You're making the mistake of thinking I'm translating from std to ext. I'm saying that the card DOES see play in Std but is used minimally because of it's activation cost - which any competent UB pilot can explain to you.
Re: Fae's removal - you need to find better testing partners w/better lists. Smother is the core removal for Fae as long as Putrid Leech and Doran are in the upcoming format.
First, I thought you were trying to say it doesn't see play, my apologies.
I have to disagree with Tar Pit again though, I haven't heard of a UB player who complains about Tar Pits cost, it's fairly cheap (actually it's the cheapest of all the manlands) and at worst it is just a great fixer for the deck. Perhaps two is too many, but I feel 1 should at least be included since it gives the deck such reach.
My lists and either my piloting//friends piloting have t8'd and won multiple major events (PTQs, States, cash events) w/Cruel Control whilst it was in Std. Take it for what it's worth, I have no particular care for whether you 'believe' me or not, I'm merely trying to assist you (and like it or not, you dearly need assistance re: your list development, based on what you've posted so far). There's nothing wrong with needing help, if it's good enough for tier 1 pros to need help from each other and the general community then it's good enough for the rest of us.
I'm not challenging your credentials (though anyone could say that they have done well anywhere and simply lie), I'm saying this meta is different then ALA-LRW Standard. Manlands, Jace, and other cards cause other cards to be needed, and I think Tar Pit can make a case for itself.
Here's the list I'm currently toying with, you can find a prev. development a few pages back;
Preordain is testing well but the deck still relies heavily on pure card advantage in the Fae match up (draw 2s, Volcanic Fallout).Mulldrifter is prob. better than Jace for that purpose//match up. It (Preordain) really shines in match ups where you want specific cards (either removal or anti-Pyro cards) and need to dig past the wrong stuff.
Tar Pit is 'fine'. I haven't needed it at all myself and pretty much always have something to do w/my mana. I can certainly see the attraction of it, I just prefer having better coloured mana when I only have an ideal activation opportunity about once in 7 or 8 games.
Preordain seems like an excellent card; at no point during a game would it be considered a bad draw. It's difficult because one has to decide what cards to cut for it.
This talk of Jace being cut has me piqued. I consider Jace to be the super-utility card. The efficiency represented on Jace sometimes astound me. In what situations would having a Jace be a problem? Sure, against aggro he's really not that good and you never want to cast it against Jund. At worst, he digs three cards deep. Not bad for 4 mana. And if you can protect him, the static card advantage he generates just buries an opponent. Granted, I have a man-crush on Jace because of his Standard format interactions, but it seems he transitions easily and well into Extended. Why would he be cut?
How's Grave Titan been working out? It and Baneslayer compete as the finishers of choice, it seems, and the lifelink on Baneslayer is a large draw for me to run it.
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In love with Black since I first began playing Avatar of Woe.
In love with Blue since Cryptic Command was printed.
Jace IS super-efficient but he (like all PW'ers) is just shut-down by Bitterblossom. If Faeries comprises a large part of the meta you're playing in, you (anyone) would do well to put the Jace-pride on hold (which is hard for me personally to do considering he garnered me a 5th @ Nats, a $5k win and a PTQ win this week) and just play a more appropriate card.
I like Titan because he beats Fae straight up and doesn't cave to Maelstrom Pulse.
I agree that grave titan seems to be the best finisher for the deck. Pretty often you need something that will balance the board position if you are behind and can dodge the removals just as easily. Grave titan is 10 power for 6 mana spread across 3 bodies. I currently just use the titan as a 1 of because in the control mirrors etc. it usually just gets discarded any ways.
Im not sure im sold on the thought of preordain yet though. I understand its uses and how you justify using it. The benefits of using it is to find your 1-3'ofs a lot easier. But should we not have better card selection anyways?
I've cut Jace, atm. He needs less BB, much like he performed better in Std the less BBElf's there were. I might add him back at some stage, I'm not sure.
