.....so you paid 3 mana for a 1/1 flier and 1 life? I guess I forgot the goal of this deck is to make plays so underwhelming that your opponent falls off his chair laughing and has to forfeit after he passes out from lack of oxygen. My bad.
He was presenting a worst case senario so I presented a solution to his worst case senario, which is pretty bad, because If you have no bauables on the table turn 4-6, something is terribly wrong, after all it is worst case scenario. Flame off.
Ideally you will sack a wellspring, next a prism, then anything else to your foundry to make a blocker, to me foundry acts as a way to turn fuel into damage prevention in tight spots, it is a two of at most because of the nature of the card. I run it also to deversify win cons and pithing needle targets. For win cons I run: 1-2 Foundry, 2 Tezz Seeker, 1 Tezz Agent of Bolas, and 1 glassdust hulk.
So what can this deck do against aggro strategies? My friends and I have been testing this deck and it loses to aggro a lot. Is this just how the deck is, or are there certain cards that work better. I don't have the list as I am not the one with the deck, but I can get it tomorrow.
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Currently Playing
Standard: Esper Control | UWR Flash --- Modern: Melira Pod | Splinter Twin
So what can this deck do against aggro strategies? My friends and I have been testing this deck and it loses to aggro a lot. Is this just how the deck is, or are there certain cards that work better. I don't have the list as I am not the one with the deck, but I can get it tomorrow.
Oh that's not all SB, those are all just cards withing the 75 cards of my decklist. My valakut tech is leyline of sanctity, cryptic command and the extra spell pierce in my SB.
My Fae sideboarding plan is to bring in ratchet bombs, spell pierce and ethersworn canonist.
Oh that's not all SB, those are all just cards withing the 75 cards of my decklist. My valakut tech is leyline of sanctity, cryptic command and the extra spell pierce in my SB.
My Fae sideboarding plan is to bring in ratchet bombs, spell pierce and ethersworn canonist.
Canonist beats Fae because they can only counter one spell. It means they can never cast a vendillion clique or a mistbind clique with counter mana up. which they do regularly.
Canonist also beats elves, GW trap and can come in against some builds of jund and 5cc. It's a very powerful, very underrated card.
Also, did anyone see the time sieve deck that just top 4'd some ptq in germany? I know it's not a super huge deal but at least the deck is making some progress on the competitive scene.
That's a fine build. It does a lot of things right:
Cryptic Command is good at 1-2 to protect your Tezz Ultimate turn, but 4 is too many because often you will not get triple blue on the critical turn, plus two mana fogs are better in this deck than 4 mana fogs.
Mox Opal is incredibly powerful, but cutting basics hurts quite a bit. 2-3 is right, but if you go 3, don't go below 14 land.
Tezz the Seeker is superior in the fog version of the deck. Agent Tezz is powerful but you'd have to change your strategy to accommodate him.
Idk about Thopter Foundry. I don't like it unless I'm sure I'm going to play against faeries three times. It's so mana intensive and doesn't topdeck well.
So far I've been really impressed with Sphere of the Suns. There was one game last night were I was able to accelerate and go off on Turn 3. Granted I did top deck a couple bangers, but still! I like this build but I'm not sure Jace is good. He curves out well and draws you cards but I'm not yet certain he shouldn't be something else. Only time and testing will tell I suppose.
That's a fine build. It does a lot of things right:
Cryptic Command is good at 1-2 to protect your Tezz Ultimate turn, but 4 is too many because often you will not get triple blue on the critical turn, plus two mana fogs are better in this deck than 4 mana fogs.
Mox Opal is incredibly powerful, but cutting basics hurts quite a bit. 2-3 is right, but if you go 3, don't go below 14 land.
Tezz the Seeker is superior in the fog version of the deck. Agent Tezz is powerful but you'd have to change your strategy to accommodate him.
Idk about Thopter Foundry. I don't like it unless I'm sure I'm going to play against faeries three times. It's so mana intensive and doesn't topdeck well.
Good post, I was gonna ask about the right number of cryptics. All 8 borderposts is the right number to run? How many non-artifact spells do you think this deck can comfortably fit in the main. 2 tezz, 3-4 OtV and 4 time warp of course but beyond that I would like 2 cryptic, 4 spell pierce and some combination of 4 fog angle removal effects (maybe 2 pollen lullaby + 2 path). Is that getting too greedy?
