This is the list I have been running to some success however, the night before philly's ptq we tested 2 versions of the deck (this one and the first one), we found the decks to be very draw dependent like most combo decks however, the games where this went off, you win. This is the version I was thinking about taking. It can win though most hate currently in the meta (including extripate...see orims chant). We found the footsteps combo clunky and not viable with only careful study as a discard outlet. It is also subject to extripate hate a lot more.
The List
Lands
3 Sulfur Vent
2 Ancient Spring
4 City of Brass
2 Irrigation Ditch
3 Tinder Farm
4 Gemstone Mine
// Creatures
1 Bile Urchin
2 Carrion Feeder
2 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Reveillark
1 Mogg Fanatic
2 Body Double
3 Protean Hulk
// Spells
4 Cunning Wish
3 Reach Through Mists
3 Thoughtseize
1 Chrome Mox
3 Living Wish
4 Seething Song
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Summoner's Pact
3 Through the Breach
3 Orim's Chant
// Sideboard
SB: 1 Protean Hulk
SB: 1 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Summoner's Pact
SB: 1 Through the Breach
SB: 1 Orim's Chant
SB: 1 Extirpate
SB: 1 Ray of Revelation
SB: 1 Wispmare
SB: 1 Shriekmaw
SB: 1 Shifty Doppelganger
SB: 1 Ingot Chewer
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 3 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
Choices:
Reach though mists: This gives blue decks another threat to counter as you can splice on the breach.
Everything else should be pretty much self explanitory. I am not sure if I like the sideboard, however it has proven to be good.
------------------------------------------------------------
The matchups- All tested with players of 1800+ rating, 10 games each. The first 3 preboard, the last 7 postboard.
Goblins/affinity/zoo --- 50/50, it really comes down to how much pressure they put on you and how fast you're able to go off.
NLB/tog variants --- 70/30, this matchup comes down to orims chants, winning in response to draw spells such as thirst, FoF, the element of suprise, Chants and splicing. When they sb in extripates/leylines you just have more hate to push though. At one point, I won though a needle naming feeder, a leyline, another needle naming feeder, a crypt, and counterspells.
Doran aggro ---- 60/40, I fail to see how this was in favor of us, however unless they hit their pinpoint discard this is a realitivly easy matchup. They sb in more hate and it could potentially be a problem. IE: Duress + extripate.
Rock/Gifts rock --- 60/40, once again this matchup comes down to them hitting their pinpoint discard.
Ideal - 50/50 If ideal casts ideal before you combo out, you lose. If you cast breach + hulk before they do, you win. Simple as that. Wish for a wispmare early inorder to get around a hardcasted confinement.
TEPS - 70/30, Lol. They can't really stop you from going off. Chant really shines in this matchup and you could normally make them combo off then mana burn them.
Dredge- 40/60, This matchup is somewhat annoying. If they dredge half their deck then cast multiple Cabal therapys you have a problem. If they don't you usually have a pretty good chance at winning. An Early cunning wish for extripate helps in this matchup, however, sometimes its just not enough. I thought about putting an offalsnout in the board to make the matchup more favorable however, I wasn't sure what to cut. Game 2 can get really annoying. They bring in leylines. The combination of this, pinpoint discard, and an rediculously fast clock can sometimes just win them the game. Goal for this match: Make them mulligan.:p
Decks not tested: Death cloud (we didn't have it built yet) and Aggroloam
yeah - obviously I disagree with you, John. Spam Warning!.....Amazing - even in a forum where posts don't count, there's spam. That proves that getting rid of the post-count won't help getting rid of spam! Thans for this excellent example! - Craven
yeah - obviously I disagree with you, John. Spam Warning!.....Amazing - even in a forum where posts don't count, there's spam. That proves that getting rid of the post-count won't help getting rid of spam! Thans for this excellent example! - Craven
This is the list I have been running to some success however, the night before philly's ptq we tested 2 versions of the deck (this one and the first one), we found the decks to be very draw dependent like most combo decks however, the games where this went off, you win. This is the version I was thinking about taking. It can win though most hate currently in the meta (including extripate...see orims chant). We found the footsteps combo clunky and not viable with only careful study as a discard outlet. It is also subject to extripate hate a lot more.
First, I don’t know why you think Footsteps is clunky? The original deck, and the one I’m running, uses eight, not four, ways to get Protean Hulk into the Graveyard, four Careful Study and Thoughtsieze. I have never had a problem getting the Hulk into the Graveyard. My biggest problem has always been getting the right combination of mana to be able to get the hulk into the graveyard and combo out on the same turn.
From the list you provided, it appears your deck actually has only 3 ways, main deck of going off instead of eight. Even if you include your four Cunning Wish, to be able t wish for Through the Breach, you still only have seven ways as compared to the eight when you use Footsteps. What it looks like you’ve done, is take a very explosive and somewhat resilient combo deck and weakened it’s explosiveness in order to shore up its defenses.
Interestingly, your matchup vs. Goblins/Zoo/Affinity is only 50/50 which is horrendous for a combo deck vs. agro. The average kill for Hulk is usually about 1 to 2 turns before any of the agro decks kill. On the other hand you’ve strengthened the matchup quite well vs. control. The deck was already good at winning through hate, which was one of its strengths. I’m glad the deck can win a game where you face two needles, Leyline, Crypt and counterspells but it shouldn’t have to win through 4+ pieces of hate. The game should never take that long that the NLB or control player has the opportunity to get that much hate out on it.
Personally, I would be much more afraid about weakening the combo deck vs. agro decks than strengthening it vs. NLB, since you’ll probably see more Goblins/Zoo/Affinity together than NLB. Also, for the Dredge matchup, Hulk is usually 50/50 vs. Dredge. It’s more who wins the dye roll than anything else. While your deck gives the advantage to Dredge by allowing them time to go off or get Cabal Therapy in the graveyard to kill your combo.
