I had a brush with solipsism, and it got me thinking....can we really be certain that the things around us exist and are real? If they aren't then why bother trying to do anything or accomplish anything in an imaginary world then? Why treat the people as you would if they were real? What if they were imaginary? Then the whole rule of ethics and morality does not apply to them at all. Those that one knew as friends or family are just imaginary objects. How could one possibly feel anything at all for an illusory figure. Living life in a sense becomes a waste of time, since everything is imaginary then any sort of achievement you would have done is null and void since you technically did not "do" anything.
Granted that is if it is true, but it seems to me that Solipsism being true is essentially the same thing as death. I know that most would say that one cannot know for sure and just leave it at that, but how? How can one possibly ignore a theory that would be so destructive to one's mind and senses if proven true? How does one live with that notion in their mind each day? Never knowing the answer and not being able to. How does one reconcile that with science and the other rules to live by?
I guess I'm trying to get at how one lives with uncertainty like that since philosophy doesn't seem to give a definitive answer to questions, and yet it's supposed to be the pursuit of wisdom (especially asking things like "what is reality"). Sorry about the title, was just trying to find the right words for this.
I had a brush with solipsism, and it got me thinking....can we really be certain that the things around us exist and are real?
No.
If they aren't then why bother trying to do anything or accomplish anything in an imaginary world then?
Well, I could point out that you play a game in which you summon imaginary creatures which are really just cardboard and seem to have an enjoyable enough time doing that.
I know that most would say that one cannot know for sure and just leave it at that, but how? How can one possibly ignore a theory that would be so destructive to one's mind and senses if proven true? How does one live with that notion in their mind each day? Never knowing the answer and not being able to. How does one reconcile that with science and the other rules to live by?
I don't think you should ignore it, but I'm also not sure how useful it is to spend your time worrying about something that might be true without you having any reason to believe it is.
It just seems to me that the implications of such an idea being true are so bad that how can one not crumble under it?
Also it's one thing when you are doing it in a game and pretending things to be real, but it's another point entirely when everything you know could be imaginary. How do you function under that?
So far the only information that might hint at it being so are the act of dreaming, that our memory is fallible, and that our senses are not only imperfect but can be fooled by various illusions.
Also it's one thing when you are doing it in a game and pretending things to be real, but it's another point entirely when everything you know could be imaginary. How do you function under that?
Is it really such a difference? Or does the game (of life) just want you to think that?
It just seems to me that the implications of such an idea being true are so bad that how can one not crumble under it?
But you don't know if it's true. And from this:
So far the only information that might hint at it being so are the act of dreaming, that our memory is fallible, and that our senses are not only imperfect but can be fooled by various illusions.
We can conclude you have no reason to think it's any more true than the world being real.
Your second reply really doesn't address the evidence I listed for things being illusory. Nor does it address the point I am trying to get at (none of your words do really).
I'm saying that given such a possibility, how can people not crumble underneath it? How can they just act like nothing is wrong when they can't know which situation is true one way or the other? Even if you did "wake up" from this illusion (if it was an illusion), you cannot be sure that what you wake to is any more real than where you previously were.
How can people live with the uncertainty about such a thing that serves as the foundation for everything else in their lives? If it ends up being imaginary than what of your accomplishments and friends? Neither truly existed to begin with, and there is no reason to treat illusory people in the same manner as real ones. Any emotions or feelings such people would have would not matter because they aren't real, it's like a character in a game saying that to you. It means nothing.
Given how bad such a possibility would be, how can people do anything at all if they cannot know one way or the other?
Some people don't think like that. The thought literally never occurs to them.
As for those that do, some do crumble under the pressure. Like, the whole "Things Man Was Not Meant To Know" trope has a small origin in such a thing.
But, the flip side is: If everything is imaginary, then your actions literally define the world. So the world becomes whatever you wish to make of it. You are the only one that "matters" in that mindset. That can lead to some good or bad things, depending on the person. But you're still interacting with something, even if it's just a part of yourself. And ya know, treat others as you'd treat yourself and all that.
Additionally, let's say that you know for 100% certainty that everything around you is as real as you are. There would still be an infinite amount of things you wouldn't know. Maybe this is the day the sun blows up. Maybe this is the day you find out you've had a long-lost relative. Maybe today you get mugged. Maybe this is the day you save someone's life. There's so much possibility for change out there in the world, and change can be as terrifying as it is enthralling. People have those same uncertainties every day, and yet: Life happens. People go out and live, knowing all the dangers. It doesn't cripple them any more than the knowledge that it might all be a dream.
And this is the pessimist in me, but I have a significant amount of trouble believing that anyone is so intelligent as to create a couple billion avatars that interact with each other in both micro and macrocosms, discovering the science behind things that they've never once examined; creating art in every genre and form; having debates with themselves about that previously mentioned science; pioneering any number of governmental, economic, and religious systems; and doing it all over the course of millenia.
It seems far more likely that if it's all imaginary, then so is the one claiming it.
Which makes you equal in the sense of the imaginary.
And in the end, if you don't think the long-term effects of your actions are impactful, then it doesn't hurt to try. Just maximize short-term with consideration for long-term.