Also, I've seen the argument about semblance anvil and I agree it is not a great card for the deck. However, what about etherium sculptor? Is turning on removal too much of a disadvantage to use him?
Blood Braid Elf is underplayed in standard now. She was in practically every deck, but after October people just suddenly stopped running her in their 75. Weird considering how good she is.
8 Borderposts has been the convention for some time, of course we all know how conventions are broken all the time. I'd think about experimenting with -1 borderpost +1 land or +1 mox but the thing is, a hand with one basic one borderpost can do a lot more than one basic one mox, so mox would be a risky replacement. As for -boderpost + basic, that sounds like it could help hit an untapped fifth or sixth land drop. I'd have to play a couple hundred games to know for sure.
I've been liking two Cryptics +6 other fogs, 4 Lullabies and 2 Angelsong. Hitting a fog-type effect is so important that you need 7+ in your deck to reasonably see one on turn four. Idk about Spell Pierce. What I'm really afraid of right now is elves. Sometimes they kill you on turn four, and if they are on the play, that means your only way to win is to double fog. I don't like md Spell Pierce against elves, or the other thing that terrifies me, Qasali Pridemage. Countering Maelstrom Pulse is great but I expect Jund to be only ~8% of the metagame.
8 Borderposts has been the convention for some time, of course we all know how conventions are broken all the time. I'd think about experimenting with -1 borderpost +1 land or +1 mox but the thing is, a hand with one basic one borderpost can do a lot more than one basic one mox, so mox would be a risky replacement. As for -boderpost + basic, that sounds like it could help hit an untapped fifth or sixth land drop. I'd have to play a couple hundred games to know for sure.
I've been liking two Cryptics +6 other fogs, 4 Lullabies and 2 Angelsong. Hitting a fog-type effect is so important that you need 7+ in your deck to reasonably see one on turn four. Idk about Spell Pierce. What I'm really afraid of right now is elves. Sometimes they kill you on turn four, and if they are on the play, that means your only way to win is to double fog. I don't like md Spell Pierce against elves, or the other thing that terrifies me, Qasali Pridemage. Countering Maelstrom Pulse is great but I expect Jund to be only ~8% of the metagame.
Spell pierce would be mainly for fae to hit turn 2 bitterblossom and also for uw control to protect important spells. I guess with uw playing more aggressively fog effects might be more important. In my experience against elves (albeit not playing time sieve) dropping one sweeper is basically game. Especially true for combo elves that don't play some kind of back up plan (i.e. vengevines). If you're packing Ratchet bombs and dojs + your fog effects it seems like you should be fine, although I don't know how much you can comfortably take out and still be consistent. Which reminds me of another question. Can someone give me some general sideboarding advice? Seems like there's not much room to move stuff around.
Few more questions. Why are most people rocking temple bell instead of font of mythos? Is Jund as unwinnable as it looks on paper to me?
Blood Braid Elf is underplayed in standard now. She was in practically every deck, but after October people just suddenly stopped running her in their 75. Weird considering how good she is.
Basically you play Semblance Anvil and then essentially vomit your deck onto the board, filter some mana through prisms and stuff for a Time Sieve, and then you can take an extra turn as early as turn 3. Then you go crazy with Open the Vaults, return your artifacts, rip through the rest of your deck, cast one of the Tezzerets, proliferate using a Throne of Geth, and then use the ultimate to kill the opponent.
Thoughts?
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"That's the funny thing about free will. You don't feel any different without it."
EDH: RWU Zedruu, the Greathearted BUG Damia, Sage of Stone
I'm feeling really good about this list. It's getting much tighter and I think a lot of these numbers and card choices are correct. What are everyone's thoughts?
My thought is that I wish people would read the whole thread before commenting as that idea has already been discussed ALOT.
Its also a terrible strategy setting yourself up to lose a lot of card advantage.
I looked through the whole thread and saw that the only one who had made a list similar to mine was Jacob Van Lunen, and his was a budget version that wasn't running Everflowing Chalice. That means that his can't possibly combo off on turn 3, whereas mine can by filtering Chalice mana through Prophetic Prisms and using Sphere of the Suns to produce the colored mana.
