Hello, I am a real noob in Extended. I played Tezzerator last season and did average because I really didn't know the format well. Once again I want to play and I'm wondering what beats Zoo?
I'm thinking of playing Affinity or Dredge...
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Scapeshift combo is practically a bye against zoo. Affinity just doesn't have the game anymore to beat zoo unless it god draws like it can. All in Red has a very good matchup against zoo, but is prone to fizzling like only All in Red can. Dredge has a good game 1 against zoo, but loses a ton post board depending on what hate the zoo board is packing. Tezz seems to have a decent game against zoo, it's pretty even, and simply comes down to play skill in my opinion.
if you are looking for a deck without a 200$ mana base mono red burn rolls over zoo without trying. if you don't wanna bother learning the format tho just play dredge and learn how to play against the hate.
Hello, I am a real noob in Extended. I played Tezzerator last season and did average because I really didn't know the format well. Once again I want to play and I'm wondering what beats Zoo?
I'm thinking of playing Affinity or Dredge...
Well that depends on what kind of zoo you are talking about,
Rubin zoo, easily has the worst mana base available in all the zoo archetypes and the control decks of the format really pick up on that. i.e. Tezzeret, Scapeshift, next level.
Saito zoo, has a better mana base but still runs a horrible curve and faster decks should and will beat it as long as jitte isn't active along with control decks that have a hand interacts with your opponent(wrath, path EE)
Juza zoo, now this is a real zoo deck, it has a great mana base because the curve is so low all you need to do is find the mana to make your Might of alara and Tribal Flames go the distance. The midrange zoo decks(posted above) beat the living hell out of this zoo because of one thing only: they have bigger dudes, but of course they have a really bad mana base so if your hand is all speed, then you are good to go. this build also harks on control decks because a turn one beater can actually go the way esp if its a steppe lynx. Dark depths and also other challice runners main laugh at this deck, but don't laugh long because they can die to burn in their hand.
Burton Zoo, its kind of like juza zoo in the retrospect that it doesn't run big fatty boom booms but it runs some key cards that can actually hurt scapeshift if not countered, and that is Molten Rain this card if resolved can actually buy enough time for zoo to try and dig out of the hole they were set in. The only reason I see the deck doing so well is because the mana bases were that bad, as is always at the beginning of the season, but better zoo and control beat this hands down.
Zoo is the best matchup of scapeshift, with repeal, firespout, sakura tribe elder, remand, you have all the time you want to wait for the 7 land, well the 6 land, because zoo burn himself with the fetch so 15 should be enought.
Um scapeshift needs 7 land to go off, if you try to go off with 6 you won't deal any damage.
But yeah scapeshift is highly favored.
I don't favor AIR against zoo really anymore. They have noble hiearch and path and more basics now so it is iffy for AIR, I think it is more like 50-50.
Zoo still has a terrible matchup against a resolved Blood Moon. As people mentioned it's gétting better, but dropping a t3 moon against them is often enough to seal the deal.
Kitchen Finks is also pretty damn good against them, as is any real concerted lifegain or monowhite control strategy. And the U/W mantchup is a lot closer than 70-30. Rubin zoo is about 65-35, and the fast zoo variants are very close to 50-50 and are highly draw dependent.
Hypergenesis aint terrible against zoo either.
Finally, if you're looking to build a deck that beats zoo, go for something that attacks its weaknesses, such as going after its mana, or invalidates its strengths by handling its creatures and staying out of burn range.
The "fast Zoo variants" still get smoked. It doesn't matter if they have Steppe Lynx or Molten Rain or even Kavu Predator. When you have Path to Exile, Spell Snare, Mana Leak, Wrath of God, Day of Judgment, Engineered Explosives...it doesn't matter. If they play too many threats, they walk into a sweeper. If they play too few threats, they get rung up by singleton removal and give you too much time. Your win condition gives you life AND blockers.