I'm saying that given such a possibility, how can people not crumble underneath it?
Why would this make people crumble? How could the mere possibility cause this?
How can they just act like nothing is wrong when they can't know which situation is true one way or the other?
Why would you act as if something is wrong when you don't know if anything is wrong. Isn't this the definition of paranioa?
Even if you did "wake up" from this illusion (if it was an illusion), you cannot be sure that what you wake to is any more real than where you previously were.
If this were to ever happen I could see why you would suddenly crumble but until such an event why would you live assuming that this could happen at any moment?
How can people live with the uncertainty about such a thing that serves as the foundation for everything else in their lives?
The same way people ignore everything else that contradicts their current preferred vision of life. Ignore it or assume it is wrong due to lack of proof(even if proof exists)
If it ends up being imaginary than what of your accomplishments and friends?
We already spend countless hours on imaginary goals so why would the revelation that the other goals we were working on being imaginary harm us?
Neither truly existed to begin with, and there is no reason to treat illusory people in the same manner as real ones.
Why? There is no reason to treat imaginary people any worse(or really any different at all) than real people. Take the internet, I can't prove you are a real person but I'm attempting to hold a conversation with you and I'm in fact far more polite than in 'real' life.
Any emotions or feelings such people would have would not matter because they aren't real, it's like a character in a game saying that to you. It means nothing.
Don't discount peoples ability to form emotional bonds with imaginary characters. People wept for days when Aeris died. You can substitute Aeris for a multitude of fictional characters. A character being fictional/imaginary/not real has never stopped a vast number of people from forming very strong very 'real' bonds with them. People even form bonds with their smart phone AI.
Given how bad such a possibility would be, how can people do anything at all if they cannot know one way or the other?
First, is such a possibility that bad? I haven't seen anything even suggesting that such a fact would be any kind of net negative. But lets assume that this is some life shattering theory, how do we live with it? Its really simple. You can live fearing the worse case scenario or you can live. If irrational fear keeps you from doing things then there is nothing people can do for you.
It seems rather rational. I mean you cannot know whether this is real or not, so your whole life could be a lie and you don't even know it is. We don't work on imaginary goal because the ones we have (assuming we aren't talking about a game) can cause real change and difference in the world. Having it being imaginary makes it rather futile to attempt to do anything. In short, if it was true then it would render life utterly meaningless and not worth living. The fear seems rather justified since no one wants to feel like they are running on a hamster wheel their whole life.
The point about imaginary people is that they have no feelings or any of the things that people do, so there is no reason to treat them as real. You can treat them however you want since there is no consequences which is the main reason we treat people as real (because there is a punishment for doing otherwise).
Even though people make bonds with fictional characters, they still ultimately mean nothing (even though they refuse to accept that fact). Plus I tend to regard anyone who does that as soft in the head.
And from what I have gathered, the possibility is that bad. It makes life pointless to live anymore. When the worst case scenario is that everything you do is futile and useless then it seems rather justified that one should fear it being true. That those who don't are simply unable to grasp the implications of such a thing,
Some people don't think like that. The thought literally never occurs to them.
As for those that do, some do crumble under the pressure. Like, the whole "Things Man Was Not Meant To Know" trope has a small origin in such a thing.
But, the flip side is: If everything is imaginary, then your actions literally define the world. So the world becomes whatever you wish to make of it. You are the only one that "matters" in that mindset. That can lead to some good or bad things, depending on the person. But you're still interacting with something, even if it's just a part of yourself. And ya know, treat others as you'd treat yourself and all that.
Additionally, let's say that you know for 100% certainty that everything around you is as real as you are. There would still be an infinite amount of things you wouldn't know. Maybe this is the day the sun blows up. Maybe this is the day you find out you've had a long-lost relative. Maybe today you get mugged. Maybe this is the day you save someone's life. There's so much possibility for change out there in the world, and change can be as terrifying as it is enthralling. People have those same uncertainties every day, and yet: Life happens. People go out and live, knowing all the dangers. It doesn't cripple them any more than the knowledge that it might all be a dream.
And this is the pessimist in me, but I have a significant amount of trouble believing that anyone is so intelligent as to create a couple billion avatars that interact with each other in both micro and macrocosms, discovering the science behind things that they've never once examined; creating art in every genre and form; having debates with themselves about that previously mentioned science; pioneering any number of governmental, economic, and religious systems; and doing it all over the course of millenia.
It seems far more likely that if it's all imaginary, then so is the one claiming it.
Which makes you equal in the sense of the imaginary.
And in the end, if you don't think the long-term effects of your actions are impactful, then it doesn't hurt to try. Just maximize short-term with consideration for long-term.
Except when that single possibility threatens to unravel everything you believed in up to that point and leaves you with nothing to cope with it, then it becomes crippling. You are mistaken in that people don't think about any of those possibilities. If they did then they would hardly get anything done. They don't know all the dangers, they just assume that they will be fine the next day. I think you are overestimating the general population. Not like they can comprehend the implications of everything being a dream.