He also didn't have Throne of Geth, which can allow Tezzeret (either one) to win the turn he comes into play.
And also, just because you hold the personal opinion that Semblance Anvil doesn't work doesn't mean it isn't a viable strategy.
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"That's the funny thing about free will. You don't feel any different without it."
EDH: RWU Zedruu, the Greathearted BUG Damia, Sage of Stone
Basically you play Semblance Anvil and then essentially vomit your deck onto the board, filter some mana through prisms and stuff for a Time Sieve, and then you can take an extra turn as early as turn 3. Then you go crazy with Open the Vaults, return your artifacts, rip through the rest of your deck, cast one of the Tezzerets, proliferate using a Throne of Geth, and then use the ultimate to kill the opponent.
Thoughts?
Very interesting. Seems possible to me. I'm a little weirded out by the lack of timewarp and don't see how you go turn 3 TS to turn 4 open the vaults. OtV is 6 right?
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[Legacy]
ANT
Imperial Painter
Very interesting. Seems possible to me. I'm a little weirded out by the lack of timewarp and don't see how you go turn 3 TS to turn 4 open the vaults. OtV is 6 right?
Oops...yeah turn 4 OtV probably won't happen. But at least you get an extra turn to build up mana and drop more artifacts, right?
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"That's the funny thing about free will. You don't feel any different without it."
EDH: RWU Zedruu, the Greathearted BUG Damia, Sage of Stone
Oops...yeah turn 4 OtV probably won't happen. But at least you get an extra turn to build up mana and drop more artifacts, right?
Ya makes sense to me, the way I see it you'll be able to take two turns in a row off of Time Sieve.... then Open the Vault and hopefully win.
I don't know that you need four tezzeret, maybe pick one and run 2, your going to do a ton of drawing, I think that gives you extra deck space just in case.
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Imperial Painter
Ya makes sense to me, the way I see it you'll be able to take two turns in a row off of Time Sieve.... then Open the Vault and hopefully win.
I don't know that you need four tezzeret, maybe pick one and run 2, your going to do a ton of drawing, I think that gives you extra deck space just in case.
It is actually possible to OtV on your first extra turn after your turn 3, but it requires a good mix of Chalices, Wellsprings, and Prophetic Prisms to produce 6 mana on turn 4. It's not impossible, just pretty unlikely.
Good idea on cutting down on Tezzerets. I think I might actually go with 2 of the old Tezzeret, but I'm not sure. It is easier to get 4 artifacts out than 10, but you then have to win through their creatures that they've probably played. Maybe 1/1? And then add in 2 Time Warps.
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"That's the funny thing about free will. You don't feel any different without it."
EDH: RWU Zedruu, the Greathearted BUG Damia, Sage of Stone
Very interesting. Seems possible to me. I'm a little weirded out by the lack of timewarp and don't see how you go turn 3 TS to turn 4 open the vaults. OtV is 6 right?
And this is possible. Using semblence anvil, we will always get 1 mana off of chalice, and 1 mana off of sphere. If you go.
Turn 1: Borderpost (1 mana)
Turn 2: Land -> Sphere (3 mana)
Turn 3: Land -> Anvil off of borderpost and lands with dispel mana up, exile artifact (probably a borderpost), do as many cantrips as you can (some of which are prophetic prisms and chalices), time sieve off of a chalice through a prism and the sphere, take an extra turn. (5+ mana, if played right, 6 mana)
Turn 3.1: Land -> Open the Vaults with dispel mana up, Take an extra turn.
Turn 3.2: Land -> Planeswalker (Probably Tezz 1.0), Throne of geth to proliferate tezz. Ultimate and swing with a lot of 5/5's. Win.
That said, cards the deck list above probably wants to maindeck:
2-3 Dispel/Spell Pierce
2-3 Time Warp
Borderposts
The problem with a semblance anvil build appart from all of the previously mentioned reasons that it is inferior, is that you can't pack as much protection. There are a few required cards to protect yourself in this deck.
