary Confinement if it's playing white. The same is true for CAL because Terravore is a good alternative when your opponent can deal with 2/x's and shut off or deal with Seismic Assault. Both decks put a considerable number of lands into the graveyard, Aggro Loam is more concerned with actually destroying the lands and generating the advantage between your and your opponent's deck by using Terravore and Life from the Loam to eliminate the problems of symmetry in Devastating Dreams/Thoughts of Ruin's effect.
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If a deck is truely good, it will be played.
However, I go around and see, but every forum i go to, i see the same few people defending Heartbeat and saying its a good deck.
However, there had not a lot of result to back it up.
Im my metagame, i see 2-3 people playing Heartbeat, but they everytime go 2-4 with it.
I think it should be time Heartbeat fans see the truth and accept the fact Heartbeat got pushed out by BDW and Teps.
Heartbeat has trouble vs BDW for as far as i know.
I also see a few people claiming that Heartbeat is good, but then need a lot of skill. Saying it can win anything.
However, so far, not many Heartbeat got win much. Those people who win with it and say it good deck should post result to show people that it is good. Instead of just saying it.
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Shouldnt use the excuse that Heartbeat is not the "in" thing to justify why it not played.
Heartbeat should be tier 2 and Izzetron should be out of tier 2.
Slide also be out.
People say Heartbeat can deal with stuff like Crypt and Leyline.
However, i think that take at least 1 turn to do.
And Gifts get shut down by Crypt.
May be easy to say Heartbeat resilient to hate, but Heartbeat take some time to find answer to hate. By that time, aggro decks win already.
Teps can also be considered quite resilient if you have Chant and Duress.
Chant is versatile, can be a moment's peace, can be a must counter thing, can stop a Scepter activate, can stop stifles.
by your words, i think also that KCI and Sensei Locket is viable.
Both decks get around hate too also. They have same number of ways to get answer.
Pyrite spellbomb, meddling mage, pithing needle, counterbalance, cunning wish, chain of vapor.
Everything possible.
HB is around the same level as KCI and Sensei locket in power level terming.
They make random wins but lose all the time.
Heartbeat has only 4 wishes to deal with MM, and a lot of other stuff. It need to draw wishes. And that is very hard to find sometime too also.
Heartbeat will remain tier-2 deck. Because it never like last time in 2005.
In 2005, i see before heartbeat dominate top8 in ptqs. but now, only random 1 or 2 out of many top8 lists in many Ptq and Gpt.
Teps consistent top8 1-2 every ptq and gpt.
And playing Teps need skill also, it not a pick up and win deck anymore longer, because surprise value gone already also. So playing it need skill also. Not as easy as you all say.
my english not very perfect, i know i may not convince you on HB being tier 2, because you give impossible argument.
You want me to prove that HB is bad, i give example, you will say those people not playing good lists or skill is not as good.
If Pro player play already can still lose, i dont think you will perform any better.
Heartbeat has comparative speed to TEPS, but it has better consistency (does not fizzle after it has assembled its combo) and resilience to hate (one Meddling Mage does nothing to stop the deck).
One Meddling Mage will not stop TPS, either. It will be the same thing as one Meddling Mage VS Heartbeat - A speedbump. TPS can still go off, it just has to kill that one Mage before doing so, same as Heartbeat.