MTG Salvation

Quote from Knowledge

NOOOO!!! Not Bubble Hulk again!
Anyway, the deck needs at least 2 Carrion Feeders, or its too easy to disrupt.
Also, Greater Gargadon is good. So is Dramatic Entrance.

Bile Urchin over Mogg, because you can loop life loss, which isnt damage, to stop things that prevent damage.

I am working on a similar version of this deck right now for Post October 2008 Extended.

To the quote: I like the idea of Bile Urchin instead of Mogg Fanatic (since Urchin is vulnerable to less things).

However, I am not sure about using 2x of any combo piece (mainly because I want a way to put those pieces where they need to be and this combo allows you to go off at instant speed)

I actually like Chrome Mox and Simian Spirit Guide better than Rite of Flame and Desperate Ritual (allows for more turn 1 / turn 2 kills...turn 1 kill is pretty low percentage but possible).

I also like using Sensei's Divining Top in any combo deck because it smooths out the draws.

Hmm... 68 cards... what goes?

Quote from DJ Samurai

8 cards have to go.Magic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
4 Protean Hulk 4 Greater Gargadon 2 Reveillark 2 Body Double 2 Bile Urchin 2 Carrion Feeder 4 Through the Breach 2 Dramatic Entrance 4 Summoner's Pact 4 Thoughtseize 2 Pact of Negation 4 Rite of Flame 4 Desperate Ritual 4 Seething Song 4 Lotus Bloom	4 Bloodstained Mire 4 Wooded Foothills 3 Blood Crypt 3 Stomping Ground 2 Steam Vents 4 Gemstone Mine

Hmm... 68 cards... what goes?

I really think the Greater Gargadons are good if you play them for Suspend cost from your hand...other wise its just middle of the road at best (because it cannot be searched out by Protean Hulk)...so maybe cut back on the Gargadons...but it is an extra Sacrifice outlet, so you could try something else.

...other than that...

You could get rid of Rite of Flame or Desperate Ritual as these cards are only good when you have other accellators in hand (Seething Song is the best)...

If you look at my previous post I mentioned Simian Spirit Guide and Chrome Mox - reason - they are both 0 Casting Cost which means you lose card, but gain the mana without spending any mana.

Thoughts?

Ugh.... This was my pet deck and it's been spoiled already. I've been tweaking for months as the best weapons against this deck (Therapy and Duress) are gone, not to mention sideboards will be attacking Affinity more than Dredge, reducing splash damage. Seeing as how it's out now, i may as well get some advice. Here's where I'm at:


This is the base so far. Avg. Uninhibited kill has been turn 3. From personal experience, i can tell you that Lotus Bloom has no place here. If you're not ready to go off turn 4 without it, you've already lost. Ponder has been exceptional, turning mediocre hands into turn 2 kills. Sleight of hand has been run as ponder 5-8, easily beating out serum visions in testing (I drew far more body doubles and reveillarks than i would've liked.) The sideboard is still in testing. Echoing truth is a 4-of. Vexing shusher and boseiju are fighting for slots. Thoughtseize probably gets a slot as well as pact of negation.

My concerns right now are:
1. Dramatic entrance just isn't cutting it. Often times, when I have 3GG, I have 5GG and can just hard cast the hulk. Plus, you don't immediately go off. Also, I have to run manamorphisis, which is sometimes amazing (Whee, morph, morph for that last combo card) to lack luster (Bad Mull Decisions) to turn a seething song into a dramatic entrance. Plus, you can't even go off right away with the entrance unless you drew a feeder and played it and it didn't immediately die. Cut both for maindeck thoughtseize + 2 others?
2. Rite of Flame vs. Pentad Prism: Basically it boils down to speed vs. consistency. Rite of Flame gives you more turn 1,2 kills. Pentad Prism almost guarantees 5 mana on turn three, and gives you the ability to go off at instant speed after you untap with it in play (rite is a sorcery). I think it's rite for now because the deck is under the radar, and switch to prism if it picks up momentum.
3. Side combos: Rakdos, the Defiler probably needs to be in the board against decks like NLB. Also, I've found that Woodfall Primus is great against hate cards. Let's say I can go off turn 2, and my opponent goes land, Tormod's Crypt or Leyline of the Void. Breaching in a Primus blows up the hate card, deals 6, then persists to blow up their land. I've won a few games by doing this after my opponent kept a marginal hand with hate.

