Just curious what people prayed for? Just if you're curious i'm agnostic and I don't pray and I don't want to get into the reasons for this in this thread I just was hoping to get a general sort of survey of what yall that do pray actually pray for. I assume generally when people pray they only ask for things that they consider very important and not petty little things like a really great parking spot the next time they hit up the mall or for ill to befall someones "enemies" like for someones boss slam his finger in his car door really hard. Also people, if you don't pray and don't have anything to add to the thread aside from "preyingz are the dumbzs!!!!11 LOL" please save it for the richarddawkins.com forums.
Background: I'm an agnostic/atheist. I don't pray anymore but I used to when I was somewhat religious. I do engage in meditation and similar activities. I know and have known many strongly religious people who pray regularly.
I think your post expresses a really simplistic view of prayer. Basically a grown-up version of sitting on Santa's lap and telling him what you want for Christmas. I can see why you'd imagine it like that if it wasn't something you ever gave a lot of thought to. But in my experience very few religious people treat prayer as primarily a cosmic wish list. I think of prayer as having a number of different facets with different purposes; some of these are "spiritual" and others address more real-world emotional needs that people have.
Here are some examples of different aspects of prayer based on my own experiences and my interactions with more religious friends. This is mostly Christian-focused and I'm sure I'll miss many things.
1. Cosmic Wishlist - Obviously this is the one the thread is directed toward. The Bible doesn't contain many passages telling people not to ask for things, so there's no reason you wouldn't want to pray for a good parking space, and I think some people do.
The Bible does say to love your enemies and pray for them, so asking for bad things to happen to your boss would generally be seen as a no-no among Christians. I remember talking with some of my more intensely evangelical friends about this after 9/11. None of them were praying for a lightning bolt to hit Osama Bin Laden. They were praying things like "Please change Bin Laden's heart so he realizes what he did was wrong and that he needs Jesus's forgiveness. Please forgive him and use him as a tool to start righting the wrongs he committed." From a non-theistic standpoint, I think this kind of practice is emotionally beneficial as well. It makes it hard to hold grudges or harbor irrational hatred for someone when you go through the mental exercise of wishing for their well-being and growth as a person.
Another non-theistic benefit of asking for things is that it might actually help in certain circumstances. The placebo effect is very powerful and very well-documented. If you pray "God, please cure my cancer" and you really believe he's going to do it, you're conferring some amount of placebo effect benefit on yourself. Likewise, "God help me ace this job interview" might confer some extra confidence. Obviously this doesn't work for everything; the placebo effect doesn't help with finding good parking spaces.
2. Ask for Guidance - "Should I switch careers?" "Should I marry her?" That kind of thing. People want God to inspire them or "speak to them" and tell them which choice is the right one. Again, this has benefits from a non-religious viewpoint too, since it causes the praying person to think deeply about the pros and cons of the question. It might also make that person more likely to focus on aspects of the decision that "God would care about," i.e. family, community, morality, etc. I think often people who ask for this kind of guidance do receive it, in a sense, it's just that it comes from their own careful meditation on the issue and not from God.
3. Confession & Forgiveness - Different religious teachings have different ideas about the importance of this and when/how it should be done, but there's a widespread idea that prayer is a place where you can reflect on the bad things you've done, say you're sorry, and make an effort to change these things. Again, from a secular viewpoint, this kind of self-examination is beneficial and it helps people take stock of their life and make positive changes. The feeling of receiving forgiveness or having the guilt lifted off your shoulders (even if entirely imagined) might also be productive. Difficulty forgiving oneself is a common feature of people struggling with addiction and certain mental illness, and achieving that sense of forgiveness can be productive in helping some people break out of self-destructive behavior patterns.
4. "Let It Be" - It's hard to describe this aspect clearly. Maybe a famous Christian hymn writer put it best as "cast[ing] my cares upon [God]." Or one can see it embodied in the line from the Lord's Prayer: "Thy will be done." It's fostering a recognition that most things in the world are outside one's control (and therefore in God's control, if you're religious). This is surely a helpful attitude for dispelling feelings of anxiety and depression - don't worry about things, they're in God's hands. And again, this kind of attitude is something embraced as positive by many secular schools of thought. Great examples of this come from stoic philosophy, which holds that events necessarily follow the intrinsic order or logic of nature and are often outside individual human control. One of my favorite quotes of all time is from the stoic philosopher Epictetus: "Do not seek to have events happen as you want them to, but instead want them to happen as they do happen, and your life will go well." I occasionally recite Epictetus's aphorism to myself when I face moments of stress or frustration. This is essentially a secular prayer, and it carries a message similar to the religious version "Thy will be done, Lord."
5. Building Altruism - "Please help those less fortunate than me" is a common theme in prayer. I've heard some non-religious people say this kind of sentiment gives religious people an excuse to not help the needy. "I already prayed for them, I did my part, no need to get my hands dirty at the soup kitchen." But I think this is not typical. The kinds of people who think prayer "gets them out" of physically helping others are the kinds of people who wouldn't be helping others anyway. I think it's more common that praying for the less fortunate is a reminder that less fortunate people actually do exist and actually do need help. And of course Jesus, Buddha, and others were pretty clear that you're supposed to actually do things to help people, not just pay lip service. Paying lip service on a daily basis, however, serves as a powerful reminder to take action.
6. Achieving a Certain Mental or Emotional State - This is a more common goal in Eastern religious traditions. Meditation or prayer to achieve states of enlightenment, oneness, zen, etc. But there is a thread of this in Christianity too, often talked about as "experiencing God's peace" or "making the world silent so you can hear God speak." The point is that people experience a real benefit from sitting in a quiet, peaceful environment and not doing anything. Maybe you think it's God, maybe you think it's a reduction in stress-induced cortisol and adrenaline levels. Either way it's a good thing.
7. Revering Ancestors and Lost Loved Ones - This is another one that varies greatly by religion. For example, it's common in some Catholic sub-traditions to pray to dead relatives and ask them to basically put in the good word for you with God. Hey Grandma, you're already up in heaven, go have a chat with God and see if he'll help your grandson out. For other versions of Christianity it might be more like: "Hey God, I really miss Grandma, please take good care of her and tell her I love her." Either way, prayer serves as a mechanism to keep the memory of lost loved ones alive, and the idea that you can still reach that person in some direct or indirect way provides a measure of comfort from grief.
8. "Thy Kingdom Come" - This is a more obscure one that I'm including just because I think it's interesting. Among the super-religious people I have known (specifically, extreme evangelical protestants) it's a common thing to pray for the end of the world. Evangelical protestant Christians often believe that Jesus is going to come back to earth it a literal way, take all the Christians straight to heaven, and set in motion a series of events that culminates in the end of the earth as we know it and the beginning of a kingdom directly ruled by God. Praying for this to happen isn't entirely limited to fanatics either. That quote ("thy kingdom come") is straight out of the Lord's prayer. I just mention this because someone who doesn't pray or who prays from a non-western worldview would probably not think about this as an aspect of prayer. But there are quite a few people out there who pray every day (or more), and every day ask God to hasten the end of the world.
tl;dr Prayer isn't just a wishlist, and it probably benefits people in various ways even if god doesn't exist.