I've been play testing Extended for almost a month now. The reason I like Thopter is BECAUSE it smokes Zoo. (and All-In Red). I've playtested the match-up in and out against at least four different Zoo builds, including the slower Kibler build with Baneslayers and the faster versions with Steppe Lynx and the more tempo versions with Molten Rain. It's not close at all. Both pre and post sideboarding. This isn't just theory, I have personal results that led me to this conclusion and my playtest circle would agree. In fact, Thopter is so strong, in our opinion, that we're all running it this PTQ season and are now focusing on the mirror match-up as we feel others are going to come to the same conclusion.
People should stop listening to LSV and reading ChannelFireball and test on their own.
This isn't just theory, I have personal results that led me to this conclusion and my playtest circle would agree. In fact, Thopter is so strong, in our opinion, that we're all running it this PTQ season and are now focusing on the mirror match-up as we feel others are going to come to the same conclusion.
I do see the format tilting more towards Thropter Control and Scapeshfit.
I do see the format tilting more towards Thropter Control and Scapeshfit.
Yeah I think this is what is going to happen, the real question is what does zoo actually beat? Stuff like Faeries and Bant maybe not much else. Tezz is the deck that people really need to figure out how to beat really.
thopter control(tezzerator) rolls over zoo hard while being able to have maindeck hate for just about the whole entire field. Scapshift has a decent game vs the field except it owns tez. Dredge essential goldfishes vs most decks game one, but must play through tons of sideboard hate. Finally hypergenisis has about ten% on the whole entire field as long as there opponents don't have counters or chalice of the void.
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1-Copy effects
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4-Type changing effects
5-Color changing effects
6-Giving/Taking Abilities
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Thopter is really good when it plays as U/W control with a mana base that doesn't get wrecked by Blood Moon/Magus of the Moon. In Extended, people are too worried about trying to add more colors and making their manabase all wonky trying to find some "tech." That's exactly what the Kitchen Finks is. You don't need it. It's overkill. I love Thopter because it plays like old school control, only instead of winning with Kjeldoran Outpost or Morphling, you're winning with Thopter Foundry and Tezzeret the Seeker. Outside of being able to make EE be 3, I see no reason to risk being bad against the Moon when so many people are packing it.
Admittedly I do need to test against Scapeshift though.
Right... people should stop listening to one of the most accomplished and successful MtG Pros and listen to your horrible advice to play ThopterFoundry.dec that rolls over to Leyline of the Void and SB Extirpates. I think I'll listen to LSV thanks. Especially seeing as I NEVER lost to Thopters EVER even playing AIR which is by far the worst deck in the format.
I played a few matches of SS vs. Tezz today, it seems like the match up is really easy for SS game 1 as you just put your lands out there and ramp into your signature card with remand back up.
Game 2 it seems like the odds switch and Tezz is a slight favorite as the meddling mages and Glen Elenderas make things a lot more tricky and it is like playing against a fish deck. Still it is not hard for SS if you can keep the archmage off the table. A resolved archmage with double blue open seems like gg though.
I like how people are suggesting tier 2 decks to beat Zoo. Why not just play a form of UW control? You can customize with the foundry combo, tez, gifts, or even splash green like lsv did to win a recent tourny. Regardless, they all have a good game vs Zoo and don't really auto lose to any good decks.
Yes, Thopter "rolls over" to graveyard hate. *rolls eyes* LOL! Never lost to it ever! These forums are comedy.
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Game 2 it seems like the odds switch and Tezz is a slight favorite as the meddling mages and Glen Elenderas make things a lot more tricky and it is like playing against a fish deck. Still it is not hard for SS if you can keep the archmage off the table. A resolved archmage with double blue open seems like gg though.
Well, our Sideboard is going to be a lot different as I'm not playing the LSV build, but I still have similar results from my (admittedly limited) experience with the match-up. I have quite a few dead cards too, as my build is currently to stop quick attacking decks (Zoo, AIR, DD). A Path on a Wood Elves isn't so clutch...
Thopter doesn't lose to graveyard hate consistantly. There is a thing called a sideboard and the majority of the time your boarding in other win conditions, baneslayer, or disruption to deal with the hate, meddling mage, glen elendra archmage. Honestly, as far as a well positioned deck to win which is adjusted to the current metagame both pre and post board goes, i think thopter combo is the best candidate.
Yes, Thopter "rolls over" to graveyard hate. *rolls eyes* LOL! Never lost to it ever! These forums are comedy.
