I agree with Maker, I don't think graveyard removal gets you very far.
Related to this, has anyone tested Infest? I'm not entirely sure if it's worth it, but against Noble Hierarch decks, it can be a pretty nice blowout. However, it somewhat has negative synergy with Scion, Sower or your own creatures.
For comments of RDW... it depends on the draw you have. The matchup was far better in the old extended when Extirpate was still legal, as it was a one mana time walk against RDW that exiled their Unearth stuff.
However the matchup is still winnable if you know how to board right.
That being said, I ought to go into GP Atlanta.
I considered playing Vampire Nighthawks in the board, but decided I didn't want to lose to Stag's in Rds 2-3, since I only had one bye. So I decided to play:
The only problem with this build of Faeries is that it has a really hard time with Naya. I went 1-3 against Naya on the weekend, and that matchup alone probably cost me money on day 2. I was right about the Wall's being good against random stags Rd's 2-3 as they kept me from losing games I should have. Does it even out over the long haul? Maybe. However its pretty clear that something has to change.
So some of the decks in the top tier were running Peppersmoke, which I also considered and decided against. For Naya however, it is better than Agony Warp as it kills their mana guy, which should give you enough time to get going, but since it doesn't kill Fauna Shaman, that is the real problem. Survival of the Fittest is still just as annoying in Extended, even once a turn. If I had to play the GP over again, I would probably start at this build.
The untapped Drowned Catacomb only mattered in one game the entire GP, so I'm gotten to the point where i don't think the extra cipt land is going to hurt.
*prepares to get laughed out of the thread* ...Peace Strider hot new SB tech against Great Sable Stag?
it's also pretty good against mono red... just saying. other dynamite SB cards i'm considering include Sword of Feast and Famine against jund and Earwig Squad against Scapeshift decks
Black Sun's Zenith. In every way, it is perfect. For three mana, you can win the mirror. For four, you just slowed Aggro down to a crawl. For any more, and you just won. I don't think there is any question about it, other than "How many should I run?" I think that one in the MD would be good enough for any random situation that could come up, and maybe one more in the SB.
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"If you don't wear your seatbelt, the police will shoot you in the head."
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Everyone knows that good luck and good game are such insincere terms that any man who does not connect his right hook with the offender's jaw on the very utterance of such a phrase is no man I would consider as such.
Been running well so far. Thoughtseize is much better against Scapeshift decks than IoK. Vendilion Clique as well. Loss of Scions made up for with Peppersmokes. High removal count but the Peppersmokes cycle in the matchups you dont need them. Go for the Throat is awesome enough that you don't need 6 real removal spells any more. Goal is to tweak deck away from Naya and towards Scapeshift without sacrificing too much in the mirror. Same with the SB which is very much in flux but i'll post the one I played my last game with:
Black Sun's Zenith. In every way, it is perfect. For three mana, you can win the mirror. For four, you just slowed Aggro down to a crawl. For any more, and you just won. I don't think there is any question about it, other than "How many should I run?" I think that one in the MD would be good enough for any random situation that could come up, and maybe one more in the SB.
The problem with BSZ is a) it's a sorcery and b) it may not be able to kill giant Knight of the Reliquaries(but our new Go for the Throats should be able to help with that), and c) it kills your Sower of Temptations
I do like the it can kill BBE's and Vengevines though, and am in fact leaning towards it over Consume the Meek with a SB plan that doesn't involve Nighthawks or Sowers. Just like 3 Black Sun Zenith, 2 Wurmcoil Engine (maybe Grave Titan to dodge Deglamer?) and some additional spot removal.
I was under the impression fae had a good match up against RG Valakut, but in the jund thread it was claimed otherwise. I thought I remember a couple articles saying faeries beats RG Valakut. So, how is the Valakut match up (all colors)? What can fae do to improve it if it needs improving? I'm going between playing faeries and jund.
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skeeter eater@ I also was under the impression that fae has a strong game vs valakut.
Im running 2 tec edge md and 2 more in sb (replacing spells as the come in).