Some combination of these cards needs to be in every maindeck. whether you focus on a turbofog version for an aggro meta, a counterspell package for a control meta, or a mixture you need to have these cards. This deck isn't consistently fast enough to win before the turn 3 goldfish of a red-deck, or a fight through blightnings and maelstrom pulses from jund.
He was presenting a worst case senario so I presented a solution to his worst case senario, which is pretty bad, because If you have no bauables on the table turn 4-6, something is terribly wrong, after all it is worst case scenario. Flame off.
Ideally you will sack a wellspring, next a prism, then anything else to your foundry to make a blocker, to me foundry acts as a way to turn fuel into damage prevention in tight spots, it is a two of at most because of the nature of the card. I run it also to deversify win cons and pithing needle targets. For win cons I run: 1-2 Foundry, 2 Tezz Seeker, 1 Tezz Agent of Bolas, and 1 glassdust hulk.
Currently Playing
Standard: Esper Control | UWR Flash --- Modern: Melira Pod | Splinter Twin
Cryptic command, Pollen Lullaby, path to exile, day of judgment, and Ratchet bomb are all somewhere in my 75 to deal with aggro. Tinker with all those and adjust the numbers according to which decks you expect to see.
Heroes of the Plane Studios is awesome.
Decks
Mono black control
BUG :symb::symu::symg:
EXT:
Time Sieve :symw::symu::symb:
T1.5
Eva Depths :symg::symb:
EDH:
Glissa, the traitor :symb::symg:
Currently dreaming up:
T2- Eldrazi BUG :symg::symu::symb:
EXT- Superfriends 2.0 :symu::symw::symr:
"I'd like to buy a bowel" - wheel of torture
Whats your faerie and valakut teck? That looks like a lot of slots in the SB to aggro, and feel like that much might be unnecessary.
My Fae sideboarding plan is to bring in ratchet bombs, spell pierce and ethersworn canonist.
Heroes of the Plane Studios is awesome.
Decks
Mono black control
BUG :symb::symu::symg:
EXT:
Time Sieve :symw::symu::symb:
T1.5
Eva Depths :symg::symb:
EDH:
Glissa, the traitor :symb::symg:
Currently dreaming up:
T2- Eldrazi BUG :symg::symu::symb:
EXT- Superfriends 2.0 :symu::symw::symr:
"I'd like to buy a bowel" - wheel of torture
How is canonist good against fae?
edit: or anyone, for that matter
Canonist was included originally to stop cascade.
Canonist beats Fae because they can only counter one spell. It means they can never cast a vendillion clique or a mistbind clique with counter mana up. which they do regularly.
Canonist also beats elves, GW trap and can come in against some builds of jund and 5cc. It's a very powerful, very underrated card.
Also, did anyone see the time sieve deck that just top 4'd some ptq in germany? I know it's not a super huge deal but at least the deck is making some progress on the competitive scene.
Time Sieve
By: Julian Plagge
2011 PTQ Nagoya - DüsseldorfExtended
Archive: http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=787109
2 Tezzeret the Seeker
2 Angelsong
1 Cryptic Command
4 Fieldmist Borderpost
4 Howling Mine
4 Ichor Wellspring
4 Mistvein Borderpost
3 Mox Opal
4 Open the Vaults
2 Pollen Lullaby
4 Prophetic Prism
3 Temple Bell
2 Thopter Foundry
4 Time Sieve
3 Time Warp
4 Marsh Flats
2 Plains
2 Swamp
2 Angelsong
1 Day of Judgment
4 Disfigure
1 Glassdust Hulk
1 Jace Beleren
3 Silence
3 Spell Pierce
Heroes of the Plane Studios is awesome.
Decks
Mono black control
BUG :symb::symu::symg:
EXT:
Time Sieve :symw::symu::symb:
T1.5
Eva Depths :symg::symb:
EDH:
Glissa, the traitor :symb::symg:
Currently dreaming up:
T2- Eldrazi BUG :symg::symu::symb:
EXT- Superfriends 2.0 :symu::symw::symr:
"I'd like to buy a bowel" - wheel of torture
That's a fine build. It does a lot of things right:
Cryptic Command is good at 1-2 to protect your Tezz Ultimate turn, but 4 is too many because often you will not get triple blue on the critical turn, plus two mana fogs are better in this deck than 4 mana fogs.
