I'd honestly run 26 land before 24. And Linvala belongs in the sideboard imo, considering there aren't any matchups outside of Naya and Combo Elves you need her active, and usually not until g2 anyway.
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Currently playing:
Venser Control/ Mimic Allies
Valakut Titan Stole My House
Colossus needs to come out, but Linvala actually did great things outside of those two matchups all day. She was a pretty good aggressive flier, especially with Doran out, and she shuts down Putrid Leech and Shaman in Jund, as well as trading with Demigod sometimes. She also blocks Vendilion Clique, which matters quite a bit in several matchups. Furthermore, there's really not a ton of room in the sideboard for her. The Stags are absolutely necessary because you have to pull Doran vs Fae and need other beaters, the Teegs are necessary to stop Day, and Leyline and Forge Tender are needed for RDW and Valakut matchups. You're basically left cutting Zealous Persecution to put her in the board. As is, I'd rather just have her in the maindeck beating down in the air during creature stalls.
I ran 3 pulses in the GP the day before and it was always too many. I'd rather decrease the curve and stick with 24 lands than increase the curve and go to 26.
Colossus needs to come out, but Linvala actually did great things outside of those two matchups all day. She was a pretty good aggressive flier, especially with Doran out, and she shuts down Putrid Leech and Shaman in Jund, as well as trading with Demigod sometimes. She also blocks Vendilion Clique, which matters quite a bit in several matchups. Furthermore, there's really not a ton of room in the sideboard for her. The Stags are absolutely necessary because you have to pull Doran vs Fae and need other beaters, the Teegs are necessary to stop Day, and Leyline and Forge Tender are needed for RDW and Valakut matchups. You're basically left cutting Zealous Persecution to put her in the board. As is, I'd rather just have her in the maindeck beating down in the air during creature stalls.
I ran 3 pulses in the GP the day before and it was always too many. I'd rather decrease the curve and stick with 24 lands than increase the curve and go to 26.
I haven't directly tested the deck, so I'm going to have go to based on your results, and if you say 3 pulses is too much I do believe you (felt that way in old std with Jund).
I'm considering building up Doran, but it'd be the last of my resources for building on MTGO so I'm concerned it might not be the trick, I definitely restored life into Linvala after thinking about her being a 4/4 beatstick, and against Naya that's fairly important, though against Jund she should die fairly quickly or they are doing it wrong.
Couple of things though, why is Zealous Persecution sideboarded? That card is extremely good in almost every matchup I've used it in (played BW tokens for a while). That and this deck feels like it would have a natural mishappened accident against G/W Trap! due to it's ability to cast Emrakul turn 4-5, even through hand disruption and counters from Fae. It's not a huge matchup that pops up around the corner, but still a concern.
What are your major problems with Doran right now? What do you wish the deck could do that it can't? What are your worst matchups?
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Valakut Titan Stole My House
I definitely restored life into Linvala after thinking about her being a 4/4 beatstick, and against Naya that's fairly important, though against Jund she should die fairly quickly or they are doing it wrong.
Jund doesn't actually run that much removal nowadays maindeck, if you look at the successful lists. Most lists have maybe 2 or 3 pulse/terminate, and the 4 bolts. If you play Knights correctly, that means you have 12 creatures that they have 2 or 3 answers to. Linvala is often the least of their worries (especially since they can't tutor up a singleton Shriekmaw or Spitebellows to kill her)
Couple of things though, why is Zealous Persecution sideboarded? That card is extremely good in almost every matchup I've used it in (played BW tokens for a while).
Largely a combination of not enough space in the deck and the fact that its a pretty awful blank against Valakut, which was VERY popular at the PTQ due to its good performance at the GP. I agree its great in many matchups, but it wasn't universally good enough. Depending on the meta I could see it making the cut where the Colossi are coming out, but I think Brave the Elements could be a lot better there. Also its important to remember that Persecution is much better in a token deck where it can mean an additional 5-8 damage than it is in a rock deck where you rarely have more than 3 or 4 creatures out.
That and this deck feels like it would have a natural mishappened accident against G/W Trap! due to it's ability to cast Emrakul turn 4-5, even through hand disruption and counters from Fae. It's not a huge matchup that pops up around the corner, but still a concern.
I have to admit I didn't play this matchup at all in the 18 matches I played on the weekend. Postboard I'd feel pretty good about it with Persecution to keep them from triggering Windbrisk, but it would definitely come down to draws.
Also, just for the record, Trap can cast Emrakul turn 3. Sick.
What are your major problems with Doran right now? What do you wish the deck could do that it can't?
- I wish it recovered better from DoJ. This version recovers a LOT better than the Amsterdam version did, because you don't empty your hand of creatures like that one did, so you can play a big dude and swing with it repeatedly until they have to Day to kill one or two guys, instead of overcomitting with lynxes, loam lions, and harbingers. Still, sometimes you can get blown out. I tried Reveillarks and Sun Titans, and it just really screwed with the curve too much. I think 2 Baneslayers at the top is really all you need, and that helps keeps the mulligans down. In the end, the strategy that won me both matches against the DoJ decks in the PTQ was Gaddock Teeg+ disruption to land him.
