http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_Hell
The idea of an omnibenevolent God is incompatible with an eternity of hell, where there is fire, and suffering, and it's dark and it sucks. I thought I should make this thread instead of continuing posting in a different thread.
What are the different ideas of hell, and how long do people stay there? Are in they in there suffering for eternity, or do they get destroyed after suffering for an indetermined amount of time (who knows when Jesus will come back)? Is hell temporary, a place of suffering but also rehabilitation so that people have a second chance of getting into heaven? I've seen these words mentioned in the Bible: "Sheol", "Hades", and "Gehenna". What are these?
Actually, Sheol is not Hell. It's an older Jewish tradition of a land of the dead where all people go and where there is no sunlight. It's much like the Hades of Greek mythology.
And no, Hell is incompatible with a loving, benevolent deity. It doesn't exist, don't worry about it.
I've heard hell being defined as the absence of God. Spending the rest of eternity away from the omnibenevolent deity is "punishment" in and of itself.
I'm not Christian (or affiliate with any religion) so take my words with a grain of salt.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_Hell
The idea of an omnibenevolent God is incompatible with an eternity of hell, where there is fire, and suffering, and it's dark and it sucks. I thought I should make this thread instead of continuing posting in a different thread.
What are the different ideas of hell, and how long do people stay there? Are in they in there suffering for eternity, or do they get destroyed after suffering for an indetermined amount of time (who knows when Jesus will come back)? Is hell temporary, a place of suffering but also rehabilitation so that people have a second chance of getting into heaven? I've seen these words mentioned in the Bible: "Sheol", "Hades", and "Gehenna". What are these?
I guess the idea of prison is then also incompatible with a omnibevolent government? The one tries to persuade you from killing people by promising you a life sentence in a bad place and the other one tries to persuade you to not kill people by promising you a life-after life sentence in a bad place.
How unreasonable. They both should just let us kill each other like we please.
So what are the references to hell (as a place of torment) in the bible to you?
To me hell is like a blue screen but instead of blue it is black. You can walk for eternity in any direction and still not see anything else but this infinite darkness all around you. Is this what the Bible teaches I do not know but that is how I imagine it to be.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_Hell
The idea of an omnibenevolent God is incompatible with an eternity of hell, where there is fire, and suffering, and it's dark and it sucks. I thought I should make this thread instead of continuing posting in a different thread.
What are the different ideas of hell, and how long do people stay there? Are in they in there suffering for eternity, or do they get destroyed after suffering for an indetermined amount of time (who knows when Jesus will come back)? Is hell temporary, a place of suffering but also rehabilitation so that people have a second chance of getting into heaven? I've seen these words mentioned in the Bible: "Sheol", "Hades", and "Gehenna". What are these?
I guess the idea of prison is then also incompatible with a omnibevolent government? The one tries to persuade you from killing people by promising you a life sentence in a bad place and the other one tries to persuade you to not kill people by promising you a life-after life sentence in a bad place.
How unreasonable. They both should just let us kill each other like we please.
Government is not omnibenevolent. It is also - and far more importantly - not omnipotent. It couldn't have prevented your crime and can't guarantee that it reforms you after the crime, whereas a God which can't do both is an impoverished deity indeed in terms of power.
I guess the idea of prison is then also incompatible with a omnibevolent government? The one tries to persuade you from killing people by promising you a life sentence in a bad place and the other one tries to persuade you to not kill people by promising you a life-after life sentence in a bad place.
Do you understand that there can be levels of punishment, and that some go too far? That there is a difference between a rehabilitation center and a North Korean death camp?
There is not a "problem with hell". There is only a problem with people reconciling their unsubstantiated beliefs with hell, or anything else for that matter.
It sure would be cool if Highroller was correct. Sadly, he could be very wrong, and furthermore, scripture does not support his beliefs.
Not only does scripture disagree with him, but scripture, and HR could both be wrong.
It is possible that God is exactly the kind of guy that would punish people for disbelief, sins, blasphemy, etc. God could very well be everything the Old Testament makes him out to be. A jealous, vengeful being who lashes out at the disobedient.