Once you acknowledge that you are a being of emotion and not one driven by pure unfeeling logic and that others are driven by such emotions as well,
the purpose and utility of religion and its elements, including prayer, begin to make sense.
As far as people going through the mental exercise of wishing good for their enemies I agree, I think that is a good thing too whether or not God exists or not. I also agree that it is a good thing for people to understand that their are things outside of their control, God or no God.
"I think your post expresses a really simplistic view of prayer. Basically a grown-up version of sitting on Santa's lap and telling him what you want for Christmas. I can see why you'd imagine it like that if it wasn't something you ever gave a lot of thought to."
I think you need to reread my post, I explicitly said I don't believe many people treat it as a cosmic wishlist. But then you go on to say that some people probably do.
"The Bible doesn't contain many passages telling people not to ask for things, so there's no reason you wouldn't want to pray for a good parking space, and I think some people do. "
This is the kind of prayer that I think is genuinely not a good thing, it keeps people thinking about their little whims and desires, and not thinking about the larger world around them. The epitome of this mindset is when a sports team prays to god to let them win the game they are about to play. I find it hard to believe that if there is a God, that he would listen to some kids praying to him to let them beat the kids in the next neighborhood over but he wouldn't listen to the prayers of oppressed starving North Koreans. Also, is it not contradictory that a person would pray for something material, then pray for peace about the way things will end up? like "please god, may I get a nice Christmas bonus this year, or atleast not feel bad about not getting a decent bonus this year" That sounds like a pretty ridiculous prayer to me.
@TomCat26
"Once you acknowledge that you are a being of emotion and not one driven by pure unfeeling logic, once you acknowledge that other people are driven by such emotions as well, then the purpose and utility of religion and its elements, including prayer, begin to make sense."
I already acknowledge that as a human I have an emotional side as well as a logical side as do other people, and in fact I believe that logic and emotion complement each other, not that they are at "war" with each other. And it's through both logic and emotion that I have formed the opinion that if there is a God, praying to him would be silly, seeing as he already would know my deepest hopes and desires regarding myself and my fellow man, so what would I need to restate them to him periodically for?
@Bitterroot
"I think your post expresses a really simplistic view of prayer. Basically a grown-up version of sitting on Santa's lap and telling him what you want for Christmas. I can see why you'd imagine it like that if it wasn't something you ever gave a lot of thought to."
I think you need to reread my post, I explicitly said I don't believe many people treat it as a cosmic wishlist. But then you go on to say that some people probably do.
I was probably a little unclear with my terminology. I'm using the term "cosmic wish list" to mean asking God for favors, big or small. The way I'm using "cosmic wish list" I don't just mean little things like parking spaces, I mean anything. "God please cure my cancer" is also a "cosmic wish list" request.
And my point is that prayer is much bigger than "God please do me favor X." A lot of prayer is about listening (to yourself or to God, depending on what you believe) and prayer also has aspects relating to self-improvement, mental health and stress management, social cohesiveness, etc.
I'm saying, look, someone could pray every day and never ask God for anything. Maybe you already understood that point when you posted, or maybe not, but I wanted to be sure to preface the discussion by explaining this for anyone who reads and comments.
"The Bible doesn't contain many passages telling people not to ask for things, so there's no reason you wouldn't want to pray for a good parking space, and I think some people do. "
This is the kind of prayer that I think is genuinely not a good thing, it keeps people thinking about their little whims and desires, and not thinking about the larger world around them. The epitome of this mindset is when a sports team prays to god to let them win the game they are about to play. I find it hard to believe that if there is a God, that he would listen to some kids praying to him to let them beat the kids in the next neighborhood over but he wouldn't listen to the prayers of oppressed starving North Koreans. Also, is it not contradictory that a person would pray for something material, then pray for peace about the way things will end up? like "please god, may I get a nice Christmas bonus this year, or atleast not feel bad about not getting a decent bonus this year" That sounds like a pretty ridiculous prayer to me.
Yeah, most people have a bunch of petty wants and desires, and that's going to be reflected in their prayers if they are religious. Most people also harbor a ton of irrational and not-well-thought-out beliefs like homeopathy, anti-vaccine, the belief that gum stays in your stomach for seven years if you swallow it. Hell, 26% of Americans think the sun orbits the earth. Compared to that, someone who thinks God will help their team win the Superbowl sounds like freaking Einstein.
Which brings me to another of my favorite quotes: “Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.” - George Carlin
What you're critiquing here is peoples' stupidity and irrationality in the things they choose to pray for. You're not really saying anything about the practice of prayer itself.
As far as people going through the mental exercise of wishing good for their enemies I agree, I think that is a good thing too whether or not God exists or not. I also agree that it is a good thing for people to understand that their are things outside of their control, God or no God.
"I think your post expresses a really simplistic view of prayer. Basically a grown-up version of sitting on Santa's lap and telling him what you want for Christmas. I can see why you'd imagine it like that if it wasn't something you ever gave a lot of thought to."
I think you need to reread my post, I explicitly said I don't believe many people treat it as a cosmic wishlist. But then you go on to say that some people probably do.
"The Bible doesn't contain many passages telling people not to ask for things, so there's no reason you wouldn't want to pray for a good parking space, and I think some people do. "
This is the kind of prayer that I think is genuinely not a good thing, it keeps people thinking about their little whims and desires, and not thinking about the larger world around them. The epitome of this mindset is when a sports team prays to god to let them win the game they are about to play. I find it hard to believe that if there is a God, that he would listen to some kids praying to him to let them beat the kids in the next neighborhood over but he wouldn't listen to the prayers of oppressed starving North Koreans. Also, is it not contradictory that a person would pray for something material, then pray for peace about the way things will end up? like "please god, may I get a nice Christmas bonus this year, or atleast not feel bad about not getting a decent bonus this year" That sounds like a pretty ridiculous prayer to me.
@TomCat26
"Once you acknowledge that you are a being of emotion and not one driven by pure unfeeling logic, once you acknowledge that other people are driven by such emotions as well, then the purpose and utility of religion and its elements, including prayer, begin to make sense."
I already acknowledge that as a human I have an emotional side as well as a logical side as do other people, and in fact I believe that logic and emotion complement each other, not that they are at "war" with each other. And it's through both logic and emotion that I have formed the opinion that if there is a God, praying to him would be silly, seeing as he already would know my deepest hopes and desires regarding myself and my fellow man, so what would I need to restate them to him periodically for?
simple. Suppose that God does know what you want. Do you know what you want? Do you take the time to think and distill your thoughts into words sufficiently focused that you can communicate them to another? Would u do it in the absence of prayer as a ritual?
What about meditation? Do you meditate? Those who pray probably derive some similar benefits to those who meditate. But unless you have that as a practice in your life, you're probably not going to get around to it.
what about praying for others? Let's remove God out of the equation for you atheists out there. Praying for others then, in the absence of God, requires at a minimum thought, reflection, and consideration of the needs of another person. A person who regularly prays for others is therefore regularly considering the needs of others--whether or not God exists.