- I wish it didn't do so much damage to itself. Going down to 2 bosks and potentially down to 3 Thoughtseize may help that. A third baneslayer or a Behemoth Sledge may help that as well, I'm not entirely sure what the answer is. I lost a game at some point where I did 9 to myself and they did 11. That's not good magic.
- R/G Valakut seems to be my worst matchup. R/G Valakut is basically a one card combo, and we don't kill them reliably enough before they get to 7 lands and can scapeshift. We have tools to kill Omen, but there's absolutely nothing we can do if they pull scapeshift off the top of the deck and cast it with 7 lands. Postboard they've usually got Obstinate Baloth which buys them a lot of time. Almost every game I won against them involved Leyline of Sanctity (which I prefer over Halo solely based on its additional utility vs RDW)
- RDW is also pretty bad. Thoughtseize is pretty awful vs RDW, and I take a lot of damage from my fetches and bosk, and the deck just isn't as fast as it was in Amsterdam. Postboard they're almost certain to bring in Leyline of Punishment, which can stop Baneslayer or Forge-Tender from helping us much. I only win game 1 against RDW when I get lucky, and games 2 and 3 are still pretty hard.
- U/W Control comes down entirely to the skill of the pilots involved. I feel like I beat the U/W players who I am better than, and I lose to the U/W players who are better than me. Its all about playing smart, not getting blown out by overextending, and having answers to their lifegain creatures (saw Baneslayer and Wurmcoil in U/W at different times this weekend). Its easy to see U/W as an awful matchup, but postboard I actually really like our chances, especially if I end up maindecking Brave the Elements.
- I lost 4 straight games (2 matches in a row) to Mythic in the Grand Prix, but all 4 of them were after I rippped their hand to pieces with Thoughtseize and Sculler, and they topdecked a Sovereigns for the win. At that point I didn't have Pridemages maindeck and only 3 Paths, so I just didn't have the instant speed responses to solve those kind of problems. I feel like more testing is necessary, but the Mythic matchup could be quite manageable.
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The question you didn't ask, what are your best matchups?
Honestly, I know my PTQ results don't bear this out, but trust me when I tell you that testing does, and I just made misplays which influenced the PTQ results. This deck demolishes Naya, and does a pretty darn good job against Jund as well. In general, creature decks have problems with this, and Shaman decks are reliably unprepared for Bojuka Bog.
I also haven't played it against Spagnolo's new U/R counterburn deck, but I think that matchup comes down to whether I land a Doran or not, since all of his attacking creatures have 1 toughness, and he'll have problems killing me with only 1 toughness creatures in hand. Expect that deck to get popular though, it had a good showing at the GP and looks like a ton of fun.
I would just like to mention that Order of Whiteclay may be the recursion droids we are looking for. The 3 mana activation is typically worth it vs the higher costs of admission to the alternatives, and it's often a 4/4 - sometimes as a surprise as ppl tend not to realize it's an untap ability.
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Some have said embermages lack subtlety. You know what? THEY'RE ALL DEAD!! :mad1:
Jund doesn't actually run that much removal nowadays maindeck, if you look at the successful lists. Most lists have maybe 2 or 3 pulse/terminate, and the 4 bolts. If you play Knights correctly, that means you have 12 creatures that they have 2 or 3 answers to. Linvala is often the least of their worries (especially since they can't tutor up a singleton Shriekmaw or Spitebellows to kill her)
jund has to run 4 pulses they just cut down on the terminates etc.. pulse is good for them cause it not only removes creatures but can remove bitterblossom, prismatic omen, planeswalkers, etc...its good utility and i dont want to say never a dead card but has very few matches where it is useless.
anyways im going to re-sleave up doran and do the aggro list and have a stronger discard package to help protect. im really liking aggro these days and well here we go...
also a big question should i remake this on Magic Online as well?
-chias
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I am petitioning for the removal of people who whine about mythic rarity. Sig this if you agree; they should just get over it. The mythic rarity serves to protect the price of rares that due to record printings are extremely lower than what they were during say, Ravnica block. Get a job.
I feel like you need 1, Knight can go get it when necessary. For some reason, people never expect Knight to tutor up tec edge and kill their manland when they swing with it. The deck could really use more, but the manabase can't support it.
For decks already running the basic Stoneforge package, how do people feel about Feast and Famine? It seems pretty good if you can bait a counter Main Phase 1, make them discard a card, then actually lay down a threat MP2. Card Advantage plus a constant source of fuel seems pretty good for a deck like this, but I'm undecided.
I really don't understand how people are gravitating towards the Rock builds, when Rock is one of the worst builds against Fae.
The Zoo list lets you run Scattershot Archers in the SB, which just hoses fae, and it's fast enough to get board presence before they can set up bitterblossom + spellstutter shenanigans. The Zoo list also punishes the hell out of Jund if they aren't keeping a removal-heavy hand, and just trounces the fauna/demigod builds.
Wargate is the only iffy matchup, simply because you're reliant on sticking a pridemage to answer the omen.
So far Rock has been 50/50 in testing for me against Fae. I went 1-1 against Fae in the GP, and 1-0 against it in the PTQ. You just have to play smart, and side out Doran if you expect Wall of Tanglecord. Zealous Persecution is huge in the matchup.
