As an atheist this makes little sense to me. If god is in fact infallible and his will is inevitable then why pray? If anything it might piss him off that you are questioning his decisions. Furthermore why look both ways when you cross a street when you're going to "go" when it is your time anyways?
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
As an atheist this makes little sense to me. If god is in fact infallible and his will is inevitable then why pray? If anything it might piss him off that you are questioning his decisions. Furthermore why look both ways when you cross a street when you're going to "go" when it is your time anyways?
This is an extremely profound question, one whose true answer lies at the heart of what it means to be a Christian, at least in my life.
It's answer reveals the incompleteness of broaching religion through a purely logical framework.
You're absolutely right. Prayer makes no sense to a God who is already omniscient. Even more nonsensical is that God wants us to pray to him, and that Jesus himself frequently prayed to God.
Prayer is a time of reflection, a moment of frankness of speaking between you and God. Apart from all the clamor of the day-to-day, apart from all the troubles of daily life, it is you speaking directly to God with full knowledge that every regret, every apprehension of yours is already known to him.
Christians usually pray when they're experiencing hard or difficult times, when they honestly and openly express that they don't have all the answers in life.
But it's that honesty and openness in prayer which paves the way for something more--a spirit of humility. It sets the heart of the person praying in the right attitude to be able to listen, earnestly, both to what you need and where you could have gone wrong.
The bible teaches this time and time again. But it's something I could never really understand while I was that atheist always raring to engage any Christian in debate.
On that attitude of humility the bible says "The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit and a contrite heart" psalm 51:17
Prayer sets that person up for change, both in attitude and clarifying in the mind of that person, what he or she needed in the first place.
Finally, prayer is an act of trust in God for the very best. When prayer is truly earnest, as it so often is when it comes during one's darkest hour of trial, that act of trust is a pretty deep act of faith on your part towards him. God knows that too, and he doesn't betray that trust.
Prayer starts off in reflection, leads to openness with God,
paving the way for one's own humility and a ready ear to listen, and ends with entrusting God with your request.
You are missing that most people who do use prayer as a wishing mechanism (like my mom does) generally do not believe in a deterministic based omniscience of God. They do not believe that his knowing interferes with free will, and they also generally believe he is an interventionist, he intervened before, he'll intervene again on their behalf.
Now, they don't believe he is an interventionist, and they do believe everything is according to his "plan" and still use wishful prayer - then yeah that's something silly.
Then sometimes, they know their prayers are futile but are desperate enough to do it out of sheer hope (or hopelessness if you want to look at it that way).
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“Thus strangely are our souls constructed, and by slight ligaments
are we bound to prosperity and ruin.”
― Mary Shelley, Frankenstein
You are not making sense Craig.
You claimed that prayer purified the mind and body regardless of beliefs.
I (sarcastically) disagreed with that, stating that A) you must have meant something else like antibiotics, and B) there's no evidence that prayer works.
Then you agree with me, twice.
So either, you made your first statement knowing it was false (maybe you were being sarcastic to begin with); or you actually are confused about your own initial claim.
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“Thus strangely are our souls constructed, and by slight ligaments
are we bound to prosperity and ruin.”
― Mary Shelley, Frankenstein
I pray. Not quite daily, because I'm a horrible Mormon. But I totally pray a lot. I pray for three reasons:
1) The scriptures tell us to pray. Duh.
2) We have free will. Mormons call it 'agency'. We don't believe that God is actually omni-anything. He has a physical body, so He's not omnipresent. He relies on the Holy Spirit, which is omnipresent but isn't omniscient, for information, so He's not omniscient. Therefore, He doesn't necessarily know what's in our hearts or minds. Thus, for Mormons at least, praying to Heavenly Father is a vital part of maintaining our relationship with Him.
3) Telling God that all of the bullcrap that's happening in and to my life is in His hands and that I trust Him to keep me at least safe and hopefully happy makes me feel better and keeps my attitude more positive (in a way that sex absolutely can't.)
"I wasn't sleeping. I'm a beta-tester for Google Eyelids...I was just taking the opportunity to update my Facebook page." -- Morgan Freeman, accused of napping during a TV interview.
You originally made a claim that <Prayer> (purified) the mind and body, regardless of beliefs.
~to which I alluded - don't you mean <antioxidants/antibiotics>, as in, things that have actually been proven to (purify) the body regardless of whether you believe they will work or not. You replied that you agreed with me, which is counter to your original claim.
Then you claimed that we can view <prayer> in the same manner with which we view <antibiotics/antioxidants>.
~to which I replied, not without evidence that <prayer> does anything which was a rather obvious implication on my part that there was no evidence prayer did anything. Again you agreed with me, which is counter to your original claim.
