Ok - I know this deck has potential, because it was played well in T2. Extended only means a larger card pool. Heres a decklist that I think is good, but im not sure. What do you all think? Too many of one card, not enough of another? Are these the BEST cards to use? Discuss!
I know the sideboard needs a lot of work, but obviously the needles are there for Scepter and Madness, and even Fish variants and whatnot.
EDIT: It seems that running Desire in this deck is slow, so there is some discussion about a U\G storm deck that uses brain freeze as the kill, and its been placing well online as far as i know.
Note: Do not use Mod Text... if you are not a Mod. - Ixi v2
Three Tendrils of Agony is waaay too many, reduce that to one. Add Nostalgic Dreams, Gifts Ungiven, Reclaim, and Restock. Gifts is flat out better in this deck than FoF is. Two Brain Freeze's main is also too many. Mans Short and Counterspell should be in the sideboard. Birds of Paradise is very inferior to Sakura-Tribe Elder in a deck where you're using Early Harvest repeatedly. Also, you might want to think about Words of Wisdom and Trade Secrets as additional card drawers. Moment's Peace is also useful in this deck.
first of all, where are your copies of Nostalgic Dreams? there have been many a game ended when you nostalgic dreams back at least 2 spells and pitch 2 land you didn't want.
Does Nostalgic Dreams work with the cards you remove with Mind's Desire, or is it just plain good in this deck? ((EDIT: Nevermind. Lapse in Magic Knowledge )) I also figured that Birds would be best if you needed to hardcast tendrils, since there werent any black mana producing lands. Should I add a swamp or two? And why cut back on the number of Tendrils and Freeze main deck? Those are your win conditions after all. How about a single copy of Twincast in the board?
It's good because you get double mileage out of your early harvests, minds desires, etc. It also allows you to recur a brain freeze that got discarded.
I'd be kind of worried about those Yavimaya Coasts, maybe replace them with two Windswept Heaths and another Island? You don't want to get repeatedly burned by the same land on mana when you're going off and untap four times in a row.
Also, I'd ditch the Tendrils altogether, replacing them with Gifts Ungiven. You don't really need that many win conditions, and a Hunting Pack in the board that you can bring in for game two means it would take three Extractions to kill off your deck.
I'd be kind of worried about those Yavimaya Coasts, maybe replace them with two Windswept Heaths and another Island? You don't want to get repeatedly burned by the same land on mana when you're going off and untap four times in a row.
Also, I'd ditch the Tendrils altogether, replacing them with Gifts Ungiven. You don't really need that many win conditions, and a Hunting Pack in the board that you can bring in for game two means it would take three Extractions to kill off your deck.
Early Harvest won't untap Yavimaya Coast.
also, you're trying a bit too hard to make the desire decks more complicated than they need to be. as long as you're running Mind's Desire, Brain Freeze and Cunning Wish, it's going to take 3 extractions to finish you off....and if they resolve 3 extractions you were going to lose anyway.
Ok - so having more than just a Brain Freeze win condition is a bad thing? I think it would still be best to have a non-decking win condition, cuz if your opponent has a darksteel colossus or two or three or four, milling them those last cards will NEVER happen. And I also included the Yavimaya Coast as just a way to deal with some mana fixing, even though STE already does that.
-3 Yavimaya Coast
+2 Windswept Hearth
+1 Forest
On another note, I really, really like Gifts in this deck more than I did with my first build. Restock proved to be mostly useless, so they come out too. Words of wisdom is much better than Deep Anal. IMO.
-2 Deep Analysis
-2 Trade Secrets
-1 Restock
+3 Words of Wisdom
+2 Gifts Ungiven
If they have one colossus (nobody ever plays more than one), they've lengthened their life by one turn. And neither kill card can get around player-protection spells, so diversification really isn't very effective and weakens your storm chain. Brain Freeze should be fine.
(Deep Analysis can finish them off if you care that much)
@aura: Indeed you are right. I removed the extra copies of freeze and tendrils and added some more good stuff.
@night: Does heartbeat really work well for you? Wouldn't giving your opponent more mana be bad? Thats why I put Fertile ground in my build so its only my mana accel.
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3 damage for 2 mana; it’s like playing 8 Lightning Helixes, except 4 of them have AIDS.