I’m just wondering, why build a deck more resilient to less decks in the field and weaken it towards the larger percentage of decks you’d face at a PTQ?
First, I don’t know why you think Footsteps is clunky? The original deck, and the one I’m running, uses eight, not four, ways to get Protean Hulk into the Graveyard, four Careful Study and Thoughtsieze. I have never had a problem getting the Hulk into the Graveyard. My biggest problem has always been getting the right combination of mana to be able to get the hulk into the graveyard and combo out on the same turn.
From the list you provided, it appears your deck actually has only 3 ways, main deck of going off instead of eight. Even if you include your four Cunning Wish, to be able t wish for Through the Breach, you still only have seven ways as compared to the eight when you use Footsteps. What it looks like you’ve done, is take a very explosive and somewhat resilient combo deck and weakened it’s explosiveness in order to shore up its defenses.
Interestingly, your matchup vs. Goblins/Zoo/Affinity is only 50/50 which is horrendous for a combo deck vs. agro. The average kill for Hulk is usually about 1 to 2 turns before any of the agro decks kill. On the other hand you’ve strengthened the matchup quite well vs. control. The deck was already good at winning through hate, which was one of its strengths. I’m glad the deck can win a game where you face two needles, Leyline, Crypt and counterspells but it shouldn’t have to win through 4+ pieces of hate. The game should never take that long that the NLB or control player has the opportunity to get that much hate out on it.
Personally, I would be much more afraid about weakening the combo deck vs. agro decks than strengthening it vs. NLB, since you’ll probably see more Goblins/Zoo/Affinity together than NLB. Also, for the Dredge matchup, Hulk is usually 50/50 vs. Dredge. It’s more who wins the dye roll than anything else. While your deck gives the advantage to Dredge by allowing them time to go off or get Cabal Therapy in the graveyard to kill your combo.
I’m just wondering, why build a deck more resilient to less decks in the field and weaken it towards the larger percentage of decks you’d face at a PTQ?
First, I don’t know why you think Footsteps is clunky? The original deck, and the one I’m running, uses eight, not four, ways to get Protean Hulk into the Graveyard, four Careful Study and Thoughtsieze. I have never had a problem getting the Hulk into the Graveyard.
Footsteps is clunky because generally you thoughtseize your opponent unless you have a footsteps in hand. Maybe I have been playing the deck too conservativly.
From the list you provided, it appears your deck actually has only 3 ways, main deck of going off instead of eight. Even if you include your four Cunning Wish, to be able t wish for Through the Breach, you still only have seven ways as compared to the eight when you use Footsteps. What it looks like you’ve done, is take a very explosive and somewhat resilient combo deck and weakened it’s explosiveness in order to shore up its defenses.
I guess... In my version it is easier to get all the combo pieces insead of relying on two different combos and the right combination of cards. Focusing on a single combo makes the deck more consistent.
Interestingly, your matchup vs. Goblins/Zoo/Affinity is only 50/50 which is horrendous for a combo deck vs. agro. The average kill for Hulk is usually about 1 to 2 turns before any of the agro decks kill.
Are you sure about that? Everytime I played with the other version (tcg list) I found my self in the same situations. I found the deck was very inconsistent. Also, every game that aggro killed me, I needed a seething song to win. I have found that the song is one of the most important enablers in the deck. (obv...) One matchup that was really put the pressure on was Burn. They frequently had me down to 9-11 by turn 2. Which meant if I let them untap I would more than likely die.
On the other hand you’ve strengthened the matchup quite well vs. control. The deck was already good at winning through hate, which was one of its strengths. I’m glad the deck can win a game where you face two needles, Leyline, Crypt and counterspells but it shouldn’t have to win through 4+ pieces of hate. The game should never take that long that the NLB or control player has the opportunity to get that much hate out on it.
Thanks? However, when the player goes turn 1 needle crypt leyline, turn 2 needle, there is a problem. Lol, I was like wtf.... and eventually casted multiple creatures to just swing in ftw. However, at one point I could have comboed off as I had 2 chain of vapors and a cunning wish however, I was 2 mana short :frowntown:.
Also, for the Dredge matchup, Hulk is usually 50/50 vs. Dredge. It’s more who wins the dye roll than anything else. While your deck gives the advantage to Dredge by allowing them time to go off or get Cabal Therapy in the graveyard to kill your combo.
Any decent player who can flip half their deck into the grave and reveal therapies with at least 1 bridges in grave, when I play a first turn invasion sac land will with out a doubt cast everyone they have. Now you're right about the coin flip, it is a very draw dependent match.
I’m just wondering, why build a deck more resilient to less decks in the field and weaken it towards the larger percentage of decks you’d face at a PTQ?
Well I was making the deck more consistent than actually trying to win though more hate. However, when I took the footsteps combo out I found my self with roughly 7-11 slots to play with. I guess in all honesty you could put the footsteps back in however, I found it inconsistent. If you want to do that I would run the deck like this.
Lands
3 Sulfur Vent
2 Ancient Spring
4 City of Brass
2 Irrigation Ditch
3 Tinder Farm
4 Gemstone Mine
// Creatures
-1 Bile Urchin
+1 Hapless Researcher
2 Carrion Feeder
2 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Reveillark
1 Mogg Fanatic
2 Body Double
3 Protean Hulk
// Spells
4 Cunning Wish
3 Thoughtseize
1 Chrome Mox
3 Living Wish
4 Seething Song
3 Summoner's Pact
3 Through the Breach
-3 Orim's Chant
-2 Chain of Vapor
+4 footsteps of the goryo
+1 Thoughtseize
-3 Reach Through Mists
+3 Careful study
// Sideboard
SB: 1 Protean Hulk
SB: 1 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Summoner's Pact
SB: 1 Through the Breach
SB: 1 Orim's Chant
SB: 1 Extirpate
SB: 1 Ray of Revelation
SB: 1 Wispmare
SB: 1 Shriekmaw
SB: 1 Shifty Doppelganger
SB: 1 Ingot Chewer
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 3 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
Something like that.
