I'm still running KCI over Time Sieve and using fabricate in addition to muddle to make sure I can tutor for the missing pieces. The control elements (mana leak, condescend, smother, thoughtseize, explosives, damnation, etc.) are great and the deck, frankly, just doesn't lose very often. Here's how the matchups have gone in the tournament practice room.
Hypercascade: I've played against about 15 of these and only lost once, there's just not much they can do once you get all the combo pieces in hand.
Affinity: This one feels about even, if they can goldfish you by turn three there's not much you can do game one, if you can deal with their pithing needles and stop the bumrush you can win post sb.
Tezzerrator/Faeries: This ends up being a counterspell war and they usually have alot of answers in their sb. Its not a great matchup, but very winnable if you take game one.
Zoo: Just too fast. I've beaten in once out of three matches, but i won the last one post sb with damnation + smother + making blockers and gaining life.
Boat Brew: Gaddock Teeg shuts down KCI, so thats a strong case for md time sieve. Its just not fast enough to kill you before you can combo out. Lots of hate post sb, but smart sideboarding and clever play makes it a decent matchup.
TEPS: Lost to this once after they comboed out on turn 2 the second game. I added more countespells md.
That's all for now, thanks for all the suggestions, I think we're on to something here!
A player at the local shop (no tournament, just a bunch of people playing casual games) plays the ability of door to nothingness.
As his opponent is about to pick up his cards, he stands up and walks three tables down, and taps the guy on the shoulder. "Hi, I'm playing just a few tables down and just sacrificed a door to nothingness. I'm targeting you. Sorry."
And the guy picked up his cards.
If the KCI decks are still running Muddle to fetch the two main combo pieces, would running a single MD Time Sieve really hurt? Not hoping to draw it most games, but an option if you want it. It doesn't strictly have to be one or the other, I'd think.
A player at the local shop (no tournament, just a bunch of people playing casual games) plays the ability of door to nothingness.
As his opponent is about to pick up his cards, he stands up and walks three tables down, and taps the guy on the shoulder. "Hi, I'm playing just a few tables down and just sacrificed a door to nothingness. I'm targeting you. Sorry."
And the guy picked up his cards.
So it would be a combo deck with a Combo as win condition. With thirst for knowledge it has a chance of putting the sword of the meek directly into the graveyard, so it doesn't have to play it. maybe the deck could even cut thieme sieve (or some of them ) for myr retrievers
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My new houserules:
1. Every player saing exiled or battlefield will be kicked out.
2. Not using you mana deals 2 points of manaburn.
3. Combat damage goes over the Stack and you can freely assign it.
4. Lifelinks does stack and doesn't safe you from dying.
5. Tokens are owned bye the one who has made them.
Everyone thinking M10 will not affect a lot of cards or Limited a lot, either has no clue about magic or has never played limited or is getting paid by wizards to do propaganda.
If the KCI decks are still running Muddle to fetch the two main combo pieces, would running a single MD Time Sieve really hurt? Not hoping to draw it most games, but an option if you want it. It doesn't strictly have to be one or the other, I'd think.
I totally agree, I just ended up dropping down to a singleton and ended up dropping it for more removal/control. However, I like having multiple copies of KCI mostly because the alternate win conditions can also make use of it.
This deck is inexpensive as it is. I don't run explosives at the moment and thoughtseize is just a sb card. Here's a 'budget' version I designed:
4xSword
4xFoundry
4xKCI
4xTalisman of Dominance
4xPonder
4xMuddle
4xFabricate
2xMyr Retriever
1xTime Sieve
6xControl Cards of Your Choice
23 Lands
Don't underestimate the power of Repeal here, i would remove it from the MD. The versatility really helps. I think you guys aer focusing in not letting anything pass, but that happens tho, and repeal cover that spot giving tempo and not putting you behind cards...
Important things:
* 1 Swamp is very important to let you play Thoughtseize in first turn withouthurting that much. Also avoid Moon effects.