The zoo build is basically a slower aggro deck than Naya, without the card advantage generated by Bloodbraid/Shaman/Vengevine. Plus, it folds to Wall of Omens, with all the little creatures that can't get past it once Doran is out. It also has far fewer ways to interact with other decks, which is the strength of the rock deck. All the disruption helps your few threats win.
Plus, when you're trying to win off of 1 or 2 big dudes on the board, you're not nearly as dead to Day of Judgment as you are when you're trying to win with 4 Loam Lions.
I say all of this because I tested the zoo version extensively, and eventually threw it away entirely, playing several different control decks before coming back to Rock.
That's how it looks now, with the addition MB I would like to make some space for a couple of Thrulls and 3 Green Sun Zenith.
My gaming group tells me that I should stick to the zoo version, but I didn't like it (it loses against Big Jace so easily).
Thank you in advance!
I agree that the zoo version is ineffective at this point in time (see my post above). A few notes on your build, in random order.
Whats in the Deck
- Even with 6 manadorks, I feel like you need 24 land.
- Maindeck Memoricide seems very awkward. There are so many decks where it just doesn't do anything, and remember, if it doesn't absolutely wreck your opponent's plan, you're just spending 4 mana to not affect the board and fall behind.
- Ratchet Bomb seems pretty bad for this deck. What exactly are you blowing up that you're happy with that you can't get with something else? Maybe for the elf matchup I could see it, but in general I'd rather have a few Maelstrom Pulse in that slot, otherwise you're just blowing up your own stuff.
- Skinrender doesn't really fit maindeck right now either, too many decks that he does nothing against. He's good at killing Kitchen finks, but not much else against U/W, he only kills Vendilion and Scion against Faeries, he does absolutely nothing against most Valakut builds. Remember, it's not a May ability, he has to do it, so you cant really use him if your opponent has no critters.
- Wall of Omens doesn't really do all that much either. Your best way to stop an oncoming rush is to use Doran and KotR to just be bigger than them. Finks does a good job of this too. Wall will just sit there not helping you win. Don't get drawn in by its synergy with Doran, it just doesn't help.
Whats Missing
- My testing against a pretty wide field shows that you need at least 4, if not 5 instant speed removal spells. I couldn't find a 5th I was happy with, but I'm running 4 Paths now and I feel they are essential. Mythic in particular causes this deck big problems because of their ability to just topdeck the win.
- Where's Knight of the Reliquary? He's huge in this deck, you get to run a lot of fetches and make him enormous, plus this is the perfect deck to use the toolbox. Sejiri Steppe is always good, but 1 Bojuka Bog is maindeckable right now as well. Plus, a singleton Tec Edge is good when you can tutor it up right as you need it.
So in summary, I'd do the following (loose guidelines, not specific cuts)
-Wall of Omens
-Skinrender
-Ratchet Bomb
-Memoricide
+KotR
+1 PtE
+Maelstrom Pulse
+1 Land (and the Knight tutor package)
Also, I'd consider finding room for Tidehollow Sculler, as he's pretty amazing in this deck.
That's my .02, hope it helps.
EDIT: Also, unlike many other decks, the manabase on this deck is very specific, and requires precise tweaking based on what you're running. Every time you make a change to the maindeck, re-evaluate your manabase. I've found that I never want more than 2 Murmuring Bosk, and that the Filters are more a problem than a help most of the time, but that I want my full complement of Razorverge Thickets. Thats based on the desire to regularly be able to play T1 Birds into T2 Doran and ALSO be able to play T1 Thoughtseize into T2 Sculler into T3 Doran. When you figure out what your dream hands are, go back and make sure your manabase is set up to provide it.
The maelstrom Pulses will go right in, as well as the KoR, I just have a thing for the Skinrender ability.
I packed in the Ratchet Bombs, due to the metagame in my country (lots of RDW and Fae) against RDW when I hit Baneslayer is too late since I'm a bolt away.
I put out the Tidehollow scullers, since the first was pretty good, but after that they got countered of bolted away (2 thoughness is not enough).
The next PTQ in my country is next February 19th, so MBS will be legal and I really want to include the Green Sun Zenith, my possible build will be like this (after taking into account your considerations)
3 Doran, the siege tower
3 Knights of the Reliquary
3 Baneslayer Angel
3 Birds of Paradise
3 Noble Hierarch
3 Kitchen Finks
2 Thrun, the last Troll
-----------------
20 Creatures
3 Thoughtseize
2 Profane Command
2 Green Sun Zenith
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
4 Path to Exile
2 Maeltrom Pulse
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
-------------------
16 Spells
bloodbraid, primeval titan, day of judgement, cryptic command, jace, scapeshift, mistbind
do you want me to keep going? elspeth, sovereigns, wurmcoil engine, spectral procession etc
Figured I would share this, I've been working on a Doran list for quite a while, but UW control and scapeshift were causing me problems. In Particular, DOJ and post board finks/baloth gave each deck enough to beat me (RG scapeshift, that's the version that gets the most play)
This list "splashes" blue, so it is doran/dark bant, but Doran provides a critical big, cheap beater.