Cunning wish is amazing though as Milkman suggested (I think). It can get any piece of the combo.
yeah - obviously I disagree with you, John. Spam Warning!.....Amazing - even in a forum where posts don't count, there's spam. That proves that getting rid of the post-count won't help getting rid of spam! Thans for this excellent example! - Craven
My Props play of the tournament: Setting up my combo in response to opponent casting Gifts Ungiven.
My Slops play of the tournament: Ideal player at two life, I have mogg fanatic on the board and erratic explosion in hand. Erratic a Summoner's Pact:-/. Am I ever glad he decided to pop a fetchland
The cunning wish package is so good, so many times it was turn 2/3 wish for 1/2 of my combo, next turn go off. I don't have 4 living wih, maybe an insidious dreams or footsteps of the goryo could be cut for one more.
Footsteps is clunky because generally you thoughtseize your opponent unless you have a footsteps in hand. Maybe I have been playing the deck too conservativly.
I only use Thoughtsieze vs. my opponent if my opponent has something I care about that could possibly stop my combo. Only one deck has anything main deck that I really care about and that’s NLB’s counters. Game two vs. Rock or Goblins, if I have Thoughtsieze and can go off without it, I’ll use it vs. them to possibly remove Extirpate before I go off, but that’s about it.
I guess... In my version it is easier to get all the combo pieces instead of relying on two different combos and the right combination of cards. Focusing on a single combo makes the deck more consistent.
Explain to me how it’s easier? Your deck only has one route to your combo and you play 7 cards main deck to do it. Also, four of your seven cards don’t actually let you go off that turn, unless you have a good bit of mana. The original Hulk plays two ways to get the combo rolling and 8 cards main deck to do it. Not to mention, you weren’t playing Careful Study in your original version, you played Reach Through the Mists, which actually lets you see less cards.
Are you sure about that? Everytime I played with the other version (tcg list) I found my self in the same situations. I found the deck was very inconsistent. Also, every game that aggro killed me, I needed a seething song to win. I have found that the song is one of the most important enablers in the deck. (obv...) One matchup that was really put the pressure on was Burn. They frequently had me down to 9-11 by turn 2. Which meant if I let them untap I would more than likely die.
I would think this decks kill is between turn 3 and turn 4. If it wasn’t, Dredge would still be the better combo deck. Yes there are times when you just get lousy draws and you don’t go off at all. (This happens if you have to mulligan several times or you keep a hand without Footsteps/Breach and your Careful Studies don’t show anything.) For the most part though, you go off turn 3 or 4 and about 15% of the time, turn 2. Can Affinity/Golbins/Zoo kill you by turn 3? No. Can they kill you by turn 4? Of the three I think Zoo has the best chance to do that while Goblins/Affinity look more at killing by turn 5+ using Thoughtcast and Goblin Ringleader to keep the gas flowing. Goblins doesn’t use burn and Affinity only runs Shrapnel Blast. They can get a god draw and possibly win by turn 4 but again that’s their God draw.
Thanks? However, when the player goes turn 1 needle crypt leyline, turn 2 needle, there is a problem. Lol, I was like wtf.... and eventually casted multiple creatures to just swing in ftw. However, at one point I could have comboed off as I had 2 chain of vapors and a cunning wish however, I was 2 mana short :frowntown:.
If my opponent goes T1, Needle, Crypt, Leyline, T2 Needle, I’m just going to give my hand to them and congratulate them on being an incredible luck sack and getting the insane “I beat Hulk” hand. Then move on to the next game.
Any decent player who can flip half their deck into the grave and reveal therapies with at least 1 bridges in grave, when I play a first turn invasion sac land will with out a doubt cast everyone they have. Now you're right about the coin flip, it is a very draw dependent match.
Yup, I’ve been playing this matchup with a friend, who’s bringing Dredge to the NC PTQ this weekend and it’s pretty much a coin flip.
Cunning wish is amazing though as Milkman suggested (I think). It can get any piece of the combo.
Yes, it’s nice being able to use Cunning Wish to get Pact if you need it or to get Breech, but I still maintain, I think it’s harder and slower for you to get the combo off than a deck running Footseps. What happens when you need to cast both Cunning Wish and Living Wish to get your pieces? That’s at least one full turn slower if not more.
Cunning Wish:
13 ways to get Protean Hulk main deck, 14 ways including board.
(3 x Hulk, 3 x Living Wish, 3 x Summoner’s Pact, 4 x Cunning Wish and 1 x Summoner’s pact in board.)
10 ways to get combo started main deck. 10 ways including board.
(3 x Through the Breech, 3 x Living Wish, 4 x Cunning Wish)
Footseps:
10 ways to get Protean Hulk main deck, 10 ways including board.
(3 x Hulk, 3 x Summoner’s Pact, 4 x Living Wish)
12 ways to get combo started main deck.
(4 x Breech, 4 x Footsteps, 4 x Living Wish)
EDIT: How often did you kill with Draco-Explosion? Was it really worth it?
hey knowledge, you going to the sacramento ptq with this??? because i'm debating whether i want a cunning wish/dracoxplosion list... LMK and we'll collaborate
then we played against RDW with molten rain. If you get T3 molten rained with the cunning wish version you can pretty much never ever win.
Also Dredge gives you fits post board. You cant sideboard because you have 15 wish targets and every card in their board owns you. Needle/Leyline? obv. Echoing Truth/Chain? even worse. Also they're two turns faster than you.