It seems rather rational. I mean you cannot know whether this is real or not, so your whole life could be a lie and you don't even know it is. We don't work on imaginary goal because the ones we have (assuming we aren't talking about a game) can cause real change and difference in the world. Having it being imaginary makes it rather futile to attempt to do anything. In short, if it was true then it would render life utterly meaningless and not worth living. The fear seems rather justified since no one wants to feel like they are running on a hamster wheel their whole life.
Your stance is
Everything MIGHT be a lie. And thus your entire life should come to a stop because if it isn't real whats the point and if it is real, are you sure it's real?
How is this rational? Even if we assume that both sides are equally likely, you are proposing living as though the worse side is the absolute truth and the other one is unlikely. This is paranoia, it is irrational at its foundation.
Even if everything is a lie so what? How is things be imaginary make everything pointless? You haven't given a good reason to live as though it is a lie rather than assume it is real. While the reason to live as though it isn't a lie is fairly good. Crippling fear of the worst case isn't really rational.
The point about imaginary people is that they have no feelings or any of the things that people do, so there is no reason to treat them as real. You can treat them however you want since there is no consequences which is the main reason we treat people as real (because there is a punishment for doing otherwise).
For imaginary people and their feelings. Are we talking figments of our own or someones else's imagination? Or advanced AI's? Either way why do they not have feelings? Why don't their feelings matter? As I said already I can't be certain you are in fact real and yet I am assuming you have feelings and am treating you far nicer than the people I interact with physically on a daily basis.
Even though people make bonds with fictional characters, they still ultimately mean nothing (even though they refuse to accept that fact). Plus I tend to regard anyone who does that as soft in the head.
Why do you get to decide that these people's feelings don't matter? What gives you the authority to disregard the reality they live? Especially when you currently fear living in a similar reality?
And from what I have gathered, the possibility is that bad. It makes life pointless to live anymore. When the worst case scenario is that everything you do is futile and useless then it seems rather justified that one should fear it being true. That those who don't are simply unable to grasp the implications of such a thing,
So the worst case scenario is everything in your life is futile and useless means don't do anything. Instead lets say the worse case scenario is if you do anything you will die(This is a real worst case scenario), however if you don't do anything you will die(again a real worst case scenario). Looking at the world like this everything being imaginary is no worse than the worst case if everything is real.
Except when that single possibility threatens to unravel everything you believed in up to that point and leaves you with nothing to cope with it, then it becomes crippling. You are mistaken in that people don't think about any of those possibilities. If they did then they would hardly get anything done. They don't know all the dangers, they just assume that they will be fine the next day. I think you are overestimating the general population. Not like they can comprehend the implications of everything being a dream.
It seems to me like this line of thinking is leading you to believe yourself better than others. Might wanna be careful there, buddy.
If you're really so afraid that this is all a dream, consider the equally important question of "What if it isn't?"
Except when that single possibility threatens to unravel everything you believed in up to that point and leaves you with nothing to cope with it, then it becomes crippling. You are mistaken in that people don't think about any of those possibilities. If they did then they would hardly get anything done. They don't know all the dangers, they just assume that they will be fine the next day. I think you are overestimating the general population. Not like they can comprehend the implications of everything being a dream.
It seems to me like this line of thinking is leading you to believe yourself better than others. Might wanna be careful there, buddy.
If you're really so afraid that this is all a dream, consider the equally important question of "What if it isn't?"
Except this line of thinking is the reality, and I can't turn away just because I don't like it.
The possibility of this being real is a moot point since the problem is not knowing it isn't.
It seems rather rational. I mean you cannot know whether this is real or not, so your whole life could be a lie and you don't even know it is. We don't work on imaginary goal because the ones we have (assuming we aren't talking about a game) can cause real change and difference in the world. Having it being imaginary makes it rather futile to attempt to do anything. In short, if it was true then it would render life utterly meaningless and not worth living. The fear seems rather justified since no one wants to feel like they are running on a hamster wheel their whole life.
Your stance is
Everything MIGHT be a lie. And thus your entire life should come to a stop because if it isn't real whats the point and if it is real, are you sure it's real?
How is this rational? Even if we assume that both sides are equally likely, you are proposing living as though the worse side is the absolute truth and the other one is unlikely. This is paranoia, it is irrational at its foundation.
Even if everything is a lie so what? How is things be imaginary make everything pointless? You haven't given a good reason to live as though it is a lie rather than assume it is real. While the reason to live as though it isn't a lie is fairly good. Crippling fear of the worst case isn't really rational.
The point about imaginary people is that they have no feelings or any of the things that people do, so there is no reason to treat them as real. You can treat them however you want since there is no consequences which is the main reason we treat people as real (because there is a punishment for doing otherwise).
For imaginary people and their feelings. Are we talking figments of our own or someones else's imagination? Or advanced AI's? Either way why do they not have feelings? Why don't their feelings matter? As I said already I can't be certain you are in fact real and yet I am assuming you have feelings and am treating you far nicer than the people I interact with physically on a daily basis.
Even though people make bonds with fictional characters, they still ultimately mean nothing (even though they refuse to accept that fact). Plus I tend to regard anyone who does that as soft in the head.