3 thoughtseize
2 path to exile
4 birds of paradise
3 noble hierarch
3 putrid leech
2 qasali pridemage
1 maelstrom pulse
2 bant charm
3 doran, the siege tower
4 knight of the reliquary
3 rhox war monk
2 Elspath, knight errant
1 chameleon colossus
2 rafiq of the many
1 baneslayer angel
Sideboard
1 bant charm
1 behemoth sledge(this might get taken out, only in vs fae and not needed)
1 deathmark
1 thoughtseize
1 path to exile
2 jace, the mind sculptor
3 great sable stag (not necessary, so these slots are open. I'm crushing fae without them in my hands) I just haven't figured out what to put here yet
1 glen elendra archmage
1 chameleon colossus
1 qasali pridemage
2 vendillion clique (would be maindeck, but don't work with doran. I may include a third)
So this deck basically punishes decks that can't block with every efficient beater in the format, and Rafiq (especially on turn 3) allows you to go over the top of almost any deck. I was running Jace maindeck, but I would just win before I could cast him in most matchups, he's really only needed vs 5cc and Uw control.
This biggest change over standard rock decks is bant charm, and Rhox War Monk. Rhox is just an efficient lifegain beater, and makes it very hard to race, especially when he gets exalted. he can also just create a lot of unprofitable attacks by sitting around blocking if necessary. Bant Charm is the all-star. I needed a way to keep my removal count high, and have an answer to the annoying cryptic time walk if I didn't get a thoughtseize. Bant Charm was the answer to both.
The mana base took the longest to work on, it is actually very good, and the deck mulligans exceptionally well. You have (with Doran or CC) 13 sources of G turn 1, and except stirring wildwood, steppe and bog, every land can come into play untapped.
vs UW/5cc/whatever, clique and thoughtseize come in for Doran, Rhox comes out and Jace comes in, along with another Bant charm and glen elendra archmage, who is also good vs scapeshift. The matchups become highly draw dependant, but are significantly improved post board.
I'm curious what people think, and I'm looking for sideboard suggestions (particularly for the online metagame). I've done a lot of testing in 8/2 man's so if anyone is curious, I can tell you how a particular matchup plays out, pre and post board. In case anyone is wondering, the deathmark is in vs Elves, they are huge online, probably due to cost, and I needed even more cheap spot removal vs them, since this deck can't play sweepers.
Dark Bant is really good. Good to see others interested in that deck still. I actually went that route before as well, because of the problems control gives regular doran. Yeah the mana base is hard to construct for that deck. Also Wilt-Leaf Liege becomes better there: war monk, skuller, rafiq, and knight, and finks all get the double boost. You might want to try to get cryptic command in. If you resolve it, you usually win in dark bant lol.
Pretty much have lots of padding against sweeps, and cards with built in CA generation. Thought about using leech instead of sculler. Not sure how this build will do against more aggro decks, but I'd expect it to have favorable matches against the other decks.
I'd run sword of B/M and sword and F/F if I had any.
Dark Bant is really good. Good to see others interested in that deck still. I actually went that route before as well, because of the problems control gives regular doran. Yeah the mana base is hard to construct for that deck. Also Wilt-Leaf Liege becomes better there: war monk, skuller, rafiq, and knight, and finks all get the double boost. You might want to try to get cryptic command in. If you resolve it, you usually win in dark bant lol.
Pretty much have lots of padding against sweeps, and cards with built in CA generation. Thought about using leech instead of sculler. Not sure how this build will do against more aggro decks, but I'd expect it to have favorable matches against the other decks.
I'd run sword of B/M and sword and F/F if I had any.
hey this looks pretty cool...um hmm id rather have the sculler vs the leech. he causes so many problems for the opponent and he usually deals with the sculler b4 dealing with other things cause they want their card back so hes good tempo i suppose. also i do want to try out that new sword as well!
-chias
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I am petitioning for the removal of people who whine about mythic rarity. Sig this if you agree; they should just get over it. The mythic rarity serves to protect the price of rares that due to record printings are extremely lower than what they were during say, Ravnica block. Get a job.
I went 3-1 (losing to a UWG Scapeshift when he topdecked omen into KOTR to wipe my board, the turn before lethal.) I beat the same 75 card mirror 2-0 the previous match, this deck is heavily favored. I would suggest a fourth pridemage and fourth thoughtseize either MD or board. Sower has also been underwhelming)
2 Baneslayer Angel
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Chameleon Colossus
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Rafiq of the Many
3 Rhox War Monk
1 Vendilion Clique
25 creatures 2 Bant Charm
2 Cryptic Command
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Nameless Inversion
2 Path to Exile
2 Thoughtseize
12 other spells
Sideboard
1 Bant Charm
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
3 Great Sable Stag
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Path to Exile
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Tectonic Edge
2 Thoughtseize
1 Vendilion Clique
15 sideboard cards
I've actually made some changes since, Faeries is such a good matchup 3 GSS are unnecessary. Sower is just for elves, I switched it and now just play more spot removal and 1 flashfreeze for GR valakut/RDW. Stillmoon Cavalier is my new tech, it is extremely good vs Faeries, Jund AND UW control, they cannot block it, since the only nonwhite creature is Vendillion Clique and you can give it first strike. It can force them to wrath one dude, and stop a baneslayer.
This deck is basically geared to have the same good matchups as standard Doran, and be competitive G1, and much closer to even G2 and 3 vs UW control. It doesn't sacrifice much, the mana has been pretty stable, although it could possibly use another mystic gate/bosk and one less forest. KOTR works as a mana fixer in a pinch. Rafiq of the Many really punishes decks that cannot block, and let you win out of nowhere.