The cunning wish version of the deck can win just as early but it's far less likely since you run (a) less MD hulk (b) less MD through the breach (c) less MD seething song (d) no Footsteps. You're actually about the same speed as an Ideal deck with Chrome Mox since your normal play is to wish turn 3 and kill turn 4.
Molten Rain is v.bad because it will always timewalk you (and sometimes double timewalk if you have the wrong lands in hand) and burn for two. So barring odd situations with multiple SSGs and such it becomes very difficult to resolve cunning wish and not have to sac lands to do it.
Dredge is fine if you can run actual hate in your board. If you have 15 1-ofs though you cant sideboard at all whereas Dredge brings in 15 cards.
The cunning wish version of the deck can win just as early but it's far less likely since you run (a) less MD hulk (b) less MD through the breach (c) less MD seething song (d) no Footsteps. You're actually about the same speed as an Ideal deck with Chrome Mox since your normal play is to wish turn 3 and kill turn 4.
A) I guess, however you run 4 cunning wish and 3 living wish which can act as hulk 4-10
B) I guess but you have 4 Cunning wish which can be called breach 4-7
C) What? No, both versions run 4.
D) Yes you're correct as it is more consistent. However, right now I am testing the other list I have with footsteps, Cwish, and LWish
Molten Rain is v.bad because it will always timewalk you (and sometimes double timewalk if you have the wrong lands in hand) and burn for two. So barring odd situations with multiple SSGs and such it becomes very difficult to resolve cunning wish and not have to sac lands to do it.
Molten rain is not the problem as much as it is a turn 2 vindicate. That hurts more. Against a deck that casts rain turn 3, you really don't have to worry because you have at least 2 more turns. I have never been mana screwed from a molten rain, however, it is annoying. You can still draw into the normal combo.
Now I will state:
YOU DO NOT NEED CUNNING WISH TO GO OFF. YOU DO NOT NEED LIVING WISH TO GO OFF. YOU NEED HULK AND BREACH TO GO OFF.
yeah - obviously I disagree with you, John. Spam Warning!.....Amazing - even in a forum where posts don't count, there's spam. That proves that getting rid of the post-count won't help getting rid of spam! Thans for this excellent example! - Craven
A) I guess, however you run 4 cunning wish and 3 living wish which can act as hulk 4-10
B) I guess but you have 4 Cunning wish which can be called breach 4-7
C) What? No, both versions run 4.
D) Yes you're correct as it is more consistent. However, right now I am testing the other list I have with footsteps, Cwish, and LWish
Molten rain is not the problem as much as it is a turn 2 vindicate. That hurts more. Against a deck that casts rain turn 3, you really don't have to worry because you have at least 2 more turns. I have never been mana screwed from a molten rain, however, it is annoying. You can still draw into the normal combo.
Now I will state:
YOU DO NOT NEED CUNNING WISH TO GO OFF. YOU DO NOT NEED LIVING WISH TO GO OFF. YOU NEED HULK AND BREACH TO GO OFF.
yo dude i'm not an idiot. I know that.
What I'm saying is since you run less copies of the actual cards Protean Hulk and Through the Breach in the main (3 vs 4) and no Footsteps, it's less likely that you can win without resolving a wish thus slowing you down.
Also Zoo has many openings that can T3 molten rain T4 kill you even without swiftblade. (like, anything with double tribal flames.) And Zoo should be starting to show up in numbers at PTQs because Death Cloud can't ever beat it.
I'd be interested to see the list with footsteps and both wishes - you probably wouldnt need to run more than 4-6 CIPT lands since nothing costs more than like 3.
Also to beat NLB with maindeck stifle all you have to do is win round 1.
What I'm saying is since you run less copies of the actual cards Protean Hulk and Through the Breach in the main (3 vs 4) and no Footsteps, it's less likely that you can win without resolving a wish thus slowing you down.
You actually run the same ammount of hulks if I remember correctly. Doesn't the footsteps version run Living wish?
yeah - obviously I disagree with you, John. Spam Warning!.....Amazing - even in a forum where posts don't count, there's spam. That proves that getting rid of the post-count won't help getting rid of spam! Thans for this excellent example! - Craven
Why is this deck in the upper Competitive then?
To me, it seems like it hasnt even shown its prowess on the PTQ scene yet.
Few Top8s, no PTQ wins, how does this get here?
If this belongs to the upper Competitive, shouldnt Goblins and a lot of the decks in lower Competitive be there too? The Mono Red Burn posts more top8s then Bubble Hulk, so does Goblins, Teps and a slew of other decks.
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i like "bubble hulk" better. also, ive added a singleton riftsweeper to the sideboard for anti-extirpate technology to search up with hulk mid combo if your opponent gets tricksy.
You actually run the same ammount of hulks if I remember correctly. Doesn't the footsteps version run Living wish?
Yes, I misspoke - replace "hulk" with "summoner's pact".
Something of interest to the endless Cabal Therapy vs. Thoughtseize discussion - an advantage of Therapy that nobody has realised yet is that it lets you go off through Chain of Vapor, Cryptic Command, and other assorted bounce. I think it's probably best to run a split - 4/2 or 3/3 thoughtseize/therapy should be about right.
Regarding the deck's name: I don't like Project R or Bubble Hulk that much, so after looking at the Article Bubble Hulk: Evolution, I thought of Hulk Evolution, anyone else think thats a great name?
Regarding Therapy vs Thoughtseize: I play 4 MD Tseize and 3 SB Duress. I don't like Therapy because you can't shoot and miss. I would rather guarentee my win then possibly lose because I miss named a card. The ability to name multiple cards is nigh-useless in this deck. Like when your playing NLU, if you Therapy the Counterspell, then they can just Stifle the Hulk trigger with Duress you can hit the most powerful card in their hand, guranteed.
the reason i play 3 therapy and 2 thoughtseize is that therapy also acts as a sac. outlet for hulk. I know im not the only one who sees hulk and no footsteps/TTB. I've had to run out the hulk with 7 mana before and with therapy, you've just enabled your combo.