I think that Fae's dominance on the meta is going to be short lived. Everyone knows they are a deck and are singling them out with cards that are also good against the rest of the meta. Combined with RDW's new tools, Vengevine, and other new cards that make aggro better; Fae is going to lose it's deathgrasp. For now, Jace may be fairly weak, but eventually he will gain his strength back so I will continue testing with him to see how it will work in a weaker Fae meta.
Vengevine is hardly a compelling reason to force Jace II into a list. There's nothing wrong with accepting that Jace's time in 1.X isn't this year.
I also think that it is folly to ignore Faeries ... for 18months there was some new reason why it wouldn't dominate and time again Bitterblossom got there.
Another reason to not go all in on Jace is other meta factors; Doran, Merfolk (horrendous here), RDW.
He's good, don't get me wrong, but forcing a pet card into a pet archetype is not the way to build a PTQ winning deck.
I won 2-1 against elves and faeries and 1-0-1 against boat brew. It wasn't a super competitive tournament but really only the good players there even had the cards to play in the tournament so at least I got good testing in.
I couldn't find cascade bluffs to run fallouts and more cryptics in the main. The last thing I wanted to lose to was mana screw. Also I just don't have reflecting pools anymore. I actually just straight up chose not to play JTMS in here. This particular build just didn't want him. He is insane in grixis control though.
Thought Scour is terrible in BV. How many flashback spells are being run? Say roughly 15. This gives you a roughly 38% chance of milling one flashback spell. And even if you do, you paid one mana to cantrip and dump an overcosted spell. Alchemy, Geistflame, Devil's play, etc. all cost much more to flash back than your average card, so you're not getting full value out of it.
You'd much rather play Ponder. At least that generates a tangible advantage.
Vengevine is hardly a compelling reason to force Jace II into a list. There's nothing wrong with accepting that Jace's time in 1.X isn't this year.
I also think that it is folly to ignore Faeries ... for 18months there was some new reason why it wouldn't dominate and time again Bitterblossom got there.
Another reason to not go all in on Jace is other meta factors; Doran, Merfolk (horrendous here), RDW.
He's good, don't get me wrong, but forcing a pet card into a pet archetype is not the way to build a PTQ winning deck.
I'm not suggesting any of these things. I'm simply saying that we shouldn't rule Jace out just because he's weak against Fae. Especially if Fae don't have a deathgrip on the format.
I'm not suggesting any of these things. I'm simply saying that we shouldn't rule Jace out just because he's weak against Fae. Especially if Fae don't have a deathgrip on the format.
That is true. I wanted to fit jace into my build. And since we are using walls/etc im sure we can protect it a lot easier than just evoking mulldrifter etc. I can see jace being really good in 5 color later on in the season when we have a fully established meta or after the first few rounds of gpts.
What im thinking for my board right now is this:
Basically im expecting a lot of green based aggro decks. I am also having the fallouts just encase there are faeries i dont want to just get blown out. The negates are pretty much for control mirrors.
Wurmcoil Engine is the best card in format against Jund btw ...
That does sound true. Against jund it dodges all of its removal at least trades with anything it will touch.
I was also considering rhox war monk somewhere in my 75 as a 3 of. I think it would be the best in the board. In my meta im expecting a lot of burn/sligh/blightning aggro decks. Against these i think the monk would be one of the best choices.
That does sound true. Against jund it dodges all of its removal at least trades with anything it will touch.
I was also considering rhox war monk somewhere in my 75 as a 3 of. I think it would be the best in the board. In my meta im expecting a lot of burn/sligh/blightning aggro decks. Against these i think the monk would be one of the best choices.
Isn't Kitchen Finks just better since you can life on entry and it persist.
]I was also considering rhox war monk somewhere in my 75 as a 3 of. I think it would be the best in the board. In my meta im expecting a lot of burn/sligh/blightning aggro decks. Against these i think the monk would be one of the best choices.