I think the U/g build is harder but still in our favour (they can just run out an early omen and win, have better draw and can just ramp up out of manaleak) but on the other hand we also attack from multiple angles. discard, counter magic, land bounce via cryptic (very good card lol)
against the wargate version they are more anti aggro and I would be annoyed if i lost a game to them with a decent hand but be on the look out for wargate as its going to be game breaking if it resolves no matter what it tutors.
tips:
these 3 decks play the same win condition but play out quite deferently so you need to assess which build you are up against asap
t2 bitterblossom may not be the best play as omen in response is rough (im still not sure on this wether you can wait on bb or not will depend on your hand)
[CARD]
consign to dream[/CARD] has gotten alot better in these match ups as it can also be utilised vs jund, naya, elves, rdw as well
Can't the fae player just counter scapeshift, omen, wargate, titan where appropriate? With IoK/Thoughtseize we should be able to snag at least 1. Those seem to be the big things (although I haven't played much against the RG or UG Val decks). Also, tec edge seems like it should be pretty awesome here as well.
Some # of spell pierce in the SB? Or maybe even the land bouncing counter if mana leak/spell piercing is a problem?
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7 removal spells is still a little strong even for the decks not running scion. Id run 3 and 3 at most. and disfigure usually gets the nod over peppersmoke in most builds (even lsv's) his last 8man online he ran 2x grasp (which go for the throat replaces) 2x disfigure and 2 peppersmoke which seems like a good balance. he also runs 2x jace beleren and 1x big jace so drawing into the appropriate removal spell isnt that big of an issue especially when peppersmokes replace themselves
but go for the throat is the best removal spell printed since path probably (apart from it not killing wurmcoil) so this may just boost it to 4 and 3
for those of you not running scion, are your removals spells 4 go for the throat and 3 peppersmoke main ?
I noticed most people don't run it, but I really like Preordain to easier get the card I need. I also like having a better chance at a turn 2 Bitterblossom, however slight it is. I used to run 4 Agony Warp. Probably going with 2 Agony Warp and 2 Go for the Throat now.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
im not sure how preordain makes you get t2 bitterblossom?
either you have a hand with t2 bitterblossom or you have t1 thoughtsieze or you have t1 removal spell vs noble hierarch.deck (wtf hands ru keeping
im not sure how preordain makes you get t2 bitterblossom?
either you have a hand with t2 bitterblossom or you have t1 thoughtsieze or you have t1 removal spell vs noble hierarch.deck (wtf hands ru keeping
It INCREASES the chance of a turn two Bitterblossom, because there are cards in the deck other than Bitterblossom that you are forced to play with to help Bitterblossom. There are situations where you can't get a good enough hand, and Preordain "might help"; Preordain helps you dig three deep (2 Scry, and whatever is under them if they both suck), which means that on turn one you have seen up to 10 of your own cards, and there is a very high chance that one of them will be Bitterblossom.
The blatant problem with this logic is that most people only think about Bitterblossom in the situation. If you are so boned that you need Preordain to get you a Bitterblossom, then you are probably going to lose anyways. In place of Preordain you should be running a constant source of CA like Jace, because if he can't find you Bitterblossom, he at least helps you find creatures and control cards if you need to win an attrition war.
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"If you don't wear your seatbelt, the police will shoot you in the head."
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Everyone knows that good luck and good game are such insincere terms that any man who does not connect his right hook with the offender's jaw on the very utterance of such a phrase is no man I would consider as such.
Just wanted to stop by and share some anti aggro tech that's been absolutely housing people. I've been testing Massacre Wurm in the Wurmcoil Engine slot and I couldn't be more pleased. The rest of the sideboard has been warped around this new game plan. Here's the list:
So instead of running Black Sun's Zenith or other board sweepers I've upped the defensive creature count from 2-3 to 6 (3 Wall of Tanglecord, 3 Vampire Nighthawk) plus 2 Sower of Temptations. A couple extra removal spells because you still need to have an answer for a turn 2 Fauna Shaman. Game plan is to stall/trade damage/race until Massacre Wurm absolutely blows them out. With Wurmcoil Engine you're mainly just trying to survive until you can play it and hope it's enough to take over the game. This plan is more proactive, aggressive, and ultimately more successful, IMHO of course.
Massacre Wurm, like Grave Titan can't be truly appreciated until you've played with or against it. Most people overlook the fact that the opponent continues to lose 2 life every time a creature dies even after the initial Massacre. Massacre Wurm isn't better than Grave Titan, it's different. In a pure control deck I'd still take Grave Titan or Wurmcoil every time, but in an aggro/aggro-control deck where it top your curve and the damage is relevant it is unreal good. I'll be surprised if it doesn't catch on and you don't start seeing it in MODO dailies etc.
