Any idea of a good side board for the deck? I can think of like krosan grip, cranial extraction, smothers, and mabie tormod's crypt, and engineered plague but not much more.
Cranial extraction is useful but pretty slow. Engineered plague is only useful against goblins in the current meta.
Take out a cranial extraction and an engineered plague and you'll have space for 2 smothers.:)
Original quote byTacosnape "All ideas that give me knowledge without any effort involved on my part are good ideas. Chop chop, my dear fellow."
DCI L2 Judge GP:Madrid 2010 45th GP:Amsterdam 2011 74th GP:London 2013 67th Bazaar of Moxen 2013 32nd
I'm having some mana problems with it, and I'd like to fit in 2-3 Troll ascetic. I'm willing to drop kokusho, the evening star but i like the kind of reccuring sap i can sometimes get with genesis. Also, how do i get it to the graveyard, and get it to stay. As soon as it hits the field either my opponent will ignore it, or kill it, then remove it from the graveyard. Would sudden death be good to get rid of a withered wretch before it did it's foul deed. And would wild mongrel be good as well, to try to get genesis in the graveyard?
EDIT: In playtesting against ravager-affinity, I have no idea how to deal with it. My friend is getting 9/2 ornithopters swinging at me on turn 2-3. Smother/putrefy/pernicious deed only slows him down. It takes me too long to whip out what I want. living wishing my kataki, war's wage takes me 3 turns (assuming i have living wish in my hand). I get destroyed. Any help there?
EDIT AGAIN: For the trolls, should I do -1 loxodon hierarch, -1 ravenous baloth, -1 kokusho?
You run too much white and blue mana source land. Change the hallowed fountain to fetchland/overgrown tomb. Run 6-8 fetchlands.
Don't run wild mongrels. Cabal therapy is suffice enough to get genesis in your graveyard because you can cabal yourself, saving you the trouble of casting it out.
Sudden death gets rid of wretch's ability. I recommend you putting it in place of the edicts. If your opponent is running 3-4 wretches in the deck, try not to rely on genesis too much. If you are very dependent on genesis, then you can run cranial extraction or extirpate to get rid of wretches entirely first.
Iceman and majority of gifted rocks player don't run ascetics. But I still run 2 in my deck so it depends on your style. I don't have much experience against ravager decks so I won't comment on that...
I'm having some mana problems with it, and I'd like to fit in 2-3 Troll ascetic. I'm willing to drop kokusho, the evening star but i like the kind of reccuring sap i can sometimes get with genesis. Also, how do i get it to the graveyard, and get it to stay. As soon as it hits the field either my opponent will ignore it, or kill it, then remove it from the graveyard. Would sudden death be good to get rid of a withered wretch before it did it's foul deed. And would wild mongrel be good as well, to try to get genesis in the graveyard?
EDIT: In playtesting against ravager-affinity, I have no idea how to deal with it. My friend is getting 9/2 ornithopters swinging at me on turn 2-3. Smother/putrefy/pernicious deed only slows him down. It takes me too long to whip out what I want. living wishing my kataki, war's wage takes me 3 turns (assuming i have living wish in my hand). I get destroyed. Any help there?
EDIT AGAIN: For the trolls, should I do -1 loxodon hierarch, -1 ravenous baloth, -1 kokusho?
For starters you don't want to take out ANY of your 2CC lifegain creatures. I would replace one of the Ravenous Baloth with another Loxodon Hierarch. Hierarch is just far superior to Baloth.
I would consider adding another deed in place of a putrefy. Deed is a key card vs affinity, and in other matchups when you use putrefy, you'd often be just as willing to blow up the board instead. I'd up Gifts to 4, taking out at least one edict. Gifts is the most powerful card in the deck, and multiple edicts tend to be redundant.
I agree that matchup vs affinity can be trouble, but remember that mana acceleration is key. Ideally you have t3 kataki or deed their board asap, but even dropping heirarch t3 or gifting to set up t5 kataki/deed/double putrefy will do the job well.