I feel this deck can be tuned to almost any metagame (currently tuned to the online metgame) and urge people to try it. Bant is definitely the place to be, because so many decks are going to be using stoneforge mystic, and bant charm and qasali pridemage are excellent answers. Thoughtseize is still insane, I'm definitely going to start playing 4, it is only ever bad on the draw vs Elves and RDW, I still like it on the play, at least vs Elves. I'm currently developing a bitterblossom/leak variant, but nothing in besieged has changed my mind about this deck, and I would suggest it to anyone, even just to tinker with or try.
how was capsule for you all day? and I was looking at your list going "oh glissa helps maintain swords power" then I read the last line and was goin "zomg forgot sculler was an artifact" I like your list in the fact it runs 6 md discard spells plus 4 sculler
Doran have actually been doing well outside the US lately. Heres a list that have won 2 PTQs in a row in Japan. http://www.mtgpulse.com/event.php?e=431#3602
It looks really strong if you ask me.
idg running 25 land in a deck that curves out at three. i guess for profane command and consistent landfalls with steppe lynx.
If you are playing Grizzle Leotau, then you are probably misusing the spot. There are so many good creatures to use, that there just isn't room to use that cat.
Everyone knows that good luck and good game are such insincere terms that any man who does not connect his right hook with the offender's jaw on the very utterance of such a phrase is no man I would consider as such.
-2 Colossus
+1 Baneslayer
+1 Maelstrom Pulse
+2 Plains
I'd honestly run 26 land before 24. And Linvala belongs in the sideboard imo, considering there aren't any matchups outside of Naya and Combo Elves you need her active, and usually not until g2 anyway.
Venser Control/ Mimic Allies
Valakut Titan Stole My House
I ran 3 pulses in the GP the day before and it was always too many. I'd rather decrease the curve and stick with 24 lands than increase the curve and go to 26.
My MTGSalvation Cube Page (not always up to date, but sweet pics of my alters)
I haven't directly tested the deck, so I'm going to have go to based on your results, and if you say 3 pulses is too much I do believe you (felt that way in old std with Jund).
I'm considering building up Doran, but it'd be the last of my resources for building on MTGO so I'm concerned it might not be the trick, I definitely restored life into Linvala after thinking about her being a 4/4 beatstick, and against Naya that's fairly important, though against Jund she should die fairly quickly or they are doing it wrong.
Couple of things though, why is Zealous Persecution sideboarded? That card is extremely good in almost every matchup I've used it in (played BW tokens for a while). That and this deck feels like it would have a natural mishappened accident against G/W Trap! due to it's ability to cast Emrakul turn 4-5, even through hand disruption and counters from Fae. It's not a huge matchup that pops up around the corner, but still a concern.
What are your major problems with Doran right now? What do you wish the deck could do that it can't? What are your worst matchups?
Venser Control/ Mimic Allies
Valakut Titan Stole My House
Jund doesn't actually run that much removal nowadays maindeck, if you look at the successful lists. Most lists have maybe 2 or 3 pulse/terminate, and the 4 bolts. If you play Knights correctly, that means you have 12 creatures that they have 2 or 3 answers to. Linvala is often the least of their worries (especially since they can't tutor up a singleton Shriekmaw or Spitebellows to kill her)
Largely a combination of not enough space in the deck and the fact that its a pretty awful blank against Valakut, which was VERY popular at the PTQ due to its good performance at the GP. I agree its great in many matchups, but it wasn't universally good enough. Depending on the meta I could see it making the cut where the Colossi are coming out, but I think Brave the Elements could be a lot better there. Also its important to remember that Persecution is much better in a token deck where it can mean an additional 5-8 damage than it is in a rock deck where you rarely have more than 3 or 4 creatures out.
I have to admit I didn't play this matchup at all in the 18 matches I played on the weekend. Postboard I'd feel pretty good about it with Persecution to keep them from triggering Windbrisk, but it would definitely come down to draws.
Also, just for the record, Trap can cast Emrakul turn 3. Sick.
- I wish it recovered better from DoJ. This version recovers a LOT better than the Amsterdam version did, because you don't empty your hand of creatures like that one did, so you can play a big dude and swing with it repeatedly until they have to Day to kill one or two guys, instead of overcomitting with lynxes, loam lions, and harbingers. Still, sometimes you can get blown out. I tried Reveillarks and Sun Titans, and it just really screwed with the curve too much. I think 2 Baneslayers at the top is really all you need, and that helps keeps the mulligans down. In the end, the strategy that won me both matches against the DoJ decks in the PTQ was Gaddock Teeg+ disruption to land him.
- I wish it didn't do so much damage to itself. Going down to 2 bosks and potentially down to 3 Thoughtseize may help that. A third baneslayer or a Behemoth Sledge may help that as well, I'm not entirely sure what the answer is. I lost a game at some point where I did 9 to myself and they did 11. That's not good magic.