There has been many times when I have hardcasted a Hulk and just started to swing FTW.
If you can hardcast a Hulk it basically means you win the game. You opponent can't kill it and if you opponent is playing aggro it means they couldn't kill you.
Against NLU though, they can Shackles it game one or counter it.
WHAT????
First off buddy if you are in a position to just start swinging with hulk then you should win. The games where this can happen are usually against midrange decks.
second if your opponent is playing aggro and you hard cast a hulk, you're right in that they can not kill the hulk however, You're wrong about them beating you. Most aggro decks can win just on attrition. Goblins is very able to cast 3-4 guys a turn with the help of ring leader and affinity can just cast a whole **** load of artifacts, sac them all to ravager, activate nexus/thopter sac ravager to nexus/thopter and win thorough the air as mr, big bad hulk can't jump so high.
Third, against Next Level Blue, if you hard cast it and they counter okay... but I highly doubt that they would shackles it. Chances are you would also be doing this game 2 in which case they would most likely side out the shackles.
EDIT: You should beat a NLB player game 1 by living wish (which usually people don't counter) and fetching Boseju.
as for the cabal therapy discussion, I actually really like it and it used to be in my cunning/living list instead of the 2 md chain of vapors and 1 md thoughtseize. However, in most situations, thoughtseize is just better. So I cut it for Chain and another thoughtseize.
Btw, the deck is called Bubble Hulk which Kuan named.
EDIT #2: This deck shouldn't be in the teir one decks. It should be on the competitive side however gobbos > Hulk
yeah - obviously I disagree with you, John. Spam Warning!.....Amazing - even in a forum where posts don't count, there's spam. That proves that getting rid of the post-count won't help getting rid of spam! Thans for this excellent example! - Craven
As you can see, its a pretty run of the mill bubble hulk deck, with a transformational Enduring Ideal board strategy against decks packing loads of GY hate (leyline, crypt, extirpate, etc.) basically, the exchange is as follows:
+4 Ideal,
+2 Form,
+2 Dovescape,
+2 Solitary,
+1 Honden
-3 summoners pact,
-3 living wish,
-2 footsteps of the goryo,
-1 through the breach,
-1 carrion feeder,
-1 thoughtseize
as you can see, the combo is still intact, as is the enduring ideal framework. ive seen leyline and crypt both hit the table first turn only to be locked down under dovescape+confinement.
i think cunning wish is definitly the way to go with this deck. the only advantage that living wish has over cunning wish is that it is a turn faster. other than that cunning wish is more versitile and is instant speed which IMHO is one of the greatest assets of the deck.
i dont think a transformation sb would be good in this deck unless you want to run more mana sources. most bubble hulk decks only run 18 lands while ideal runs 23. our mana base would not be able to power out enduring ideal quickly consistintly.
i find that Jailer is very important game 1, as is kataki against their respective decks... as i frequently wish for them game 1 in that MU.
right, with 18-19 land its hard to power out a quick ideal effectively. but against tons of GY hate, the opp. will sit back and play easy because they know we're screwed. we'll probably have 6-7 turns against g2 graveyard hate seeing as its 5-9 slots in their deck that they're dedicating to stop Hulk combo.
http://www.deckcheck.net/event.php?event=GPT+Vienna+in+Zagreb
The List
Lands
3 Sulfur Vent
2 Ancient Spring
4 City of Brass
2 Irrigation Ditch
3 Tinder Farm
4 Gemstone Mine
// Creatures
1 Bile Urchin
2 Carrion Feeder
2 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Reveillark
1 Mogg Fanatic
2 Body Double
3 Protean Hulk
// Spells
4 Cunning Wish
3 Reach Through Mists
3 Thoughtseize
1 Chrome Mox
3 Living Wish
4 Seething Song
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Summoner's Pact
3 Through the Breach
3 Orim's Chant
// Sideboard
SB: 1 Protean Hulk
SB: 1 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Summoner's Pact
SB: 1 Through the Breach
SB: 1 Orim's Chant
SB: 1 Extirpate
SB: 1 Ray of Revelation
SB: 1 Wispmare
SB: 1 Shriekmaw
SB: 1 Shifty Doppelganger
SB: 1 Ingot Chewer
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 3 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
Choices:
Reach though mists: This gives blue decks another threat to counter as you can splice on the breach.
Everything else should be pretty much self explanitory. I am not sure if I like the sideboard, however it has proven to be good.
------------------------------------------------------------
The matchups- All tested with players of 1800+ rating, 10 games each. The first 3 preboard, the last 7 postboard.
Goblins/affinity/zoo --- 50/50, it really comes down to how much pressure they put on you and how fast you're able to go off.
NLB/tog variants --- 70/30, this matchup comes down to orims chants, winning in response to draw spells such as thirst, FoF, the element of suprise, Chants and splicing. When they sb in extripates/leylines you just have more hate to push though. At one point, I won though a needle naming feeder, a leyline, another needle naming feeder, a crypt, and counterspells.
Doran aggro ---- 60/40, I fail to see how this was in favor of us, however unless they hit their pinpoint discard this is a realitivly easy matchup. They sb in more hate and it could potentially be a problem. IE: Duress + extripate.
Rock/Gifts rock --- 60/40, once again this matchup comes down to them hitting their pinpoint discard.
Ideal - 50/50 If ideal casts ideal before you combo out, you lose. If you cast breach + hulk before they do, you win. Simple as that. Wish for a wispmare early inorder to get around a hardcasted confinement.
TEPS - 70/30, Lol. They can't really stop you from going off. Chant really shines in this matchup and you could normally make them combo off then mana burn them.
