It is actually on the cheaper side of legendary items, and really if you want an early Chalice then I think upgrading to the Grail right away is probably best as the Grail is best in lane given it's passives and mana regen. Plus the MR helps out against opposing mids.
It's not so much the cost of other items, but what it gives you for that cost... and a lot of that is mana regen and magic resist, both of which you should have enough of for early/mid with just chalice, in most cases.
Galio does indeed benefit from stacking more mres, but you should also be trying to get some health after chalice before more mres... and roa is usually the way to go for that, so it knocks out any future mana problems too. Even if you choose to not go the ROA route, there're better things for you to build at that time and quite possibly better sources of MR (eg bveil because it also gives health and/or to prevent ccs that can go on you through your ult).
Kayle top is strong only because it counters the popular tops right now. Namely Vlad, WW, Riven, Shen, GP, Nid, and Udyr. But she is a risky top as she has a lot of hard counters that just shut her down. And without farm Kayle is bad.
Not true, it's also strong because she has ridiculous late game potential. If you play kayle and don't get a lot of farm, you either got counterpicked or played poorly. Or your team lost the game before you could get there anyway... She has all the tools to get it - not to mention almost every other top is also useless without farm. She has some hard counters that shut her down, yea, but so does every top.
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I understand that they did this for balance reasons, but unlike Twisted Fate and Pantheon, Shen's kit is tanky and his ultimate is defensive in nature (not offensive) - which plays into the idea that his ultimate is for saving people. The enemy team isn't going to wait for you to get into range before diving, that's why the global ultimate is so important on him. I have to mull it over, but I honestly think that they just kicked him in the junk here.
Yea, I was thinking about getting him kinda soon but now I won't.
Even if the author is silenced, the performance is stopped, the story will not end.
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For the us who are still in it and still in the journey, send warm blessings.
- We will continue to walk down this path until eternity.
It's not so much the cost of other items, but what it gives you for that cost... and a lot of that is mana regen and magic resist, both of which you should have enough of for early/mid with just chalice, in most cases.
The champs that do want chalice are usually mana hungry champs throughout the entire game and would love to have an early Grail. Veigar, Swain, and Anivia all have mana issues throughout the game and would love to get mana back on kills and assists and have increased mana regen.
Not true, it's also strong because she has ridiculous late game potential. If you play kayle and don't get a lot of farm, you either got counterpicked or played poorly. Or your team lost the game before you could get there anyway... She has all the tools to get it - not to mention almost every other top is also useless without farm. She has some hard counters that shut her down, yea, but so does every top. Yea, I was thinking about getting him kinda soon but now I won't.
Kayle has always been if she doesn't have a good match-up that let's her farm she has a poor lategame due to her bad early game. And this isn't just counterpicking (though she is easily counterpicked), if you can interrupt her farm she is like an unfed Tryn.
The combination of being easily counterpicked along with needing a lot of farm (more than most other tops) makes her a situational pick in my opinion.
@GLJ: It seems more like he is talking about the Galio nerf that was accidental pulled through on the skin patch. Also I trust at least 75% of this stuff to be true or mostly true given how accurate the last couple of PBE patch notes have been.
Also the more I think about it the more I think Haunting Guise will be my first major item on LeBlanc from now on since it allows her to roam better along with the MPen.
@GLJ: It seems more like he is talking about the Galio nerf that was accidental pulled through on the skin patch. Also I trust at least 75% of this stuff to be true or mostly true given how accurate the last couple of PBE patch notes have been.
considering that the thread is specifically about the Shen nerf?
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Even if the author is silenced, the performance is stopped, the story will not end.
Whether it's a comedy or a tragedy, if there is cheering, the story will continue on.
Just like the many lives.
For the us who are still in it and still in the journey, send warm blessings.
- We will continue to walk down this path until eternity.
Like, maybe you don't understand how Kayle works, how Yorick works, how top lane works, how the champions (more specifically the junglers) work in relation to the top lane, or maybe even how the game works.
Can't really tell from your brief description, but Yorick should trade evenly with Kayle, at least. If you were actually able to lose hard, then even if there was a harder counterpick it won't help you.
The thing is, Yorick is able to disengage when Kayle comes at you, which will make the lane at least a farmfest. Throw in that you can also harass from time to time.
I died early on because I was being dumb and was unfamiliar with Kayle's damage output, having only played against her once before in recent memory.
Second death was my being dumb and being overextended without a ward up.
I see what you mean about the lane being a farmfest. I see the lane often going as such:
1. Kayle turns on her E to harass you.
2. You disengage, so she has is forced to push when she last hits.
3. You can AA farm minions at tower while the E is on CD, or even zone her a bit while that is down.
That being said, I do not think that Yorick decidedly has the upper hand in this matchup. It seems to be more even than anything.
