I think the main reason, though, is the idea that porn is an example of letting your instincts control you, instead of you controlling them.
Your emotions and instincts are there for a reason though and they help you, The problem arises when they aren't suppressed for the right purposes, because then your subconscious is sort of saying "wtf, I want to do this, so what if you just don't want me to do it?". So the problem is more of "when" to control your instincts so that it doesn't cause all this trouble. Because if your life is in danger, then its good to get angry and have adrenaline in your body so that your more likely to escape alive, or its good to be sad in order to get use to someone you love not being in your life anymore.
ON top of all that, if no one wanted to have sex, the human race would probably have died out long ago.
This is one of the questions that have risen up in my personal journey that I have taken up over the past couple of days to seek out truth. And I'm not ashamed to admit, or I should say, I am willing to state the fact that I am an avid watcher of all things pornographic.
Many religious folk believe pornography to be sinful or wrong. Mostly because it entails one of the seven deadly sins known as Lust. Which involves themes such as adultery and indulgence.
For me, personally, the axiological foundation of my morals is to treat others how I would want to be treated if I were in their situation. Based on this, I see nothing wrong with consentual porn. If someone wants to engage in sex for others to see, then I have no objections. I don't see how it harms them. Same goes for strippers.
Granted, there can be potential downsides to these things. I feel it's the responsibility of the person in porn (or stripper) to understand these before getting into the industry. There are risks involved and if they feel the payoff is worth the risks, then I see nothing wrong with it. If they don't understand the risks beforehand then I may have a little sympathy, but really I feel that it was up to them to realize what they were getting into.
Overall, I see nothing morally wrong with engaging in or viewing pornography.
Is there some kind of substantial proof that watching pornography is disadvantageous to our mental state?
I think it can become addictive, and possibly become a substitute for pursuing relationships and sex with partners IRL. Whether or not someone considers that "disadvantageous to our mental state" is up for debate I suppose. I guess it depends on what a person's priorities are.
Is it considered taboo in more American or European cultures than ones based on religion?
From what I've heard, Japan is a lot more open about its sexuality. I've heard from people who have been there that there are billboards with naked (or at least topless) women. Someone who's been there would have to confirm this though, never been there myself.
Is there proof that pornography has significant benefits?
I don't know about proof, but I'd imagine that getting off can reduce stress levels. In the absence of a sexual partner, porn would be helpful in achieving this. I've never looked for studies or anything on this though.
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"For small creatures such as we the vastness is bearable only through love." --Carl Sagan
I did touch on a similar idea in my massive first reply where porn has the effect of desensitizing people to certain fetishes. This is one of the principles /d/ operates on—porn is great for exploring things you'd never get to explore otherwise.
That said, the article there (and I admit I only skimmed it) seems to be focusing on unrealistic expectations from wanting real sex to be like porn, which is something entirely different. But I don't see it as a problem endemic to pornography so much as it is a problem of entertainment in general—in my mind, the "SADD" thing he's talking about is no different in spirit from people who expect real-life crime scene investigation to be like an episode of CSI.
I mean, hell, my porn would probably make people cringe, but I've never been running half-empty when it comes to real sex. Then again, "SADD" is something that'd be more of a male problem than a female problem just out of how male arousal works versus how female arousal works, but still, separation of fantasy and reality, etc etc.
Fair warning: I don't hold back discussing this subject. Skip this post if you're squeamish.
Okay, now that the middle-aged people are out of the audience with the children and teenagers raptly enthralled, let's get started:
The basic taboo simply comes from the puritanical heritage of the United States. Pornography itself doesn't really do much that's bad outside of negative stereotyping (mostly with trans people, which is why "shemale" is the worst thing you can call them, but also with most sexual stereotypes to lesser degrees). There's also the unrealistic expectations about sex that young men apparently get from porn. But again, none of this is inherent to pornography itself so much as it is a part of the mainstream porn industry (to counter my two examples from before: it's painfully easy to find non-exploitive transgender porn, and homemade videos are a staple porn archetype). Using "it's demeaning" or "it's exploitive" as an argument against porn is like using a Hollywood-specific argument against cinema.
Personally, I find social relaxation of sexual taboo to be much healthier than the relaxation of taboos against violence—two people having consensual sex is somehow "worse" to show than two people fighting to the death? There's nothing really wrong with sex, at least the way I see it, since it's a much more universal human desire than violence. Plus it's much more fun. And just as violent movies/games/etc are the DIY version of sating violent desires, porn facilitates the DIY (or rather DYY) version of sating sexual desires. So there's really no reason to have one be okay and moral enough for religious purposes and have the other be some kind of great taboo.