- R/G Valakut seems to be my worst matchup. R/G Valakut is basically a one card combo, and we don't kill them reliably enough before they get to 7 lands and can scapeshift. We have tools to kill Omen, but there's absolutely nothing we can do if they pull scapeshift off the top of the deck and cast it with 7 lands. Postboard they've usually got Obstinate Baloth which buys them a lot of time. Almost every game I won against them involved Leyline of Sanctity (which I prefer over Halo solely based on its additional utility vs RDW)
- RDW is also pretty bad. Thoughtseize is pretty awful vs RDW, and I take a lot of damage from my fetches and bosk, and the deck just isn't as fast as it was in Amsterdam. Postboard they're almost certain to bring in Leyline of Punishment, which can stop Baneslayer or Forge-Tender from helping us much. I only win game 1 against RDW when I get lucky, and games 2 and 3 are still pretty hard.
- U/W Control comes down entirely to the skill of the pilots involved. I feel like I beat the U/W players who I am better than, and I lose to the U/W players who are better than me. Its all about playing smart, not getting blown out by overextending, and having answers to their lifegain creatures (saw Baneslayer and Wurmcoil in U/W at different times this weekend). Its easy to see U/W as an awful matchup, but postboard I actually really like our chances, especially if I end up maindecking Brave the Elements.
- I lost 4 straight games (2 matches in a row) to Mythic in the Grand Prix, but all 4 of them were after I rippped their hand to pieces with Thoughtseize and Sculler, and they topdecked a Sovereigns for the win. At that point I didn't have Pridemages maindeck and only 3 Paths, so I just didn't have the instant speed responses to solve those kind of problems. I feel like more testing is necessary, but the Mythic matchup could be quite manageable.
Honestly, I know my PTQ results don't bear this out, but trust me when I tell you that testing does, and I just made misplays which influenced the PTQ results. This deck demolishes Naya, and does a pretty darn good job against Jund as well. In general, creature decks have problems with this, and Shaman decks are reliably unprepared for Bojuka Bog.
I also haven't played it against Spagnolo's new U/R counterburn deck, but I think that matchup comes down to whether I land a Doran or not, since all of his attacking creatures have 1 toughness, and he'll have problems killing me with only 1 toughness creatures in hand. Expect that deck to get popular though, it had a good showing at the GP and looks like a ton of fun.
J
My MTGSalvation Cube Page (not always up to date, but sweet pics of my alters)
jund has to run 4 pulses they just cut down on the terminates etc.. pulse is good for them cause it not only removes creatures but can remove bitterblossom, prismatic omen, planeswalkers, etc...its good utility and i dont want to say never a dead card but has very few matches where it is useless.
anyways im going to re-sleave up doran and do the aggro list and have a stronger discard package to help protect. im really liking aggro these days and well here we go...
also a big question should i remake this on Magic Online as well?
-chias
My MTGSalvation Cube Page (not always up to date, but sweet pics of my alters)
My Blog About It
The Zoo list lets you run Scattershot Archers in the SB, which just hoses fae, and it's fast enough to get board presence before they can set up bitterblossom + spellstutter shenanigans. The Zoo list also punishes the hell out of Jund if they aren't keeping a removal-heavy hand, and just trounces the fauna/demigod builds.
Wargate is the only iffy matchup, simply because you're reliant on sticking a pridemage to answer the omen.
The zoo build is basically a slower aggro deck than Naya, without the card advantage generated by Bloodbraid/Shaman/Vengevine. Plus, it folds to Wall of Omens, with all the little creatures that can't get past it once Doran is out. It also has far fewer ways to interact with other decks, which is the strength of the rock deck. All the disruption helps your few threats win.
Plus, when you're trying to win off of 1 or 2 big dudes on the board, you're not nearly as dead to Day of Judgment as you are when you're trying to win with 4 Loam Lions.
I say all of this because I tested the zoo version extensively, and eventually threw it away entirely, playing several different control decks before coming back to Rock.
J
My MTGSalvation Cube Page (not always up to date, but sweet pics of my alters)
4 Doran, the siege tower
3 Wall of Omens
2 Skinrender
3 Baneslayer Angel
3 Birds of Paradise
3 Noble Hierarch
3 Kitchen Finks
-----------------
21 Creatures
3 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Profane Command
2 Memoricide
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
3 Path to Exile
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Behemoth Sledge
-------------------
16 Spells
1 Wooded Bastion
1 Fetid Heath
1 Twilight Mire
3 Reflecting Pool
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Murmuring Bosk
1 Plains
2 Forest
3 Razorverge Thicket
1 Stirring Wildwood
2 Swamp
------------------------
23 Lands
That's how it looks now, with the addition MB I would like to make some space for a couple of Thrulls and 3 Green Sun Zenith.
My gaming group tells me that I should stick to the zoo version, but I didn't like it (it loses against Big Jace so easily).
Thank you in advance!
Whats in the Deck
- Even with 6 manadorks, I feel like you need 24 land.
- Maindeck Memoricide seems very awkward. There are so many decks where it just doesn't do anything, and remember, if it doesn't absolutely wreck your opponent's plan, you're just spending 4 mana to not affect the board and fall behind.
- Ratchet Bomb seems pretty bad for this deck. What exactly are you blowing up that you're happy with that you can't get with something else? Maybe for the elf matchup I could see it, but in general I'd rather have a few Maelstrom Pulse in that slot, otherwise you're just blowing up your own stuff.