Scripture supports this God.
He could be a bitter, conceited tyrant who demands his creations bow before him and worship him or else they pay the ultimate price.
He could be a guy that created himself some toys to play with however he sees fit.
It's also possible he is some sort of never-do-wrong like HR believes. A completely omni-benevolent force who is the very embodiment of love and peace.
Scripture doesn't support this idea at all, but it still could be correct.
It's also possible that he has nothing to do with us, a total non-interventionist.
There could be a God, and no heaven or hell or afterlife at all.
Creating the Universe doesn't necessarily require the creation of souls, or an afterlife.
That could just be human wishful thinking.
God could have created the Universe then not done anything else with it after that, his own personal brain fart.
Scripture does not support Mondu either, there is no clear indication that any of the !warnings! about hell in the Bible/Torah/Quran are "metaphorical suffering you'll undergo by not being in God's presence". Claims made in those holy scriptures flat out posit that there is a horrible torturous place our souls could go if we didn't live up to God's standards.
I would argue that since the world itself seems to lack any sign God's presence (unless he is a sadist or something), and I personally have not felt his presence in the world or myself, then wouldn't THIS world be hell? That's a pretty low standard for Hell.
And if Highroller, or Mondu HAVE his presence in their lives, or believe his presence is in the World, that's an equally low standard for Heaven.
And that is indeed a situation of the excluded middle.
Either God's presence is in the world, and this heaven is pretty lame, or God's presence is not in the world, and this hell is just as disappointing in grandeur.
And even if his presence isn't manifest, but resides within the hearts of people like Highroller and Mondu, that even their lives, are a pretty weak example of heaven in the flesh.
How great can Heaven be after all, if God's presence in Highroller is any indication of it's quality?
Nor how horrible can Hell be, if God's absence in IcecreamMan80 is any indication of it's quality?
It's also possible, and much more reasonable (more likely) to assume given the complete lack of evidence, that there is no God(s) at all.
Sure, dying and ceasing to exist sounds frightening on the surface, but then, I didn't exist before I was born either...
I would argue that since the world itself seems to lack any sign God's presence (unless he is a sadist or something), and I personally have not felt his presence in the world or myself, then wouldn't THIS world be hell? That's a pretty low standard for Hell.
And if Highroller, or Mondu HAVE his presence in their lives, or believe his presence is in the World, that's an equally low standard for Heaven.
And that is indeed a situation of the excluded middle.
Either God's presence is in the world, and this heaven is pretty lame, or God's presence is not in the world, and this hell is just as disappointing in grandeur.
And even if his presence isn't manifest, but resides within the hearts of people like Highroller and Mondu, that even their lives, are a pretty weak example of heaven in the flesh.
How great can Heaven be after all, if God's presence in Highroller is any indication of it's quality?
Nor how horrible can Hell be, if God's absence in IcecreamMan80 is any indication of it's quality?
If it's incorrect, why don't they take it out now.
Why would they? Just because you disagree with something doesn't mean you get to rewrite it. I don't agree with Sir Isaac Newton on many details, that doesn't give me license to rewrite what he wrote.
I don't think either of those describes God very well.
A child being spanked, scolded, or otherwise punished by their parents thinks so, too.
There is a huge difference between a loving benevolent parent spanking their child to encourage disciplined behavior.
and
A cruel sadomasochist parent strapping their kid to a box spring and whipping them repeatedly for years, then forcing them to watch murder porn while sodomizing them with foreign objects, all because that kid didn't show them the respect they felt they were entitled to as a parent.
Now, maybe God is a benevolent parent, who simply spanks us when we misbehave.
But maybe, just maybe, God viciously tortures, for eternity, not just those guilty of finite serious crimes, but also those guilty of such finite and trivial crimes such as not believing he exists because there's no evidence for him and they aren't gullible or superstitious.
One of those two ideas is actually supported by volumes of holy scriptures from around the world, and it's not the one you want it to be.