That's the new decklist. I haven't playtested against ravager-affinity yet, but I really need someone to describe the advantages of golgari-rot farm. I've maintained that the bounce lands are far too slow for competitive. Especially against BDW and affinity (and to a lesser extent, tog). Turn 1 I'm losing 1-3 life whether or not i get fetches/birds/therapy. Laying golgari rot farm on turn 2 puts me back a turn, unless I have a 1 drop to play with my birds. Is rotfarm for late-game? Also, for decks like azorioustron and TEPs, is it enough to rely on cranial extraction and duress for control? Do I need to put anything else on my sideboard? What's the mirror match look like? I really like trooll ascetic, why do people think it's weak? It's a solid creature that's untargetable and regeneratable. Against control decks, it's a pretty good card unless they wrath/deed. Also, I just noticed I'm running a lot of 2 of's, does that affect consistancy? I'm pretty new to this level of competitive play, and for PTQs I want to make sure I'm as prepared as possible. I'm playing in NY (march 11) and I'm wondering if i have anything to gain from planar chaos? Won't it rotate in by then?
EDIT: With only 7 basics, should i drop sakura tribe elder for wall of roots?
I'd turn the three putrefys into Putrefy, Mortify, Vindicate. This gives you a lot more versatility and lets you gift for all of them. I'd also cut an edict for another Gifts, and finally, I'd lose two elders for another two wall of roots. Rot Farm lets you keep low land hands against other slow decks. You t1 birds, then t2 wish for rot-farm and play it, t3 untap with four mana off of a one land hand. Of course, this is a very BAD plan against boros.
That's the new decklist. I haven't playtested against ravager-affinity yet, but I really need someone to describe the advantages of golgari-rot farm. I've maintained that the bounce lands are far too slow for competitive. Especially against BDW and affinity (and to a lesser extent, tog). Turn 1 I'm losing 1-3 life whether or not i get fetches/birds/therapy. Laying golgari rot farm on turn 2 puts me back a turn, unless I have a 1 drop to play with my birds. Is rotfarm for late-game? Also, for decks like azorioustron and TEPs, is it enough to rely on cranial extraction and duress for control? Do I need to put anything else on my sideboard? What's the mirror match look like? I really like trooll ascetic, why do people think it's weak? It's a solid creature that's untargetable and regeneratable. Against control decks, it's a pretty good card unless they wrath/deed. Also, I just noticed I'm running a lot of 2 of's, does that affect consistancy? I'm pretty new to this level of competitive play, and for PTQs I want to make sure I'm as prepared as possible. I'm playing in NY (march 11) and I'm wondering if i have anything to gain from planar chaos? Won't it rotate in by then?
EDIT: With only 7 basics, should i drop sakura tribe elder for wall of roots?
Troll sucks because it's more efficient as an aggro card than a control card, and you're going to be playing "control" against most of the matchups out there. With the deck's game plan, it's more important to have the lifegain and the bigger body that it is to be untargettable and regenerating.
STE is essential, even though you don't have that many basics in the deck. Wall of roots doesn't fix mana and also sometimes turns your opponent's removal into land destruction. It's not a closed case at all though, depending on the amount (and type) of aggro in the meta.
Rot farm is one of the best cards in the deck. Tempo isn't nearly as important as card and mana advantage. You're usually not going to use every scrap of mana turns 1-4, and it's very very very very important to hit your land drops.
Mirror can be tricky because essentially the deck can go aggro or control. You can win off a quick elephant, or you can try to nullify the threats (attacking opp's hand, gy, land). Often times it'll depend on your and your opponent's draw, and you need to be able to figure out your role each game and go from there.
Troll Ascetic is a bad card for this deck. Its not an answer card. It doesn't help to improve any of your bad matchups. It should really be another Loxodon Hierarch. We can use that other spot later on.
I notice that most of your deck is geared to beating aggro. What do you do against control? Usually, I prefer to run two copies of Duress maindeck instead of the extra kill spells. I'd recommend cutting the Sudden Deaths from the deck in place of Duress. Also, Chainer's Edict is at its best as a one-of. Its only really good versus control, as against aggro, they'll always sac whichever creature is most useless. I'd put either a Smother or Mortify in its place.
I'd also cut an edict for another Gifts, and finally, I'd lose two elders for another two wall of roots.
I've found that a split of two Sakura-Tribe Elders and two Wall of Roots is a really good fix. It still allows mana fixing/accelerator while also giving you a good sized body against BDW. I also think that playing four Gifts Ungiven is a bit much. You don't want to draw a Gifts too early, as it gives them a chance to rip it from your hand, and usually playing just one is enough to win the game.
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How is the matchup for Gifts Rock (w/ Flow) against U/W tron and other control?