Why do you get to decide that these people's feelings don't matter? What gives you the authority to disregard the reality they live? Especially when you currently fear living in a similar reality?
And from what I have gathered, the possibility is that bad. It makes life pointless to live anymore. When the worst case scenario is that everything you do is futile and useless then it seems rather justified that one should fear it being true. That those who don't are simply unable to grasp the implications of such a thing,
So the worst case scenario is everything in your life is futile and useless means don't do anything. Instead lets say the worse case scenario is if you do anything you will die(This is a real worst case scenario), however if you don't do anything you will die(again a real worst case scenario). Looking at the world like this everything being imaginary is no worse than the worst case if everything is real.
The point is that living as though it is a lie means you would not have wasted any effort or time feeding into an illusion. It's a "safe" response. It's not paranoid at all, although I wish it was. It's taking the surest precautions you have available. There is nothing worse for humans than the feeling that they have wasted their lives, even death is preferable to that. It is rational to prepare for the worst case scenario, you should know that. This would entail living as such.
Your worst case scenario isn't bad at all. It would be a relief for some actually. The one I have presented is far worse because you are in a reality where nothing you do has any real impact and your efforts are truly fruitless. It's like being dead in the sense, but far worse since you are aware of the waste of your life.
Imaginary things don't have feelings, by definition. They have to exist for that to occur. Your feelings for imaginary characters don't mean anything because the object of those feelings is nonexistent. That's just how it is.
The "safe" option is just living your life as though it's real, because if you're working at things that make you happy and bettering oneself, then real or not you've improved, at the very least, your perception of yourself. And if you wake up and your new reality is disappointing, then you gave yourself something to aspire to. It's only a waste if you waste it.
Man, why is it that when people ask these questions, it's always "What if everyone else is fake, and I'm the only real one?" They never ask if they're the fakes or the imagined.
If your reality is fictional, then whatever your body tells you is also a falsehood, because dream you is no more real than the people around you. You can safely ignore hunger, and thirst, and relief in all of its forms. Any emotion you've ever had is a falsehood, irrelevant in the face of creation. Your joy with gaming constructs? Irrelevant. Your sadness for loss? Irrelevant. Your anxiety at the perception of reality? Irrelevant. Because, per your own definition, you are emotionally reacting to and bonding with a fictional world, and all of the fictional things in it, which makes you soft in the head.
Honestly, it just kinda feels like you're asking these questions because you want to feel like you matter in a species 7 billion strong, and the life you're currently living isn't providing that for you.
The point is that living as though it is a lie means you would not have wasted any effort or time feeding into an illusion. It's a "safe" response. It's not paranoid at all, although I wish it was. It's taking the surest precautions you have available. There is nothing worse for humans than the feeling that they have wasted their lives, even death is preferable to that. It is rational to prepare for the worst case scenario, you should know that. This would entail living as such.
Your worst case scenario isn't bad at all. It would be a relief for some actually. The one I have presented is far worse because you are in a reality where nothing you do has any real impact and your efforts are truly fruitless. It's like being dead in the sense, but far worse since you are aware of the waste of your life.
Imaginary things don't have feelings, by definition. They have to exist for that to occur. Your feelings for imaginary characters don't mean anything because the object of those feelings is nonexistent. That's just how it is.
Ok, lets look at the simplified versions.
Scenario A - All of reality is an illusion
Option A - Do nothing __ You have stated this is the optimal stance so you waste nothing.
Option B - Live your life as though it is in fact real __ I take this stance because it is the most optimal after all if nothing is real you can't waste anything
Scenario B - The world is in fact real
Option A - Do nothing __ You have taken this stance out of fear and it has the most horrible out come you yourself has stated, "nothing you do matters because you did nothing"
Option B - Live your life __ I have taken this stance due to the unlimited amount of upside with literally zero downside.
So if you're right then there is no difference between our choices. If I'm right you have forced your own worst case upon yourself.
How can you defend this as rational? The safe response is assume that reality exist because that is the only one with negative outcomes.
You have yet to present a case for assuming you're right, either as the more likely truth or as hedging your bet. In addition you have not proven your worst case is in fact bad at all. You have failed to present an argument beyond personal melancholy and have met each counter argument with the equivelent of "I can't consider the possibility I'm wrong so you are wrong."
The point is that living as though it is a lie means you would not have wasted any effort or time feeding into an illusion. It's a "safe" response. It's not paranoid at all, although I wish it was. It's taking the surest precautions you have available. There is nothing worse for humans than the feeling that they have wasted their lives, even death is preferable to that. It is rational to prepare for the worst case scenario, you should know that. This would entail living as such.
Your worst case scenario isn't bad at all. It would be a relief for some actually. The one I have presented is far worse because you are in a reality where nothing you do has any real impact and your efforts are truly fruitless. It's like being dead in the sense, but far worse since you are aware of the waste of your life.
Imaginary things don't have feelings, by definition. They have to exist for that to occur. Your feelings for imaginary characters don't mean anything because the object of those feelings is nonexistent. That's just how it is.
Ok, lets look at the simplified versions.
Scenario A - All of reality is an illusion
Option A - Do nothing __ You have stated this is the optimal stance so you waste nothing.