If Hell is simply "being absent the presence of Gods love" or some such nonsense...
Then I'd currently already be in Hell correct?
Hell doesn't seem so bad.
Furthermore, if Heaven is "being in the presence of God's love" or some such nonsense...
Don't YOU have some of that presence in your life already? Don't you believe that God has
some presence in the world?
Heaven doesn't seem so great either.
But maybe, just maybe, God viciously tortures, for eternity, not just those guilty of finite serious crimes, but also those guilty of such finite and trivial crimes such as not believing he exists because there's no evidence for him and they aren't gullible or superstitious.
Except this thread is SPECIFICALLY about a benevolent God. Did you not read the OP? How does hell fit into the image of a benevolent god?
Honestly, the way you're posing your questions squashes any form of discussion.
Original topic: How does X fit Y?
You: But what if X isn't X?
It's like reading a thread about how eating meat is ethical, then you going "What if animals were actually ALIENS and then if their homeworld finds out that you're eating them they send an invasion fleet?!"
There is no "problem of hell"
That Hell is incompatible with an omnibenevolent God isn't a problem with Hell. It's a problem with the qualifier of God being omnibenevolent.
If there is a Hell, in any form, then God isn't omnibenevolent/all-loving.
Even if hell is "being apart from God's love" it still would be inconsistent.
God would be infinitely forgiving and loving, like a woman with battered woman syndrome, it wouldn't matter what you did to him, he'd always take you back.
Worse in fact, since at least with a battered woman, the state, or friends and family would step in on her behalf, that or she could die and be free of her abuser.
God wouldn't even have that to fall back on.
Welcome to a Heaven with Hitler and Dahmer.
So, if a hell does exist, ESPECIALLY one which tortures and flails sinners forever and ever (you know, the one supported by scripture) then God is NOT omnibenevolent/all-loving.
He actively sends people there, and purposefully built that torture chamber prior to creating mankind at all. Premeditated eternal torture for finite crimes is as far from "benevolent" as I am from "perfect".
It's actually more like
Question: How does X fit into Y, if Y supposedly contains quality B, which is counter to X.
Answer: Y doesn't actually contain quality B. Therefore X fits Y.
I'll go off on a slight tangent here and say that the problem with Hell, from a Biblical perspective and within the mainstream Christian tradition, is that it's so internally inconsistent.
1. If we need salvation through Jesus Christ because we can never (by good works) be good or perfect enough to EARN heaven, then neither can we (by bad works) be evil or imperfect enough to EARN hell. So, as I said in another thread: if heaven is the unmerited gift of God's grace, then hell is the unmerited curse of God's caprice, i.e. schizoid Deity.
2. We're told that God cannot allow the "unsaved" into heaven because His perfect Holiness cannot abide the presence of sin. But if God cannot abide the presence of sin, then how is it possible that Jesus Christ (living in the midst of sinners as he did) was actually God? And if God can endure sin by taking on human (or some other) form, then why not do so tirelessly, exhaustively, until by one manifestation or other He had saved all sinners?
3. Hell is the abode of Satan. Satan was tempted by pride to rebel against God, which is why he was cast down out of heaven. However, we are also told that Satan is the originator of sin, and that God cannot sin or cause others to sin. But Satan could not have been tempted by pride unless the temptation had pre-existed him; so temptation actually did have its origins in God...?
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Love. Forgive. Trust. Be willing to be broken that you may be remade.
it wouldn't matter what you did to him, he'd always take you back.
Are you familiar with the parable of the prodigal son?
God is willing to take back sinners.
It is sinners that voluntarily choose not to be with God.
"Not being in God's presence" does not mean God casts you out (your entire argument rests on this). It means you chose not to be with him.
The door is always open if the sinner wants to return.
Am I to assume by this that you are arguing from a strict Christianity basis? You do realize many nonchristian faiths also contain hells right, and you do realize not all hells are the same right?
Even then, granting your obvious bias, exactly HOW is one supposed to change their mind after they die?
