Or just race them. They use the combat phase to win, cryptic command stops them as well. Dont be afraid to tae hits for 15, its the lethal hits that matter. Playing 6 sweepers in the board is a terrible idea. You do not want firespouts. Because they come in against one deck, bringing them in against anything with mirran crusader is bad. Also casting pyroclasm on their turn 1 mana dude is a compeltely reasonable play, dont get greedy.
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You always hear about the games armageddon wins 100% of the time. You never hear about the game that it rots in your hand and you get beatdown.
I'm trying a slightly different version with more tarns and an extra red source, cutting the tectonic edges and a depths, added in a ravine... and 4 maindeck bolts cutting oracles and some other cards.
I never wanted to tap out for oracles in most matchups and they were a liability against aggro anyways. Main deck bolts hit the pridemages, and other key creatures in aggro matchups, as well as kill plainswalkers (Obviously siding them out vs control depending on their build).
You cant always stall vs aggro with cryptics... since you wont always draw cryptics, or your combo pieces without disruption throw at you.
There was one point in which i considered running maindeck bolts as well, but i decided against it. I was talking to Matthias Hunt ( winner of the first minneapolis PTQ, who created and played UGr Scapeshift which eventually won GP atlanta), and he said it wasnt needed. The next ptq i played against naya bant bant UW Boros and Bant, and none of the games were i like dang i just needed a bolt maindeck. Generally we can beat them game 1, game 2 we bring in pryoclasm to deal with pridemage. I think it is just overkill to play bolt in the maindeck, cutting oracle is wrong i feel, I think cutting one is fine but i wouldnt cut more than that. At this point in the season i still cant decide 1 or 2 tech edge, its been very good for me, so i cant see cutting both, maybe, MAYBE one.
This is the deck i will be sleeving up this weekend in Iowa if anyone is curious.
4x misty rainforest
1x scalding tarn
4x island
3x forest
2x tectonic edge
4x flooded grove
1x mountain
4x valakut, the molten pinnacle
4x halimar depths
That's pretty much the exact same list that Matthias made a few months ago, with a different sideboard. That list was not facing as much enchantment hate as we are facing right now, and it definitely did not face bant decks (Who kill you on turn 4) with four pridemages maindeck either. To me it just seems ill prepared for the current metagame.
That's pretty much the exact same list that Matthias made a few months ago, with a different sideboard. That list was not facing as much enchantment hate as we are facing right now, and it definitely did not face bant decks (Who kill you on turn 4) with four pridemages maindeck either. To me it just seems ill prepared for the current metagame.
Yes you are right it is the list Matthias posted on SCG card for card as far as the maindeck goes. But the fact is, I still made top 16 in 4 seperate PTQs, and I have played Bant at least 2 rounds each time. With the latest time being a top 8. I use to think it was an aweful matchup, but its really not that bad once you can play around pridemages. But ive said my opinion and i have not had TERRIBLE experiences against bant. its basically a coin flip matchup. I think i am 4-3 against it right now. This is the deck i feel most comfortable with and there are some matchups i dont feel i can lose, so i will stick with it for the last 2.
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You always hear about the games armageddon wins 100% of the time. You never hear about the game that it rots in your hand and you get beatdown.
Yes you are right it is the list Matthias posted on SCG card for card as far as the maindeck goes. But the fact is, I still made top 16 in 4 seperate PTQs, and I have played Bant at least 2 rounds each time. With the latest time being a top 8. I use to think it was an aweful matchup, but its really not that bad once you can play around pridemages. But ive said my opinion and i have not had TERRIBLE experiences against bant. its basically a coin flip matchup. I think i am 4-3 against it right now. This is the deck i feel most comfortable with and there are some matchups i dont feel i can lose, so i will stick with it for the last 2.
This is all very agreeable. There really isn't much room for innovation in this manner of deck and I don't think it's necessarily bad to be playing "old" technology.
There are very few decks that have been good this extended season that have stopped being viable all-together. Additionally, there is no deck that is positive against the entire field. I would argue that there isn't really even a deck that can coinflip against everything in a field so diverse. Playing a deck you know and being aware of your bad matchup(s) and how to play against it(them) is definitely a good approach to the game. Odds are the bant players aren't getting much meaningful testing against scapeshift because they either write it off as a good matchup and/or nobody in their playgroup plays scapeshift very well.
I don't see much merit to the position of the detractors and I wish you luck in future PTQs.