Well, our Sideboard is going to be a lot different as I'm not playing the LSV build, but I still have similar results from my (admittedly limited) experience with the match-up. I have quite a few dead cards too, as my build is currently to stop quick attacking decks (Zoo, AIR, DD). A Path on a Wood Elves isn't so clutch...
Sure roll your eyes, but as soon as you actually win something with Tezz/Foundry (which is doubtful as the meta shifts soon anyway) you let me know and I bet I'll still have a winning streak against that horrible deck... as for Faeries, which is just outright better, I will probably have lost too quite a few times.
The thing that kills me about people who champion Tezz/Foundry is how they seem to ignore that Pithing Needle, Leyline, Tormod's Crypt, Shattering Spree, and Ancient Grudge are all playable and frequently sideboarded.
Sure roll your eyes, but as soon as you actually win something with Tezz/Foundry (which is doubtful as the meta shifts soon anyway) you let me know and I bet I'll still have a winning streak against that horrible deck... as for Faeries, which is just outright better, I will probably have lost too quite a few times.
The thing that kills me about people who champion Tezz/Foundry is how they seem to ignore that Pithing Needle, Leyline, Tormod's Crypt, Shattering Spree, and Ancient Grudge are all playable and frequently sideboarded.
you do not seem to be crediting thopter foundry combo the resiliency it has. It plays acadamy ruins and counters to deal with many of the hate cards. while i admit leyline and extirpates are a pain in the ass, tormod's crypt does nearly nothing while the others are easily answered.
you do not seem to be crediting thopter foundry combo the resiliency it has. It plays acadamy ruins and counters to deal with many of the hate cards. while i admit leyline and extirpates are a pain in the ass, tormod's crypt does nearly nothing while the others are easily answered.
I don't have to give any credit to a deck I've never lost to. You may not be aware of this but my testing grounds are the MTGO Competitive 8-Man Queues and the Premier Events and thus I have found that Tezz/Foundry is a Teir 2 deck at best and is incapable of surviving a "known meta" therefore the deck is way to easily hated out and is inconsistant because of the toolbox approach that many of the pilots choose to take with the deck. Not to mention the splash hate the deck takes from Dredge and Affinity.
we are getting off track here. if you want to discuss the resilience or lack thereof of tezz vs hate, do it in the tezz thread. if you want to beat zoo, play burn or scapeshift, or a deck with blood moon.
A good, fast control deck can keep one down for quite a while, but not necessarily a U/W, If you make a control deck with a good, fast killing blow, you're (for the most part) set against a lot of decks (usually through a liberal use of wraths, banefires and baneslayers *shudders*) but a run-of-the mill control deck probably won't quite cut it (especially against a Rubin's Zoo, if they've saved their Knights up for a later-game.)
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I'm thinking of playing Affinity or Dredge...
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Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Well that depends on what kind of zoo you are talking about,
Rubin zoo, easily has the worst mana base available in all the zoo archetypes and the control decks of the format really pick up on that. i.e. Tezzeret, Scapeshift, next level.
Saito zoo, has a better mana base but still runs a horrible curve and faster decks should and will beat it as long as jitte isn't active along with control decks that have a hand interacts with your opponent(wrath, path EE)
Juza zoo, now this is a real zoo deck, it has a great mana base because the curve is so low all you need to do is find the mana to make your Might of alara and Tribal Flames go the distance. The midrange zoo decks(posted above) beat the living hell out of this zoo because of one thing only: they have bigger dudes, but of course they have a really bad mana base so if your hand is all speed, then you are good to go. this build also harks on control decks because a turn one beater can actually go the way esp if its a steppe lynx. Dark depths and also other challice runners main laugh at this deck, but don't laugh long because they can die to burn in their hand.
Burton Zoo, its kind of like juza zoo in the retrospect that it doesn't run big fatty boom booms but it runs some key cards that can actually hurt scapeshift if not countered, and that is Molten Rain this card if resolved can actually buy enough time for zoo to try and dig out of the hole they were set in. The only reason I see the deck doing so well is because the mana bases were that bad, as is always at the beginning of the season, but better zoo and control beat this hands down.