There are arguably positive benefits to these actions.
Actively harboring thoughts of another person's needs and welfare could translate into more considerate actions and behavior. Institutionally, prayer get's ordinary people to do this quite well.
People meet regularly on Sundays, and during that time many churches spend at least some time praying for the welfare of others.
I can't think of any non-religious institution that is as effective in rallying so many people to perform such actions--Christianity variants alone numbering in excess of 2 billion.
So I actually think one of the things Roboplodicus is trying to ask is "Why should the existence of God make prayer a good idea?" If you strip away the secular benefits of prayer, what's the advantage of praying to a real God instead of an imaginary one? Correct me if I'm wrong, Roboplodicus.
And I think I have to agree that there aren't any special benefits associated with praying to a real God. He already knows what you desire and what would be best for you. Interestingly, some Christian scholars have also keyed in on this idea and argued that the benefits of prayer essentially arise from the act of humbling oneself before God and going through the mental steps of thinking about the less fortunate, etc. In other words, they would say God commands us to pray because prayer itself is good, not because it's magical.
If you think about it, though, that's a pretty ringing endorsement of prayer. It's just as effective even if God isn't real.
The Catechism of the Episcopal Church defines prayer as "responding to God, by thought and deeds, with or without words."
It describes seven different types of prayer:
Adoration, defined as "the lifting up of the heart and mind to God, asking nothing but to enjoy God's presence."
Praise, defined as the act of praising God "not to obtain anything, but because God's Being draws praise from us."
Thanksgiving, "offered to God for all of the blessings of this life, for our redemption, and for whatever draws us closer to God."
Penitence, defined as confessing of sins and making "restitution where possible, with the intention to amend our lives."
Oblation, "an offering of ourselves, our lives and labors, in union with Christ, for the purposes of God"
And Intercession and Petition, in which intercession is defined as bringing "before God the needs of others," and petition defined as presenting "our own needs, that God's will may be done."
I really like this viewpoint on prayer. I've considered life as a dialogue between us and God, and in this case, prayer is an extension of that.
It also, correctly, points out that prayer need not be for asking anything. Furthermore, in this definition of petition, it recognizes that God's will does not necessarily accord up with our own and we may not get what we want.
To me that's not the point. The point is the relationship with God.
Quote from roboplodicus »
I assume generally when people pray they only ask for things that they consider very important and not petty little things like a really great parking spot the next time they hit up the mall
What's wrong with praying for a really great parking spot the next time you hit up the mall?
Also, is it not contradictory that a person would pray for something material, then pray for peace about the way things will end up? like "please god, may I get a nice Christmas bonus this year, or atleast not feel bad about not getting a decent bonus this year" That sounds like a pretty ridiculous prayer to me.
Bitterroot, I would just like to point out that that survey only hit 2200 people.
On the subject, my background is that I am a Mormon who was raised by an Ex-Atheist and an Ex-Catholic. (crazy, I know.)
When I'm praying, it's not just to ask for things, or to give thanks, it's sort of like a verbal journal entry. I talk about my wants, my fears, how my day went, what that strange spot on the desk at school reminds me of, things like that. God doesn't just want us to ask him for things, he's our Spiritual Father, he wants us to talk with him, not just at him.
Bitterroot, I would just like to point out that that survey only hit 2200 people.
If anything that proves my point about how people can be stupid and irrational. A trained statistician was stupid enough to use a small sample size, a journalist employed at NPR was stupid enough to publish a story about it, and I was stupid enough to link to it.
Basically, people are flawed so they're going to pray in flawed and irrational ways. Their behavior doesn't undermine the validity of prayer itself. That's what I was driving at.
If anything that proves my point about how people can be stupid and irrational. A trained statistician was stupid enough to use a small sample size, a journalist employed at NPR was stupid enough to publish a story about it, and I was stupid enough to link to it.
FYI, at p=0.05, surveying a random sample of 2200 people out of the US population of 320 million, is enough to obtain a 2% confidence interval on a yes/no question on which 25% of those surveyed answered one way or the other. In other words, the sample size given here was statistically adequate (95% certainty) to conclude that between 23 and 27% of the populace would answer yes to the Sun orbiting the Earth, assuming all the usual assumptions that Pearson-Fisher statistical methodology assumes.
Whatever the problems with this survey may be, sample size isn't one of them. You may determine whether or not the sample size of a survey is too small by using this handy-dandy sample size calculator. This is the first thing I do whenever someone says a sample size is too small, and I find that people who say that are usually wrong.
I'm not a praying person, but in my experience one major reason prayer is invoked is when a friend or loved one is injured or otherwise in serious trouble.
I recall one day when my daughter was in the hospital, she was 2yrs old at the time, and a christian friend of mine told me that she prayed for her. I'm not religious but I appreciated the sentiment, until the friend elaborated - she did not pray that my daughter would get better, she prayed for her to become a christian.
I've heard of people pray for that all the time - that others will adopt their own belief system. I believe it stems from insecurity - it's easier to feel better about one's own religious choices if others join you. I would guess that prayers for others to join one's own belief system outweighs the number of prayers for the welfare of others quite heavily.
what about praying for others? Let's remove God out of the equation for you atheists out there. Praying for others then, in the absence of God, requires at a minimum thought, reflection, and consideration of the needs of another person. A person who regularly prays for others is therefore regularly considering the needs of others--whether or not God exists.
There are arguably positive benefits to these actions.
Actively harboring thoughts of another person's needs and welfare could translate into more considerate actions and behavior. Institutionally, prayer get's ordinary people to do this quite well.
It could, but it doesn't. What prayer actually does is convince people that if you mumble a few words to the deity of your choice, that you are helping. So if someone is in need, many good religious people that ordinarily might have actively helped the person in need can stay at home and pray for them instead, which does nothing.
Prayer encourages people against helping others by providing an easy alternative that doesn't work but it makes them think that they're helping.
rock - I disagree. I think Tom is correct in that prayer can (key being "can", not "will") have practical positive outcomes in that it helps some by serving as a form of meditation and focusing. It can help them keep important things in mind, and in at least one case I know help them stay focused on raising money to help others (i.e. the habit of praying and thinking about those things daily is part of the process leading that person towards more charitable actions).
What about meditation? Do you meditate? Those who pray probably derive some similar benefits to those who meditate. But unless you have that as a practice in your life, you're probably not going to get around to it.
Then why not meditate instead of pray?
Why pray to God? Why not Buddha? Or Vishnu? Or the Flying Spaghetti Monster? Same benefit, right? Either way you're praying.
No, either God exists or he isn't. If he doesn't, there is no benefit to praying to God. Trying to give an atheist reasons to think prayer is valuable is doing it wrong.
I recall one day when my daughter was in the hospital, she was 2yrs old at the time, and a christian friend of mine told me that she prayed for her. I'm not religious but I appreciated the sentiment, until the friend elaborated - she did not pray that my daughter would get better, she prayed for her to become a christian.