Mox Opal is incredibly powerful, but cutting basics hurts quite a bit. 2-3 is right, but if you go 3, don't go below 14 land.
Tezz the Seeker is superior in the fog version of the deck. Agent Tezz is powerful but you'd have to change your strategy to accommodate him.
Idk about Thopter Foundry. I don't like it unless I'm sure I'm going to play against faeries three times. It's so mana intensive and doesn't topdeck well.
7 Island
3 Plains
2 Swamp
2 Marsh Flats
Artifacts:
4 Fieldmist Borderpost
4 Mistvein Borderpost
4 Howling Mine
4 Ichor Wellspring
4 Sphere of the Suns
3 Time Sieve
3 Prophetic Prism
2 Glassdust Hulk
4 Open the Vaults
4 Time Warp
2 Pollen Lullaby
2 Angelsong
2 Cryptic Command
Planeswalkers:
2 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
2 Jace Beleren
So far I've been really impressed with Sphere of the Suns. There was one game last night were I was able to accelerate and go off on Turn 3. Granted I did top deck a couple bangers, but still! I like this build but I'm not sure Jace is good. He curves out well and draws you cards but I'm not yet certain he shouldn't be something else. Only time and testing will tell I suppose.
Good post, I was gonna ask about the right number of cryptics. All 8 borderposts is the right number to run? How many non-artifact spells do you think this deck can comfortably fit in the main. 2 tezz, 3-4 OtV and 4 time warp of course but beyond that I would like 2 cryptic, 4 spell pierce and some combination of 4 fog angle removal effects (maybe 2 pollen lullaby + 2 path). Is that getting too greedy?
Also, I've seen the argument about semblance anvil and I agree it is not a great card for the deck. However, what about etherium sculptor? Is turning on removal too much of a disadvantage to use him?
I've been liking two Cryptics +6 other fogs, 4 Lullabies and 2 Angelsong. Hitting a fog-type effect is so important that you need 7+ in your deck to reasonably see one on turn four. Idk about Spell Pierce. What I'm really afraid of right now is elves. Sometimes they kill you on turn four, and if they are on the play, that means your only way to win is to double fog. I don't like md Spell Pierce against elves, or the other thing that terrifies me, Qasali Pridemage. Countering Maelstrom Pulse is great but I expect Jund to be only ~8% of the metagame.
Spell pierce would be mainly for fae to hit turn 2 bitterblossom and also for uw control to protect important spells. I guess with uw playing more aggressively fog effects might be more important. In my experience against elves (albeit not playing time sieve) dropping one sweeper is basically game. Especially true for combo elves that don't play some kind of back up plan (i.e. vengevines). If you're packing Ratchet bombs and dojs + your fog effects it seems like you should be fine, although I don't know how much you can comfortably take out and still be consistent. Which reminds me of another question. Can someone give me some general sideboarding advice? Seems like there's not much room to move stuff around.
Few more questions. Why are most people rocking temple bell instead of font of mythos? Is Jund as unwinnable as it looks on paper to me?
Semblance Anvil + 2-mana cantrip artifacts.
Here's a list:
4 Semblance Anvil
4 Kaleidostone
4 Prophetic Prism
4 Ichor Wellspring
4 Everflowing Chalice
4 Sphere of the Suns
3 Throne of Geth
4 Time Sieve
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
4 Open the Vaults
4 Darkslick Shores
4 Seachrome Coast
4 Marsh Flats
2 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Island
Basically you play Semblance Anvil and then essentially vomit your deck onto the board, filter some mana through prisms and stuff for a Time Sieve, and then you can take an extra turn as early as turn 3. Then you go crazy with Open the Vaults, return your artifacts, rip through the rest of your deck, cast one of the Tezzerets, proliferate using a Throne of Geth, and then use the ultimate to kill the opponent.
Thoughts?
EDH:
RWU Zedruu, the Greathearted
BUG Damia, Sage of Stone
Its also a terrible strategy setting yourself up to lose a lot of card advantage.