If you rejected God while alive, go to "hell" after you die, is there a chance at changing your mind? Is there a chance in the afterlife to go back?
If you can be in "hell" and still have a chance at salvation, and since this is in the afterlife which presumably lasts forever, then you have *<Forever to change your mind, and still manage to enjoy >*Forever in Heaven. There would be no need to accept him during your earthly life.
If you do NOT get a chance in the afterlife to change your mind, and you remain in "hell" forever, then again, it is a INFINITE punishment for a FINITE (and minor) crime of disbelief.
THAT is not benevolent. It isn't justice. It isn't balanced. It's vengeful, spiteful, and unforgiving.
I don't want to talk about the Parable of the Prodigal Son. It's irrelevant. God may not be YHWH, Christianity could be wrong. The God and Hell that actually exist may not have anything to do with that Parable. So to base anything on it, it already erroneous.
The God that exists might not leave an "open door" for sinners to walk through. He may in fact cast them out.
The idea of an omnibenevolent God is incompatible with an eternity of hell, where there is fire, and suffering, and it's dark and it sucks. I thought I should make this thread instead of continuing posting in a different thread.
Continued from this thread:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=535107
What are the different ideas of hell, and how long do people stay there? Are in they in there suffering for eternity, or do they get destroyed after suffering for an indetermined amount of time (who knows when Jesus will come back)? Is hell temporary, a place of suffering but also rehabilitation so that people have a second chance of getting into heaven? I've seen these words mentioned in the Bible: "Sheol", "Hades", and "Gehenna". What are these?
Actually, Sheol is not Hell. It's an older Jewish tradition of a land of the dead where all people go and where there is no sunlight. It's much like the Hades of Greek mythology.
And no, Hell is incompatible with a loving, benevolent deity. It doesn't exist, don't worry about it.
Are you not considering the alternative that the deity isn't all loving and benevolent?
I'm not, no.
So what are the references to hell (as a place of torment) in the bible to you?
I'm not Christian (or affiliate with any religion) so take my words with a grain of salt.
Metaphorical suffering you'll undergo by not being in God's presence.
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
I guess the idea of prison is then also incompatible with a omnibevolent government? The one tries to persuade you from killing people by promising you a life sentence in a bad place and the other one tries to persuade you to not kill people by promising you a life-after life sentence in a bad place.
How unreasonable. They both should just let us kill each other like we please.
To me hell is like a blue screen but instead of blue it is black. You can walk for eternity in any direction and still not see anything else but this infinite darkness all around you. Is this what the Bible teaches I do not know but that is how I imagine it to be.
Government is not omnibenevolent. It is also - and far more importantly - not omnipotent. It couldn't have prevented your crime and can't guarantee that it reforms you after the crime, whereas a God which can't do both is an impoverished deity indeed in terms of power.
What if you don't like God? Wouldn't you enjoy being away from him? Wouldn't hell be paradise for a person like that?
Incorrect.
Why would you not like goodness and love?
It sure would be cool if Highroller was correct. Sadly, he could be very wrong, and furthermore, scripture does not support his beliefs.
Not only does scripture disagree with him, but scripture, and HR could both be wrong.
It is possible that God is exactly the kind of guy that would punish people for disbelief, sins, blasphemy, etc. God could very well be everything the Old Testament makes him out to be. A jealous, vengeful being who lashes out at the disobedient.
Scripture supports this God.
He could be a bitter, conceited tyrant who demands his creations bow before him and worship him or else they pay the ultimate price.
He could be a guy that created himself some toys to play with however he sees fit.
It's also possible he is some sort of never-do-wrong like HR believes. A completely omni-benevolent force who is the very embodiment of love and peace.
Scripture doesn't support this idea at all, but it still could be correct.
It's also possible that he has nothing to do with us, a total non-interventionist.
There could be a God, and no heaven or hell or afterlife at all.
Creating the Universe doesn't necessarily require the creation of souls, or an afterlife.
That could just be human wishful thinking.