Giving your opponent more mana doesn't matter if they're dead. If you run Heartbeat you can go head and take out Mind's Desire, the twiddle effects, and the enchant land spells. Why? Because if you take out Desires, you've moved from desires into freeze, which is a very similar, but different, deck. Also, why do you still have Tendril's in there? Especially in multiple copies? one Brain Freeze is fine, and you can use Hunting Pack if you want a non player targeting win condition. If you're going to run the twiddle effects, then Wild Growth and Fertile Ground are much better choices for your deck than Heartbeat.
Beta-Male:
1 Hunting Pack in the Board is not making the deck more (or too) complicated, and it gives you much better defense against Extraction. How are you supposed to win after Freeze and Wish have been removed? I really don't see how Desire lets you win at that point seeing as how your deck doesn't really DO anything except cast and draw itself.
First off, if your opponent plays Extraction, you should just play Wish in response to get Hunting Pack. That way they name Hunting Pack instead of something better.
Also, where is Chrome Mox? Please don't try to argue that is doesn't have a place in here as it lets your Sakura-Tribe Elder be played first turn and is an easy spell to play for Desire.
Chrome Mox is crucial; i played Desire in standard for a while before it rotated out, and i have to say, Chrome Mox validated the deck, and it won me games i otherwise would have been too slow to pull off.
EDIT: another option to pursue is Desire using KCI, but some people feel that KCI might as well just be played as KCI Combo, not KCI Desire. i liked KCI Desire, though. in any case, it's up to personal preference.
So far, only Land/Desire has been posted. I think that something abusing the interactions of Sunscape Familiar and Mind's Desire might be more effective, even without the Urza's Free spells.
Giving your opponent more mana doesn't matter if they're dead. If you run Heartbeat you can go head and take out Mind's Desire, the twiddle effects, and the enchant land spells. Why? Because if you take out Desires, you've moved from desires into freeze, which is a very similar, but different, deck. Also, why do you still have Tendril's in there? Especially in multiple copies? one Brain Freeze is fine, and you can use Hunting Pack if you want a non player targeting win condition. If you're going to run the twiddle effects, then Wild Growth and Fertile Ground are much better choices for your deck than Heartbeat.
Beta-Male:
1 Hunting Pack in the Board is not making the deck more (or too) complicated, and it gives you much better defense against Extraction. How are you supposed to win after Freeze and Wish have been removed? I really don't see how Desire lets you win at that point seeing as how your deck doesn't really DO anything except cast and draw itself.
i've said it before, and i'll say it again. if an opponent resolves 2 cranial extractions on you, you were going to lose anyway. (and having a hunting pack in the board won't matter if they extraction away cunning wish)
That's why you put the pack in the maindeck game two. And if you get hit with Therapy/Duress early, it can slow you down enough to get hit with extraction twice. So you want to still have a shot at winning against decks like the Rock, even after the worst case hits. Its one card, I'm pretty sure you can overcome that kind of massive disadvantage.
Im still working on a newer decklist, cuz actuall playtesting showed that too few yard recursion effects do suck, and sometimes make your entire string of spells goto hell. I think it might be more logical to go the heartbeat route. That way, you free up 9 or so slots in tap, untap stuff, but heartbeat will give you the mana, not the number of spells needed to set desire off. None the less, I will still give it a go.
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3 damage for 2 mana; it’s like playing 8 Lightning Helixes, except 4 of them have AIDS.
I have found that it is really fun if they have removed your wishes to deck them with trade secrets...its possible with the dreams and reclaims in the deck, its fun to watch them repeat secrets a few times and then moan when you recur them 15+ times (meanwhile your deck is sitting on empty).
I havn't tried the heartbeat route but I would think it would take more time to get off than others because you have to get 3+ lands in play to have enough mana to keep it up.
my version can go off t3 (have not managed a t2 win yet, still working on that) the dreams/reclaims help alot though.
The only thing I have against heartbeat is that your opponent benifits more than you do to a certain degree. Extra mana NEVER hurts, but when your opponent gets the advantage before you, he'll be laying out a whole bunch of stuff. Sure, it wont matter if you are gonna go off that turn, but what if that heartbeat allows your opponent to extract, then reclaim or nostalgic dreams it back, and extract a second time, all in one phase due to heartbeat? Too risky imo. Plus, the twiddle effects up your storm count.
And as Bogan said, its best to run one Tendrils and maybe a Freeze MD so you can use Cunning wish on something else if need be. Dawn's Reflection really isnt needed either, so you can take those out, put in another two wishes, and add one tendrils and one freeze.
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3 damage for 2 mana; it’s like playing 8 Lightning Helixes, except 4 of them have AIDS.