Why pray to God? Why not Buddha? Or Vishnu? Or the Flying Spaghetti Monster? Same benefit, right? Either way you're praying.
No, either God exists or he isn't. If he doesn't, there is no benefit to praying to God. Trying to give an atheist reasons to think prayer is valuable is doing it wrong.
Demonstrate that there's no benefit to praying to a god that doesn't exist.
It is entirely possible that people derive benefits from prayer. Kids talk to imaginary friends because it makes them feel better. If sitting down to pray, even if there's nothing on the other end listening, results in a positive experience, then there is a benefit to prayer.
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"[Screw] you and the green you ramped in on." - My EDH battle cry. If I had one. Which I don't.
What about meditation? Do you meditate? Those who pray probably derive some similar benefits to those who meditate. But unless you have that as a practice in your life, you're probably not going to get around to it.
Then why not meditate instead of pray?
Why pray to God? Why not Buddha? Or Vishnu? Or the Flying Spaghetti Monster? Same benefit, right? Either way you're praying.
No, either God exists or he isn't. If he doesn't, there is no benefit to praying to God. Trying to give an atheist reasons to think prayer is valuable is doing it wrong.
I recall one day when my daughter was in the hospital, she was 2yrs old at the time, and a christian friend of mine told me that she prayed for her. I'm not religious but I appreciated the sentiment, until the friend elaborated - she did not pray that my daughter would get better, she prayed for her to become a christian.
Needless to say, that person's a *****.
you know what. It is so easy to refute you on this one.
Whats the benefit of praying to a God that doesn't exist? It makes some people feel better.
Demonstrate that there's no benefit to praying to a god that doesn't exist.
It is entirely possible that people derive benefits from prayer. Kids talk to imaginary friends because it makes them feel better. If sitting down to pray, even if there's nothing on the other end listening, results in a positive experience, then there is a benefit to prayer.
You are correct, I have overstepped, and will need to revise what I wrote.
Whats the benefit of praying to a God that doesn't exist? It makes some people feel better.
So does Scientology. So does calling a psychic on the telephone.
So does smacking a girl around. Obviously, "because it makes some people feel better" isn't enough to say an action is good.
Prayer is a harmless action, though, as there is no measurable suffering caused to others by someone praying. Regardless of the existence of god, if the praying person is left in a better mental state, then it's clearly a good thing that the prayer happens.
I know several people who spend time in prayer and I know it allows them to collect their thoughts, relieve frustration, calm down, be introspective and realize mistakes they've made. For these people, prayer is most certainly helpful, even if god isn't there listening to or acting on their prayers.
Prayer doesn't do anything for me because I see it as talking to an imaginary friend. If I want the same results as above, I'll meditate.
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"[Screw] you and the green you ramped in on." - My EDH battle cry. If I had one. Which I don't.
Demonstrate that there's no benefit to praying to a god that doesn't exist.
It is entirely possible that people derive benefits from prayer. Kids talk to imaginary friends because it makes them feel better. If sitting down to pray, even if there's nothing on the other end listening, results in a positive experience, then there is a benefit to prayer.
You are correct, I have overstepped, and will need to revise what I wrote.
Whats the benefit of praying to a God that doesn't exist? It makes some people feel better.
So does Scientology. So does calling a psychic on the telephone.
I don't see anything here that refutes what I'm saying. The OP posed a question, and it has been answered.
And if it makes some people feel better than certainly there is some good to that. Whether the good outweighs the bad is another issue. But I did not pick that argument.
What I do know is that time and time again arguments in this forum concerning religion completely miss the point or deny that fact that most people simply are emotional creatures.
I was borderline aspergers before and it continues to remain somewhat difficult for me to comprehend the extent of why people are not comforted by pure logic.
I'm not sure if you are highroller. But you seem like it. So let me tell you what I have learned. Logic does not make most people feel better.
I hope you understand that. And I hope you understand that the vast majority of people are wired not to feel better from logical arguments. In their moment of suffering or trial, prayer helps them feel better. It is completely irrelevant whether or not God exists.
I don't understand why you are so biased against prayer. It's like the illogicality of it truly bothers you. I understand that. But it is a biased view. A more neutral viewpoint would at least view it as an effective mechanism of assuaging the masses in their moments of personal suffering. If God doesn't exist, then praying to thin air is a cheapest most economically efficient means of making some people feel better.
Tell me what is the economic cost in lost productivity of those members of society unable to function because of their grief? There people are unable to produce goods and services to the best of their ability. It is clear to me that if uttering words to thin air is sufficient to offset some of those costs, it is a valuable tool.
The only reason I have come to understand this is because I am now in a position where I must rally people, people who are primarily emotional.
It has become a salient question to my career now to be able to rally persons who are not comforted by logic. I assure you to me, prayer is a Godsend (pun intended).
For I now have at my disposal a means to direct their emotions towards more productive endeavors, whereas before I only had the woefully inadequate tool that was logic.
I would guess that prayers for others to join one's own belief system outweighs the number of prayers for the welfare of others quite heavily.
Why do you think this is true? Maybe the type of person who would loudly tell you "I prayed for your child" is the same type of person with the level of insecurity necessary to pray for your child's religious conversion rather than her recovery.
I'd bet there were other religious people who knew about your daughter's situation and quietly prayed for her to get better without rubbing it in your face. The loud ones get the attention, but that doesn't mean they represent a majority.
What prayer actually does is convince people that if you mumble a few words to the deity of your choice, that you are helping. So if someone is in need, many good religious people that ordinarily might have actively helped the person in need can stay at home and pray for them instead, which does nothing.
Prayer encourages people against helping others by providing an easy alternative that doesn't work but it makes them think that they're helping.
Again, why do you think this is true? How do you respond to my earlier comments about this issue?
5. Building Altruism - "Please help those less fortunate than me" is a common theme in prayer. I've heard some non-religious people say this kind of sentiment gives religious people an excuse to not help the needy. "I already prayed for them, I did my part, no need to get my hands dirty at the soup kitchen." But I think this is not typical. The kinds of people who think prayer "gets them out" of physically helping others are the kinds of people who wouldn't be helping others anyway. I think it's more common that praying for the less fortunate is a reminder that less fortunate people actually do exist and actually do need help. And of course Jesus, Buddha, and others were pretty clear that you're supposed to actually do things to help people, not just pay lip service. Paying lip service on a daily basis, however, serves as a powerful reminder to take action.
Whats the benefit of praying to a God that doesn't exist? It makes some people feel better.
So does Scientology. So does calling a psychic on the telephone.
Scientology and telephone psychics have serious drawbacks that harm people (e.g. by taking their money). If these drawbacks didn't exist, these institutions wouldn't be problematic. Certainly the sense of hope these things provide and the fact that they make some people feel better isn't what makes them bad. It's all the other bad stuff that comes along with that.
I would guess that prayers for others to join one's own belief system outweighs the number of prayers for the welfare of others quite heavily.