I would run Kitchen Finks over it. Although the Monk is not easy to kill, Finks is much harder. Not only does he gain you a minimum 4 life, he absorbs two attacks/burn spells that would have gone to your face. Finks is better IMO.
The entire time during the last match when I was color screwed and kept off double white I was thinking "Damnit Jaden, that troll-faced bastard might be right."
I'm working on building this for upcoming extended tournaments and I'm taking a much more nostalgic approach (as this is the deck that I played in Lor-Ala standard).
This list is very similar to what I ran back in standard. This is probably what I will be sleeving up in a few days for Extended. Bant charm is awesome =)
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Standard: B/x Devotion Modern: Death & Taxes
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Top 8 - Star City Games Super IQ 5/25/13
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Obviously Finks is better than War Monk ... not even a discussion.
It actually depends on the meta a bit. War Monk is good vs most damage based sweepers (it survives fallout and the 3 damage one for example), it's a firm wall against the 3/x and 2/x stuff like BBE, Fauna Shaman, Goblin Guide etc. The big problem is that he dies to Vengevine, although you'll have to see how important that is.
Like everything else in this deck, it's a meta call.
It actually depends on the meta a bit. War Monk is good vs most damage based sweepers (it survives fallout and the 3 damage one for example), it's a firm wall against the 3/x and 2/x stuff like BBE, Fauna Shaman, Goblin Guide etc. The big problem is that he dies to Vengevine, although you'll have to see how important that is.
Like everything else in this deck, it's a meta call.
Umm... Finks doesn't die to damaged based sweepers. And Kitchen Finks trades with the 3/x and 2/x stuff quite handily, but it does it TWICE.
90% of the time, Finks > War Monk.
Except in Legacy, but that's a totally different discussion.
The entire time during the last match when I was color screwed and kept off double white I was thinking "Damnit Jaden, that troll-faced bastard might be right."
Anything where Doran is big, anything full of Fae (because it survives both fallout and vendilion clique), certain forms of RDW that use hellspark elemental and 3 damage burn spells etc. The big difference is 4 toughness vs persist. If the 4 toughness actually matters then yeah, War Monk is a better choice.
Anything where Doran is big, anything full of Fae (because it survives both fallout and vendilion clique), certain forms of RDW that use hellspark elemental and 3 damage burn spells etc. The big difference is 4 toughness vs persist. If the 4 toughness actually matters then yeah, War Monk is a better choice.
That is essentially what i was thinking. It seems like it would stop the attacks long enough for me to stabilize where as finks can easily get ran over.
Anything where Doran is big, anything full of Fae (because it survives both fallout and vendilion clique), certain forms of RDW that use hellspark elemental and 3 damage burn spells etc. The big difference is 4 toughness vs persist. If the 4 toughness actually matters then yeah, War Monk is a better choice.
This isn't a "big difference", it's a non-event. Finks is generally worth about 10 life against aggressive decks, and//or 2-4 cards worth of stopping~trading power.
War Monk cops a Smother//Pulse//Path//Terminate and does nothing.
That is essentially what i was thinking. It seems like it would stop the attacks long enough for me to stabilize where as finks can easily get ran over.
You guys need to play a LOT more Magic ... come on fellas, it's not even a discussion.
First, I thought you were trying to say it doesn't see play, my apologies.
I have to disagree with Tar Pit again though, I haven't heard of a UB player who complains about Tar Pits cost, it's fairly cheap (actually it's the cheapest of all the manlands) and at worst it is just a great fixer for the deck. Perhaps two is too many, but I feel 1 should at least be included since it gives the deck such reach.
I'm not challenging your credentials (though anyone could say that they have done well anywhere and simply lie), I'm saying this meta is different then ALA-LRW Standard. Manlands, Jace, and other cards cause other cards to be needed, and I think Tar Pit can make a case for itself.
How has Preordain been testing?