The other argument, alluded to above, is that porn opens you up to the "sin" of masturbation (Onanism, to make it sound fancy, which is also where the Japanese term "onanie" comes from—yes, I just happen to know this offhand), the actual biblical validity of which is suspect at best. But it should be fairly obvious that dealing with your sexual desires by masturbating is a hell of a lot healthier, mentally speaking, than trying to bury them and having the frustration seep into other areas of your life. But again, the major objection here stems from puritanical influence with choosy interpretations of the bible rather than anything concrete.
I'm actually going to go off on a tangent largely because it's an effect that I find interesting. This is where it gets trippy.
To get started, I want it noted I frequent a lot of *chan boards. I'm a regular on certain ones you'd never expect me to be on (I go by the name Anonymous; you may have seen some of my posts). So obviously, I see a lot of porn (usually hentai) just casually. And I consider myself fairly desensitized to it. Someone starts an otherwise serious thread with a hentai image because an image upload is required for the OP, and I don't even blink. I'm also largely unfazed by almost all the content on /d/ (yes, I am a /d/eviant, haters gonna hate). You'd be surprised at the quality of discussion you can get on there, especially with regards to niche subjects like just where these weird fetishes come from (and I'm talking truly "out there" stuff that would probably be disturbing to "normal" people, like vore, amputee fetishism, etc). The argument I tend to side with is simple: With greater freedom and less taboo and restriction, the more people can safely explore their own sexuality. You see increasing numbers of people experimenting with fetishes they'd never consider otherwise, and you see people accepting more casual breaks in gender binaries and greyer sexual orientation (if you want to see both effects in action, find a "trap" thread).
And you know what? These people living lives full of what a religious perspective would call "sexual excess" tend to have very good separation of fantasy and reality. None of them would ever want to enact them in real life—on the contrary, they find people who actually do these things in real life to be abhorrent. But they're free to engage in these fantasies in a safe setting with people who share their fetishes. They're just doing what comes naturally. By and large, they're very intelligent, stable, and actually quite nice (outside of /b/, which is a cesspool and thus doesn't count).
Digression: You ever wonder how I can speak intelligently about basically any subject? Now you know. It's something that does require more effort on my part than simply reading and theorycrafying. For example, the gender/sexuality stuff in other threads is more personal experience than anything else, but filtered through intelligent discussion with other knowledgeable people drawing upon all our collective experiences.
On a personal note, in answer to Kraken's question of whether it's bad to teach children about sex by pornography: Most of my sex ed as a teenager was through the Internet. Sure, I got the basic "boys have penises and girls have vaginas" oversimplification in school (and that summation is at best laughably incorrect, and at worst a dangerous and hurtful lie, but that's an argument for another thread), yet the overall education, ranging from specific techniques to related things like fetishes and lifestyles came from the most sex-positive place in the world: the Internet. I consider myself a child of the Internet, and I turned out just fine.
Hey, you in the peanut gallery: Shut up.
Anyway, my whole point is that when you drop the taboos centred around sex, you wind up with people who are simply different than normal. In many ways they're healthier and more well-adjusted. There's nothing inherently bad about being different, but the fear of difference, the fear of the unknown, drives people towards heteronormativity. They hear that these people are filthy, dirty deviants, and rather than see what's actually going on, they just accept it because that's part of human psychology. That's why you get knee-jerk reactions to sex and porn: Someone in authority said a long time ago that it's bad, so for the sake of tradition let's keep condemning it without even thinking about it, using circular arguments such as "sex and porn are bad because they're immoral" leading into "you're immoral because you're sex- and porn-positive." No one ever bothers to explain it.
tl;dr Pornography is just an extension of lowering the taboo over sex and when you take that away you're left with a set of morals and world views that aren't any worse than when the taboo is there. On the contrary, I'm proud to be who and what I am, and am thankful for what the Internet (and porn) have given me as a person.
Also, despite me having a reputation for being a "yaoi fangirl," I should admit the actual amount of BL I read/watch is surprisingly low (although I do have several series queued up I need to go through).
I find much of your reasoning exceptionaly fresh and logical, which is fairly different than the narrow minded morons that inhabit this world.
Frankly speaking, I think sex is overrated and overhyped. To the youth it's a "must do" and for older people it's still a "must do, but never talk about." It's sort of like Fight Club when it comes to social conservatives, it's something they enjoy a lot but never talk about.