Option B - Live your life as though it is in fact real __ I take this stance because it is the most optimal after all if nothing is real you can't waste anything
Scenario B - The world is in fact real
Option A - Do nothing __ You have taken this stance out of fear and it has the most horrible out come you yourself has stated, "nothing you do matters because you did nothing"
Option B - Live your life __ I have taken this stance due to the unlimited amount of upside with literally zero downside.
So if you're right then there is no difference between our choices. If I'm right you have forced your own worst case upon yourself.
How can you defend this as rational? The safe response is assume that reality exist because that is the only one with negative outcomes.
You have yet to present a case for assuming you're right, either as the more likely truth or as hedging your bet. In addition you have not proven your worst case is in fact bad at all. You have failed to present an argument beyond personal melancholy and have met each counter argument with the equivelent of "I can't consider the possibility I'm wrong so you are wrong."
The first thing I thought of when I read the OP was Pascal's wager. And while the wager doesn't offer proof one way or the other it does address the questions in the OP. Specifically that the reason to believe in reality is that it offers infinite gain.
But, let's say that that the only thing that exists is one persona and everything else is a figment of that personas imagination. Well, aside from me being difficult and asking so what, does it actually change anything? If the person reading this is the persona and then decides that they are through with this existence and want to create a new one, does that mean anything to me? If I am part of the existence of that persona, it only means something to me if that persona wants it to. So, if you are the persona, you're living the high life. Whatever you imagine is existence, sounds quite frightening like a deity. On the other hand if say you are one of the imagined who has been given enough enlightenment to have a semblance of a self contained consciousness that has let their mind get the best of them and found themself in an irrational, fatalistic state of paranoia, then I guess your life is pretty bad.
When the persona responsible for my existence reads this, please read my mind. I have a few changes I would like implemented.
Your second reply really doesn't address the evidence I listed for things being illusory.
You have none. You had no evidence to point out that reality is illusory. You only have the fact that we cannot disprove that it is. That's it.
I stated how dreams can feel real and the fact that there are many sensory illusions that can deceive the senses (optical, auditory, temperature, etc). That's reason enough to doubt whether what we see and experience is actually real.
The "safe" option is just living your life as though it's real, because if you're working at things that make you happy and bettering oneself, then real or not you've improved, at the very least, your perception of yourself. And if you wake up and your new reality is disappointing, then you gave yourself something to aspire to. It's only a waste if you waste it.
Man, why is it that when people ask these questions, it's always "What if everyone else is fake, and I'm the only real one?" They never ask if they're the fakes or the imagined.
If your reality is fictional, then whatever your body tells you is also a falsehood, because dream you is no more real than the people around you. You can safely ignore hunger, and thirst, and relief in all of its forms. Any emotion you've ever had is a falsehood, irrelevant in the face of creation. Your joy with gaming constructs? Irrelevant. Your sadness for loss? Irrelevant. Your anxiety at the perception of reality? Irrelevant. Because, per your own definition, you are emotionally reacting to and bonding with a fictional world, and all of the fictional things in it, which makes you soft in the head.
Honestly, it just kinda feels like you're asking these questions because you want to feel like you matter in a species 7 billion strong, and the life you're currently living isn't providing that for you.
Somehow the position that I might be fake or imagined isn't troublesome. I'm not doing this because I want to, but so far I cannot find a way to definitively put this argument to bed since I cannot prove either side. The argument from ignorance can go both ways on this one. It feels like a shot in the dark on what is essentially the foundation for how I experience and interact with the rest of this reality.
I don't understand how the safe option is to treat it as though it is real. It seems like that is taking a risk that would lead to wasted effort, even if everything else is illusory it is still possible to waste your energy and your efforts. You would not have improved at anything since anything you would have done in that world would not count, it just disappeared in smoke. All the investments you made into things that didn't ultimately exist would make one then doubt whether it is worth it to do the same thing again lest you end up risking it all being illusory and wasting your effort again. It would just continue to build upon itself. To treat this as reality is to take a risk, to do otherwise is to be safe. Because if you did nothing, and it turns out to be false and fake, then you don't lose anything. Losing nothing is far better then believing you had something and to then losing it because the reality is that it never existed.
Doing nothing is the safest response because you don't invest in anything and therefor cannot lose anything. The response you are putting forth is risky with a huge negative outcome, one that I believe most people would not risk at all. Worse then death is the feeling that everything you ever did never existed. I know you would equate death with that, but the difference is that with death (as far as I know) you won't be aware of any of it.
So you aren't offering a safe option, but a huge risk with a relatively moderate reward but with a huge downfall. Even I know that's not a logical thing to do. That's the sort of choice a gambler makes.
Doing nothing isn't really a choice though, because you physically cannot do nothing. Your body has needs, and you will have to interact with people up fill those needs. Doing nothing is choosing reality as real and doing your best to not enjoy any of it.
So if the choice is live in reality, why add the addendum of "always be miserable?"
EDIT: Also, better to have lived and lost then never live at all.