The one thing i'll say is it may be the wrong time to be skewing your deck towards aggro with all of Valakuts recent success, but I've maindecked the 5th discard spell and i still have 2 extra counterspells and 3 Tectonic Edges after board. I also have 3 Peppersmokes, 5 discard spells, and Jaces maindeck to try and get an edge in the mirror.
In closing, if you expect your meta to remain anywhere near as aggressive as it was pre-atlanta I definitely recommend you give this a spin.
i dont like pre ordain much because i think it makes u keep bad hands. you think having a turn one or two pre ordain helps sometimes.but i rather not have it and have a decent hand or mulligan
I love that people are starting to understand the logic behind using anything but Preordain. There are multiple cards that you would rather have that produce more tangible results, such as Disfigure or Peppersmoke. Sure, Preordain helps with "bad hands", but it also leads you to keep bad hands.
*As of now, what is the optimum number of Jaces? Is it a 2-1 split, or would all Jace 1.0 be better? I always like the turn two Bitterblossom followed by turn three Jace, since it (in most sitations) led to a better board position even if your opponent blew up the Bitterblossom.
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"If you don't wear your seatbelt, the police will shoot you in the head."
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Everyone knows that good luck and good game are such insincere terms that any man who does not connect his right hook with the offender's jaw on the very utterance of such a phrase is no man I would consider as such.
right now its a 2 1 split for me two little and one big. im playing for removal two of each disfigure gftt and pepper. although im playing only three thoughtseize as discard.
in a meta full of noble hierarch decks and decks that run game defining 2 drop enchantments peppersmoke, disfigure, thoughtsieze and inquisition are the cards you want to be playing t1 and believe me when i say all of these cards help to get bitterblossom more then preordain. even spell pierce is better on t1
Right now I'm running a 2/1 split on Jaces, I might go to 3 little Jace though simply because I hate T4 JTMS in Faeries - I'd much rather pass on that turn and do something on their turn with 4 mana. Drawing it late is nice but seeing it early is pretty dead. I guess 2/1 isn't bad and it works fine for me, but I always feel happy seeing Baby Jace for the reasons Yamakiri described above.
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My Trade Thread | Member of House Dimir, where hopes and dreams become death and corruption. Won't you join us?
Currently playing:
Vintage - Meandeck MUD
Legacy - Death and TaxesW, Team AmericaBUG, GSZ ZooGRW, TES, JunkBGW, Blue MUDU
Extended - BantUGW
Standard - Big RedR, UB ControlBU, Eldrazi GreenG
EDH/Commander - Thrun, the Last TrollG, Gwendolyn Di CorciBUR, Venser, Shaper SavantU
how many v cliques are you guys running ? seems to me that playing three would be the right number, it looks like now is the moment to run more because of the omen deck, discard and v cliques wins that match, the rg omen is what i have been testing against alot, its pretty hard to disrupt it.
how many v cliques are you guys running ? seems to me that playing three would be the right number, it looks like now is the moment to run more because of the omen deck, discard and v cliques wins that match, the rg omen is what i have been testing against alot, its pretty hard to disrupt it.
Clique is really good against other control decks, so I would actually suggest (in a control meta) to run three in the MD and one in the SB, because it is a card that you definitely want to see against Omen. The more control/combo in the format, the more you want to see it.
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"If you don't wear your seatbelt, the police will shoot you in the head."
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Everyone knows that good luck and good game are such insincere terms that any man who does not connect his right hook with the offender's jaw on the very utterance of such a phrase is no man I would consider as such.
Related to this, has anyone tested Infest? I'm not entirely sure if it's worth it, but against Noble Hierarch decks, it can be a pretty nice blowout. However, it somewhat has negative synergy with Scion, Sower or your own creatures.
However the matchup is still winnable if you know how to board right.
That being said, I ought to go into GP Atlanta.