Yes you are right it is the list Matthias posted on SCG card for card as far as the maindeck goes. But the fact is, I still made top 16 in 4 seperate PTQs, and I have played Bant at least 2 rounds each time. With the latest time being a top 8. I use to think it was an aweful matchup, but its really not that bad once you can play around pridemages. But ive said my opinion and i have not had TERRIBLE experiences against bant. its basically a coin flip matchup. I think i am 4-3 against it right now. This is the deck i feel most comfortable with and there are some matchups i dont feel i can lose, so i will stick with it for the last 2.
It's highly possible that you are correct and that I'm just over-reacting to all the hate going around with 4 bolts. Last time i played I had firespouts... but pyroclasms may just turn the matchups around due to being castable on turn 2 (I would still consider 1-2 more red sources though, extra tarns or something... just to make it more consistant).
As you can tell i haven't had much luck vs elves... due to them getting out of firespout range by the time I was able to cast it (on the draw).
I will be honest, I have played against Elves 2 times and i 2-0ed them both times. Game 1 is purely a race, its actually very difficult to win this game most of the time, if you arnt drawing the combo or cryptics with all of your card draw you need to reevaluate what you are doing with your preordains and ponders. I dont typically play them on turn 1 unless i am on the draw, because i dont know how i am going to win game one on the play game 1 i ike to have an idea what my opponent is playing before i ponder, because it is awward seeing something like manaleak, and a 2nd omen with a turn 1 preordain, i mean if you dont know what you are against how do you play it? i just like to know what im digging for. Game 2 and 3 seem easier for me. They dilute their deck in order to disrupt you. bringing in cards like deglamer or natures claim, leyline to avoid sweepers, and a ton of jank. They play like a mono green control and I didnt know that was a viable archtype. If they play the vengevine version i dont even board in pyroclasm sometimes. As far as adding another red source i dont feel it is needed. I have 10 cards that grant access to red and only 4 cards in my sideboard that need red mana. (4 rampant growth, mountain, tarn, valakut). My friend does play 1 pyroclasm maindeck, so thats certainly an option you can take as well(he made top 8 with me). Right nowidont like firespout. Because it cant kill mirran crusader, so once besieged came out i switched it to pyroclasm as i thought mirran crusader would be a beast. pyroclasm hits almsot everything important that firespout does. Firespout rarely killed knights anyway, and i havent played against a vengevine this year yet. everything else has 4 toughness so it was an easy decision fo me pyroclasm.
If there are any other matchups youd like me to go though id be fine with it.
Other then that I would just be curious as to what you sideboard in/out in some matchups (Just the big ones, such as fearies, U/W, bant, R/G)... and what you think is key in those matchups.
Against U/W stoneforge:I board really weird here
+2spell pierce +2Vclique
-1 explore, -1 oracle of mul daya, -1 scapeshift, -1 ponder.
My friend board in claims but i dont. Combined we are like 6-2 against the deck I havent lost but the theory is you wil beat them if they are hitting you with 1/2's without swords. The key is game 1 land an early omen if you can if not just ramp into a cryptic, when they try to stongeforge sword in i often like to cryptic bounce the sword or interact with them in a way that they cannot hit me with it. Its not the worst if you get hit once or twice. I may have been lucky when ive played it but i havent lost a game yet against it so i must be doing something right. Game 2 is almost the same as game 1. War priest is pretty bad, but if you fear it hold onto your omens and combo them in one turn. I like to vclique them when they activate stongeforge so the sword goes to bottem and they often cant counter the clique. spell pierce them aggresively if you are not ramping. I am always happy to play against this deck.
Faeries:
+2 spell pierce (hedron crabs if you play them)
-1 oracle,-1 explore
I hate this matchup, luckily its not very popular where i play. I beat a friend playing it, basically land an early omen, leave it on top of your deck when you ponder and draw it the turn you intend to play it. If they are not playing spells just hold counters up, until you can omen + counter. If they Eot a spellstutter that means they have another, or a lot of action in hand, so just be aware. I do not like this matchup.
Bant:
+4 pyroclasm
-1 scapeshift, -3 mana leak
They key here is to play around pridemages. EoT bounce, or scapeshift with a large amount of lands in play into 3x valakut, forest, x fetchlands. then play omen the following turn and play a land, kill priemage and when they sac the pridemage kill them in response. Or make sure they have no mana eot, and just combo them. Post board they bring in counters and forge tender, but with this their clock is often slow. If they have a good creature draw chances are they have the nut draw and you cant win or they have nothing and you win.