I stated how dreams can feel real and the fact that there are many sensory illusions that can deceive the senses (optical, auditory, temperature, etc). That's reason enough to doubt whether what we see and experience is actually real.
No, it's not. That's reason to acknowledge the possibility that what we are perceiving is unreal, but thusfar you have given nothing that would point to things being real over things not being real.
You've nothing to point to the world not being real. Only the inability to prove that it isn't, otherwise known as the ability to prove a negative, which lends no credibility because that's true about virtually anything.
And if that's all you have, then basically what you're saying is that you're just going to worry about everything that could have the slightest possibility of being real, even if that possibility is infinitesimal, even if you have no evidence or reason to think it would be true.
That's not wisdom or rationality, mate, that's called an anxiety disorder.
And hell, if you're going to worry about stuff no matter how slight the probability might be, I would worry about quantum mechanics. There's a nonzero chance I could blink out of existence, fall through the floor, turn into a bowl of tapioca pudding. Fantastically unlikely, but it *could* happen.
Doing nothing is the safest response because you don't invest in anything and therefor cannot lose anything.
Yeah, ok, do nothing. For the rest of your existence. See how well that works out for you. But hey, at least you didn't lose anything in the mix, right? (Now would be a good time to review the definition of the phrase "opportunity cost")
I had a brush with solipsism, and it got me thinking....can we really be certain that the things around us exist and are real? If they aren't then why bother trying to do anything or accomplish anything in an imaginary world then? Why treat the people as you would if they were real? What if they were imaginary? Then the whole rule of ethics and morality does not apply to them at all. Those that one knew as friends or family are just imaginary objects. How could one possibly feel anything at all for an illusory figure. Living life in a sense becomes a waste of time, since everything is imaginary then any sort of achievement you would have done is null and void since you technically did not "do" anything.
Granted that is if it is true, but it seems to me that Solipsism being true is essentially the same thing as death. I know that most would say that one cannot know for sure and just leave it at that, but how? How can one possibly ignore a theory that would be so destructive to one's mind and senses if proven true? How does one live with that notion in their mind each day? Never knowing the answer and not being able to. How does one reconcile that with science and the other rules to live by?
I guess I'm trying to get at how one lives with uncertainty like that since philosophy doesn't seem to give a definitive answer to questions, and yet it's supposed to be the pursuit of wisdom (especially asking things like "what is reality"). Sorry about the title, was just trying to find the right words for this.
Spirits
Well, I could point out that you play a game in which you summon imaginary creatures which are really just cardboard and seem to have an enjoyable enough time doing that.
I don't think you should ignore it, but I'm also not sure how useful it is to spend your time worrying about something that might be true without you having any reason to believe it is.
Also it's one thing when you are doing it in a game and pretending things to be real, but it's another point entirely when everything you know could be imaginary. How do you function under that?
So far the only information that might hint at it being so are the act of dreaming, that our memory is fallible, and that our senses are not only imperfect but can be fooled by various illusions.
Is it really such a difference? Or does the game (of life) just want you to think that?
We can conclude you have no reason to think it's any more true than the world being real.
I'm saying that given such a possibility, how can people not crumble underneath it? How can they just act like nothing is wrong when they can't know which situation is true one way or the other? Even if you did "wake up" from this illusion (if it was an illusion), you cannot be sure that what you wake to is any more real than where you previously were.
How can people live with the uncertainty about such a thing that serves as the foundation for everything else in their lives? If it ends up being imaginary than what of your accomplishments and friends? Neither truly existed to begin with, and there is no reason to treat illusory people in the same manner as real ones. Any emotions or feelings such people would have would not matter because they aren't real, it's like a character in a game saying that to you. It means nothing.
Given how bad such a possibility would be, how can people do anything at all if they cannot know one way or the other?
As for those that do, some do crumble under the pressure. Like, the whole "Things Man Was Not Meant To Know" trope has a small origin in such a thing.
But, the flip side is: If everything is imaginary, then your actions literally define the world. So the world becomes whatever you wish to make of it. You are the only one that "matters" in that mindset. That can lead to some good or bad things, depending on the person. But you're still interacting with something, even if it's just a part of yourself. And ya know, treat others as you'd treat yourself and all that.
Additionally, let's say that you know for 100% certainty that everything around you is as real as you are. There would still be an infinite amount of things you wouldn't know. Maybe this is the day the sun blows up. Maybe this is the day you find out you've had a long-lost relative. Maybe today you get mugged. Maybe this is the day you save someone's life. There's so much possibility for change out there in the world, and change can be as terrifying as it is enthralling. People have those same uncertainties every day, and yet: Life happens. People go out and live, knowing all the dangers. It doesn't cripple them any more than the knowledge that it might all be a dream.
And this is the pessimist in me, but I have a significant amount of trouble believing that anyone is so intelligent as to create a couple billion avatars that interact with each other in both micro and macrocosms, discovering the science behind things that they've never once examined; creating art in every genre and form; having debates with themselves about that previously mentioned science; pioneering any number of governmental, economic, and religious systems; and doing it all over the course of millenia.
It seems far more likely that if it's all imaginary, then so is the one claiming it.
Which makes you equal in the sense of the imaginary.