Biggest hypocrisy I feel comes when people call out for abstinence and controls on pornography for adults, meanwhile those very people that engaged in pre-marital sex.
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Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
It's the classic right wing approach: Have all the fun you can, then set out to stop others from having the same fun.
I think you have that wrong, it's to basically appear to not be having fun, then admonish people, and then get caught in the bathroom with another man. It's why I don't trumpet my own morality, because I actually try to practice and fall short of social conservative ideals. Trying to be more moral for the sake of virtue is a noble goal, perhaps we need to alter on what virtue means and ameliorate the hard nosed conflict between stoicism and hedonism (or hedonism as at least interpreted by most moderns).
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Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
In my experience, the people who are against porn are usually women. This is because 70% of guys watch porn on a regular basis, and those are just the ones who admit it. I would wager that the actual number is several points higher.
Not to say that women don't watch porn. 1/3 porn viewers is a woman. However, I don't think women watch porn as regularly as men do, although that statement is backed up by absolutely no numbers.
Why do women not like porn, then? I think that there are several reasons. One, most porn is directly targeted at men. As someone who has watched a lot of porn (being totally honest here), I have never seen porn that says, "THIS PORN INTENDED FOR WOMEN." My own tastes in porn are pretty pedestrian, but I have to imagine that if porn aimed at women was a common thing, I would have run across it by now.
Secondly, I think a lot of women in relationships feel threatened by porn. As the great philosopher Maddox writes in his book,
Quote from Maddox »
The reason women don't like the idea of men watching porn during relationships is because women feel like they have to compete with porn, when in fact, there's no competition. Porn always wins. Porn doesn't complain about her co-workers asking why she's walking with a limp the next day, it doesn't cry if you lose your balance and break her stupid alarm clock (what kind of grown woman has a Hello Kitty alarm clock anyway?) and it doesn't get pissy like a woman does when you tell her to use the payphone down the street to call for a cab after sex.
Now, admittedly this is from a terrible, misogynistic source, but he does have a point. When a woman in a relationship finds her significant other watching porn featuring a woman who has a size negative 2 waist and a chest that could double as a pair of medicine balls, wouldn't she feel inadequate and threatened? To many women, I think, porn represents a sort of betrayal of trust, whereas to men, it is seen more as a harmless way to relieve some pressure.
The reason women don't like the idea of men watching porn during relationships is because women feel like they have to compete with porn, when in fact, there's no competition. Porn always wins. Porn doesn't complain about her co-workers asking why she's walking with a limp the next day, it doesn't cry if you lose your balance and break her stupid alarm clock (what kind of grown woman has a Hello Kitty alarm clock anyway?) and it doesn't get pissy like a woman does when you tell her to use the payphone down the street to call for a cab after sex.
You can't have sex with porn.
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"If you're Havengul problems I feel bad for you son, I got 99 problems and a Lich ain't one." - FSM
"In a world where money talks, silence is horrifying."
All right. Brother's addiction to pornography lead to his eventual raping of my sister. He was 14 at the time, she was 10.
That's a terrible tragedy, and I can't imagine how you and your family must feel about it. However, I have to question your assumption that pornography was the cause. Most 14-year-old boys in this day and age seek out and find porn. Very, very few of them rape their sisters, or anyone else for that matter. And if something is supposed to cause something else, then shouldn't the cause be a good predictor of the effect? You certainly can't work the reasoning backwards like you're doing: after all, almost all rapists are male, but you wouldn't say that being male causes someone to commit rape.
My uncle's marriage, was shaken they almost separated. It took a long time to work out.
Now this is something that is a little more commonly associated with porn. However, it is even more commonly associated with bad decisionmaking. There are millions of ways to screw up a relationship. Porn is a relatively harmless one, as they go.
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Vive, vale. Siquid novisti rectius istis,
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
All right. Brother's addiction to pornography lead to his eventual raping of my sister. He was 14 at the time, she was 10.
Not to sound like a *****, but it seems like your brother had problems anyway and that, at most, porn was simply a trigger. Had it not been porn, it would've been something else.
(what kind of grown woman has a Hello Kitty alarm clock anyway?)
I understand how you might think that. You would be incorrect actually my brother is a very good man. Pornography was causing problems in his life. Years later he has eliminated his use of it and now lives an average life with his wife and three kids. I've spent a lot of time examining this. It may not fit very well, but it's what it is. Pornography was a problem the problem was dealt with. There is no more problem.