Dredge- 40/60, This matchup is somewhat annoying. If they dredge half their deck then cast multiple Cabal therapys you have a problem. If they don't you usually have a pretty good chance at winning. An Early cunning wish for extripate helps in this matchup, however, sometimes its just not enough. I thought about putting an offalsnout in the board to make the matchup more favorable however, I wasn't sure what to cut. Game 2 can get really annoying. They bring in leylines. The combination of this, pinpoint discard, and an rediculously fast clock can sometimes just win them the game. Goal for this match: Make them mulligan.:p
Decks not tested: Death cloud (we didn't have it built yet) and Aggroloam
Well there you go.
Thanks.
As for the gifts thing, that seems interesting. Let me know how that tests.
First, I don’t know why you think Footsteps is clunky? The original deck, and the one I’m running, uses eight, not four, ways to get Protean Hulk into the Graveyard, four Careful Study and Thoughtsieze. I have never had a problem getting the Hulk into the Graveyard. My biggest problem has always been getting the right combination of mana to be able to get the hulk into the graveyard and combo out on the same turn.
From the list you provided, it appears your deck actually has only 3 ways, main deck of going off instead of eight. Even if you include your four Cunning Wish, to be able t wish for Through the Breach, you still only have seven ways as compared to the eight when you use Footsteps. What it looks like you’ve done, is take a very explosive and somewhat resilient combo deck and weakened it’s explosiveness in order to shore up its defenses.
Interestingly, your matchup vs. Goblins/Zoo/Affinity is only 50/50 which is horrendous for a combo deck vs. agro. The average kill for Hulk is usually about 1 to 2 turns before any of the agro decks kill. On the other hand you’ve strengthened the matchup quite well vs. control. The deck was already good at winning through hate, which was one of its strengths. I’m glad the deck can win a game where you face two needles, Leyline, Crypt and counterspells but it shouldn’t have to win through 4+ pieces of hate. The game should never take that long that the NLB or control player has the opportunity to get that much hate out on it.
Personally, I would be much more afraid about weakening the combo deck vs. agro decks than strengthening it vs. NLB, since you’ll probably see more Goblins/Zoo/Affinity together than NLB. Also, for the Dredge matchup, Hulk is usually 50/50 vs. Dredge. It’s more who wins the dye roll than anything else. While your deck gives the advantage to Dredge by allowing them time to go off or get Cabal Therapy in the graveyard to kill your combo.
I’m just wondering, why build a deck more resilient to less decks in the field and weaken it towards the larger percentage of decks you’d face at a PTQ?
What is worst? Discard or blue magic?
Footsteps is clunky because generally you thoughtseize your opponent unless you have a footsteps in hand. Maybe I have been playing the deck too conservativly.
I guess... In my version it is easier to get all the combo pieces insead of relying on two different combos and the right combination of cards. Focusing on a single combo makes the deck more consistent.
Are you sure about that? Everytime I played with the other version (tcg list) I found my self in the same situations. I found the deck was very inconsistent. Also, every game that aggro killed me, I needed a seething song to win. I have found that the song is one of the most important enablers in the deck. (obv...) One matchup that was really put the pressure on was Burn. They frequently had me down to 9-11 by turn 2. Which meant if I let them untap I would more than likely die.
Thanks? However, when the player goes turn 1 needle crypt leyline, turn 2 needle, there is a problem. Lol, I was like wtf.... and eventually casted multiple creatures to just swing in ftw. However, at one point I could have comboed off as I had 2 chain of vapors and a cunning wish however, I was 2 mana short :frowntown:.
Any decent player who can flip half their deck into the grave and reveal therapies with at least 1 bridges in grave, when I play a first turn invasion sac land will with out a doubt cast everyone they have. Now you're right about the coin flip, it is a very draw dependent match.
Well I was making the deck more consistent than actually trying to win though more hate. However, when I took the footsteps combo out I found my self with roughly 7-11 slots to play with. I guess in all honesty you could put the footsteps back in however, I found it inconsistent. If you want to do that I would run the deck like this.
Lands
3 Sulfur Vent
2 Ancient Spring
4 City of Brass
2 Irrigation Ditch
3 Tinder Farm
4 Gemstone Mine
// Creatures
-1 Bile Urchin
+1 Hapless Researcher
2 Carrion Feeder
2 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Reveillark
1 Mogg Fanatic
2 Body Double
3 Protean Hulk
// Spells
4 Cunning Wish
3 Thoughtseize
1 Chrome Mox
3 Living Wish
4 Seething Song
3 Summoner's Pact
3 Through the Breach
-3 Orim's Chant
-2 Chain of Vapor
+4 footsteps of the goryo
+1 Thoughtseize
-3 Reach Through Mists
+3 Careful study
// Sideboard
SB: 1 Protean Hulk
SB: 1 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Summoner's Pact
SB: 1 Through the Breach
SB: 1 Orim's Chant
SB: 1 Extirpate
SB: 1 Ray of Revelation
SB: 1 Wispmare
SB: 1 Shriekmaw
SB: 1 Shifty Doppelganger
SB: 1 Ingot Chewer
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 3 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
Something like that.
Cunning wish is amazing though as Milkman suggested (I think). It can get any piece of the combo.
1. Don't build the deck at 11:00 the night before the tournament and then test it for three hours.....
<ahem />
...better and brighter things now....