I considered playing Vampire Nighthawks in the board, but decided I didn't want to lose to Stag's in Rds 2-3, since I only had one bye. So I decided to play:
4 Spellstutter Sprite
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Bitterblossom
4 Cryptic Command
3 Mana Leak
2 Disfigure
2 Agony Warp
2 Grasp of Darkness
2 Jace Beleren
1 Inquisition of Koziliek
3 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Drowned Catacomb
4 Secluded Glen
4 Darkslick Shores
2 Sunken Ruins
2 Tectonic Edge
4 Mutavault
4 Island
2 Swamp
2 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Wall of Tanglecord
1 Sower of Temptation
2 Doom Blade
2 Spell Pierce
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Infest
The only problem with this build of Faeries is that it has a really hard time with Naya. I went 1-3 against Naya on the weekend, and that matchup alone probably cost me money on day 2. I was right about the Wall's being good against random stags Rd's 2-3 as they kept me from losing games I should have. Does it even out over the long haul? Maybe. However its pretty clear that something has to change.
So some of the decks in the top tier were running Peppersmoke, which I also considered and decided against. For Naya however, it is better than Agony Warp as it kills their mana guy, which should give you enough time to get going, but since it doesn't kill Fauna Shaman, that is the real problem. Survival of the Fittest is still just as annoying in Extended, even once a turn. If I had to play the GP over again, I would probably start at this build.
4 Spellstutter Sprite
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Bitterblossom
2 Jace Beleren
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Disfigure
2 Grasp of Darkness
3 Mana Leak
4 Cryptic Command
1 Inquisition of Koziliek
4 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Secluded Glen
4 Mutavault
4 Darkslick Shores
2 Sunken Ruins
2 Tectonic Edge
4 Island
2 Swamp
2 Sower of Temptation
3 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Spell Pierce
2 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Doom Blade
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Infest
The untapped Drowned Catacomb only mattered in one game the entire GP, so I'm gotten to the point where i don't think the extra cipt land is going to hurt.
it's also pretty good against mono red... just saying. other dynamite SB cards i'm considering include Sword of Feast and Famine against jund and Earwig Squad against Scapeshift decks
http://thestarkingtonpost.com/articles/-/PTQ_Atlanta_*1st*
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
3 Spellstutter Sprite
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Bitterblossom
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Cryptic Command
3 Mana Leak
4 Thoughtseize
3 Peppersmoke
4 Mutavault
4 Creeping Tarpit
4 Secluded Glen
4 Darkslick Shores
2 Sunken Ruins
4 Island
2 Swamp
2 Tectonic Edge
Been running well so far. Thoughtseize is much better against Scapeshift decks than IoK. Vendilion Clique as well. Loss of Scions made up for with Peppersmokes. High removal count but the Peppersmokes cycle in the matchups you dont need them. Go for the Throat is awesome enough that you don't need 6 real removal spells any more. Goal is to tweak deck away from Naya and towards Scapeshift without sacrificing too much in the mirror. Same with the SB which is very much in flux but i'll post the one I played my last game with:
Its weak to jund but strong against Scapeshift and control. Next PTQ isn't for 3 more weeks so we'll see where we end up.
The problem with BSZ is a) it's a sorcery and b) it may not be able to kill giant Knight of the Reliquaries(but our new Go for the Throats should be able to help with that), and c) it kills your Sower of Temptations
I do like the it can kill BBE's and Vengevines though, and am in fact leaning towards it over Consume the Meek with a SB plan that doesn't involve Nighthawks or Sowers. Just like 3 Black Sun Zenith, 2 Wurmcoil Engine (maybe Grave Titan to dodge Deglamer?) and some additional spot removal.
Im running 2 tec edge md and 2 more in sb (replacing spells as the come in).
I think the U/g build is harder but still in our favour (they can just run out an early omen and win, have better draw and can just ramp up out of manaleak) but on the other hand we also attack from multiple angles. discard, counter magic, land bounce via cryptic (very good card lol)
against the wargate version they are more anti aggro and I would be annoyed if i lost a game to them with a decent hand but be on the look out for wargate as its going to be game breaking if it resolves no matter what it tutors.
tips:
these 3 decks play the same win condition but play out quite deferently so you need to assess which build you are up against asap
t2 bitterblossom may not be the best play as omen in response is rough (im still not sure on this wether you can wait on bb or not will depend on your hand)
[CARD]
consign to dream[/CARD] has gotten alot better in these match ups as it can also be utilised vs jund, naya, elves, rdw as well
Some # of spell pierce in the SB? Or maybe even the land bouncing counter if mana leak/spell piercing is a problem?