- Why do you think this is true?
Thanks for your response. I have two answers:
1) Because of personal experience.
2) Because it makes sense. People are selfish. People are more likely to pray for what they want, not what others want. And if you're one of those people who think that its bad to pray for your own wants, it's easy to spin that as a selfless prayer by claiming that it is what is best for the other person, when really it is only serving your own interests.
Why do you think this is true? Maybe the type of person who would loudly tell you "I prayed for your child" is the same type of person with the level of insecurity necessary to pray for your child's religious conversion rather than her recovery.
From her perspective, she may have thought that she prioritized correctly if she saw this life as merely a stepping stone to a much more important afterlife - one's health on earth is not as important as eternal paradise. I'm not justifying what she said and did, I'm just considering her point of view.
Again, why do you think this is true? How do you respond to my earlier comments about this issue?
5. Building Altruism - "Please help those less fortunate than me" is a common theme in prayer. I've heard some non-religious people say this kind of sentiment gives religious people an excuse to not help the needy. "I already prayed for them, I did my part, no need to get my hands dirty at the soup kitchen." But I think this is not typical. The kinds of people who think prayer "gets them out" of physically helping others are the kinds of people who wouldn't be helping others anyway.
My reasoning is self evident. If someone truly wants to help others, they will get off their butt and do it, not talk or pray about it. And when they do, they will get the sense of satisfaction that comes from helping others. But when people pray, they accomplish nothing for others but they still get some sense of satisfaction as though they helped them. Laziness is rewarded. If you get the same sense of satisfaction from helping others as you do for praying, religious people will often go with the easier option.
And if there are passages that tell them that prayer should not be a substitute for action - who cares? There's passages that promote slavery too - ignoring inconvenient passages is standard behavior.
I don't see anything here that refutes what I'm saying. The OP posed a question, and it has been answered.
The distinguishing characteristics of Scientology and telephone psychics are that they are complete bull*****, right? Complete bull***** that exploits those who are conned into believing it.
The metric you proposed is that some people feel better when praying, therefore prayer has a benefit. Well some people feel better as a result of Scientology. Some people feel better as a result of people claiming to be psychics.
So would you care to argue that Scientology is beneficial for people, or would you agree with me when I say that I think we need to advance a new metric?
And if it makes some people feel better than certainly there is some good to that.
Apparently a heroin high feels great.
Again, really feel that a new metric needs to be added.
Whether the good outweighs the bad is another issue. But I did not pick that argument.
No, you did not, but I feel it's a natural concern that should be addressed.
What I do know is that time and time again arguments in this forum concerning religion completely miss the point or deny that fact that most people simply are emotional creatures.
I don't know what you mean by "simply are emotional creatures" or its relevance to the discussion. Would you mind elaborate?
I was borderline aspergers before and it continues to remain somewhat difficult for me to comprehend the extent of why people are not comforted by pure logic.
I'm not sure what you mean by that either.
I'm not sure if you are highroller. But you seem like it. So let me tell you what I have learned. Logic does not make most people feel better.
Depends on the situation.
And I hope you understand that the vast majority of people are wired not to feel better from logical arguments. In their moment of suffering or trial, prayer helps them feel better.
Wearing mismatched socks can make some people feel better. That's not the issue. If prayer is on the same level as wearing different color socks, not shaving your beard, carrying a good luck charm, or any other superstition or quirk people have, then prayer has no benefit to a person.
This is the very basis of the placebo effect. People feel better when taking a pill, even if the pill is a sugar pill.
It is completely irrelevant whether or not God exists.
Is it completely irrelevant whether the pill you're eating is medicine or a sugar pill?
I don't understand why you are so biased against prayer. It's like the illogicality of it truly bothers you.
I'm not biased against prayer.
I do not, however, regard praying to a deity that doesn't exist as anything other than nonsensical. It's one thing to be genuinely ignorant as to that deity's nonexistence, but saying "Well, there's still benefit to believing something that's totally false" is, in my opinion, completely the wrong position to argue from.
The only reason I have come to understand this is because I am now in a position where I must rally people, people who are primarily emotional.
It has become a salient question to my career now to be able to rally persons who are not comforted by logic. I assure you to me, prayer is a Godsend (pun intended).
So you don't give a crap whether who they're praying to or what you're saying to rally them is truth or a total lie, you just care about the results they give you?
That is simultaneously selfish, disturbing, cruel, and dehumanizing.
Scientology and telephone psychics have serious drawbacks that harm people (e.g. by taking their money).
But hey, as long as they make people feel better, there must be some benefit, right? (Blue is for sarcasm)
If these drawbacks didn't exist, these institutions wouldn't be problematic.
They would still be problematic. They are built upon lying to people.
Certainly the sense of hope these things provide and the fact that they make some people feel better isn't what makes them bad.
Actually, it is what makes them bad. I'm reminded of a story I read in which a "medium" predicted that a family's child was still alive, only for that child's body to later be found.
It's all the other bad stuff that comes along with that.
The problem with Heroin is not that it feels good. The problem is that it's addictive and harmful in other ways.
If something feels good and has no drawbacks, then it's a net positive.
Wearing mismatched socks can make some people feel better. That's not the issue. If prayer is on the same level as wearing different color socks, not shaving your beard, carrying a good luck charm, or any other superstition or quirk people have, then prayer has no benefit to a person.
This is the very basis of the placebo effect. People feel better when taking a pill, even if the pill is a sugar pill.
The placebo effect is a real effect that has measurable benefits for people. It can actually help people feel better. Who cares if it's "real" or not if it really helps you?
So, what's the metric?
If something makes people feel better and does them no harm, it is a good thing.
If it causes harm, then it's a bad thing if total harm > total benefit. Since feeling good is a small-ish benefit, most forms of harm will outweigh it.
The problem with Heroin is not that it feels good. The problem is that it's addictive and harmful in other ways.
No, that is a false distinction. The reason why heroin causes its characteristic high is the same reason it also has horrific consequences upon the body: the effect of the chemicals that make up heroin upon the human body. That which causes the high also ravages the body. These are not separate.
Likewise, if one is receiving joy from deception, whether it be self-deception or deception from another, then one is being harmed, and is being harmed by the same thing that one receives pleasure.
The placebo effect is a real effect that has measurable benefits for people. It can actually help people feel better. Who cares if it's "real" or not if it really helps you?
Because it is based upon deception. It is lying to a person that he is taking medicine when he is not.
If something makes people feel better and does them no harm, it is a good thing.
Let me ask you this: Even if Scientology demanded no money from its followers, performed no acts of coercion, nor ran its campaign of harrassment, would it not still be harmful?
So, what do you pray for?
I think your post expresses a really simplistic view of prayer. Basically a grown-up version of sitting on Santa's lap and telling him what you want for Christmas. I can see why you'd imagine it like that if it wasn't something you ever gave a lot of thought to. But in my experience very few religious people treat prayer as primarily a cosmic wish list. I think of prayer as having a number of different facets with different purposes; some of these are "spiritual" and others address more real-world emotional needs that people have.