So do you believe <prayer> (purifies) or not? Because by agreeing with my statements, it would appear that you don't, which is counter to the claims that you are trying to make in this thread.
You are not making sense Craig.
You claimed that prayer purified the mind and body regardless of beliefs.
I (sarcastically) disagreed with that, stating that A) you must have meant something else like antibiotics, and B) there's no evidence that prayer works.
Then you agree with me, twice.
So either, you made your first statement knowing it was false (maybe you were being sarcastic to begin with); or you actually are confused about your own initial claim.
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Thanks to Xenphire @ Inkfox for the amazing new sig
“Thus strangely are our souls constructed, and by slight ligaments
are we bound to prosperity and ruin.”
― Mary Shelley, Frankenstein
I pray. Not quite daily, because I'm a horrible Mormon. But I totally pray a lot. I pray for three reasons:
1) The scriptures tell us to pray. Duh.
2) We have free will. Mormons call it 'agency'. We don't believe that God is actually omni-anything. He has a physical body, so He's not omnipresent. He relies on the Holy Spirit, which is omnipresent but isn't omniscient, for information, so He's not omniscient. Therefore, He doesn't necessarily know what's in our hearts or minds. Thus, for Mormons at least, praying to Heavenly Father is a vital part of maintaining our relationship with him.
3) Telling God that all of the bullcrap that's happening in and to my life is in His hands and that I trust Him to keep me at least safe and hopefully happy makes me feel better and keeps my attitude more positive (in a way that sex absolutely can't.)
Pretty simple.
4) You need to be ready in case he decides to tell you that he's changed his mind and black people suck again.
Nah, that's what the Prophet and the 12 Apostles are there for. Really big decisions like that have to come from the guy with the keys* to hear directly from the G-O-single-D.
*: 'keys' is a Mormon keyword (no pun intended) that means 'priesthood authority passed down from Jesus to Joseph and handed out in a hierarchical manner'. There are keys that ordinary priests** like me receive that let us do things like bless our friends and neighbors, and then there are the big, super rare keys that let you do things like heal the sick and talk to God.
**: 'priest' in Mormon terms simply means any baptized male that continues to be devout. We're all priests, and we can all give minor blessings, offer counsel, and so on.
[edit]Speaking of which, because I didn't miss the barb in that post, I just thought I should mention: God not being omniscient and all that, He totally does actually change his mind from time to time based on what He hears about us humans doing. So having judgments come down like "stop marrying seventy women at a time' and 'black people aren't evil anymore' is not only normal, but it's both to be expected and to be interpreted as a good thing. It means He's still paying attention. [/edit]
"I wasn't sleeping. I'm a beta-tester for Google Eyelids...I was just taking the opportunity to update my Facebook page." -- Morgan Freeman, accused of napping during a TV interview.
Nah, that's what the Prophet and the 12 Apostles are there for. Really big decisions like that have to come from the guy with the keys* to hear directly from the G-O-single-D.
*: 'keys' is a Mormon keyword (no pun intended) that means 'priesthood authority passed down from Jesus to Joseph and handed out in a hierarchical manner'. There are keys that ordinary priests** like me receive that let us do things like bless our friends and neighbors, and then there are the big, super rare keys that let you do things like heal the sick and talk to God.
**: 'priest' in Mormon terms simply means any baptized male that continues to be devout. We're all priests, and we can all give minor blessings, offer counsel, and so on.
Speaking of which, because I didn't miss the barb in that post, I just thought I should mention: God not being omniscient and all that, He totally does actually change his mind from time to time based on what He hears about us humans doing. So having judgments come down like "stop marrying seventy women at a time' and 'black people aren't evil anymore' is not only normal, but it's both to be expected and to be interpreted as a good thing. It means He's still paying attention.
So...I'm confused. You don't get to talk to God?
Nope. We can pray, and the Holy Ghost listens and takes our prayers to God, but we don't get to talk to him directly until (if we're really super good) we meet him in the Celestial Kingdom after the Second Coming...or something. I'm not too clear on that, but like I said, I'm a crappy Mormon.
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"I wasn't sleeping. I'm a beta-tester for Google Eyelids...I was just taking the opportunity to update my Facebook page." -- Morgan Freeman, accused of napping during a TV interview.
Hard to tell God that He's immoral, since he's kind of the source of the definitions of morality. But to your point, yes, I do actually believe that part of praying to God is questioning the scriptures and how they pertain to modern life.
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"I wasn't sleeping. I'm a beta-tester for Google Eyelids...I was just taking the opportunity to update my Facebook page." -- Morgan Freeman, accused of napping during a TV interview.