RG:
+2 spell pierce, +2Vclique
-jace TMS, -1 explore, -1oracle of mul daya, -1 scapeshift.
Once against my sideboard looks weird. aggresively counter their ramp and spells. I played against this once in fargo, I ended up winning games 2 and 3 after keeping a stinker game 1. That player went on to win the PTQ after me being his only loss :(. Its a pretty easy match in my opinion because we can stop them from getting the necissary mana, and they cant stop us. I do not bring in natures claim, because they have the ability to win without omen. Sometimes it will just be dead.
I hope that is a good reveiw for you. Ive been playing this deck the whole season and as much as id like to switch and play UW stoneforge,I am better with this deck and gives me the best chance to win right now, there is not enough time in the rest of the season for me to justify a switch in decks, This one is still a strong choice because it can steal wins very easily. i wrote in a recent article that switching decks at the last moment is a bad idea, and i intend to stick with it. Im more familiar with better lines of play with this deck then a random one i would be picking up. But i think ive mentioned in every post, that even fishbowling with the deck helps you realize what lines of play are better.
I ended up losing to U/W due to miss boarding and an elf deck due to having dug roughly 30 cards deep and never having seen an omen. Ended up 5-2 overall.
I ended up with the same record, once again i like to think i got unlucky. Lost the roll against faeries and they had the nut draw. Game 2 i won. Game 3 i landed an omen and never saw another land, and he had T2 BB and 3 spellstutters so i never got to ramp either. Lost to Jund the next round, game 1 he had triple BBE and i got blightninged twice. Game 2 I won. Game 3 i miscalculated and lost. Ive been sick the last week or so, my mind wasnt as strong as i could be though. didnt play against one bant deck all day for once.
Just curious what list did you play?
EDIT: to bad this season is over looks like im brewing for standard. Ull probably find me in the RUG thread ^_^. That is unless me and my buddies break the format, as they have done in the past!
I see many lists using kitchen Finks and other using baloths.
Which 1 is the best?
Baloth has a bigger body and gives you 4 right away, but it costs1 mana more and can die only once.
Kitchen cost 1 less, need to die 2 times, but they have 2-1 constitution and give you only 2 life per time.
hard decision
EDIT:
Rule question
if i play a prismatic Omen BEFORE playing the land of the turn, does my opp have prio and can kill the enchantment before i play a land, or i can play the land with him only being able to answer the valakut trigger?
I never wanted to tap out for oracles in most matchups and they were a liability against aggro anyways. Main deck bolts hit the pridemages, and other key creatures in aggro matchups, as well as kill plainswalkers (Obviously siding them out vs control depending on their build).
You cant always stall vs aggro with cryptics... since you wont always draw cryptics, or your combo pieces without disruption throw at you.
This is the deck i will be sleeving up this weekend in Iowa if anyone is curious.
4x misty rainforest
1x scalding tarn
4x island
3x forest
2x tectonic edge
4x flooded grove
1x mountain
4x valakut, the molten pinnacle
4x halimar depths
4x preordain
3x ponder
3x mana leak
1x jace, tms
4x cryptic command
4x prismatic omen
4x explore
4x rampant growth
3x scapeshift
3x oracle of mul daya
2x spell pierce
2x nature's claim
4x pyroclasm
2x vendilion clique
2x kitchen finks
2x primal command
1x wurmcoil engine
Also I have a tournament report from top 8 minneapolis going up on the starkington post soon (I hope) for all those interested.
Yes you are right it is the list Matthias posted on SCG card for card as far as the maindeck goes. But the fact is, I still made top 16 in 4 seperate PTQs, and I have played Bant at least 2 rounds each time. With the latest time being a top 8. I use to think it was an aweful matchup, but its really not that bad once you can play around pridemages. But ive said my opinion and i have not had TERRIBLE experiences against bant. its basically a coin flip matchup. I think i am 4-3 against it right now. This is the deck i feel most comfortable with and there are some matchups i dont feel i can lose, so i will stick with it for the last 2.
This is all very agreeable. There really isn't much room for innovation in this manner of deck and I don't think it's necessarily bad to be playing "old" technology.
There are very few decks that have been good this extended season that have stopped being viable all-together. Additionally, there is no deck that is positive against the entire field. I would argue that there isn't really even a deck that can coinflip against everything in a field so diverse. Playing a deck you know and being aware of your bad matchup(s) and how to play against it(them) is definitely a good approach to the game. Odds are the bant players aren't getting much meaningful testing against scapeshift because they either write it off as a good matchup and/or nobody in their playgroup plays scapeshift very well.