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=380755
but go for the throat is the best removal spell printed since path probably (apart from it not killing wurmcoil) so this may just boost it to 4 and 3
I noticed most people don't run it, but I really like Preordain to easier get the card I need. I also like having a better chance at a turn 2 Bitterblossom, however slight it is. I used to run 4 Agony Warp. Probably going with 2 Agony Warp and 2 Go for the Throat now.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)either you have a hand with t2 bitterblossom or you have t1 thoughtsieze or you have t1 removal spell vs noble hierarch.deck (wtf hands ru keeping
It INCREASES the chance of a turn two Bitterblossom, because there are cards in the deck other than Bitterblossom that you are forced to play with to help Bitterblossom. There are situations where you can't get a good enough hand, and Preordain "might help"; Preordain helps you dig three deep (2 Scry, and whatever is under them if they both suck), which means that on turn one you have seen up to 10 of your own cards, and there is a very high chance that one of them will be Bitterblossom.
The blatant problem with this logic is that most people only think about Bitterblossom in the situation. If you are so boned that you need Preordain to get you a Bitterblossom, then you are probably going to lose anyways. In place of Preordain you should be running a constant source of CA like Jace, because if he can't find you Bitterblossom, he at least helps you find creatures and control cards if you need to win an attrition war.
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
4 Mistbind Clique
3 Spellstutter Sprite
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Massacre Wurm
Enchantments:
4 Bitterblossom
Counterspells:
4 Cryptic Command
3 Mana Leak
Discard:
4 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
Removal:
3 Peppersmoke
2 Go for the Throat
1 Disfigure
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Lands:
4 Mutavault
4 Creeping Tarpit
4 Secluded Glen
4 Darkslick Shores
2 Sunken Ruins
4 Island
2 Swamp
2 Tectonic Edge
3 Wall of Tanglecord
3 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Sower of Temptation
2 Massacre Wurm
1 Disfigure
1 Go for the Throat
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Spell Pierce
1 Deprive
So instead of running Black Sun's Zenith or other board sweepers I've upped the defensive creature count from 2-3 to 6 (3 Wall of Tanglecord, 3 Vampire Nighthawk) plus 2 Sower of Temptations. A couple extra removal spells because you still need to have an answer for a turn 2 Fauna Shaman. Game plan is to stall/trade damage/race until Massacre Wurm absolutely blows them out. With Wurmcoil Engine you're mainly just trying to survive until you can play it and hope it's enough to take over the game. This plan is more proactive, aggressive, and ultimately more successful, IMHO of course.
Massacre Wurm, like Grave Titan can't be truly appreciated until you've played with or against it. Most people overlook the fact that the opponent continues to lose 2 life every time a creature dies even after the initial Massacre. Massacre Wurm isn't better than Grave Titan, it's different. In a pure control deck I'd still take Grave Titan or Wurmcoil every time, but in an aggro/aggro-control deck where it top your curve and the damage is relevant it is unreal good. I'll be surprised if it doesn't catch on and you don't start seeing it in MODO dailies etc.
The one thing i'll say is it may be the wrong time to be skewing your deck towards aggro with all of Valakuts recent success, but I've maindecked the 5th discard spell and i still have 2 extra counterspells and 3 Tectonic Edges after board. I also have 3 Peppersmokes, 5 discard spells, and Jaces maindeck to try and get an edge in the mirror.
In closing, if you expect your meta to remain anywhere near as aggressive as it was pre-atlanta I definitely recommend you give this a spin.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=380755
*As of now, what is the optimum number of Jaces? Is it a 2-1 split, or would all Jace 1.0 be better? I always like the turn two Bitterblossom followed by turn three Jace, since it (in most sitations) led to a better board position even if your opponent blew up the Bitterblossom.
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=380755
Currently playing:
Vintage - Meandeck MUD
Legacy - Death and TaxesW, Team AmericaBUG, GSZ ZooGRW, TES, JunkBGW, Blue MUDU
Extended - BantUGW
Standard - Big RedR, UB ControlBU, Eldrazi GreenG
EDH/Commander - Thrun, the Last TrollG, Gwendolyn Di CorciBUR, Venser, Shaper SavantU
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=380755
Clique is really good against other control decks, so I would actually suggest (in a control meta) to run three in the MD and one in the SB, because it is a card that you definitely want to see against Omen. The more control/combo in the format, the more you want to see it.
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.