* Thoughtseize is a must agaisnt control. 3 MD 1 SB. Against aggro tho, i would SB all of then.
* Cutted one Time Sieve for the final Muddle the Mixture, just because that is the best tutor you will find. Also counter the most troublesome spells.
* I would like to add a singleton Klark-Clan Ironworks, just don't know what to cut.
imho the only time you should play combo is if it's the win con of your control deck or aggro deck. Or just be the stone cold nuts combo like those vintage tendrilsdecks.
Maybe i'm wrong on that part, but I think a good control shell with a combo finish has more merrit then an unstable combodeck.
Besides you can just sac the master with foundry ;p
Yeah, and that's why the list i posted is a control deck with a combo finish, i don't think you saw it... in this same page.
Yeah, this is a great deck. Just running it my mind; makes me wanna play it. Its pretty much resilient to mass removal due to so many tutoring effects. However, I would include some kind of permanent destroying card or meddling mage even if you do play it in budget mood cause pithing needle will kill this deck. I like the idea of putting engineered explosives. As for tezzeret, I like the idea of playing it but only in the sideboard as its kind of clunky.
maybe i am just too stoned to understand, but what is the combo ?:p
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"I feel like I just attacked with everything, and it's too late to take it back."
- Chris Pikula, shortly after getting married on December 29th, 2001.
maybe i am just too stoned to understand, but what is the combo ?:p
you have Thopter Foundry & Sword of the meek in play.
Pay 1, sac the sword make a 1/1 thopter (gain 1). the 1/1 coming into play triggers the sword to return for GY to play equipped to it. Rinse and repeat.
what was wrong with the combo of genesis chamber/time salve/myrs that return themselves ? it seems better since ur opponent doesn't get the chance to react as soon as u "go off".
the combo with foundry+sword dies to wrath (tron UW) damnation and nights' soul betrayel(UB tron).
unless u play really good anti agro i don't see the deck lasts 3-4 turns against zoo/naya burn.
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"I feel like I just attacked with everything, and it's too late to take it back."
- Chris Pikula, shortly after getting married on December 29th, 2001.
what was wrong with the combo of genesis chamber/time salve/myrs that return themselves ? it seems better since ur opponent doesn't get the chance to react as soon as u "go off".
the combo with foundry+sword dies to wrath (tron UW) damnation and nights' soul betrayel(UB tron).
unless u play really good anti agro i don't see the deck lasts 3-4 turns against zoo/naya burn.
So what? If someone kills all my tokens with Wrath of God or Damnation fell free, i will just make a lot of others...
so basically this is a control deck that has foundry+sword as win condition ?
how do u deal with needle game 1?
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"I feel like I just attacked with everything, and it's too late to take it back."
- Chris Pikula, shortly after getting married on December 29th, 2001.
so basically this is a control deck that has foundry+sword as win condition ?
how do u deal with needle game 1?
Run Engineered explosives mostly. Very few decks run needle MD (like..Tezz.. anything with Trinket mage i suppose). EE/chalice at one/repeal/counterspells. Game one they can't play it early; they don't know what to name so you should probably leave counter mana up.
what was wrong with the combo of genesis chamber/time salve/myrs that return themselves ? it seems better since ur opponent doesn't get the chance to react as soon as u "go off".
you can still use the Seive, it basically reads "5: gain 5 life, take another turn." using other myr makes the combo more cards (bad) and rely on going off. This simply requires two cards to make a pretty unassailable advantage
so what is the list ? 8 combo pieces, anything that search them ? fabricate ? artificer's intuition ? and the rest are counters/problem solvers ?
what do u think about tezzeret ? he can search both combo pieces, untap lands, and search for solutions : needle etc.
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"I feel like I just attacked with everything, and it's too late to take it back."
- Chris Pikula, shortly after getting married on December 29th, 2001.
Just read what Tezzeret the Seeker" target="blank">Tezzeret the Seeker does. Might be worth a few slots. I mean, play some artifact lands and you can untap two of them or even search for them if you need some
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Quote from Xenphire »
And on February 28th, 2005, thousands of affinity players had to begin to learn how to play Magic...