I had a fairly standard list but here is what I would have played after the testing I put in at the tournament:
3 Sulfur Vent
2 Ancient Spring
4 City of Brass
3 Tinder Farm
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
3 Yavimaya Coast
Creatures
2 Carrion Feeder
2 Reveillark
1 Mogg Fanatic
2 Body Double
3 Protean Hulk
1 Draco
1 Rakdos, the Defiler
3 Cunning Wish
3 Chrome Mox
3 Living Wish
4 Seething Song
2 Summoner's Pact
3 Through the Breach
3 Footsteps of the Goryo
3 Careful study
2 Insidious Dreams
1 Erratic Explosion
1 Protean Hulk
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Summoner's Pact
1 Through the Breach
1 Insidious Dreams
1 Extirpate
1 Krosan Grip
1 Wispmare
1 Shriekmaw
1 Shifty Doppelganger
1 Ingot Chewer
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Tarnished Citadel
1 Yixlid Jailer
My Slops play of the tournament: Ideal player at two life, I have mogg fanatic on the board and erratic explosion in hand. Erratic a Summoner's Pact:-/. Am I ever glad he decided to pop a fetchland
The cunning wish package is so good, so many times it was turn 2/3 wish for 1/2 of my combo, next turn go off. I don't have 4 living wih, maybe an insidious dreams or footsteps of the goryo could be cut for one more.
I only use Thoughtsieze vs. my opponent if my opponent has something I care about that could possibly stop my combo. Only one deck has anything main deck that I really care about and that’s NLB’s counters. Game two vs. Rock or Goblins, if I have Thoughtsieze and can go off without it, I’ll use it vs. them to possibly remove Extirpate before I go off, but that’s about it.
Explain to me how it’s easier? Your deck only has one route to your combo and you play 7 cards main deck to do it. Also, four of your seven cards don’t actually let you go off that turn, unless you have a good bit of mana. The original Hulk plays two ways to get the combo rolling and 8 cards main deck to do it. Not to mention, you weren’t playing Careful Study in your original version, you played Reach Through the Mists, which actually lets you see less cards.
I would think this decks kill is between turn 3 and turn 4. If it wasn’t, Dredge would still be the better combo deck. Yes there are times when you just get lousy draws and you don’t go off at all. (This happens if you have to mulligan several times or you keep a hand without Footsteps/Breach and your Careful Studies don’t show anything.) For the most part though, you go off turn 3 or 4 and about 15% of the time, turn 2. Can Affinity/Golbins/Zoo kill you by turn 3? No. Can they kill you by turn 4? Of the three I think Zoo has the best chance to do that while Goblins/Affinity look more at killing by turn 5+ using Thoughtcast and Goblin Ringleader to keep the gas flowing. Goblins doesn’t use burn and Affinity only runs Shrapnel Blast. They can get a god draw and possibly win by turn 4 but again that’s their God draw.
If my opponent goes T1, Needle, Crypt, Leyline, T2 Needle, I’m just going to give my hand to them and congratulate them on being an incredible luck sack and getting the insane “I beat Hulk” hand. Then move on to the next game.
Yup, I’ve been playing this matchup with a friend, who’s bringing Dredge to the NC PTQ this weekend and it’s pretty much a coin flip.
Yes, it’s nice being able to use Cunning Wish to get Pact if you need it or to get Breech, but I still maintain, I think it’s harder and slower for you to get the combo off than a deck running Footseps. What happens when you need to cast both Cunning Wish and Living Wish to get your pieces? That’s at least one full turn slower if not more.
Cunning Wish:
13 ways to get Protean Hulk main deck, 14 ways including board.
(3 x Hulk, 3 x Living Wish, 3 x Summoner’s Pact, 4 x Cunning Wish and 1 x Summoner’s pact in board.)
10 ways to get combo started main deck. 10 ways including board.
(3 x Through the Breech, 3 x Living Wish, 4 x Cunning Wish)
Footseps:
10 ways to get Protean Hulk main deck, 10 ways including board.
(3 x Hulk, 3 x Summoner’s Pact, 4 x Living Wish)
12 ways to get combo started main deck.
(4 x Breech, 4 x Footsteps, 4 x Living Wish)
hey knowledge, you going to the sacramento ptq with this??? because i'm debating whether i want a cunning wish/dracoxplosion list... LMK and we'll collaborate
We tested Cunning Wish and it worked out fine...
then we played against RDW with molten rain. If you get T3 molten rained with the cunning wish version you can pretty much never ever win.
Also Dredge gives you fits post board. You cant sideboard because you have 15 wish targets and every card in their board owns you. Needle/Leyline? obv. Echoing Truth/Chain? even worse. Also they're two turns faster than you.
Just something to note.
Molten Rain is v.bad because it will always timewalk you (and sometimes double timewalk if you have the wrong lands in hand) and burn for two. So barring odd situations with multiple SSGs and such it becomes very difficult to resolve cunning wish and not have to sac lands to do it.
Dredge is fine if you can run actual hate in your board. If you have 15 1-ofs though you cant sideboard at all whereas Dredge brings in 15 cards.
A) I guess, however you run 4 cunning wish and 3 living wish which can act as hulk 4-10
B) I guess but you have 4 Cunning wish which can be called breach 4-7
C) What? No, both versions run 4.
D) Yes you're correct as it is more consistent. However, right now I am testing the other list I have with footsteps, Cwish, and LWish
Molten rain is not the problem as much as it is a turn 2 vindicate. That hurts more. Against a deck that casts rain turn 3, you really don't have to worry because you have at least 2 more turns. I have never been mana screwed from a molten rain, however, it is annoying. You can still draw into the normal combo.
Now I will state:
YOU DO NOT NEED CUNNING WISH TO GO OFF. YOU DO NOT NEED LIVING WISH TO GO OFF. YOU NEED HULK AND BREACH TO GO OFF.
yo dude i'm not an idiot. I know that.
What I'm saying is since you run less copies of the actual cards Protean Hulk and Through the Breach in the main (3 vs 4) and no Footsteps, it's less likely that you can win without resolving a wish thus slowing you down.
Also Zoo has many openings that can T3 molten rain T4 kill you even without swiftblade. (like, anything with double tribal flames.) And Zoo should be starting to show up in numbers at PTQs because Death Cloud can't ever beat it.
I'd be interested to see the list with footsteps and both wishes - you probably wouldnt need to run more than 4-6 CIPT lands since nothing costs more than like 3.