Sure, it wont matter if you are gonna go off that turn, but what if that heartbeat allows your opponent to extract, then reclaim or nostalgic dreams it back, and extract a second time, all in one phase due to heartbeat? Too risky imo.
When does this ever, EVER, happen? <_<
I like heartbeat. Chances are that if your opponent can't stop you, some extra mana won't allow them to.
Just wondering......is there any reason to not run a Lotus/Twiddle version compared to these, I'll call them "land manipulation" versions? Of course it was when Desire was in standard, but I'm thinking that would run as well and as fast.
Odie
Basic example from an article on Carta Magica listed below but of course there would be major updating:
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Sunscape Familiar
Spells
4 Mind's Desire
3 Dream's Grip
3 Twiddle
3 Fertile Ground
3 Harrow
3 Early Harvest
3 Cunning Wish
3 Tendrils of Agony
3 Deep Analysis
2 Brain Freeze
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Flooded Strand
1 Plains
7 Island
5 Forest
3 Yavimaya Coast
3 Pithing Needle
2 Stifle
1 Disenchant
1 Echoing Truth
1 Dream's Grip
1 Twiddle
1 Brain Freeze
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Early Harvest
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Harrow
1 Orim's Chant
I know the sideboard needs a lot of work, but obviously the needles are there for Scepter and Madness, and even Fish variants and whatnot.
EDIT: It seems that running Desire in this deck is slow, so there is some discussion about a U\G storm deck that uses brain freeze as the kill, and its been placing well online as far as i know.
Note: Do not use Mod Text... if you are not a Mod.
- Ixi v2
MD Changes
-4 Birds
-2 Fact or Fiction
-1 Tendrils
-1 Deep Analysis
-1 Brain Freeze
+4 Sakura Tribe Elder
+2 Trade Secrets (or Gifts Ungiven)
+2 Nostalgic Dreams
+1 Restock
SB Changes
-1 FoF
-1 Harrow
-1 Twiddle
+1 Counterspell
+1 Mana Short
+1 Moment's Peace
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Sunscape Familiar
Spells
4 Mind's Desire
3 Dream's Grip
3 Twiddle
3 Fertile Ground
3 Harrow
3 Early Harvest
3 Cunning Wish
2 Tendrils of Agony
2 Deep Analysis
2 Nostalgic Dreams
2 Trade Secrets (or Gifts Ungiven)
1 Brain Freeze
1 Restock
4 Flooded Strand
1 Plains
7 Island
5 Forest
3 Yavimaya Coast
3 Pithing Needle
1 Stifle
1 Gilded Light
1 Disenchant
1 Echoing Truth
1 Dream's Grip
1 Counterspell
1 Brain Freeze
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Early Harvest
1 Mana Short
1 Moment's Peace
1 Orim's Chant
4th place at CCC&G Pro Tour
Chances of bad hands (<2 or >4 land):
21: 28.9%
22: 27.5%
23: 26.3%
24: 25.5%
25: 25.1%
26: 25.3%
Also, I'd ditch the Tendrils altogether, replacing them with Gifts Ungiven. You don't really need that many win conditions, and a Hunting Pack in the board that you can bring in for game two means it would take three Extractions to kill off your deck.
Early Harvest won't untap Yavimaya Coast.
also, you're trying a bit too hard to make the desire decks more complicated than they need to be. as long as you're running Mind's Desire, Brain Freeze and Cunning Wish, it's going to take 3 extractions to finish you off....and if they resolve 3 extractions you were going to lose anyway.
-3 Yavimaya Coast
+2 Windswept Hearth
+1 Forest
On another note, I really, really like Gifts in this deck more than I did with my first build. Restock proved to be mostly useless, so they come out too. Words of wisdom is much better than Deep Anal. IMO.
-2 Deep Analysis
-2 Trade Secrets
-1 Restock
+3 Words of Wisdom
+2 Gifts Ungiven
Also, which is better to be used? Overgrowth or Fertile Ground or something else? Does Sensei's Divining Top warrant a spot somewhere in this deck?