7 Island
3 Plains
2 Swamp
2 Marsh Flats
Artifacts:
4 Fieldmist Borderpost
4 Mistvein Borderpost
4 Howling Mine
4 Ichor Wellspring
3 Sphere of the Suns
3 Prophetic Prism
3 Time Sieve
2 Amulet of Vigor
1 Mox Opal
1 Glassdust Hulk
1 Thopter Foundry
4 Time Warp
4 Angelsong
3 Open the Vaults
2 Cryptic Command
Planeswalkers:
3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
I'm feeling really good about this list. It's getting much tighter and I think a lot of these numbers and card choices are correct. What are everyone's thoughts?
I looked through the whole thread and saw that the only one who had made a list similar to mine was Jacob Van Lunen, and his was a budget version that wasn't running Everflowing Chalice. That means that his can't possibly combo off on turn 3, whereas mine can by filtering Chalice mana through Prophetic Prisms and using Sphere of the Suns to produce the colored mana.
He also didn't have Throne of Geth, which can allow Tezzeret (either one) to win the turn he comes into play.
And also, just because you hold the personal opinion that Semblance Anvil doesn't work doesn't mean it isn't a viable strategy.
EDH:
RWU Zedruu, the Greathearted
BUG Damia, Sage of Stone
[Legacy]
ANT
Imperial Painter
Oops...yeah turn 4 OtV probably won't happen. But at least you get an extra turn to build up mana and drop more artifacts, right?
EDH:
RWU Zedruu, the Greathearted
BUG Damia, Sage of Stone
Ya makes sense to me, the way I see it you'll be able to take two turns in a row off of Time Sieve.... then Open the Vault and hopefully win.
I don't know that you need four tezzeret, maybe pick one and run 2, your going to do a ton of drawing, I think that gives you extra deck space just in case.
[Legacy]
ANT
Imperial Painter
Level 1 Judge
Currently Playing:
W Death and Taxes
BGR ScapeWish Nic Fit
BGR Punishing Nic Fit
It is actually possible to OtV on your first extra turn after your turn 3, but it requires a good mix of Chalices, Wellsprings, and Prophetic Prisms to produce 6 mana on turn 4. It's not impossible, just pretty unlikely.
Good idea on cutting down on Tezzerets. I think I might actually go with 2 of the old Tezzeret, but I'm not sure. It is easier to get 4 artifacts out than 10, but you then have to win through their creatures that they've probably played. Maybe 1/1? And then add in 2 Time Warps.
EDH:
RWU Zedruu, the Greathearted
BUG Damia, Sage of Stone
And this is possible. Using semblence anvil, we will always get 1 mana off of chalice, and 1 mana off of sphere. If you go.
Turn 1: Borderpost (1 mana)
Turn 2: Land -> Sphere (3 mana)
Turn 3: Land -> Anvil off of borderpost and lands with dispel mana up, exile artifact (probably a borderpost), do as many cantrips as you can (some of which are prophetic prisms and chalices), time sieve off of a chalice through a prism and the sphere, take an extra turn. (5+ mana, if played right, 6 mana)
Turn 3.1: Land -> Open the Vaults with dispel mana up, Take an extra turn.
Turn 3.2: Land -> Planeswalker (Probably Tezz 1.0), Throne of geth to proliferate tezz. Ultimate and swing with a lot of 5/5's. Win.
That said, cards the deck list above probably wants to maindeck:
2-3 Dispel/Spell Pierce
2-3 Time Warp
Borderposts
-2 Tezz agent of bolas
Take a mechanic from the pre-mirrodin era, and a mechanic after the mirrodin era, and create a card that flavorfully melds both mechanics.
Some combination of these cards needs to be in every maindeck. whether you focus on a turbofog version for an aggro meta, a counterspell package for a control meta, or a mixture you need to have these cards. This deck isn't consistently fast enough to win before the turn 3 goldfish of a red-deck, or a fight through blightnings and maelstrom pulses from jund.
Heroes of the Plane Studios is awesome.
Decks
Mono black control
BUG :symb::symu::symg:
EXT:
Time Sieve :symw::symu::symb:
T1.5
Eva Depths :symg::symb:
EDH:
Glissa, the traitor :symb::symg:
Currently dreaming up:
T2- Eldrazi BUG :symg::symu::symb:
EXT- Superfriends 2.0 :symu::symw::symr:
"I'd like to buy a bowel" - wheel of torture