- Skinrender doesn't really fit maindeck right now either, too many decks that he does nothing against. He's good at killing Kitchen finks, but not much else against U/W, he only kills Vendilion and Scion against Faeries, he does absolutely nothing against most Valakut builds. Remember, it's not a May ability, he has to do it, so you cant really use him if your opponent has no critters.
- Wall of Omens doesn't really do all that much either. Your best way to stop an oncoming rush is to use Doran and KotR to just be bigger than them. Finks does a good job of this too. Wall will just sit there not helping you win. Don't get drawn in by its synergy with Doran, it just doesn't help.
Whats Missing
- My testing against a pretty wide field shows that you need at least 4, if not 5 instant speed removal spells. I couldn't find a 5th I was happy with, but I'm running 4 Paths now and I feel they are essential. Mythic in particular causes this deck big problems because of their ability to just topdeck the win.
- Where's Knight of the Reliquary? He's huge in this deck, you get to run a lot of fetches and make him enormous, plus this is the perfect deck to use the toolbox. Sejiri Steppe is always good, but 1 Bojuka Bog is maindeckable right now as well. Plus, a singleton Tec Edge is good when you can tutor it up right as you need it.
So in summary, I'd do the following (loose guidelines, not specific cuts)
-Wall of Omens
-Skinrender
-Ratchet Bomb
-Memoricide
+KotR
+1 PtE
+Maelstrom Pulse
+1 Land (and the Knight tutor package)
Also, I'd consider finding room for Tidehollow Sculler, as he's pretty amazing in this deck.
That's my .02, hope it helps.
EDIT: Also, unlike many other decks, the manabase on this deck is very specific, and requires precise tweaking based on what you're running. Every time you make a change to the maindeck, re-evaluate your manabase. I've found that I never want more than 2 Murmuring Bosk, and that the Filters are more a problem than a help most of the time, but that I want my full complement of Razorverge Thickets. Thats based on the desire to regularly be able to play T1 Birds into T2 Doran and ALSO be able to play T1 Thoughtseize into T2 Sculler into T3 Doran. When you figure out what your dream hands are, go back and make sure your manabase is set up to provide it.
J
My MTGSalvation Cube Page (not always up to date, but sweet pics of my alters)
I packed in the Ratchet Bombs, due to the metagame in my country (lots of RDW and Fae) against RDW when I hit Baneslayer is too late since I'm a bolt away.
I put out the Tidehollow scullers, since the first was pretty good, but after that they got countered of bolted away (2 thoughness is not enough).
The next PTQ in my country is next February 19th, so MBS will be legal and I really want to include the Green Sun Zenith, my possible build will be like this (after taking into account your considerations)
3 Doran, the siege tower
3 Knights of the Reliquary
3 Baneslayer Angel
3 Birds of Paradise
3 Noble Hierarch
3 Kitchen Finks
2 Thrun, the last Troll
-----------------
20 Creatures
3 Thoughtseize
2 Profane Command
2 Green Sun Zenith
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
4 Path to Exile
2 Maeltrom Pulse
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
-------------------
16 Spells
1 Wooded Bastion
1 Fetid Heath
1 Twilight Mire
3 Reflecting Pool
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Murmuring Bosk
1 Plains
2 Forest
3 Razorverge Thicket
1 Stirring Wildwood
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Seriji Steppe
1 Swamp
------------------------
24 Lands
What do you think of this list?
THIS
is golden advice.
on topic:
What would be considered more of a zoo build now adays? and what does thoughtseize get that inquisition does not?
do you want me to keep going? elspeth, sovereigns, wurmcoil engine, spectral procession etc
This list "splashes" blue, so it is doran/dark bant, but Doran provides a critical big, cheap beater.
3 thoughtseize
2 path to exile
4 birds of paradise
3 noble hierarch
3 putrid leech
2 qasali pridemage
1 maelstrom pulse
2 bant charm
3 doran, the siege tower
4 knight of the reliquary
3 rhox war monk
2 Elspath, knight errant
1 chameleon colossus
2 rafiq of the many
1 baneslayer angel
The Manabase
2 murmuring Bosk
1 mystic gate
1 flooded grove
2 seachrome coast
1 darkslick shores
1 razorverge thicket
1 stirring wildwood
1 plains
1 sejiri steppe
1 swamp
1 bojuka bog
1 island
2 forest
4 verdant catacombs
4 misty rainforest
Sideboard
1 bant charm
1 behemoth sledge(this might get taken out, only in vs fae and not needed)
1 deathmark
1 thoughtseize
1 path to exile
2 jace, the mind sculptor
3 great sable stag (not necessary, so these slots are open. I'm crushing fae without them in my hands) I just haven't figured out what to put here yet
1 glen elendra archmage
1 chameleon colossus
1 qasali pridemage
2 vendillion clique (would be maindeck, but don't work with doran. I may include a third)
So this deck basically punishes decks that can't block with every efficient beater in the format, and Rafiq (especially on turn 3) allows you to go over the top of almost any deck. I was running Jace maindeck, but I would just win before I could cast him in most matchups, he's really only needed vs 5cc and Uw control.
This biggest change over standard rock decks is bant charm, and Rhox War Monk. Rhox is just an efficient lifegain beater, and makes it very hard to race, especially when he gets exalted. he can also just create a lot of unprofitable attacks by sitting around blocking if necessary. Bant Charm is the all-star. I needed a way to keep my removal count high, and have an answer to the annoying cryptic time walk if I didn't get a thoughtseize. Bant Charm was the answer to both.