Here are some examples of different aspects of prayer based on my own experiences and my interactions with more religious friends. This is mostly Christian-focused and I'm sure I'll miss many things.
1. Cosmic Wishlist
- Obviously this is the one the thread is directed toward. The Bible doesn't contain many passages telling people not to ask for things, so there's no reason you wouldn't want to pray for a good parking space, and I think some people do.The Bible does say to love your enemies and pray for them, so asking for bad things to happen to your boss would generally be seen as a no-no among Christians. I remember talking with some of my more intensely evangelical friends about this after 9/11. None of them were praying for a lightning bolt to hit Osama Bin Laden. They were praying things like "Please change Bin Laden's heart so he realizes what he did was wrong and that he needs Jesus's forgiveness. Please forgive him and use him as a tool to start righting the wrongs he committed." From a non-theistic standpoint, I think this kind of practice is emotionally beneficial as well. It makes it hard to hold grudges or harbor irrational hatred for someone when you go through the mental exercise of wishing for their well-being and growth as a person.
Another non-theistic benefit of asking for things is that it might actually help in certain circumstances. The placebo effect is very powerful and very well-documented. If you pray "God, please cure my cancer" and you really believe he's going to do it, you're conferring some amount of placebo effect benefit on yourself. Likewise, "God help me ace this job interview" might confer some extra confidence. Obviously this doesn't work for everything; the placebo effect doesn't help with finding good parking spaces.
2. Ask for Guidance - "Should I switch careers?" "Should I marry her?" That kind of thing. People want God to inspire them or "speak to them" and tell them which choice is the right one. Again, this has benefits from a non-religious viewpoint too, since it causes the praying person to think deeply about the pros and cons of the question. It might also make that person more likely to focus on aspects of the decision that "God would care about," i.e. family, community, morality, etc. I think often people who ask for this kind of guidance do receive it, in a sense, it's just that it comes from their own careful meditation on the issue and not from God.
3. Confession & Forgiveness - Different religious teachings have different ideas about the importance of this and when/how it should be done, but there's a widespread idea that prayer is a place where you can reflect on the bad things you've done, say you're sorry, and make an effort to change these things. Again, from a secular viewpoint, this kind of self-examination is beneficial and it helps people take stock of their life and make positive changes. The feeling of receiving forgiveness or having the guilt lifted off your shoulders (even if entirely imagined) might also be productive. Difficulty forgiving oneself is a common feature of people struggling with addiction and certain mental illness, and achieving that sense of forgiveness can be productive in helping some people break out of self-destructive behavior patterns.
4. "Let It Be" - It's hard to describe this aspect clearly. Maybe a famous Christian hymn writer put it best as "cast[ing] my cares upon [God]." Or one can see it embodied in the line from the Lord's Prayer: "Thy will be done." It's fostering a recognition that most things in the world are outside one's control (and therefore in God's control, if you're religious). This is surely a helpful attitude for dispelling feelings of anxiety and depression - don't worry about things, they're in God's hands. And again, this kind of attitude is something embraced as positive by many secular schools of thought. Great examples of this come from stoic philosophy, which holds that events necessarily follow the intrinsic order or logic of nature and are often outside individual human control. One of my favorite quotes of all time is from the stoic philosopher Epictetus: "Do not seek to have events happen as you want them to, but instead want them to happen as they do happen, and your life will go well." I occasionally recite Epictetus's aphorism to myself when I face moments of stress or frustration. This is essentially a secular prayer, and it carries a message similar to the religious version "Thy will be done, Lord."
5. Building Altruism - "Please help those less fortunate than me" is a common theme in prayer. I've heard some non-religious people say this kind of sentiment gives religious people an excuse to not help the needy. "I already prayed for them, I did my part, no need to get my hands dirty at the soup kitchen." But I think this is not typical. The kinds of people who think prayer "gets them out" of physically helping others are the kinds of people who wouldn't be helping others anyway. I think it's more common that praying for the less fortunate is a reminder that less fortunate people actually do exist and actually do need help. And of course Jesus, Buddha, and others were pretty clear that you're supposed to actually do things to help people, not just pay lip service. Paying lip service on a daily basis, however, serves as a powerful reminder to take action.
6. Achieving a Certain Mental or Emotional State - This is a more common goal in Eastern religious traditions. Meditation or prayer to achieve states of enlightenment, oneness, zen, etc. But there is a thread of this in Christianity too, often talked about as "experiencing God's peace" or "making the world silent so you can hear God speak." The point is that people experience a real benefit from sitting in a quiet, peaceful environment and not doing anything. Maybe you think it's God, maybe you think it's a reduction in stress-induced cortisol and adrenaline levels. Either way it's a good thing.
7. Revering Ancestors and Lost Loved Ones - This is another one that varies greatly by religion. For example, it's common in some Catholic sub-traditions to pray to dead relatives and ask them to basically put in the good word for you with God. Hey Grandma, you're already up in heaven, go have a chat with God and see if he'll help your grandson out. For other versions of Christianity it might be more like: "Hey God, I really miss Grandma, please take good care of her and tell her I love her." Either way, prayer serves as a mechanism to keep the memory of lost loved ones alive, and the idea that you can still reach that person in some direct or indirect way provides a measure of comfort from grief.
8. "Thy Kingdom Come" - This is a more obscure one that I'm including just because I think it's interesting. Among the super-religious people I have known (specifically, extreme evangelical protestants) it's a common thing to pray for the end of the world. Evangelical protestant Christians often believe that Jesus is going to come back to earth it a literal way, take all the Christians straight to heaven, and set in motion a series of events that culminates in the end of the earth as we know it and the beginning of a kingdom directly ruled by God. Praying for this to happen isn't entirely limited to fanatics either. That quote ("thy kingdom come") is straight out of the Lord's prayer. I just mention this because someone who doesn't pray or who prays from a non-western worldview would probably not think about this as an aspect of prayer. But there are quite a few people out there who pray every day (or more), and every day ask God to hasten the end of the world.
tl;dr Prayer isn't just a wishlist, and it probably benefits people in various ways even if god doesn't exist.
the purpose and utility of religion and its elements, including prayer, begin to make sense.
As far as people going through the mental exercise of wishing good for their enemies I agree, I think that is a good thing too whether or not God exists or not. I also agree that it is a good thing for people to understand that their are things outside of their control, God or no God.
"I think your post expresses a really simplistic view of prayer. Basically a grown-up version of sitting on Santa's lap and telling him what you want for Christmas. I can see why you'd imagine it like that if it wasn't something you ever gave a lot of thought to."
I think you need to reread my post, I explicitly said I don't believe many people treat it as a cosmic wishlist. But then you go on to say that some people probably do.