I don't see much merit to the position of the detractors and I wish you luck in future PTQs.
On a side note are you going to test with them for nagoya? Them being Matthias, Kyle, Brandon, and whoever else is qualified that i am forgetting.
Thanks. My plan is to test with them, though I won't be able to meet up with them too much before I finish this semester.
It's highly possible that you are correct and that I'm just over-reacting to all the hate going around with 4 bolts. Last time i played I had firespouts... but pyroclasms may just turn the matchups around due to being castable on turn 2 (I would still consider 1-2 more red sources though, extra tarns or something... just to make it more consistant).
As you can tell i haven't had much luck vs elves... due to them getting out of firespout range by the time I was able to cast it (on the draw).
If there are any other matchups youd like me to go though id be fine with it.
+2spell pierce +2Vclique
-1 explore, -1 oracle of mul daya, -1 scapeshift, -1 ponder.
My friend board in claims but i dont. Combined we are like 6-2 against the deck I havent lost but the theory is you wil beat them if they are hitting you with 1/2's without swords. The key is game 1 land an early omen if you can if not just ramp into a cryptic, when they try to stongeforge sword in i often like to cryptic bounce the sword or interact with them in a way that they cannot hit me with it. Its not the worst if you get hit once or twice. I may have been lucky when ive played it but i havent lost a game yet against it so i must be doing something right. Game 2 is almost the same as game 1. War priest is pretty bad, but if you fear it hold onto your omens and combo them in one turn. I like to vclique them when they activate stongeforge so the sword goes to bottem and they often cant counter the clique. spell pierce them aggresively if you are not ramping. I am always happy to play against this deck.
Faeries:
+2 spell pierce (hedron crabs if you play them)
-1 oracle,-1 explore
I hate this matchup, luckily its not very popular where i play. I beat a friend playing it, basically land an early omen, leave it on top of your deck when you ponder and draw it the turn you intend to play it. If they are not playing spells just hold counters up, until you can omen + counter. If they Eot a spellstutter that means they have another, or a lot of action in hand, so just be aware. I do not like this matchup.
Bant:
+4 pyroclasm
-1 scapeshift, -3 mana leak
They key here is to play around pridemages. EoT bounce, or scapeshift with a large amount of lands in play into 3x valakut, forest, x fetchlands. then play omen the following turn and play a land, kill priemage and when they sac the pridemage kill them in response. Or make sure they have no mana eot, and just combo them. Post board they bring in counters and forge tender, but with this their clock is often slow. If they have a good creature draw chances are they have the nut draw and you cant win or they have nothing and you win.
RG:
+2 spell pierce, +2Vclique
-jace TMS, -1 explore, -1oracle of mul daya, -1 scapeshift.
Once against my sideboard looks weird. aggresively counter their ramp and spells. I played against this once in fargo, I ended up winning games 2 and 3 after keeping a stinker game 1. That player went on to win the PTQ after me being his only loss :(. Its a pretty easy match in my opinion because we can stop them from getting the necissary mana, and they cant stop us. I do not bring in natures claim, because they have the ability to win without omen. Sometimes it will just be dead.
I hope that is a good reveiw for you. Ive been playing this deck the whole season and as much as id like to switch and play UW stoneforge,I am better with this deck and gives me the best chance to win right now, there is not enough time in the rest of the season for me to justify a switch in decks, This one is still a strong choice because it can steal wins very easily. i wrote in a recent article that switching decks at the last moment is a bad idea, and i intend to stick with it. Im more familiar with better lines of play with this deck then a random one i would be picking up. But i think ive mentioned in every post, that even fishbowling with the deck helps you realize what lines of play are better.
Just curious what list did you play?
EDIT: to bad this season is over looks like im brewing for standard. Ull probably find me in the RUG thread ^_^. That is unless me and my buddies break the format, as they have done in the past!
For standard I'll either play U/W Cawblade, RUG or my bant brew that has been running pretty well against top decks.
I see many lists using kitchen Finks and other using baloths.
Which 1 is the best?
Baloth has a bigger body and gives you 4 right away, but it costs1 mana more and can die only once.
Kitchen cost 1 less, need to die 2 times, but they have 2-1 constitution and give you only 2 life per time.
hard decision
EDIT:
Rule question
if i play a prismatic Omen BEFORE playing the land of the turn, does my opp have prio and can kill the enchantment before i play a land, or i can play the land with him only being able to answer the valakut trigger?