The mana base took the longest to work on, it is actually very good, and the deck mulligans exceptionally well. You have (with Doran or CC) 13 sources of G turn 1, and except stirring wildwood, steppe and bog, every land can come into play untapped.
vs UW/5cc/whatever, clique and thoughtseize come in for Doran, Rhox comes out and Jace comes in, along with another Bant charm and glen elendra archmage, who is also good vs scapeshift. The matchups become highly draw dependant, but are significantly improved post board.
I'm curious what people think, and I'm looking for sideboard suggestions (particularly for the online metagame). I've done a lot of testing in 8/2 man's so if anyone is curious, I can tell you how a particular matchup plays out, pre and post board. In case anyone is wondering, the deathmark is in vs Elves, they are huge online, probably due to cost, and I needed even more cheap spot removal vs them, since this deck can't play sweepers.
This is what I am working on.
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
2 Sejiri Steppe
3 Stirring Wildwood
3 Reflecting Pool
1 Twilight Mire
2 Plains
1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Bitter Blossom
3 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Basilisk Collar
1 Behmoth Sledge
3 Elspeth, Knight Errant
4 Thoughtsieze
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Stone forge Mystic
1 Devoted Druid
3 Lotus Cobra
3 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Baneslayer Angel
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Duress
2 Mind Shatter
3 Reveillark
4 Path to Exile
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Wilt-Leaf Liege
Pretty much have lots of padding against sweeps, and cards with built in CA generation. Thought about using leech instead of sculler. Not sure how this build will do against more aggro decks, but I'd expect it to have favorable matches against the other decks.
I'd run sword of B/M and sword and F/F if I had any.
hey this looks pretty cool...um hmm id rather have the sculler vs the leech. he causes so many problems for the opponent and he usually deals with the sculler b4 dealing with other things cause they want their card back so hes good tempo i suppose. also i do want to try out that new sword as well!
-chias
I went 3-1 (losing to a UWG Scapeshift when he topdecked omen into KOTR to wipe my board, the turn before lethal.) I beat the same 75 card mirror 2-0 the previous match, this deck is heavily favored. I would suggest a fourth pridemage and fourth thoughtseize either MD or board. Sower has also been underwhelming)
Main Deck
60 cards
1 Celestial Colonnade
1 Darkslick Shores
1 Flooded Grove
2 Forest
2 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Murmuring Bosk
1 Mystic Gate
1 Plains
1 Razorverge Thicket
2 Seachrome Coast
1 Sejiri Steppe
4 Verdant Catacombs
23 lands
2 Baneslayer Angel
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Chameleon Colossus
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Rafiq of the Many
3 Rhox War Monk
1 Vendilion Clique
25 creatures 2 Bant Charm
2 Cryptic Command
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Nameless Inversion
2 Path to Exile
2 Thoughtseize
12 other spells
Sideboard
1 Bant Charm
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
3 Great Sable Stag
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Path to Exile
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Tectonic Edge
2 Thoughtseize
1 Vendilion Clique
15 sideboard cards
I've actually made some changes since, Faeries is such a good matchup 3 GSS are unnecessary. Sower is just for elves, I switched it and now just play more spot removal and 1 flashfreeze for GR valakut/RDW. Stillmoon Cavalier is my new tech, it is extremely good vs Faeries, Jund AND UW control, they cannot block it, since the only nonwhite creature is Vendillion Clique and you can give it first strike. It can force them to wrath one dude, and stop a baneslayer.
This deck is basically geared to have the same good matchups as standard Doran, and be competitive G1, and much closer to even G2 and 3 vs UW control. It doesn't sacrifice much, the mana has been pretty stable, although it could possibly use another mystic gate/bosk and one less forest. KOTR works as a mana fixer in a pinch. Rafiq of the Many really punishes decks that cannot block, and let you win out of nowhere.
I feel this deck can be tuned to almost any metagame (currently tuned to the online metgame) and urge people to try it. Bant is definitely the place to be, because so many decks are going to be using stoneforge mystic, and bant charm and qasali pridemage are excellent answers. Thoughtseize is still insane, I'm definitely going to start playing 4, it is only ever bad on the draw vs Elves and RDW, I still like it on the play, at least vs Elves. I'm currently developing a bitterblossom/leak variant, but nothing in besieged has changed my mind about this deck, and I would suggest it to anyone, even just to tinker with or try.
idg running 25 land in a deck that curves out at three. i guess for profane command and consistent landfalls with steppe lynx.
12 fetchland and no kotr? lolk
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Doran, the Siege Tower
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Treefolk Harbinger
4 Thoughtseize
4 Path to Exile
Equipment:
1 Behemoth Sledge
1 Basilisk Collar
Planeswalkers:
2 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Stirring Wildwood
4 Murmuring Bosk
4 Sunpetal Grove
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Forest
2 Swamp
3 Plains
1 Kabira Crossroads
If you are playing Grizzle Leotau, then you are probably misusing the spot. There are so many good creatures to use, that there just isn't room to use that cat.
I personally like using Loam Lion instead of Steppe Lynx, just because it is a constant 2/3.
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.