Hard to tell God that He's immoral, since he's kind of the source of the definitions of morality. But to your point, yes, I do actually believe that part of praying to God is questioning the scriptures and how they pertain to modern life.
Not necessarily, it depends on what horn of the dilemma you ascribe to.
It might be rather easy to call him immoral.
@Craig, I'm not going to apologize that to you what I said seemed an unsolvable riddle, I guess I overestimated you.
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“Thus strangely are our souls constructed, and by slight ligaments
are we bound to prosperity and ruin.”
― Mary Shelley, Frankenstein
Having established that I don't believe He's omniscient or omnipresent, I'm not sure why you'd assume He wouldn't want input on His decisions from the people He loves. Which is everyone.
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"I wasn't sleeping. I'm a beta-tester for Google Eyelids...I was just taking the opportunity to update my Facebook page." -- Morgan Freeman, accused of napping during a TV interview.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
Have you ever just spoken to them just because?
Prayer is like that. It isn't a wishing mechanism.
Look at the Lord's prayer. Most of it is worship and thanks rather than asking for something.
Well, if he's infallible and knew precisely why you are asking, why would he be?
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
This is an extremely profound question, one whose true answer lies at the heart of what it means to be a Christian, at least in my life.
It's answer reveals the incompleteness of broaching religion through a purely logical framework.
You're absolutely right. Prayer makes no sense to a God who is already omniscient. Even more nonsensical is that God wants us to pray to him, and that Jesus himself frequently prayed to God.
Prayer is a time of reflection, a moment of frankness of speaking between you and God. Apart from all the clamor of the day-to-day, apart from all the troubles of daily life, it is you speaking directly to God with full knowledge that every regret, every apprehension of yours is already known to him.
Christians usually pray when they're experiencing hard or difficult times, when they honestly and openly express that they don't have all the answers in life.
But it's that honesty and openness in prayer which paves the way for something more--a spirit of humility. It sets the heart of the person praying in the right attitude to be able to listen, earnestly, both to what you need and where you could have gone wrong.
The bible teaches this time and time again. But it's something I could never really understand while I was that atheist always raring to engage any Christian in debate.
On that attitude of humility the bible says "The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit and a contrite heart" psalm 51:17
Prayer sets that person up for change, both in attitude and clarifying in the mind of that person, what he or she needed in the first place.
Finally, prayer is an act of trust in God for the very best. When prayer is truly earnest, as it so often is when it comes during one's darkest hour of trial, that act of trust is a pretty deep act of faith on your part towards him. God knows that too, and he doesn't betray that trust.
Prayer starts off in reflection, leads to openness with God,
paving the way for one's own humility and a ready ear to listen, and ends with entrusting God with your request.
Now, they don't believe he is an interventionist, and they do believe everything is according to his "plan" and still use wishful prayer - then yeah that's something silly.
Then sometimes, they know their prayers are futile but are desperate enough to do it out of sheer hope (or hopelessness if you want to look at it that way).
Thanks to Xenphire @ Inkfox for the amazing new sig
“Thus strangely are our souls constructed, and by slight ligaments
are we bound to prosperity and ruin.”
― Mary Shelley, Frankenstein
Most of it, sure, but it still includes a request for God to make sure we get enough to eat...
I think what you meant to say was antioxidants. Or was it antibiotics?
Thanks to Xenphire @ Inkfox for the amazing new sig
“Thus strangely are our souls constructed, and by slight ligaments
are we bound to prosperity and ruin.”
― Mary Shelley, Frankenstein
Not without some evidence that prayer actually does anything.
Thanks to Xenphire @ Inkfox for the amazing new sig
“Thus strangely are our souls constructed, and by slight ligaments
are we bound to prosperity and ruin.”
― Mary Shelley, Frankenstein
You claimed that prayer purified the mind and body regardless of beliefs.
I (sarcastically) disagreed with that, stating that A) you must have meant something else like antibiotics, and B) there's no evidence that prayer works.
Then you agree with me, twice.
So either, you made your first statement knowing it was false (maybe you were being sarcastic to begin with); or you actually are confused about your own initial claim.
Thanks to Xenphire @ Inkfox for the amazing new sig
“Thus strangely are our souls constructed, and by slight ligaments
are we bound to prosperity and ruin.”
― Mary Shelley, Frankenstein
Re-read the post you just replied to. All your questions are answered there. Jesus tapdancing christ :/
Thanks to Xenphire @ Inkfox for the amazing new sig
“Thus strangely are our souls constructed, and by slight ligaments
are we bound to prosperity and ruin.”
― Mary Shelley, Frankenstein
1) The scriptures tell us to pray. Duh.