See, that's a very male response. Of course women shouldn't be threatened by porn, men can't have sex with a videotape, right?
Actually, there is probably a video somewhere of a guy having sex with a pornographic videotape, or dvd, or hard drive. Metaporn, if you will. But I digress.
The point is, no sexual intercourse need occur, or even be possible, in order to trigger an emotional response. This is something that I think most men simply don't understand. Never have I heard a man speak of "emotional cheating." To a guy, cheating implies physicality. However, to a lot of women, emotional cheating is as real, and as important, as physical cheating. And watching porn can easily be construed as a form of emotional cheating.
"If you're Havengul problems I feel bad for you son, I got 99 problems and a Lich ain't one." - FSM
"In a world where money talks, silence is horrifying."
I understand how you might think that. You would be incorrect actually my brother is a very good man.
Very good people watch porn all the time, and nothing comes of it. There was obviously something abnormal about your brother's case. And that abnormality would be the root cause of the problem, not the porn.
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Vive, vale. Siquid novisti rectius istis,
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
However, to a lot of women, emotional cheating is as real, and as important, as physical cheating. And watching porn can easily be construed as a form of emotional cheating.
Hey now, I've actually had guys be amazed at just how much better my porn collection was than theirs. Watching with a boyfriend is a bonding experience if anything.
This is something that I think most men simply don't understand. Never have I heard a man speak of "emotional cheating." To a guy, cheating implies physicality. However, to a lot of women, emotional cheating is as real, and as important, as physical cheating. And watching porn can easily be construed as a form of emotional cheating.
Hey now, I've actually had guys be amazed at just how much better my porn collection was than theirs. Watching with a boyfriend is a bonding experience if anything.
Need I point out that you're both overgeneralizing from anecdotes?
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Vive, vale. Siquid novisti rectius istis,
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
Yeah, but my anecdote is far more comedic (especially when I actually get them to admit my porn is better than theirs).
Would I get a warn if I asked for proof?
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"If you're Havengul problems I feel bad for you son, I got 99 problems and a Lich ain't one." - FSM
"In a world where money talks, silence is horrifying."
Your emotions and instincts are there for a reason though and they help you, The problem arises when they aren't suppressed for the right purposes, because then your subconscious is sort of saying "wtf, I want to do this, so what if you just don't want me to do it?". So the problem is more of "when" to control your instincts so that it doesn't cause all this trouble. Because if your life is in danger, then its good to get angry and have adrenaline in your body so that your more likely to escape alive, or its good to be sad in order to get use to someone you love not being in your life anymore.
ON top of all that, if no one wanted to have sex, the human race would probably have died out long ago.
For me, personally, the axiological foundation of my morals is to treat others how I would want to be treated if I were in their situation. Based on this, I see nothing wrong with consentual porn. If someone wants to engage in sex for others to see, then I have no objections. I don't see how it harms them. Same goes for strippers.
Granted, there can be potential downsides to these things. I feel it's the responsibility of the person in porn (or stripper) to understand these before getting into the industry. There are risks involved and if they feel the payoff is worth the risks, then I see nothing wrong with it. If they don't understand the risks beforehand then I may have a little sympathy, but really I feel that it was up to them to realize what they were getting into.
Overall, I see nothing morally wrong with engaging in or viewing pornography.
I think it can become addictive, and possibly become a substitute for pursuing relationships and sex with partners IRL. Whether or not someone considers that "disadvantageous to our mental state" is up for debate I suppose. I guess it depends on what a person's priorities are.
I'm sure you could find some who do. Most, however, would have little or no issue with pornographic material.
From what I've heard, Japan is a lot more open about its sexuality. I've heard from people who have been there that there are billboards with naked (or at least topless) women. Someone who's been there would have to confirm this though, never been there myself.
I don't know about proof, but I'd imagine that getting off can reduce stress levels. In the absence of a sexual partner, porn would be helpful in achieving this. I've never looked for studies or anything on this though.
SADD?
I don't know if I buy it, but it's an argument.
That said, the article there (and I admit I only skimmed it) seems to be focusing on unrealistic expectations from wanting real sex to be like porn, which is something entirely different. But I don't see it as a problem endemic to pornography so much as it is a problem of entertainment in general—in my mind, the "SADD" thing he's talking about is no different in spirit from people who expect real-life crime scene investigation to be like an episode of CSI.
I mean, hell, my porn would probably make people cringe, but I've never been running half-empty when it comes to real sex. Then again, "SADD" is something that'd be more of a male problem than a female problem just out of how male arousal works versus how female arousal works, but still, separation of fantasy and reality, etc etc.