"The Bible doesn't contain many passages telling people not to ask for things, so there's no reason you wouldn't want to pray for a good parking space, and I think some people do. "
This is the kind of prayer that I think is genuinely not a good thing, it keeps people thinking about their little whims and desires, and not thinking about the larger world around them. The epitome of this mindset is when a sports team prays to god to let them win the game they are about to play. I find it hard to believe that if there is a God, that he would listen to some kids praying to him to let them beat the kids in the next neighborhood over but he wouldn't listen to the prayers of oppressed starving North Koreans. Also, is it not contradictory that a person would pray for something material, then pray for peace about the way things will end up? like "please god, may I get a nice Christmas bonus this year, or atleast not feel bad about not getting a decent bonus this year" That sounds like a pretty ridiculous prayer to me.
@TomCat26
"Once you acknowledge that you are a being of emotion and not one driven by pure unfeeling logic, once you acknowledge that other people are driven by such emotions as well, then the purpose and utility of religion and its elements, including prayer, begin to make sense."
I already acknowledge that as a human I have an emotional side as well as a logical side as do other people, and in fact I believe that logic and emotion complement each other, not that they are at "war" with each other. And it's through both logic and emotion that I have formed the opinion that if there is a God, praying to him would be silly, seeing as he already would know my deepest hopes and desires regarding myself and my fellow man, so what would I need to restate them to him periodically for?
I was probably a little unclear with my terminology. I'm using the term "cosmic wish list" to mean asking God for favors, big or small. The way I'm using "cosmic wish list" I don't just mean little things like parking spaces, I mean anything. "God please cure my cancer" is also a "cosmic wish list" request.
And my point is that prayer is much bigger than "God please do me favor X." A lot of prayer is about listening (to yourself or to God, depending on what you believe) and prayer also has aspects relating to self-improvement, mental health and stress management, social cohesiveness, etc.
I'm saying, look, someone could pray every day and never ask God for anything. Maybe you already understood that point when you posted, or maybe not, but I wanted to be sure to preface the discussion by explaining this for anyone who reads and comments.
Yeah, most people have a bunch of petty wants and desires, and that's going to be reflected in their prayers if they are religious. Most people also harbor a ton of irrational and not-well-thought-out beliefs like homeopathy, anti-vaccine, the belief that gum stays in your stomach for seven years if you swallow it. Hell, 26% of Americans think the sun orbits the earth. Compared to that, someone who thinks God will help their team win the Superbowl sounds like freaking Einstein.
Which brings me to another of my favorite quotes: “Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.” - George Carlin
What you're critiquing here is peoples' stupidity and irrationality in the things they choose to pray for. You're not really saying anything about the practice of prayer itself.
simple. Suppose that God does know what you want. Do you know what you want? Do you take the time to think and distill your thoughts into words sufficiently focused that you can communicate them to another? Would u do it in the absence of prayer as a ritual?
What about meditation? Do you meditate? Those who pray probably derive some similar benefits to those who meditate. But unless you have that as a practice in your life, you're probably not going to get around to it.
what about praying for others? Let's remove God out of the equation for you atheists out there. Praying for others then, in the absence of God, requires at a minimum thought, reflection, and consideration of the needs of another person. A person who regularly prays for others is therefore regularly considering the needs of others--whether or not God exists.
There are arguably positive benefits to these actions.
Actively harboring thoughts of another person's needs and welfare could translate into more considerate actions and behavior. Institutionally, prayer get's ordinary people to do this quite well.
People meet regularly on Sundays, and during that time many churches spend at least some time praying for the welfare of others.
I can't think of any non-religious institution that is as effective in rallying so many people to perform such actions--Christianity variants alone numbering in excess of 2 billion.
And I think I have to agree that there aren't any special benefits associated with praying to a real God. He already knows what you desire and what would be best for you. Interestingly, some Christian scholars have also keyed in on this idea and argued that the benefits of prayer essentially arise from the act of humbling oneself before God and going through the mental steps of thinking about the less fortunate, etc. In other words, they would say God commands us to pray because prayer itself is good, not because it's magical.
If you think about it, though, that's a pretty ringing endorsement of prayer. It's just as effective even if God isn't real.
What's wrong with praying for a really great parking spot the next time you hit up the mall?
How is that ridiculous or contradictory?
On the subject, my background is that I am a Mormon who was raised by an Ex-Atheist and an Ex-Catholic. (crazy, I know.)
When I'm praying, it's not just to ask for things, or to give thanks, it's sort of like a verbal journal entry. I talk about my wants, my fears, how my day went, what that strange spot on the desk at school reminds me of, things like that. God doesn't just want us to ask him for things, he's our Spiritual Father, he wants us to talk with him, not just at him.
"normality is a paved road: it is comfortable to walk, but no flowers grow there."
-Vincent Van Gogh
things I hate:
1. lists.
b. inconsistencies.
V. incorrect math.
2. quotes in signatures
III: irony.
there are two kinds of people in the world: those who can make reasonable conclusions based on conjecture.
If anything that proves my point about how people can be stupid and irrational. A trained statistician was stupid enough to use a small sample size, a journalist employed at NPR was stupid enough to publish a story about it, and I was stupid enough to link to it.
Basically, people are flawed so they're going to pray in flawed and irrational ways. Their behavior doesn't undermine the validity of prayer itself. That's what I was driving at.
FYI, at p=0.05, surveying a random sample of 2200 people out of the US population of 320 million, is enough to obtain a 2% confidence interval on a yes/no question on which 25% of those surveyed answered one way or the other. In other words, the sample size given here was statistically adequate (95% certainty) to conclude that between 23 and 27% of the populace would answer yes to the Sun orbiting the Earth, assuming all the usual assumptions that Pearson-Fisher statistical methodology assumes.
Whatever the problems with this survey may be, sample size isn't one of them. You may determine whether or not the sample size of a survey is too small by using this handy-dandy sample size calculator. This is the first thing I do whenever someone says a sample size is too small, and I find that people who say that are usually wrong.
Which if thou dost not use for clearing away the clouds from thy mind
It will go and thou wilt go, never to return.
I've heard of people pray for that all the time - that others will adopt their own belief system. I believe it stems from insecurity - it's easier to feel better about one's own religious choices if others join you. I would guess that prayers for others to join one's own belief system outweighs the number of prayers for the welfare of others quite heavily. It could, but it doesn't. What prayer actually does is convince people that if you mumble a few words to the deity of your choice, that you are helping. So if someone is in need, many good religious people that ordinarily might have actively helped the person in need can stay at home and pray for them instead, which does nothing.
Prayer encourages people against helping others by providing an easy alternative that doesn't work but it makes them think that they're helping.
My G Yisan, the Bard of Death G deck.
My BUGWR Hermit druid BUGWR deck.
Why pray to God? Why not Buddha? Or Vishnu? Or the Flying Spaghetti Monster? Same benefit, right? Either way you're praying.
No, either God exists or he isn't. If he doesn't, there is no benefit to praying to God. Trying to give an atheist reasons to think prayer is valuable is doing it wrong.
Needless to say, that person's a *****.
Demonstrate that there's no benefit to praying to a god that doesn't exist.
It is entirely possible that people derive benefits from prayer. Kids talk to imaginary friends because it makes them feel better. If sitting down to pray, even if there's nothing on the other end listening, results in a positive experience, then there is a benefit to prayer.