2) We have free will. Mormons call it 'agency'. We don't believe that God is actually omni-anything. He has a physical body, so He's not omnipresent. He relies on the Holy Spirit, which is omnipresent but isn't omniscient, for information, so He's not omniscient. Therefore, He doesn't necessarily know what's in our hearts or minds. Thus, for Mormons at least, praying to Heavenly Father is a vital part of maintaining our relationship with Him.
3) Telling God that all of the bullcrap that's happening in and to my life is in His hands and that I trust Him to keep me at least safe and hopefully happy makes me feel better and keeps my attitude more positive (in a way that sex absolutely can't.)
Pretty simple.
Wit and wisdom from my four-year-old son. Recommended for anyone who enjoys a good belly laugh.
If I'm speaking to my parents I'm usually trying to elicit a response. Prayer is probably more akin to talking to yourself..or a rock.
There's likely some placebo effect involved with praying. It's totally silly and illogical but even the silly and illogical can have their benefits.
You originally made a claim that <Prayer> (purified) the mind and body, regardless of beliefs.
~to which I alluded - don't you mean <antioxidants/antibiotics>, as in, things that have actually been proven to (purify) the body regardless of whether you believe they will work or not. You replied that you agreed with me, which is counter to your original claim.
Then you claimed that we can view <prayer> in the same manner with which we view <antibiotics/antioxidants>.
~to which I replied, not without evidence that <prayer> does anything which was a rather obvious implication on my part that there was no evidence prayer did anything. Again you agreed with me, which is counter to your original claim.
So do you believe <prayer> (purifies) or not? Because by agreeing with my statements, it would appear that you don't, which is counter to the claims that you are trying to make in this thread.
All of this of course can be easily deciphered with a minimum of reading comprehension from my post #12.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=10389479&postcount=12
Thanks to Xenphire @ Inkfox for the amazing new sig
“Thus strangely are our souls constructed, and by slight ligaments
are we bound to prosperity and ruin.”
― Mary Shelley, Frankenstein
4) You need to be ready in case he decides to tell you that he's changed his mind and black people suck again.
*: 'keys' is a Mormon keyword (no pun intended) that means 'priesthood authority passed down from Jesus to Joseph and handed out in a hierarchical manner'. There are keys that ordinary priests** like me receive that let us do things like bless our friends and neighbors, and then there are the big, super rare keys that let you do things like heal the sick and talk to God.
**: 'priest' in Mormon terms simply means any baptized male that continues to be devout. We're all priests, and we can all give minor blessings, offer counsel, and so on.
[edit]Speaking of which, because I didn't miss the barb in that post, I just thought I should mention: God not being omniscient and all that, He totally does actually change his mind from time to time based on what He hears about us humans doing. So having judgments come down like "stop marrying seventy women at a time' and 'black people aren't evil anymore' is not only normal, but it's both to be expected and to be interpreted as a good thing. It means He's still paying attention. [/edit]
Wit and wisdom from my four-year-old son. Recommended for anyone who enjoys a good belly laugh.
So...I'm confused. You don't get to talk to God?
Poor Mormons..they catch so much *warranted* flack.
Speaking of which, because I didn't miss the barb in that post, I just thought I should mention: God not being omniscient and all that, He totally does actually change his mind from time to time based on what He hears about us humans doing. So having judgments come down like "stop marrying seventy women at a time' and 'black people aren't evil anymore' is not only normal, but it's both to be expected and to be interpreted as a good thing. It means He's still paying attention.
Nope. We can pray, and the Holy Ghost listens and takes our prayers to God, but we don't get to talk to him directly until (if we're really super good) we meet him in the Celestial Kingdom after the Second Coming...or something. I'm not too clear on that, but like I said, I'm a crappy Mormon.
Wit and wisdom from my four-year-old son. Recommended for anyone who enjoys a good belly laugh.
Maybe the point of prayer is to tell god that he's an immoral monster and hope he cleans up his act?
Wit and wisdom from my four-year-old son. Recommended for anyone who enjoys a good belly laugh.
Not necessarily, it depends on what horn of the dilemma you ascribe to.
It might be rather easy to call him immoral.
@Craig, I'm not going to apologize that to you what I said seemed an unsolvable riddle, I guess I overestimated you.
Thanks to Xenphire @ Inkfox for the amazing new sig
“Thus strangely are our souls constructed, and by slight ligaments
are we bound to prosperity and ruin.”
― Mary Shelley, Frankenstein
I pray because I see a benefit to doing it.
The same reason you choose to do the things you do. You see a benefit of doing it.
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Having established that I don't believe He's omniscient or omnipresent, I'm not sure why you'd assume He wouldn't want input on His decisions from the people He loves. Which is everyone.
Wit and wisdom from my four-year-old son. Recommended for anyone who enjoys a good belly laugh.