God could have created the Universe then not done anything else with it after that, his own personal brain fart.
Scripture does not support Mondu either, there is no clear indication that any of the !warnings! about hell in the Bible/Torah/Quran are "metaphorical suffering you'll undergo by not being in God's presence". Claims made in those holy scriptures flat out posit that there is a horrible torturous place our souls could go if we didn't live up to God's standards.
I would argue that since the world itself seems to lack any sign God's presence (unless he is a sadist or something), and I personally have not felt his presence in the world or myself, then wouldn't THIS world be hell? That's a pretty low standard for Hell.
And if Highroller, or Mondu HAVE his presence in their lives, or believe his presence is in the World, that's an equally low standard for Heaven.
And that is indeed a situation of the excluded middle.
Either God's presence is in the world, and this heaven is pretty lame, or God's presence is not in the world, and this hell is just as disappointing in grandeur.
And even if his presence isn't manifest, but resides within the hearts of people like Highroller and Mondu, that even their lives, are a pretty weak example of heaven in the flesh.
How great can Heaven be after all, if God's presence in Highroller is any indication of it's quality?
Nor how horrible can Hell be, if God's absence in IcecreamMan80 is any indication of it's quality?
It's also possible, and much more reasonable (more likely) to assume given the complete lack of evidence, that there is no God(s) at all.
Sure, dying and ceasing to exist sounds frightening on the surface, but then, I didn't exist before I was born either...
Thanks to Xenphire @ Inkfox for the amazing new sig
“Thus strangely are our souls constructed, and by slight ligaments
are we bound to prosperity and ruin.”
― Mary Shelley, Frankenstein
Why is it in the bible then?
I don't think either of those describes God very well.
Because the people who wrote the Bible, the communities they came from, and religious traditions they were a part of all believed Hell did exist.
Would you care to elaborate?
Umm, what?
A child being spanked, scolded, or otherwise punished by their parents thinks so, too.
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
If it's incorrect, why don't they take it out now.
Also other Christians (on this board) seem to think that hell exists, are they wrong too?
I'd be going very off topic at this point
Why would they? Just because you disagree with something doesn't mean you get to rewrite it. I don't agree with Sir Isaac Newton on many details, that doesn't give me license to rewrite what he wrote.
No you wouldn't.
There is a huge difference between a loving benevolent parent spanking their child to encourage disciplined behavior.
and
A cruel sadomasochist parent strapping their kid to a box spring and whipping them repeatedly for years, then forcing them to watch murder porn while sodomizing them with foreign objects, all because that kid didn't show them the respect they felt they were entitled to as a parent.
Now, maybe God is a benevolent parent, who simply spanks us when we misbehave.
But maybe, just maybe, God viciously tortures, for eternity, not just those guilty of finite serious crimes, but also those guilty of such finite and trivial crimes such as not believing he exists because there's no evidence for him and they aren't gullible or superstitious.
One of those two ideas is actually supported by volumes of holy scriptures from around the world, and it's not the one you want it to be.
If Hell is simply "being absent the presence of Gods love" or some such nonsense...
Then I'd currently already be in Hell correct?
Hell doesn't seem so bad.
Furthermore, if Heaven is "being in the presence of God's love" or some such nonsense...
Don't YOU have some of that presence in your life already? Don't you believe that God has
some presence in the world?
Heaven doesn't seem so great either.
Thanks to Xenphire @ Inkfox for the amazing new sig
“Thus strangely are our souls constructed, and by slight ligaments
are we bound to prosperity and ruin.”
― Mary Shelley, Frankenstein
Except this thread is SPECIFICALLY about a benevolent God. Did you not read the OP? How does hell fit into the image of a benevolent god?
Honestly, the way you're posing your questions squashes any form of discussion.
Original topic: How does X fit Y?
You: But what if X isn't X?
It's like reading a thread about how eating meat is ethical, then you going "What if animals were actually ALIENS and then if their homeworld finds out that you're eating them they send an invasion fleet?!"