And in the end, if you don't think the long-term effects of your actions are impactful, then it doesn't hurt to try. Just maximize short-term with consideration for long-term.
Why would this make people crumble? How could the mere possibility cause this?
Why would you act as if something is wrong when you don't know if anything is wrong. Isn't this the definition of paranioa? If this were to ever happen I could see why you would suddenly crumble but until such an event why would you live assuming that this could happen at any moment?
The same way people ignore everything else that contradicts their current preferred vision of life. Ignore it or assume it is wrong due to lack of proof(even if proof exists)
We already spend countless hours on imaginary goals so why would the revelation that the other goals we were working on being imaginary harm us? Why? There is no reason to treat imaginary people any worse(or really any different at all) than real people. Take the internet, I can't prove you are a real person but I'm attempting to hold a conversation with you and I'm in fact far more polite than in 'real' life. Don't discount peoples ability to form emotional bonds with imaginary characters. People wept for days when Aeris died. You can substitute Aeris for a multitude of fictional characters. A character being fictional/imaginary/not real has never stopped a vast number of people from forming very strong very 'real' bonds with them. People even form bonds with their smart phone AI.
First, is such a possibility that bad? I haven't seen anything even suggesting that such a fact would be any kind of net negative. But lets assume that this is some life shattering theory, how do we live with it? Its really simple. You can live fearing the worse case scenario or you can live. If irrational fear keeps you from doing things then there is nothing people can do for you.
The point about imaginary people is that they have no feelings or any of the things that people do, so there is no reason to treat them as real. You can treat them however you want since there is no consequences which is the main reason we treat people as real (because there is a punishment for doing otherwise).
Even though people make bonds with fictional characters, they still ultimately mean nothing (even though they refuse to accept that fact). Plus I tend to regard anyone who does that as soft in the head.
And from what I have gathered, the possibility is that bad. It makes life pointless to live anymore. When the worst case scenario is that everything you do is futile and useless then it seems rather justified that one should fear it being true. That those who don't are simply unable to grasp the implications of such a thing,
Except when that single possibility threatens to unravel everything you believed in up to that point and leaves you with nothing to cope with it, then it becomes crippling. You are mistaken in that people don't think about any of those possibilities. If they did then they would hardly get anything done. They don't know all the dangers, they just assume that they will be fine the next day. I think you are overestimating the general population. Not like they can comprehend the implications of everything being a dream.
Your stance is How is this rational? Even if we assume that both sides are equally likely, you are proposing living as though the worse side is the absolute truth and the other one is unlikely. This is paranoia, it is irrational at its foundation.
Even if everything is a lie so what? How is things be imaginary make everything pointless? You haven't given a good reason to live as though it is a lie rather than assume it is real. While the reason to live as though it isn't a lie is fairly good. Crippling fear of the worst case isn't really rational.
For imaginary people and their feelings. Are we talking figments of our own or someones else's imagination? Or advanced AI's? Either way why do they not have feelings? Why don't their feelings matter? As I said already I can't be certain you are in fact real and yet I am assuming you have feelings and am treating you far nicer than the people I interact with physically on a daily basis.
Why do you get to decide that these people's feelings don't matter? What gives you the authority to disregard the reality they live? Especially when you currently fear living in a similar reality?
So the worst case scenario is everything in your life is futile and useless means don't do anything. Instead lets say the worse case scenario is if you do anything you will die(This is a real worst case scenario), however if you don't do anything you will die(again a real worst case scenario). Looking at the world like this everything being imaginary is no worse than the worst case if everything is real.
It seems to me like this line of thinking is leading you to believe yourself better than others. Might wanna be careful there, buddy.
If you're really so afraid that this is all a dream, consider the equally important question of "What if it isn't?"
Or even the question of "What if what is outside the dream is worse?"
Except this line of thinking is the reality, and I can't turn away just because I don't like it.
The possibility of this being real is a moot point since the problem is not knowing it isn't.
The point is that living as though it is a lie means you would not have wasted any effort or time feeding into an illusion. It's a "safe" response. It's not paranoid at all, although I wish it was. It's taking the surest precautions you have available. There is nothing worse for humans than the feeling that they have wasted their lives, even death is preferable to that. It is rational to prepare for the worst case scenario, you should know that. This would entail living as such.
Your worst case scenario isn't bad at all. It would be a relief for some actually. The one I have presented is far worse because you are in a reality where nothing you do has any real impact and your efforts are truly fruitless. It's like being dead in the sense, but far worse since you are aware of the waste of your life.
Imaginary things don't have feelings, by definition. They have to exist for that to occur. Your feelings for imaginary characters don't mean anything because the object of those feelings is nonexistent. That's just how it is.
Man, why is it that when people ask these questions, it's always "What if everyone else is fake, and I'm the only real one?" They never ask if they're the fakes or the imagined.
If your reality is fictional, then whatever your body tells you is also a falsehood, because dream you is no more real than the people around you. You can safely ignore hunger, and thirst, and relief in all of its forms. Any emotion you've ever had is a falsehood, irrelevant in the face of creation. Your joy with gaming constructs? Irrelevant. Your sadness for loss? Irrelevant. Your anxiety at the perception of reality? Irrelevant. Because, per your own definition, you are emotionally reacting to and bonding with a fictional world, and all of the fictional things in it, which makes you soft in the head.