My PTQ is PC legal and with all the decent finishes that my first choice (TEPS - 2 wins and 3 other T8's in North America alone so far) is having in early PTQ's and all the hate starting to show up for it, I'm considering changing decks.
How is the matchup for Gifts Rock (w/ Flow) against U/W tron and other control?
My PTQ is PC legal and with all the decent finishes that my first choice (TEPS - 2 wins and 3 other T8's in North America alone so far) is having in early PTQ's and all the hate starting to show up for it, I'm considering changing decks.
Gifts Rock doesn't play Destructive Flow. It relies on too many non-basic lands.
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Please, everyone help me keep these to a minimum...
Originally posted by Kijin You're clearly not metagaming for decktags. This deck is so speedy that you must have forgotten deck tags. DECKTAGS, MOTHER *wooo*, DO YOU USE THEM? What are decktags? Baby, don't forget them. Don't forget them no more. What's bold and red and full of text? Your post after I add deck tags to it.
Agreed, it's probably your worst matchup. Depends a bit on what version you're playing against, but you still have a chance. Therapy away their card draw or counters. You can then Wish for Boseiju, Gifts, Global Ruin/Cranial/Echoes/Plow Under.
SB in Duress and Global Ruin. Echoes, Cranial, and Plow Under don't do much if your opponent has and is able to play their counters.
The saving grace is that most Tron decks don't run the full counter suite like Tog or Chant does. Since their game plan is to stall until they hit mana, they have to let a few spells through, barring the nut draw. Basically, you have a small window after they run out of counters, but before they start playing threats to resolve your business spells. You have to do anything you can to make that window larger, either by exhausting their counters early with discard, or stalling their mana with vindicate/putrefy/deed.
to win against tron you have to wish for boseiju, is the only way, you have to play dures+cabal also to avoi the counters, then gifts for cranial+witness+gostquarter+lifefrom the loam or global ruin or plw under
Boseiju is bad, like really terrible as a wish target. It's not like tooth where you can get by with at most three activations to win. The spells you're trying to protect only set you up for the win (cranial, gifts, plow, ruin). If you use it on any spell of consequence, it'll cost you a ton of life in the end. Note too that you can't use it for witness and ruin blows it up.
Again, unlike chant or tog, they don't have that many counters (6-8, usually). It's much easier to run the out with discard than trying to protect your non-creature spells.
you say that boseiju is game winning card, but firstly you can't straightly win with it,it helps you to bring in some spells. but secondly, if you resolve cranial, what is your target?? single, even double(with witness) cranial is not enough to win.
imo as few others said before, 4of duress and therapies packed with global ruin is the best option.
Good luck resolving a global ruin against tron
You could with a boseiju though :o:)
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I'd take out the Tormod's Crypt. You're already running Withered Wretch maindeck. I don't think you really need the redundancy.
Take out a cranial extraction and an engineered plague and you'll have space for 2 smothers.:)
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GP:Madrid 2010 45th
GP:Amsterdam 2011 74th
GP:London 2013 67th
Bazaar of Moxen 2013 32nd
Whatever is needed at the time: Cat, Human/Wizard, or Soltari/Priest.
3 Swamp
2 Breeding Pool
1 Island
1 Plains
4 Forest
2 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
1 Miren, the Moaning Well
2 Temple Garden
1 Hallowed Fountain
2 Overgrown Tomb
Creatures - 18
2 Wall of Roots
3 Eternal Witness
1 Genesis
3 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Kokusho, the Evening Star
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Loxodon Hierarch
2 Ravenous Baloth
3 Putrefy
3 Chainer's Edict
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Living Wish
2 Smother
3 Gifts Ungiven
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Global Ruin
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Withered Wretch
1 Meloku the Clouded Mirror
1 Harmonic Sliver
3 Duress
2 Krosan Grip
3 Cranial Extraction
I'm having some mana problems with it, and I'd like to fit in 2-3 Troll ascetic. I'm willing to drop kokusho, the evening star but i like the kind of reccuring sap i can sometimes get with genesis. Also, how do i get it to the graveyard, and get it to stay. As soon as it hits the field either my opponent will ignore it, or kill it, then remove it from the graveyard. Would sudden death be good to get rid of a withered wretch before it did it's foul deed. And would wild mongrel be good as well, to try to get genesis in the graveyard?