A player at the local shop (no tournament, just a bunch of people playing casual games) plays the ability of door to nothingness.
As his opponent is about to pick up his cards, he stands up and walks three tables down, and taps the guy on the shoulder. "Hi, I'm playing just a few tables down and just sacrificed a door to nothingness. I'm targeting you. Sorry."
And the guy picked up his cards.
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Hypercascade: I've played against about 15 of these and only lost once, there's just not much they can do once you get all the combo pieces in hand.
Affinity: This one feels about even, if they can goldfish you by turn three there's not much you can do game one, if you can deal with their pithing needles and stop the bumrush you can win post sb.
Tezzerrator/Faeries: This ends up being a counterspell war and they usually have alot of answers in their sb. Its not a great matchup, but very winnable if you take game one.
Zoo: Just too fast. I've beaten in once out of three matches, but i won the last one post sb with damnation + smother + making blockers and gaining life.
Boat Brew: Gaddock Teeg shuts down KCI, so thats a strong case for md time sieve. Its just not fast enough to kill you before you can combo out. Lots of hate post sb, but smart sideboarding and clever play makes it a decent matchup.
TEPS: Lost to this once after they comboed out on turn 2 the second game. I added more countespells md.
That's all for now, thanks for all the suggestions, I think we're on to something here!
Jank Decks: Don't stand much of a chance
Trades
Articles
Winner of SSC 1 & ">3 & 6
Here it is
6 Island
6 Swamp
4 Crumbling Necropolis
4 Waterveil Cavern
2 Seat of the Synod
2 Vault of Whispers
4 Muddle the Mixture
4 Remand
4 Repeal
4 Rune Snag
4 Telling Time
4 Distress
4 Thopter Foundry
4 Time Sieve
4 Sword of the Meek
Manabase is actually working for me
Artifact lands- Played a few games where I needed one more artifact and I thought why not. Still testing
Distress- Thoughtseize if I had them
Telling Time- I'm trying these out. I like the taking one card and putting it on bottom. Time will tell
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Sunken Ruins
4 Underground River
4 Watery Grave
4 Chrome Mox
4 Muddle the Mixture
4 Condescend
4 Rune Snag
4 Remand
4 Thoughtseize
4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Thopter Foundry
4 Tieme Sieve
4 Sword of the Meek
So it would be a combo deck with a Combo as win condition. With thirst for knowledge it has a chance of putting the sword of the meek directly into the graveyard, so it doesn't have to play it. maybe the deck could even cut thieme sieve (or some of them ) for myr retrievers
1. Every player saing exiled or battlefield will be kicked out.
2. Not using you mana deals 2 points of manaburn.
3. Combat damage goes over the Stack and you can freely assign it.
4. Lifelinks does stack and doesn't safe you from dying.
5. Tokens are owned bye the one who has made them.
Everyone thinking M10 will not affect a lot of cards or Limited a lot, either has no clue about magic or has never played limited or is getting paid by wizards to do propaganda.
I totally agree, I just ended up dropping down to a singleton and ended up dropping it for more removal/control. However, I like having multiple copies of KCI mostly because the alternate win conditions can also make use of it.
This deck is inexpensive as it is. I don't run explosives at the moment and thoughtseize is just a sb card. Here's a 'budget' version I designed:
4xSword
4xFoundry
4xKCI
4xTalisman of Dominance
4xPonder
4xMuddle
4xFabricate
2xMyr Retriever
1xTime Sieve
6xControl Cards of Your Choice
23 Lands
8 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Watery Grave
1 Academy Ruins
1 Steam vents
1 Breeding Pool
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Thopter Foundry
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Time Sieve
Instants
4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Repeal
4 Remand
4 Rune Snag
4 Muddle the Mixture
3 Thoughtseize
4 Stifle
4 Spell Snare
3 Chalice of The Void
3 Smother
1 Thoughtseize
For those who asked a list...