Well whatever. Just saying, it's more about the general gameplay and knowledge than the champion selection in this case.
I think it has more to do with the champion choice, as I did not know how to interact with Kayle, much less using Yorick. I've used Yorick infrequently :/
General gameplay mistakes are the fallout of my scratching my head wondering how I should deal with the matchup.
If general game knowledge was the root problem, I would not have been able to independently identify them (especially right after I made those mistakes).
Unfamiliarity with champions (both yours and your opponents') leads to a lack of confidence, and you're probably not going to play your A game if you've self doubt.
Regardless of champion you use, you really need to be wary of Kayle's early damage. I think there was another post earlier saying that Kayle is weak early game, and that kind of misunderstanding costs games, even by itself.
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Galio does indeed benefit from stacking more mres, but you should also be trying to get some health after chalice before more mres... and roa is usually the way to go for that, so it knocks out any future mana problems too. Even if you choose to not go the ROA route, there're better things for you to build at that time and quite possibly better sources of MR (eg bveil because it also gives health and/or to prevent ccs that can go on you through your ult). Not true, it's also strong because she has ridiculous late game potential. If you play kayle and don't get a lot of farm, you either got counterpicked or played poorly. Or your team lost the game before you could get there anyway... She has all the tools to get it - not to mention almost every other top is also useless without farm. She has some hard counters that shut her down, yea, but so does every top. Yea, I was thinking about getting him kinda soon but now I won't.
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=23594462#23594462
Whether it's a comedy or a tragedy, if there is cheering, the story will continue on.
Just like the many lives.
For the us who are still in it and still in the journey, send warm blessings.
- We will continue to walk down this path until eternity.
The champs that do want chalice are usually mana hungry champs throughout the entire game and would love to have an early Grail. Veigar, Swain, and Anivia all have mana issues throughout the game and would love to get mana back on kills and assists and have increased mana regen.
Kayle has always been if she doesn't have a good match-up that let's her farm she has a poor lategame due to her bad early game. And this isn't just counterpicking (though she is easily counterpicked), if you can interrupt her farm she is like an unfed Tryn.
The combination of being easily counterpicked along with needing a lot of farm (more than most other tops) makes her a situational pick in my opinion.
@GLJ: It seems more like he is talking about the Galio nerf that was accidental pulled through on the skin patch. Also I trust at least 75% of this stuff to be true or mostly true given how accurate the last couple of PBE patch notes have been.
Also the more I think about it the more I think Haunting Guise will be my first major item on LeBlanc from now on since it allows her to roam better along with the MPen.
*Roaming LeBlanc OP
considering that the thread is specifically about the Shen nerf?
Whether it's a comedy or a tragedy, if there is cheering, the story will continue on.
Just like the many lives.
For the us who are still in it and still in the journey, send warm blessings.
- We will continue to walk down this path until eternity.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WGHeQw49ws
EDIT--Vlad with WoTA+Fiddlesticks with WoTA = Stupid fun times
Elaborate.
Can't really tell from your brief description, but Yorick should trade evenly with Kayle, at least. If you were actually able to lose hard, then even if there was a harder counterpick it won't help you.
Disengage with W + E on approach.
Engage as needed with full combo.
The thing is, Yorick is able to disengage when Kayle comes at you, which will make the lane at least a farmfest. Throw in that you can also harass from time to time.
Can you elaborate how you lost?
Okay.
I died early on because I was being dumb and was unfamiliar with Kayle's damage output, having only played against her once before in recent memory.
Second death was my being dumb and being overextended without a ward up.
I see what you mean about the lane being a farmfest. I see the lane often going as such:
1. Kayle turns on her E to harass you.
2. You disengage, so she has is forced to push when she last hits.
3. You can AA farm minions at tower while the E is on CD, or even zone her a bit while that is down.
That being said, I do not think that Yorick decidedly has the upper hand in this matchup. It seems to be more even than anything.
Top lane will easily snowball.
Kayle snowballs like crazy.
Yorick is easily ganked.
Well there you go.
Inappropriate language removed, Warning issued ~r_0
Your "Harass as needed" post was the helpful post.
I think it has more to do with the champion choice, as I did not know how to interact with Kayle, much less using Yorick. I've used Yorick infrequently :/
General gameplay mistakes are the fallout of my scratching my head wondering how I should deal with the matchup.
If general game knowledge was the root problem, I would not have been able to independently identify them (especially right after I made those mistakes).
Unfamiliarity with champions (both yours and your opponents') leads to a lack of confidence, and you're probably not going to play your A game if you've self doubt.