Well ok...even though you can find a perfectly good thread about this type of deck here http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=126684

I guess I will post my latest POST ROTATION version for comments:



PLEASE NOTE: This version of the deck can win on Turn 0

With a hand such as:

Steam Vents, Simian Spirit Guide, Chrome Mox, Seething Song, Through the Breach, Protean Hulk, Seething Song

-

I feel like this deck is a great call for Berlin and the early Extended PTQs.

I have played a quite a few games with this version and it seems really exciting.

Thoughts...?

-mmuras

As long as you run 4 Chrome Mox and 4 Simian Spirit Guide 14 - 15 land should be enough.

Let me tell you about Sensei's Divining Top ...its a 4 of for any combo deck in Extended...(yes its that good). Ponder is almost as good (and in some cases better...but you only get to use it once unless you have an Eternal Witness or something to get it back.

As for Counterbalance...yeah its wierd...and hard to work with because of the UU in the mana cost...but its worth it....a lot of the time resolving it early (when you don't have the pieces you want) is enough to stall until you can win.

As to the Tutor comment...I know what you mean...but...after some testing (at least with my version)...I feel like the Top and Ponder have a tutor-like-effect on the top of the deck, so I really need 6 Protean Hulk and 6 Through the Breach (Thus the max 4 Protean Hulk and max 4 Through the Breach, plus 2 of each of the relevant tutors).

I think my version still needs work...to start...I have to figure out which piece to cut for Ponder # 4

Maybe change it up a bit...for Dark Confidant (not sure about that...needs testing)...

-mmuras

Any love for Thunderblust? After reading about persist on primus, I thought this might be a viable one-of. It is search-able with Protean. Playable turn two with the right mana sources (rite or simian + seething song).

Any more strategies for playing this deck?

Are you kidding me? We have a thread for this on the first page of DFC.

Peer Through Depths searches for every single combo piece in this deck. I'd recommend playing it. (Don't say it doesn't get Hulk - Summoner's Pact)

Well, you don't have top anymore so ponder is an auto include.

Quote from Nonprophet

Well, you don't have top anymore so ponder is an auto include.

I can't believe it took till you to mention Top was banned. Thanks though. But yes, Ponder is auto. No Brainstorm, so Ponder is as good as it gets.

Here is my updated list - no more Sensei's Divining Top oh well...I think it works out better any way as even I was running Counterbalance-Top as a control combo to get to the Hulk combo.

--Creatures (16)

2x Body Double
2x Carrion Feeder
2x Mogg Fanatic
4x Protean Hulk
2x Reveillark
4x Simian Spirit Guide

--Other Spells (30)

4x Chrome Mox
1x Echoing Truth
2x Eerie Procession
4x Pact of Negation
4x Peer Through Depths
4x Ponder
3x Summoner's Pact
4x Seething Song
4x Through the Breach

--Lands (14)

2x Bloodstained Mire
1x Breeding Pool
1x Overgrown Tomb
2x Polluted Delta
1x Sacred Foundry
2x Steam Vents
1x Stomping Ground
2x Watery Grave
2x Windswept Heath

-I think I actually like this version a little better than the one with Counterbalance-Top, but it may be because I am more experienced with deck.

This version can still win on Turn 0 (Turn 1), but its average win is around turn 4 or turn 5 (pretty even with the other Combo decks Post-Rotation)

I have to thank Atomsk because Peer Through Depths is a great call for this deck since Top is gone...and yes it can get EVERY PIECE OF THE COMBO.

-Still deciding on my Sideboard...

Thoughts on this version of the deck?

-mmuras

Quote from mikey k159

you guys wouldn't believe what just happend to me

him-"you cant search",
me-"what? why the hell not",
him-"because body double is a copy",
me-"so the reveillark combo doesn't work?",
him-"learn the rules noob!"

anyway...

here is my list, i was playing rite of flame, but i decided to cut it because im playing pentad prism

mmuras's DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
creatures 12 2 reveillark 2 body double 1 mogg fanatic 1 bile urchin 2 carrion feeder 4 protean hulk spells 32 2 slaughter pact 3 summoner's pact 4 through the breach 4 ponder 4 desperate ritual 4 pentad prism 4 seething song 3 chain of vapor 4 peer through depths	lands 16 2 blood crypt 2 stomping ground 3 steam vents 2 bloodstained mire 3 wooed foothills 4 gemstone mine	sideboard 3 pact of negation 4 pithing needle 4 thoughtsize 1 slaughter pact 3 ???

my sideboard is a little clunky right now, but i want alternate creature win-conditions, that much i know

i was thinking empty the warrens... but im not sure... i will try it out though

im helping my friend get ready for berlin and this is his combo choice... its been working well vs just about everthing

the only troublesome matchup is faeries... zoo can be a troublesome because of its speed and teeg, but... it happens...