EDIT: In playtesting against ravager-affinity, I have no idea how to deal with it. My friend is getting 9/2 ornithopters swinging at me on turn 2-3. Smother/putrefy/pernicious deed only slows him down. It takes me too long to whip out what I want. living wishing my kataki, war's wage takes me 3 turns (assuming i have living wish in my hand). I get destroyed. Any help there?
EDIT AGAIN: For the trolls, should I do -1 loxodon hierarch, -1 ravenous baloth, -1 kokusho?
Banner by Mr. Stuff
My Trades
Don't run wild mongrels. Cabal therapy is suffice enough to get genesis in your graveyard because you can cabal yourself, saving you the trouble of casting it out.
Sudden death gets rid of wretch's ability. I recommend you putting it in place of the edicts. If your opponent is running 3-4 wretches in the deck, try not to rely on genesis too much. If you are very dependent on genesis, then you can run cranial extraction or extirpate to get rid of wretches entirely first.
Iceman and majority of gifted rocks player don't run ascetics. But I still run 2 in my deck so it depends on your style. I don't have much experience against ravager decks so I won't comment on that...
For starters you don't want to take out ANY of your 2CC lifegain creatures. I would replace one of the Ravenous Baloth with another Loxodon Hierarch. Hierarch is just far superior to Baloth.
Cut the Kokusho, the Evening Star. Its too slow and we have no need of flashy win conditions.
Here are a few changes I'd suggest to help the mana base:
Replace Miren, the Moaning Well with another Windswept Heath. Fetchlands are very important in this deck. Also, change out the Flooded Strands with Polluted Deltas. Black is a more important color, and you want to be able to hit it consistantly. Cut two Swamps for a Godless Shrine and an Overgrown Tomb. I'd also suggest taking out a Forest and a Temple Garden for two Golgari Rot Farms. Its really important to hit all your land drops in this deck, and the Rot Farm makes that easier.
I agree that matchup vs affinity can be trouble, but remember that mana acceleration is key. Ideally you have t3 kataki or deed their board asap, but even dropping heirarch t3 or gifting to set up t5 kataki/deed/double putrefy will do the job well.
2 Breeding Pool
2 Polluted Delta
4 Windswept Heath
2 Temple Garden
3 Overgrown Tomb
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Godless Shrine
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Forest
Creatures - 17
2 Wall of Roots
2 Troll Ascetic
3 Eternal Witness
1 Genesis
3 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Loxodon Hierarch
1 Ravenous Baloth
3 Putrefy
2 Chainer's Edict
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Living Wish
2 Sudden Death
3 Gifts Ungiven
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Global Ruin
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Withered Wretch
1 Meloku the Clouded Mirror
1 Harmonic Sliver
3 Duress
2 Sudden Death
3 Cranial Extraction
That's the new decklist. I haven't playtested against ravager-affinity yet, but I really need someone to describe the advantages of golgari-rot farm. I've maintained that the bounce lands are far too slow for competitive. Especially against BDW and affinity (and to a lesser extent, tog). Turn 1 I'm losing 1-3 life whether or not i get fetches/birds/therapy. Laying golgari rot farm on turn 2 puts me back a turn, unless I have a 1 drop to play with my birds. Is rotfarm for late-game? Also, for decks like azorioustron and TEPs, is it enough to rely on cranial extraction and duress for control? Do I need to put anything else on my sideboard? What's the mirror match look like? I really like trooll ascetic, why do people think it's weak? It's a solid creature that's untargetable and regeneratable. Against control decks, it's a pretty good card unless they wrath/deed. Also, I just noticed I'm running a lot of 2 of's, does that affect consistancy? I'm pretty new to this level of competitive play, and for PTQs I want to make sure I'm as prepared as possible. I'm playing in NY (march 11) and I'm wondering if i have anything to gain from planar chaos? Won't it rotate in by then?
EDIT: With only 7 basics, should i drop sakura tribe elder for wall of roots?
Banner by Mr. Stuff
My Trades
Troll sucks because it's more efficient as an aggro card than a control card, and you're going to be playing "control" against most of the matchups out there. With the deck's game plan, it's more important to have the lifegain and the bigger body that it is to be untargettable and regenerating.
STE is essential, even though you don't have that many basics in the deck. Wall of roots doesn't fix mana and also sometimes turns your opponent's removal into land destruction. It's not a closed case at all though, depending on the amount (and type) of aggro in the meta.