Don't underestimate the power of Repeal here, i would remove it from the MD. The versatility really helps. I think you guys aer focusing in not letting anything pass, but that happens tho, and repeal cover that spot giving tempo and not putting you behind cards...
Important things:
* 1 Swamp is very important to let you play Thoughtseize in first turn withouthurting that much. Also avoid Moon effects.
* Thoughtseize is a must agaisnt control. 3 MD 1 SB. Against aggro tho, i would SB all of then.
* Cutted one Time Sieve for the final Muddle the Mixture, just because that is the best tutor you will find. Also counter the most troublesome spells.
* I would like to add a singleton Klark-Clan Ironworks, just don't know what to cut.
What about fabricate over muddle the mixture???
Wouldnt it work better
I like this deck
Im really a budget player
any ideas of a manabase without all the fetchs
Standard
Goblins
Extended
Nothing
Legacy
Spring tide
MY twitter
Http://twitter.com/Piggyboy1
In this deck? Muddle the Mixture over Fabricate ever, because it does exactly the same thing and much more.
Someone posted a pretty good budget list at the second page.
9 Island
3 Swamp
3 Vault of Whispers
3 Seat of the Synod
4 Underground River
1 Academy Ruins
23
Since I run the talisman to power out the combo faster you still have 14 black sources, which is plenty.
I just don't get it...
The combo can make you go with infinite turns or infinite life gain/tokens, isn't that good enough to win 99% of the times?
Yeah, and that's why the list i posted is a control deck with a combo finish, i don't think you saw it... in this same page.
I play cryptic inplace of repeal and its **** hits the Fan
Yea its bigger but it makes it better you can do all sorts of stupid things with cryptic
Best one was against TEPS just now
Yea you unsuspend lotus bloom
I go counter and bounce a Storage land and you scoop???
Standard
Goblins
Extended
Nothing
Legacy
Spring tide
MY twitter
Http://twitter.com/Piggyboy1
The only problems I can see is the vulnerability to spell snare (/EE for 2). Even then, it is pretty resiliant, given sword comes back on its own.
I feel all giddy like a child I think Gifts ungiven would be really awesome in a control-ish deck. I may even have to add part of it to my Tron deck.
I am glad you guys are sharing my entusiasm for the deck! :banana::banana::banana:
I love Cryptic too, i just thought Repeal would fit better in the deck because it helps the early game, but i might be wrong.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=4875480#post4875480
- Chris Pikula, shortly after getting married on December 29th, 2001.
you have Thopter Foundry & Sword of the meek in play.
Pay 1, sac the sword make a 1/1 thopter (gain 1). the 1/1 coming into play triggers the sword to return for GY to play equipped to it. Rinse and repeat.
You make a 1/1 & 1 life for each mana you spend!
the combo with foundry+sword dies to wrath (tron UW) damnation and nights' soul betrayel(UB tron).
unless u play really good anti agro i don't see the deck lasts 3-4 turns against zoo/naya burn.
- Chris Pikula, shortly after getting married on December 29th, 2001.
So what? If someone kills all my tokens with Wrath of God or Damnation fell free, i will just make a lot of others...
Night of Souls' Betrayal is a problem, you can solve this with Engineered Explosives, Repeal/Cryptic Command, any counter, or any enchantment destruction you play.
how do u deal with needle game 1?
- Chris Pikula, shortly after getting married on December 29th, 2001.
Run Engineered explosives mostly. Very few decks run needle MD (like..Tezz.. anything with Trinket mage i suppose). EE/chalice at one/repeal/counterspells. Game one they can't play it early; they don't know what to name so you should probably leave counter mana up.
you can still use the Seive, it basically reads "5: gain 5 life, take another turn." using other myr makes the combo more cards (bad) and rely on going off. This simply requires two cards to make a pretty unassailable advantage
what do u think about tezzeret ? he can search both combo pieces, untap lands, and search for solutions : needle etc.
- Chris Pikula, shortly after getting married on December 29th, 2001.