Pristaxcontrombmodruu!
you know what. It is so easy to refute you on this one.
Whats the benefit of praying to a God that doesn't exist? It makes some people feel better.
So does Scientology. So does calling a psychic on the telephone.
So does smacking a girl around. Obviously, "because it makes some people feel better" isn't enough to say an action is good.
Prayer is a harmless action, though, as there is no measurable suffering caused to others by someone praying. Regardless of the existence of god, if the praying person is left in a better mental state, then it's clearly a good thing that the prayer happens.
I know several people who spend time in prayer and I know it allows them to collect their thoughts, relieve frustration, calm down, be introspective and realize mistakes they've made. For these people, prayer is most certainly helpful, even if god isn't there listening to or acting on their prayers.
Prayer doesn't do anything for me because I see it as talking to an imaginary friend. If I want the same results as above, I'll meditate.
Pristaxcontrombmodruu!
I don't see anything here that refutes what I'm saying. The OP posed a question, and it has been answered.
And if it makes some people feel better than certainly there is some good to that. Whether the good outweighs the bad is another issue. But I did not pick that argument.
What I do know is that time and time again arguments in this forum concerning religion completely miss the point or deny that fact that most people simply are emotional creatures.
I was borderline aspergers before and it continues to remain somewhat difficult for me to comprehend the extent of why people are not comforted by pure logic.
I'm not sure if you are highroller. But you seem like it. So let me tell you what I have learned. Logic does not make most people feel better.
I hope you understand that. And I hope you understand that the vast majority of people are wired not to feel better from logical arguments. In their moment of suffering or trial, prayer helps them feel better. It is completely irrelevant whether or not God exists.
I don't understand why you are so biased against prayer. It's like the illogicality of it truly bothers you. I understand that. But it is a biased view. A more neutral viewpoint would at least view it as an effective mechanism of assuaging the masses in their moments of personal suffering. If God doesn't exist, then praying to thin air is a cheapest most economically efficient means of making some people feel better.
Tell me what is the economic cost in lost productivity of those members of society unable to function because of their grief? There people are unable to produce goods and services to the best of their ability. It is clear to me that if uttering words to thin air is sufficient to offset some of those costs, it is a valuable tool.
The only reason I have come to understand this is because I am now in a position where I must rally people, people who are primarily emotional.
It has become a salient question to my career now to be able to rally persons who are not comforted by logic. I assure you to me, prayer is a Godsend (pun intended).
For I now have at my disposal a means to direct their emotions towards more productive endeavors, whereas before I only had the woefully inadequate tool that was logic.
Why do you think this is true? Maybe the type of person who would loudly tell you "I prayed for your child" is the same type of person with the level of insecurity necessary to pray for your child's religious conversion rather than her recovery.
I'd bet there were other religious people who knew about your daughter's situation and quietly prayed for her to get better without rubbing it in your face. The loud ones get the attention, but that doesn't mean they represent a majority.
Again, why do you think this is true? How do you respond to my earlier comments about this issue?
Scientology and telephone psychics have serious drawbacks that harm people (e.g. by taking their money). If these drawbacks didn't exist, these institutions wouldn't be problematic. Certainly the sense of hope these things provide and the fact that they make some people feel better isn't what makes them bad. It's all the other bad stuff that comes along with that.
1) Because of personal experience.
2) Because it makes sense. People are selfish. People are more likely to pray for what they want, not what others want. And if you're one of those people who think that its bad to pray for your own wants, it's easy to spin that as a selfless prayer by claiming that it is what is best for the other person, when really it is only serving your own interests.
From her perspective, she may have thought that she prioritized correctly if she saw this life as merely a stepping stone to a much more important afterlife - one's health on earth is not as important as eternal paradise. I'm not justifying what she said and did, I'm just considering her point of view.
My reasoning is self evident. If someone truly wants to help others, they will get off their butt and do it, not talk or pray about it. And when they do, they will get the sense of satisfaction that comes from helping others. But when people pray, they accomplish nothing for others but they still get some sense of satisfaction as though they helped them. Laziness is rewarded. If you get the same sense of satisfaction from helping others as you do for praying, religious people will often go with the easier option.
And if there are passages that tell them that prayer should not be a substitute for action - who cares? There's passages that promote slavery too - ignoring inconvenient passages is standard behavior.
My G Yisan, the Bard of Death G deck.
My BUGWR Hermit druid BUGWR deck.
The metric you proposed is that some people feel better when praying, therefore prayer has a benefit. Well some people feel better as a result of Scientology. Some people feel better as a result of people claiming to be psychics.
So would you care to argue that Scientology is beneficial for people, or would you agree with me when I say that I think we need to advance a new metric?
Apparently a heroin high feels great.
Again, really feel that a new metric needs to be added.
No, you did not, but I feel it's a natural concern that should be addressed.
I don't know what you mean by "simply are emotional creatures" or its relevance to the discussion. Would you mind elaborate?
I'm not sure what you mean by that either.
Depends on the situation.
Wearing mismatched socks can make some people feel better. That's not the issue. If prayer is on the same level as wearing different color socks, not shaving your beard, carrying a good luck charm, or any other superstition or quirk people have, then prayer has no benefit to a person.
This is the very basis of the placebo effect. People feel better when taking a pill, even if the pill is a sugar pill.
Is it completely irrelevant whether the pill you're eating is medicine or a sugar pill?
I'm not biased against prayer.
I do not, however, regard praying to a deity that doesn't exist as anything other than nonsensical. It's one thing to be genuinely ignorant as to that deity's nonexistence, but saying "Well, there's still benefit to believing something that's totally false" is, in my opinion, completely the wrong position to argue from.
So you don't give a crap whether who they're praying to or what you're saying to rally them is truth or a total lie, you just care about the results they give you?
That is simultaneously selfish, disturbing, cruel, and dehumanizing.
But hey, as long as they make people feel better, there must be some benefit, right? (Blue is for sarcasm)
They would still be problematic. They are built upon lying to people.
Actually, it is what makes them bad. I'm reminded of a story I read in which a "medium" predicted that a family's child was still alive, only for that child's body to later be found.
So, what's the metric?
The problem with Heroin is not that it feels good. The problem is that it's addictive and harmful in other ways.
If something feels good and has no drawbacks, then it's a net positive.
The placebo effect is a real effect that has measurable benefits for people. It can actually help people feel better. Who cares if it's "real" or not if it really helps you?
If something makes people feel better and does them no harm, it is a good thing.
If it causes harm, then it's a bad thing if total harm > total benefit. Since feeling good is a small-ish benefit, most forms of harm will outweigh it.
Likewise, if one is receiving joy from deception, whether it be self-deception or deception from another, then one is being harmed, and is being harmed by the same thing that one receives pleasure.
Because it is based upon deception. It is lying to a person that he is taking medicine when he is not.
Let me ask you this: Even if Scientology demanded no money from its followers, performed no acts of coercion, nor ran its campaign of harrassment, would it not still be harmful?