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Sunscape Familiar
Spells (32)
4 Mind's Desire
3 Dream's Grip
3 Twiddle
3 Fertile Ground
3 Harrow
3 Early Harvest
3 Cunning Wish
3 Words of Wisdom
2 Tendrils of Agony
2 Nostalgic Dreams
2 Gifts Ungiven
1 Brain Freeze
4 Flooded Strand
1 Plains
7 Island
6 Forest
2 Windswept Hearth
3 Pithing Needle
1 Stifle
1 Twincast
1 Disenchant
1 Echoing Truth
1 Dream's Grip
1 Counterspell
1 Brain Freeze
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Early Harvest
1 Mana Short
1 Moment's Peace
1 Orim's Chant
(Deep Analysis can finish them off if you care that much)
4th place at CCC&G Pro Tour
Chances of bad hands (<2 or >4 land):
21: 28.9%
22: 27.5%
23: 26.3%
24: 25.5%
25: 25.1%
26: 25.3%
@night: Does heartbeat really work well for you? Wouldn't giving your opponent more mana be bad? Thats why I put Fertile ground in my build so its only my mana accel.
Beta-Male:
1 Hunting Pack in the Board is not making the deck more (or too) complicated, and it gives you much better defense against Extraction. How are you supposed to win after Freeze and Wish have been removed? I really don't see how Desire lets you win at that point seeing as how your deck doesn't really DO anything except cast and draw itself.
Also, where is Chrome Mox? Please don't try to argue that is doesn't have a place in here as it lets your Sakura-Tribe Elder be played first turn and is an easy spell to play for Desire.
The Real Best Legacy Poster of 2005 poll
EDIT: another option to pursue is Desire using KCI, but some people feel that KCI might as well just be played as KCI Combo, not KCI Desire. i liked KCI Desire, though. in any case, it's up to personal preference.
The Real Best Legacy Poster of 2005 poll
i've said it before, and i'll say it again. if an opponent resolves 2 cranial extractions on you, you were going to lose anyway. (and having a hunting pack in the board won't matter if they extraction away cunning wish)
4 Sunscape Familiar
2 Eternal Witness
Draw/Tutor:
3 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Mind's Desire
2 Cunning Wish
2 Nostalgic Dreams
Twiddle/Mana:
4 Wild Growth
4 Fertile Ground
3 Chrome Mox
4 Twiddle
4 Dream's Grip
3 Early Harvest
1 Brain Freeze
1 Tendrils of Agony
Mana:
6 Forest
6 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
S/B
4 Ivory Mask
3 Pithing Needle
1 Naturalize
1 Early Harvest
1 Reclaim
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Brain Freeze
1 Hunting Pack
1 Moment's Peace
1 Echoing Truth
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=519290
I need some help with the side board, keep in mind its a wishboard.
4x wild growth
4x fertile ground
4x dawn's reflection
untap (8)
4x twiddle
4x dream's grip
draw/tutor (12)
4x trade secrets
4x ideas unbound
4x mind's desire
recur (7)
4x nostalgic dreams
4x reclaim
2x cunning wish
lands (18)
2x windswept heath
3x polluted delta
2x flodded strand
3x wooded foothills
2x forest
2x island
4x forbidden orchard
1x brain freeze
1x hunting pack
1x naturalize
12x ???
I hear.
I touch.
I speak.
Do you?
The Real Best Legacy Poster of 2005 poll
I havn't tried the heartbeat route but I would think it would take more time to get off than others because you have to get 3+ lands in play to have enough mana to keep it up.
my version can go off t3 (have not managed a t2 win yet, still working on that) the dreams/reclaims help alot though.
I hear.
I touch.
I speak.
Do you?
And as Bogan said, its best to run one Tendrils and maybe a Freeze MD so you can use Cunning wish on something else if need be. Dawn's Reflection really isnt needed either, so you can take those out, put in another two wishes, and add one tendrils and one freeze.
When does this ever, EVER, happen? <_<
I like heartbeat. Chances are that if your opponent can't stop you, some extra mana won't allow them to.
4th place at CCC&G Pro Tour
Chances of bad hands (<2 or >4 land):
21: 28.9%
22: 27.5%
23: 26.3%
24: 25.5%
25: 25.1%
26: 25.3%
Odie
Basic example from an article on Carta Magica listed below but of course there would be major updating:
4x Mind's Desire
4x Twiddle
4x Dream's Grip
4x Trade Secrets
3x Thoughtcast
2x Thirst for Knowledge
2x Fabricate
4x Seething Song
2x Tendrils of Agony
4x Gilded Lotus
4x Chrome Mox
4x Talisman of Dominance
1x Talisman of Progress
1x Serum Tank
4x City of Brass
4x Seat of the Synod
4x Great Furnace
2x Vault of Whispers
3x Island
3x Pyroclasm
3x Cabal Interrogator
2x Defense Grid
2x Chain of Vapor
2x Trash for Treasure
2x Bottle Gnomes
1x Welding Jar
The Real Best Legacy Poster of 2005 poll