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
Reading is tech
There is no "problem of hell"
That Hell is incompatible with an omnibenevolent God isn't a problem with Hell. It's a problem with the qualifier of God being omnibenevolent.
If there is a Hell, in any form, then God isn't omnibenevolent/all-loving.
Even if hell is "being apart from God's love" it still would be inconsistent.
God would be infinitely forgiving and loving, like a woman with battered woman syndrome, it wouldn't matter what you did to him, he'd always take you back.
Worse in fact, since at least with a battered woman, the state, or friends and family would step in on her behalf, that or she could die and be free of her abuser.
God wouldn't even have that to fall back on.
Welcome to a Heaven with Hitler and Dahmer.
So, if a hell does exist, ESPECIALLY one which tortures and flails sinners forever and ever (you know, the one supported by scripture) then God is NOT omnibenevolent/all-loving.
He actively sends people there, and purposefully built that torture chamber prior to creating mankind at all. Premeditated eternal torture for finite crimes is as far from "benevolent" as I am from "perfect".
It's actually more like
Question: How does X fit into Y, if Y supposedly contains quality B, which is counter to X.
Answer: Y doesn't actually contain quality B. Therefore X fits Y.
Thanks to Xenphire @ Inkfox for the amazing new sig
“Thus strangely are our souls constructed, and by slight ligaments
are we bound to prosperity and ruin.”
― Mary Shelley, Frankenstein
God is willing to take back sinners.
It is sinners that voluntarily choose not to be with God.
"Not being in God's presence" does not mean God casts you out (your entire argument rests on this). It means you chose not to be with him.
The door is always open if the sinner wants to return.
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
1. If we need salvation through Jesus Christ because we can never (by good works) be good or perfect enough to EARN heaven, then neither can we (by bad works) be evil or imperfect enough to EARN hell. So, as I said in another thread: if heaven is the unmerited gift of God's grace, then hell is the unmerited curse of God's caprice, i.e. schizoid Deity.
2. We're told that God cannot allow the "unsaved" into heaven because His perfect Holiness cannot abide the presence of sin. But if God cannot abide the presence of sin, then how is it possible that Jesus Christ (living in the midst of sinners as he did) was actually God? And if God can endure sin by taking on human (or some other) form, then why not do so tirelessly, exhaustively, until by one manifestation or other He had saved all sinners?
3. Hell is the abode of Satan. Satan was tempted by pride to rebel against God, which is why he was cast down out of heaven. However, we are also told that Satan is the originator of sin, and that God cannot sin or cause others to sin. But Satan could not have been tempted by pride unless the temptation had pre-existed him; so temptation actually did have its origins in God...?
Am I to assume by this that you are arguing from a strict Christianity basis? You do realize many nonchristian faiths also contain hells right, and you do realize not all hells are the same right?
Even then, granting your obvious bias, exactly HOW is one supposed to change their mind after they die?
If you rejected God while alive, go to "hell" after you die, is there a chance at changing your mind? Is there a chance in the afterlife to go back?
If you can be in "hell" and still have a chance at salvation, and since this is in the afterlife which presumably lasts forever, then you have *<Forever to change your mind, and still manage to enjoy >*Forever in Heaven. There would be no need to accept him during your earthly life.
If you do NOT get a chance in the afterlife to change your mind, and you remain in "hell" forever, then again, it is a INFINITE punishment for a FINITE (and minor) crime of disbelief.
THAT is not benevolent. It isn't justice. It isn't balanced. It's vengeful, spiteful, and unforgiving.
I don't want to talk about the Parable of the Prodigal Son. It's irrelevant. God may not be YHWH, Christianity could be wrong. The God and Hell that actually exist may not have anything to do with that Parable. So to base anything on it, it already erroneous.
The God that exists might not leave an "open door" for sinners to walk through. He may in fact cast them out.
Thanks to Xenphire @ Inkfox for the amazing new sig
“Thus strangely are our souls constructed, and by slight ligaments
are we bound to prosperity and ruin.”
― Mary Shelley, Frankenstein