Rot farm is one of the best cards in the deck. Tempo isn't nearly as important as card and mana advantage. You're usually not going to use every scrap of mana turns 1-4, and it's very very very very important to hit your land drops.
Mirror can be tricky because essentially the deck can go aggro or control. You can win off a quick elephant, or you can try to nullify the threats (attacking opp's hand, gy, land). Often times it'll depend on your and your opponent's draw, and you need to be able to figure out your role each game and go from there.
Troll Ascetic is a bad card for this deck. Its not an answer card. It doesn't help to improve any of your bad matchups. It should really be another Loxodon Hierarch. We can use that other spot later on.
I notice that most of your deck is geared to beating aggro. What do you do against control? Usually, I prefer to run two copies of Duress maindeck instead of the extra kill spells. I'd recommend cutting the Sudden Deaths from the deck in place of Duress. Also, Chainer's Edict is at its best as a one-of. Its only really good versus control, as against aggro, they'll always sac whichever creature is most useless. I'd put either a Smother or Mortify in its place.
Here is the list I'm running:
4x Windswept Heath
2x Polluted Delta
3x Overgrown Tomb
2x Breeding Pool
1x Temple Garden
1x Godless Shrine
1x Hallowed Fountain
2x Golgari Rot Farm
3x Forest
1x Swamp
1x Plains
1x Island
Creatures
4x Birds of Paradise
2x Sakura-Tribe Elder
2x Wall of Roots
3x Eternal Witness
3x Loxodon Hierarch
1x Ravenous Baloth
1x Genesis
4x Cabal Therepy
2x Duress
3x Living Wish
1x Chainer's Edict
1x Smother
3x Pernicious Deed
2x Putrefy
1x Deep Analysis
3x Gifts Ungiven
1x Plow Under
1x Global Ruin
1x Golgari Rot Farm
1x Loaming Shaman
1x Carven Caryatid
1x Eternal Witness
1x Kataki, War's Wage
1x Harmonic Sliver
1x Loxodon Hierarch
1x Meloku the Clouded Mirror
3x Krosan Grip
2x Duress
2x Cranial Extraction
It gives a lot of flexibility for all match types and is consistant with its mana.
I've found that a split of two Sakura-Tribe Elders and two Wall of Roots is a really good fix. It still allows mana fixing/accelerator while also giving you a good sized body against BDW. I also think that playing four Gifts Ungiven is a bit much. You don't want to draw a Gifts too early, as it gives them a chance to rip it from your hand, and usually playing just one is enough to win the game.
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What I'm playing/building for casual:
Batman
Dragon's Errand
:symrg:Stoking the Flames:symgr:
Midsummer Night's Dream
[EDH] Oona, Queen of the Fae
You'll be living in a van down by the River Kelpie
This is the Ext forum....
Thanks to PurpleD of Left Play Designs for this amazing banner!
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What I'm playing/building for casual:
Batman
Dragon's Errand
:symrg:Stoking the Flames:symgr:
Midsummer Night's Dream
[EDH] Oona, Queen of the Fae
You'll be living in a van down by the River Kelpie
My PTQ is PC legal and with all the decent finishes that my first choice (TEPS - 2 wins and 3 other T8's in North America alone so far) is having in early PTQ's and all the hate starting to show up for it, I'm considering changing decks.
Gifts Rock doesn't play Destructive Flow. It relies on too many non-basic lands.
Ahh, good to know. Wrong thread then - seems there isn't one for Flow Rock.
Please, everyone help me keep these to a minimum...
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=378565
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The saving grace is that most Tron decks don't run the full counter suite like Tog or Chant does. Since their game plan is to stall until they hit mana, they have to let a few spells through, barring the nut draw. Basically, you have a small window after they run out of counters, but before they start playing threats to resolve your business spells. You have to do anything you can to make that window larger, either by exhausting their counters early with discard, or stalling their mana with vindicate/putrefy/deed.
Boseiju is bad, like really terrible as a wish target. It's not like tooth where you can get by with at most three activations to win. The spells you're trying to protect only set you up for the win (cranial, gifts, plow, ruin). If you use it on any spell of consequence, it'll cost you a ton of life in the end. Note too that you can't use it for witness and ruin blows it up.
Again, unlike chant or tog, they don't have that many counters (6-8, usually). It's much easier to run the out with discard than trying to protect your non-creature spells.
Good luck resolving a global ruin against tron
You could with a boseiju though :o:)