Honestly, it just kinda feels like you're asking these questions because you want to feel like you matter in a species 7 billion strong, and the life you're currently living isn't providing that for you.
Scenario A - All of reality is an illusion
Option A - Do nothing __ You have stated this is the optimal stance so you waste nothing.
Option B - Live your life as though it is in fact real __ I take this stance because it is the most optimal after all if nothing is real you can't waste anything
Scenario B - The world is in fact real
Option A - Do nothing __ You have taken this stance out of fear and it has the most horrible out come you yourself has stated, "nothing you do matters because you did nothing"
Option B - Live your life __ I have taken this stance due to the unlimited amount of upside with literally zero downside.
So if you're right then there is no difference between our choices. If I'm right you have forced your own worst case upon yourself.
How can you defend this as rational? The safe response is assume that reality exist because that is the only one with negative outcomes.
You have yet to present a case for assuming you're right, either as the more likely truth or as hedging your bet. In addition you have not proven your worst case is in fact bad at all. You have failed to present an argument beyond personal melancholy and have met each counter argument with the equivelent of "I can't consider the possibility I'm wrong so you are wrong."
Q. If we can't disprove something, why do we not just assume it is true?
A. Because argument from ignorance is a fallacy.
You have none. You had no evidence to point out that reality is illusory. You only have the fact that we cannot disprove that it is. That's it.
The first thing I thought of when I read the OP was Pascal's wager. And while the wager doesn't offer proof one way or the other it does address the questions in the OP. Specifically that the reason to believe in reality is that it offers infinite gain.
But, let's say that that the only thing that exists is one persona and everything else is a figment of that personas imagination. Well, aside from me being difficult and asking so what, does it actually change anything? If the person reading this is the persona and then decides that they are through with this existence and want to create a new one, does that mean anything to me? If I am part of the existence of that persona, it only means something to me if that persona wants it to. So, if you are the persona, you're living the high life. Whatever you imagine is existence, sounds quite frightening like a deity. On the other hand if say you are one of the imagined who has been given enough enlightenment to have a semblance of a self contained consciousness that has let their mind get the best of them and found themself in an irrational, fatalistic state of paranoia, then I guess your life is pretty bad.
When the persona responsible for my existence reads this, please read my mind. I have a few changes I would like implemented.
I stated how dreams can feel real and the fact that there are many sensory illusions that can deceive the senses (optical, auditory, temperature, etc). That's reason enough to doubt whether what we see and experience is actually real.
Somehow the position that I might be fake or imagined isn't troublesome. I'm not doing this because I want to, but so far I cannot find a way to definitively put this argument to bed since I cannot prove either side. The argument from ignorance can go both ways on this one. It feels like a shot in the dark on what is essentially the foundation for how I experience and interact with the rest of this reality.
I don't understand how the safe option is to treat it as though it is real. It seems like that is taking a risk that would lead to wasted effort, even if everything else is illusory it is still possible to waste your energy and your efforts. You would not have improved at anything since anything you would have done in that world would not count, it just disappeared in smoke. All the investments you made into things that didn't ultimately exist would make one then doubt whether it is worth it to do the same thing again lest you end up risking it all being illusory and wasting your effort again. It would just continue to build upon itself. To treat this as reality is to take a risk, to do otherwise is to be safe. Because if you did nothing, and it turns out to be false and fake, then you don't lose anything. Losing nothing is far better then believing you had something and to then losing it because the reality is that it never existed.
Doing nothing is the safest response because you don't invest in anything and therefor cannot lose anything. The response you are putting forth is risky with a huge negative outcome, one that I believe most people would not risk at all. Worse then death is the feeling that everything you ever did never existed. I know you would equate death with that, but the difference is that with death (as far as I know) you won't be aware of any of it.
So you aren't offering a safe option, but a huge risk with a relatively moderate reward but with a huge downfall. Even I know that's not a logical thing to do. That's the sort of choice a gambler makes.
So if the choice is live in reality, why add the addendum of "always be miserable?"
EDIT: Also, better to have lived and lost then never live at all.
You've nothing to point to the world not being real. Only the inability to prove that it isn't, otherwise known as the ability to prove a negative, which lends no credibility because that's true about virtually anything.
And if that's all you have, then basically what you're saying is that you're just going to worry about everything that could have the slightest possibility of being real, even if that possibility is infinitesimal, even if you have no evidence or reason to think it would be true.
That's not wisdom or rationality, mate, that's called an anxiety disorder.
And hell, if you're going to worry about stuff no matter how slight the probability might be, I would worry about quantum mechanics. There's a nonzero chance I could blink out of existence, fall through the floor, turn into a bowl of tapioca pudding. Fantastically unlikely, but it *could* happen.
Yeah, ok, do nothing. For the rest of your existence. See how well that works out for you. But hey, at least you didn't lose anything in the mix, right? (Now would be a good time to review the definition of the phrase "opportunity cost")