BGStandard Green AggroGB
UWRGModern Saheeli CobraGRWU
UBRGLegacy StormGRBU
Wizards Certified Rules Advisor
Tar Pit is 'fine'. I haven't needed it at all myself and pretty much always have something to do w/my mana. I can certainly see the attraction of it, I just prefer having better coloured mana when I only have an ideal activation opportunity about once in 7 or 8 games.
-TEAM REVOLUTION
This talk of Jace being cut has me piqued. I consider Jace to be the super-utility card. The efficiency represented on Jace sometimes astound me. In what situations would having a Jace be a problem? Sure, against aggro he's really not that good and you never want to cast it against Jund. At worst, he digs three cards deep. Not bad for 4 mana. And if you can protect him, the static card advantage he generates just buries an opponent. Granted, I have a man-crush on Jace because of his Standard format interactions, but it seems he transitions easily and well into Extended. Why would he be cut?
How's Grave Titan been working out? It and Baneslayer compete as the finishers of choice, it seems, and the lifelink on Baneslayer is a large draw for me to run it.
In love with Blue since Cryptic Command was printed.
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Standard: Bahahaha. What a waste.
Modern: 4CC
Legacy: Dredge, UB Control
EDH:
UB Dralnu, Lord of Griefer Turns
UErtai, Wizard Adept
I like Titan because he beats Fae straight up and doesn't cave to Maelstrom Pulse.
-TEAM REVOLUTION
Im not sure im sold on the thought of preordain yet though. I understand its uses and how you justify using it. The benefits of using it is to find your 1-3'ofs a lot easier. But should we not have better card selection anyways?
-TEAM REVOLUTION
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Wizards Certified Rules Advisor
I also think that it is folly to ignore Faeries ... for 18months there was some new reason why it wouldn't dominate and time again Bitterblossom got there.
Another reason to not go all in on Jace is other meta factors; Doran, Merfolk (horrendous here), RDW.
He's good, don't get me wrong, but forcing a pet card into a pet archetype is not the way to build a PTQ winning deck.
-TEAM REVOLUTION
3 Trinket Mage
3 Mulldrifter
2 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Brittle Effigy
2 Ratchet Bomb
3 Jace Beleren
3 Inquisition of Kozelik
3 Pyroclasm
1 Into the Roil
1 Cryptic Command
2 Cruel Ultimatum
3 Terminate
4 Mana Leak
1 Broken Ambitions
4 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Darkslick Shores
2 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Drowned Catacombs
2 Dragonskull Summit
2 Mountain
3 Island
3 Swamp
3 Negate
3 Deathmark
2 Forked Bolt
1 Inquisition of Kozelik
2 Duress
1 Glen-Elendra Archmage
2 Flashfreeze
1 Jace Beleren
I won 2-1 against elves and faeries and 1-0-1 against boat brew. It wasn't a super competitive tournament but really only the good players there even had the cards to play in the tournament so at least I got good testing in.
I couldn't find cascade bluffs to run fallouts and more cryptics in the main. The last thing I wanted to lose to was mana screw. Also I just don't have reflecting pools anymore. I actually just straight up chose not to play JTMS in here. This particular build just didn't want him. He is insane in grixis control though.
I won every game with tar pit. Cards awesome.
I'm not suggesting any of these things. I'm simply saying that we shouldn't rule Jace out just because he's weak against Fae. Especially if Fae don't have a deathgrip on the format.
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That is true. I wanted to fit jace into my build. And since we are using walls/etc im sure we can protect it a lot easier than just evoking mulldrifter etc. I can see jace being really good in 5 color later on in the season when we have a fully established meta or after the first few rounds of gpts.
What im thinking for my board right now is this:
3 flashfreeze
3 kitchen finks
3 runed halo
3 volcanic fallout
Basically im expecting a lot of green based aggro decks. I am also having the fallouts just encase there are faeries i dont want to just get blown out. The negates are pretty much for control mirrors.
-TEAM REVOLUTION
That does sound true. Against jund it dodges all of its removal at least trades with anything it will touch.
