This is not a debate as to the historicity of Jesus, but rather based on the commonly presented narrative of Joseph and Mary fleeing Herod,
would they count as refugees?
From Wiki:
A refugee, according to the Geneva Convention on Refugees is a person who is outside their country of citizenship because they have well-founded grounds for fear of persecution because of their race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion, and is unable to obtain sanctuary from their home country or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail themselves of the protection of that country;[1][2] or in the case of not having a nationality and being outside their country of former habitual residence as a result of such event, is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to return to their country of former habitual residence.
To me "refugee" connotes a mass flight. I feel like individual political asylum seekers are something else. Would we call North Korean defectors "refugees"? Seems an odd usage.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Vive, vale. Siquid novisti rectius istis,
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
This is not a debate as to the historicity of Jesus, but rather based on the commonly presented narrative of Joseph and Mary fleeing Herod,
would they count as refugees?
Yes.
However, since the narrative was probably completely made up, I'm not sure why we would care about it.
If we're talking about what the proper Christian response to the Syrian asylum seekers is, then it's unambiguous: yes, Christians are obligated to grant them shelter.
To me "refugee" connotes a mass flight. I feel like individual political asylum seekers are something else. Would we call North Korean defectors "refugees"? Seems an odd usage.
Perhaps, but the criteria described above don't specify that. *Shrug*
This is not a debate as to the historicity of Jesus, but rather based on the commonly presented narrative of Joseph and Mary fleeing Herod,
would they count as refugees?
Yes.
However, since the narrative was probably completely made up, I'm not sure why we would care about it.
If we're talking about what the proper Christian response to the Syrian asylum seekers is, then it's unambiguous: yes, Christians are obligated to grant them shelter.
To me "refugee" connotes a mass flight. I feel like individual political asylum seekers are something else. Would we call North Korean defectors "refugees"? Seems an odd usage.
Perhaps, but the criteria described above don't specify that. *Shrug*
I think this is one of those cases where the actual truth of the narrative is not important.
What's more important is that for many people, the narrative is their literal gospel. They believe it utterly and completely. It's because of that, that if Jesus seems like a refugee, then a message about accepting or denying refugees came become an important persuasive or ideological tool to a wide audience.
If those that believe in the narrative end up saying: oh well...we don't know if that narrative is true! it's just made up!
If you can get Christians and Catholics around the world to say that, then I would argue that too is a significant, although for a different reason.
It's because of that, that if Jesus seems like a refugee
Well, it's not an issue of seems. He is one in the narrative.
then a message about accepting or denying refugees came become an important persuasive or ideological tool to a wide audience.
Which is well, but if your intention within this thread is to say that Christians should, according to the Gospels, be welcoming of refugees, then you don't need to appeal to the Jesus backstory of one Gospel, you can appeal to the moral instructions of any of them. "Love your neighbor as yourself" is pretty explicit, but in case it wasn't, Jesus in Luke spells it out for you:
Quote from The Gospel of Luke 10:25-37, Oremus Bible Browser »
Just then a lawyer stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he said, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” He said to him, “What is written in the law? What do you read there?” He answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.” And he said to him, “You have given the right answer; do this, and you will live.” But wanting to justify himself, he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?” Jesus replied, “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell into the hands of robbers, who stripped him, beat him, and went away, leaving him half dead. Now by chance a priest was going down that road; and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. So likewise a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a Samaritan while traveling came near him; and when he saw him, he was moved with pity. He went to him and bandaged his wounds, having poured oil and wine on them. Then he put him on his own animal, brought him to an inn, and took care of him. The next day he took out two denarii, gave them to the innkeeper, and said, ‘Take care of him; and when I come back, I will repay you whatever more you spend.’ Which of these three, do you think, was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of the robbers?” He said, “The one who showed him mercy.” Jesus said to him, “Go and do likewise.”
Does Roman Egypt really count as a different country from Roman Judea? I'm not sure I would count someone who flees from one part of a country/empire to another as a refugee.
Since the assorted provinces were largely autonomous I would say yes, it isn't exactly as though they could just cross the boarder between states like Texas and Okalamhoma.
Even if they didn't meet your exact definition of refugee they would certainly fall into the pot of internally displaced citizen so should still be welcomed and given help to get their lives started up again in the same way the Katrina survivors were helped.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and start slitting throats.
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
To me "refugee" connotes a mass flight. I feel like individual political asylum seekers are something else. Would we call North Korean defectors "refugees"? Seems an odd usage.
"Asylum seeker" and "refugee" should be interchangable terms.
The various branches of Christianity would give asylum to murderers, adulterers or people persecuted for *any reason*. (Obviously it didn't always work out, but that was the theory).
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
would they count as refugees?
From Wiki:
A refugee, according to the Geneva Convention on Refugees is a person who is outside their country of citizenship because they have well-founded grounds for fear of persecution because of their race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion, and is unable to obtain sanctuary from their home country or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail themselves of the protection of that country;[1][2] or in the case of not having a nationality and being outside their country of former habitual residence as a result of such event, is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to return to their country of former habitual residence.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
However, since the narrative was probably completely made up, I'm not sure why we would care about it.
If we're talking about what the proper Christian response to the Syrian asylum seekers is, then it's unambiguous: yes, Christians are obligated to grant them shelter.
Perhaps, but the criteria described above don't specify that. *Shrug*
I think this is one of those cases where the actual truth of the narrative is not important.
What's more important is that for many people, the narrative is their literal gospel. They believe it utterly and completely. It's because of that, that if Jesus seems like a refugee, then a message about accepting or denying refugees came become an important persuasive or ideological tool to a wide audience.
If those that believe in the narrative end up saying: oh well...we don't know if that narrative is true! it's just made up!
If you can get Christians and Catholics around the world to say that, then I would argue that too is a significant, although for a different reason.
Which is well, but if your intention within this thread is to say that Christians should, according to the Gospels, be welcoming of refugees, then you don't need to appeal to the Jesus backstory of one Gospel, you can appeal to the moral instructions of any of them. "Love your neighbor as yourself" is pretty explicit, but in case it wasn't, Jesus in Luke spells it out for you:
Even if they didn't meet your exact definition of refugee they would certainly fall into the pot of internally displaced citizen so should still be welcomed and given help to get their lives started up again in the same way the Katrina survivors were helped.
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
The Crafters' Rules Guru
"Asylum seeker" and "refugee" should be interchangable terms.
And it's beyond comical to suggest that not granting asylum is a valid option to a good christian; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_asylum
The various branches of Christianity would give asylum to murderers, adulterers or people persecuted for *any reason*. (Obviously it didn't always work out, but that was the theory).