Also to beat NLB with maindeck stifle all you have to do is win round 1.
You actually run the same ammount of hulks if I remember correctly. Doesn't the footsteps version run Living wish?
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To me, it seems like it hasnt even shown its prowess on the PTQ scene yet.
Few Top8s, no PTQ wins, how does this get here?
If this belongs to the upper Competitive, shouldnt Goblins and a lot of the decks in lower Competitive be there too? The Mono Red Burn posts more top8s then Bubble Hulk, so does Goblins, Teps and a slew of other decks.
2. then type 6 or 9
3. Scroll Back here
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The deck's name is "Bubble Hulk," not Project R.
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?id=7953
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?id=7962
Yes, I misspoke - replace "hulk" with "summoner's pact".
Something of interest to the endless Cabal Therapy vs. Thoughtseize discussion - an advantage of Therapy that nobody has realised yet is that it lets you go off through Chain of Vapor, Cryptic Command, and other assorted bounce. I think it's probably best to run a split - 4/2 or 3/3 thoughtseize/therapy should be about right.
the reason i play 3 therapy and 2 thoughtseize is that therapy also acts as a sac. outlet for hulk. I know im not the only one who sees hulk and no footsteps/TTB. I've had to run out the hulk with 7 mana before and with therapy, you've just enabled your combo.
WHAT????
First off buddy if you are in a position to just start swinging with hulk then you should win. The games where this can happen are usually against midrange decks.
second if your opponent is playing aggro and you hard cast a hulk, you're right in that they can not kill the hulk however, You're wrong about them beating you. Most aggro decks can win just on attrition. Goblins is very able to cast 3-4 guys a turn with the help of ring leader and affinity can just cast a whole **** load of artifacts, sac them all to ravager, activate nexus/thopter sac ravager to nexus/thopter and win thorough the air as mr, big bad hulk can't jump so high.
Third, against Next Level Blue, if you hard cast it and they counter okay... but I highly doubt that they would shackles it. Chances are you would also be doing this game 2 in which case they would most likely side out the shackles.
EDIT: You should beat a NLB player game 1 by living wish (which usually people don't counter) and fetching Boseju.
as for the cabal therapy discussion, I actually really like it and it used to be in my cunning/living list instead of the 2 md chain of vapors and 1 md thoughtseize. However, in most situations, thoughtseize is just better. So I cut it for Chain and another thoughtseize.
Btw, the deck is called Bubble Hulk which Kuan named.
EDIT #2: This deck shouldn't be in the teir one decks. It should be on the competitive side however gobbos > Hulk
2 Gemstone Mine
4 Tinder Farm
4 Sulfur Vent
2 Ancient Spring
2 Tendo Ice Bridge
1 Mogg Fanatic
3 Protean Hulk
2 Body Double
2 Carrion Feeder
2 Reveillark
3 Summoner's Pact
4 Through the Breach
4 Footsteps of the Goryo
4 Careful Study
3 Living Wish
3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Chrome Mox
1 Protean Hulk
1 Rakdos the Defiler
1 Yixlid Jailer
1 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Dovescape
2 Solitary Confinement
1 Honden of Seeing Winds
2 Form of the Dragon
4 Enduring Ideal
As you can see, its a pretty run of the mill bubble hulk deck, with a transformational Enduring Ideal board strategy against decks packing loads of GY hate (leyline, crypt, extirpate, etc.) basically, the exchange is as follows:
+4 Ideal,
+2 Form,
+2 Dovescape,
+2 Solitary,
+1 Honden
-3 summoners pact,
-3 living wish,
-2 footsteps of the goryo,
-1 through the breach,
-1 carrion feeder,
-1 thoughtseize
as you can see, the combo is still intact, as is the enduring ideal framework. ive seen leyline and crypt both hit the table first turn only to be locked down under dovescape+confinement.
its a strategy worth exploring
4 Sulfur Vent
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Watery Grave
4 Ancient Spring
1 Tinder Farm
Creatures
4 Protean Hulk
2 Body Double
2 Carrion Feeder
2 Reveillark
1 Mogg Fanatic
1 Rakdos the Defiler
3 Seething Song
3 Summoner's Pact
4 Thoughtseize
3 Through the Breach
4 Cunning Wish
4 Footsteps of the Goryo
4 Careful Study
2 Duress
1 Seething Song
1 Summoner's Pact
1 Through the Breach
3 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
3 Chain of Vapor
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Piracy Charm
2 Echoing Truth
1 Mana Short
1 Pull from Eternity
i think cunning wish is definitly the way to go with this deck. the only advantage that living wish has over cunning wish is that it is a turn faster. other than that cunning wish is more versitile and is instant speed which IMHO is one of the greatest assets of the deck.
i dont think a transformation sb would be good in this deck unless you want to run more mana sources. most bubble hulk decks only run 18 lands while ideal runs 23. our mana base would not be able to power out enduring ideal quickly consistintly.
right, with 18-19 land its hard to power out a quick ideal effectively. but against tons of GY hate, the opp. will sit back and play easy because they know we're screwed. we'll probably have 6-7 turns against g2 graveyard hate seeing as its 5-9 slots in their deck that they're dedicating to stop Hulk combo.
2 Gemstone Mine
4 Tinder Farm
4 Sulfur Vent
3 Ancient Spring
2 Tendo Ice Bridge
1 Watery Grave
1 Mogg Fanatic
3 Protean Hulk
2 Body Double
2 Carrion Feeder
2 Reveillark
3 Summoner's Pact
4 Through the Breach
4 Footsteps of the Goryo
4 Careful Study
3 Living Wish
3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Chrome Mox
1 Protean Hulk
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Yixlid Jailer
1 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Dovescape
2 Solitary Confinement
1 Honden of Seeing Winds
2 Form of the Dragon
4 Enduring Ideal