I was also considering rhox war monk somewhere in my 75 as a 3 of. I think it would be the best in the board. In my meta im expecting a lot of burn/sligh/blightning aggro decks. Against these i think the monk would be one of the best choices.
Isn't Kitchen Finks just better since you can life on entry and it persist.
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UBRGLegacy StormGRBU
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I would run Kitchen Finks over it. Although the Monk is not easy to kill, Finks is much harder. Not only does he gain you a minimum 4 life, he absorbs two attacks/burn spells that would have gone to your face. Finks is better IMO.
EDIT: 'nathed by Koopa.
Domain Zoo
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Retired decks:
URWBGrixis Teachings (pauper) BWRU
URWB Tainted Vengeance (SOM-INN standard) BWRU
UBR Grixis Vengeance (SOM-INN Standard) RBU
(click for decklist)
Ego Quotes:
2 Wall of Reverence
3 Plumeveil
3 Mulldrifter
2 Broodmate Dragon
Instants
4 Cryptic Command
4 Mana Leak
4 Esper Charm
2 Condemn
2 Bant Charm
Sorceries
3 Cruel Ultimatum
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Jace Beleren
Land
4 Vivid Creek
3 Vivid Grove
3 Vivid Marsh
2 Vivid Crag
4 Reflecting Pool
3 Sunken Ruins
2 Flooded Grove
2 Cascade Bluffs
3 Island
2 Volcanic Fallout
2 Wydwen, the Biting Gale
2 Doom Blade
3 Burrenten Forge-Tender
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Wispmare
1 Obelisk of Alara
(The two Condemn are because I don't have PtE =X)
This list is very similar to what I ran back in standard. This is probably what I will be sleeving up in a few days for Extended. Bant charm is awesome =)
Standard: B/x Devotion
Modern: Death & Taxes
Top 8 - TCGPlayer Qualifier 7/23/11
Top 4 - Free $500 FNM 10/2/12
Top 8 - Star City Games OT 4/20/13
Top 8 - Star City Games Super IQ 5/25/13
Top 8 - TCGPlayer 1k 10/5/13
Top 16 - TCGPlayer Diamond 5k 4/5/14
-TEAM REVOLUTION
It actually depends on the meta a bit. War Monk is good vs most damage based sweepers (it survives fallout and the 3 damage one for example), it's a firm wall against the 3/x and 2/x stuff like BBE, Fauna Shaman, Goblin Guide etc. The big problem is that he dies to Vengevine, although you'll have to see how important that is.
Like everything else in this deck, it's a meta call.
-TEAM REVOLUTION
Umm... Finks doesn't die to damaged based sweepers. And Kitchen Finks trades with the 3/x and 2/x stuff quite handily, but it does it TWICE.
90% of the time, Finks > War Monk.
Except in Legacy, but that's a totally different discussion.
Tarmogoyf.
Domain Zoo
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Retired decks:
URWBGrixis Teachings (pauper) BWRU
URWB Tainted Vengeance (SOM-INN standard) BWRU
UBR Grixis Vengeance (SOM-INN Standard) RBU
(click for decklist)
Ego Quotes:
Finks is generically better than War Monk, but depending on the meta War Monk might be the better choice.
What meta would it be better in? One full of Jund? No. One full of RDW? No.
BGStandard Green AggroGB
UWRGModern Saheeli CobraGRWU
UBRGLegacy StormGRBU
Wizards Certified Rules Advisor
That is essentially what i was thinking. It seems like it would stop the attacks long enough for me to stabilize where as finks can easily get ran over.
This isn't a "big difference", it's a non-event. Finks is generally worth about 10 life against aggressive decks, and//or 2-4 cards worth of stopping~trading power.
War Monk cops a Smother//Pulse//Path//Terminate and does nothing.
You guys need to play a LOT more Magic ... come on fellas, it's not even a discussion.
-TEAM REVOLUTION