Um scapeshift needs 7 land to go off, if you try to go off with 6 you won't deal any damage.
But yeah scapeshift is highly favored.
I don't favor AIR against zoo really anymore. They have noble hiearch and path and more basics now so it is iffy for AIR, I think it is more like 50-50.
Kitchen Finks is also pretty damn good against them, as is any real concerted lifegain or monowhite control strategy. And the U/W mantchup is a lot closer than 70-30. Rubin zoo is about 65-35, and the fast zoo variants are very close to 50-50 and are highly draw dependent.
Hypergenesis aint terrible against zoo either.
Finally, if you're looking to build a deck that beats zoo, go for something that attacks its weaknesses, such as going after its mana, or invalidates its strengths by handling its creatures and staying out of burn range.
I've been play testing Extended for almost a month now. The reason I like Thopter is BECAUSE it smokes Zoo. (and All-In Red). I've playtested the match-up in and out against at least four different Zoo builds, including the slower Kibler build with Baneslayers and the faster versions with Steppe Lynx and the more tempo versions with Molten Rain. It's not close at all. Both pre and post sideboarding. This isn't just theory, I have personal results that led me to this conclusion and my playtest circle would agree. In fact, Thopter is so strong, in our opinion, that we're all running it this PTQ season and are now focusing on the mirror match-up as we feel others are going to come to the same conclusion.
People should stop listening to LSV and reading ChannelFireball and test on their own.
I do see the format tilting more towards Thropter Control and Scapeshfit.
Yeah I think this is what is going to happen, the real question is what does zoo actually beat? Stuff like Faeries and Bant maybe not much else. Tezz is the deck that people really need to figure out how to beat really.
2-Control changing effects
3-Text changing effects
4-Type changing effects
5-Color changing effects
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7b-All effects not described in other layer 6 effects
7c-Counters
7d-Static abilities that don't set P/T (Crusade effects)
7e-Switching P/T
Admittedly I do need to test against Scapeshift though.
Right... people should stop listening to one of the most accomplished and successful MtG Pros and listen to your horrible advice to play ThopterFoundry.dec that rolls over to Leyline of the Void and SB Extirpates. I think I'll listen to LSV thanks. Especially seeing as I NEVER lost to Thopters EVER even playing AIR which is by far the worst deck in the format.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=5401186#post5401186
Game 2 it seems like the odds switch and Tezz is a slight favorite as the meddling mages and Glen Elenderas make things a lot more tricky and it is like playing against a fish deck. Still it is not hard for SS if you can keep the archmage off the table. A resolved archmage with double blue open seems like gg though.
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Well, our Sideboard is going to be a lot different as I'm not playing the LSV build, but I still have similar results from my (admittedly limited) experience with the match-up. I have quite a few dead cards too, as my build is currently to stop quick attacking decks (Zoo, AIR, DD). A Path on a Wood Elves isn't so clutch...
Sure roll your eyes, but as soon as you actually win something with Tezz/Foundry (which is doubtful as the meta shifts soon anyway) you let me know and I bet I'll still have a winning streak against that horrible deck... as for Faeries, which is just outright better, I will probably have lost too quite a few times.
The thing that kills me about people who champion Tezz/Foundry is how they seem to ignore that Pithing Needle, Leyline, Tormod's Crypt, Shattering Spree, and Ancient Grudge are all playable and frequently sideboarded.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=5401186#post5401186
you do not seem to be crediting thopter foundry combo the resiliency it has. It plays acadamy ruins and counters to deal with many of the hate cards. while i admit leyline and extirpates are a pain in the ass, tormod's crypt does nearly nothing while the others are easily answered.
I don't have to give any credit to a deck I've never lost to. You may not be aware of this but my testing grounds are the MTGO Competitive 8-Man Queues and the Premier Events and thus I have found that Tezz/Foundry is a Teir 2 deck at best and is incapable of surviving a "known meta" therefore the deck is way to easily hated out and is inconsistant because of the toolbox approach that many of the pilots choose to take with the deck. Not to mention the splash hate the deck takes from Dredge and Affinity.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=5401186#post5401186
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