I find much of your reasoning exceptionaly fresh and logical, which is fairly different than the narrow minded morons that inhabit this world.
Spam warning.
EDH is Magic's: Island of Misfit Toys
Heroes of the Plane Studios
Trades Bro --
Biggest hypocrisy I feel comes when people call out for abstinence and controls on pornography for adults, meanwhile those very people that engaged in pre-marital sex.
Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
I think you have that wrong, it's to basically appear to not be having fun, then admonish people, and then get caught in the bathroom with another man. It's why I don't trumpet my own morality, because I actually try to practice and fall short of social conservative ideals. Trying to be more moral for the sake of virtue is a noble goal, perhaps we need to alter on what virtue means and ameliorate the hard nosed conflict between stoicism and hedonism (or hedonism as at least interpreted by most moderns).
Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
http://www.fightthenewdrug.org/
People are against pornography for a variety of reasons. I've see it hurt a lot of important people in my life. I get upset when talking about it.
Oh? Do tell.
Yes, I know you said it upsets you to talk about it. I don't care. If you're going to say things like I quoted, you better be ready to back them up.
My uncle's marriage, was shaken they almost separated. It took a long time to work out.
Those 2 are just the ones I know of in my own family.
Not to say that women don't watch porn. 1/3 porn viewers is a woman. However, I don't think women watch porn as regularly as men do, although that statement is backed up by absolutely no numbers.
Why do women not like porn, then? I think that there are several reasons. One, most porn is directly targeted at men. As someone who has watched a lot of porn (being totally honest here), I have never seen porn that says, "THIS PORN INTENDED FOR WOMEN." My own tastes in porn are pretty pedestrian, but I have to imagine that if porn aimed at women was a common thing, I would have run across it by now.
Secondly, I think a lot of women in relationships feel threatened by porn. As the great philosopher Maddox writes in his book,
Now, admittedly this is from a terrible, misogynistic source, but he does have a point. When a woman in a relationship finds her significant other watching porn featuring a woman who has a size negative 2 waist and a chest that could double as a pair of medicine balls, wouldn't she feel inadequate and threatened? To many women, I think, porn represents a sort of betrayal of trust, whereas to men, it is seen more as a harmless way to relieve some pressure.
You can't have sex with porn.
"In a world where money talks, silence is horrifying."
Ashcoat Bear of Limited
That's a terrible tragedy, and I can't imagine how you and your family must feel about it. However, I have to question your assumption that pornography was the cause. Most 14-year-old boys in this day and age seek out and find porn. Very, very few of them rape their sisters, or anyone else for that matter. And if something is supposed to cause something else, then shouldn't the cause be a good predictor of the effect? You certainly can't work the reasoning backwards like you're doing: after all, almost all rapists are male, but you wouldn't say that being male causes someone to commit rape.
Now this is something that is a little more commonly associated with porn. However, it is even more commonly associated with bad decisionmaking. There are millions of ways to screw up a relationship. Porn is a relatively harmless one, as they go.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
Not to sound like a *****, but it seems like your brother had problems anyway and that, at most, porn was simply a trigger. Had it not been porn, it would've been something else.
Grown women who like Hello Kitty, represent~
See, that's a very male response. Of course women shouldn't be threatened by porn, men can't have sex with a videotape, right?
Actually, there is probably a video somewhere of a guy having sex with a pornographic videotape, or dvd, or hard drive. Metaporn, if you will. But I digress.
The point is, no sexual intercourse need occur, or even be possible, in order to trigger an emotional response. This is something that I think most men simply don't understand. Never have I heard a man speak of "emotional cheating." To a guy, cheating implies physicality. However, to a lot of women, emotional cheating is as real, and as important, as physical cheating. And watching porn can easily be construed as a form of emotional cheating.
"In a world where money talks, silence is horrifying."
Ashcoat Bear of Limited
Actually, if that were even remotely close to a good answer, and actually happened, the world would be an amazing place.
Very good people watch porn all the time, and nothing comes of it. There was obviously something abnormal about your brother's case. And that abnormality would be the root cause of the problem, not the porn.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
Hey now, I've actually had guys be amazed at just how much better my porn collection was than theirs. Watching with a boyfriend is a bonding experience if anything.
Need I point out that you're both overgeneralizing from anecdotes?
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
Would I get a warn if I asked for proof?
"In a world where money talks, silence is horrifying."
Ashcoat Bear of Limited