I am not sure if your problem with Faeries is them countering a spell at the point when you are trying to win, but if that is the case...I play Pact of Negation in my main deck for that reason.

I have tested my version quite a bit. I play Pact of Negation in the main deck really helps...even if I draw multiple in my opening hand...I can use the extra for my Chrome Mox.

Oh and I am about 95% sure the guy you were playing who basically told you the combo doesn't work, does not really understand how the card interactions work with current rulings.

Also not sure how fast you deck wins, but mine can win on Turn 0 (with the optimal hand: Land, Simian Spirit Guide, Simian Spirit Guide, Seething Song, Through the Breach, Protean Hulk

...My version usually wins on turn 4 or turn 5...how fast are the Zoo variants winning?

Quote from Zirilian

Just pointing out that:


Isn't a turn 0 win, you'd need a third Spirit Guide.

Land, Simian Spirit Guide, Simian Spirit Guide, Seething Song, Through the Breach, Protean Hulk:

-Play Land
-Tap Land: Add one (of whatever it produces) to your mana pool
-Remove Simian Spirit Guide from hand: Add one R to your mana pool
-Remove Simian Spirit Guide from hand: Add one R to your mana pool
-Use 1RR in your mana pool: Play Seething Song
-Seething Song: Add five R to your mana pool
-Use RRRRR in your mana pool: Play Through the Breach

Then follow the steps below:

1) Through the Breach getting Protean Hulk into play, before End of Turn
2) Sacrifice Protean Hulk at End of Turn (Through the Breach trigger)
3) Search for Body Double and Carrion Feeder and put them into play (Protean Hulk trigger)
4) Copy Protean Hulk with Body Double, sacrifice Body Double to Carrion Feeder (setting up a second Protean Hulk search trigger)
5) Search for Reveillark and Mogg Fanatic
6) Sacrifice Mogg Fanantic to itself (dealing 1 damage)
7) Sacrifice Reveillark to Carrion Feeder to get Reveillark trigger getting back Body Double and Mogg Fanatic
8) Copy Reveillark with Body Double
9) Sacrifice Mogg Fanantic to itself (dealing 1 damage to target player)
10) Sacrifice Body Double to Carrion Feeder to get Reveillark trigger getting back Body Double and Mogg Fanatic

(Repeat Steps 8-10 as much as you want...all this can be done at Instant speed at End of Turn, but the Through the Breach setting off the intial Protean Hulk trigger must be played before End of Turn)

----

Does that not work?

Quote from Zirilian

It works just fine, just that turn 0 usually means winning in your opponent's first turn. That's just a first turn win.

Ok...then yeah....need 3 Spirit Guides ...hard but still possible

Here is something I have been testing, its a consistent turn 2-3 win. I need a little help with the sideboard, though. Slaughter Pact is a must to deal with Gaddock Teeg, and Pact of Negation to protect the combo vs control. Any other ideas?


Currently, the sideboard looks something like this:

02 Naturalize
03 Slaughter Pact
03 Pact of Negation
03 Extirpate
03 Braincat (Meow!)
01 Mogg Fanatic

Thoughts for the MD, I have been having trouble deciding between Pentad Prism, Manamorphose, and Mishra's Bauble. There are pros and cons for each, and I can explain them if you like, but for the moment, I'm going with 3 Prism 1 Manamorphose. In the sideboard, the Extirpate can become a Leyline if needed.

[edit] Reading back, I'm replacing the MD naturalize with Woodfall Primus, because it's a secondary wincon, and can hit almost any hate. I'll let you know how I feel about it.

The reason bile urchin is in the MD and not the SB, is that during the first game, there is less stuff to hate it out. Then, if it gets needled in the second game, you have fanatic, not urchin, and can still win. There is plenty of stuff to prevent damage, but not life loss. One con is, though, urchin can't take out an angel. I'm thinking of putting one of each in the MD, and just running 61 cards.

Apparently a new version of this won a big tourney somewhere

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20042

check it!