This is one of the questions that have risen up in my personal journey that I have taken up over the past couple of days to seek out truth. And I'm not ashamed to admit, or I should say, I am willing to state the fact that I am an avid watcher of all things pornographic.
Many religious folk believe pornography to be sinful or wrong. Mostly because it entails one of the seven deadly sins known as Lust. Which involves themes such as adultery and indulgence.
Is there some kind of substantial proof that watching pornography is disadvantageous to our mental state? Let's pretend that the viewing of pornography is NOT being tied to adultery or losing intimacy with a significant other where it's obvious that it's harmful to everyone involved. Do non-religious people have morals that entail going against pornographic material? Is it considered taboo in more American or European cultures than ones based on religion? Is there proof that pornography has significant benefits?
I have my own opinion on this subject, but I feel like I would cheapen the debate if I just came out and said my feelings on the subject and made it look like I was grand standing or being hypocritical. So feel free to post your thoughts below.
Of course, it is considered bad even when not applied to kids. Somehow, adults watching pornography is wrong, too. Explain that, mondu.
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The Sage is occupied with the unspoken
and acts without effort.
Teaching without verbosity,
producing without possessing,
creating without regard to result,
claiming nothing,
the Sage has nothing to lose.
Porn is degrading. And hilarious. Like most forms of comedy.
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"If you're Havengul problems I feel bad for you son, I got 99 problems and a Lich ain't one." - FSM
"In a world where money talks, silence is horrifying."
Ok, let me play devils advocate, even though I expressly said let's assume this isn't a family situation. If you have children, why is it a bad thing for them to learn about sex through pornography? Most of the time, the parents arn't going to discuss sex willingly with their kids, and the school systems are draconic in their approach to sex anyway. So again, why is pornography considered bad?
Fair warning: I don't hold back discussing this subject. Skip this post if you're squeamish.
Okay, now that the middle-aged people are out of the audience with the children and teenagers raptly enthralled, let's get started:
The basic taboo simply comes from the puritanical heritage of the United States. Pornography itself doesn't really do much that's bad outside of negative stereotyping (mostly with trans people, which is why "shemale" is the worst thing you can call them, but also with most sexual stereotypes to lesser degrees). There's also the unrealistic expectations about sex that young men apparently get from porn. But again, none of this is inherent to pornography itself so much as it is a part of the mainstream porn industry (to counter my two examples from before: it's painfully easy to find non-exploitive transgender porn, and homemade videos are a staple porn archetype). Using "it's demeaning" or "it's exploitive" as an argument against porn is like using a Hollywood-specific argument against cinema.
Personally, I find social relaxation of sexual taboo to be much healthier than the relaxation of taboos against violence—two people having consensual sex is somehow "worse" to show than two people fighting to the death? There's nothing really wrong with sex, at least the way I see it, since it's a much more universal human desire than violence. Plus it's much more fun. And just as violent movies/games/etc are the DIY version of sating violent desires, porn facilitates the DIY (or rather DYY) version of sating sexual desires. So there's really no reason to have one be okay and moral enough for religious purposes and have the other be some kind of great taboo.
The other argument, alluded to above, is that porn opens you up to the "sin" of masturbation (Onanism, to make it sound fancy, which is also where the Japanese term "onanie" comes from—yes, I just happen to know this offhand), the actual biblical validity of which is suspect at best. But it should be fairly obvious that dealing with your sexual desires by masturbating is a hell of a lot healthier, mentally speaking, than trying to bury them and having the frustration seep into other areas of your life. But again, the major objection here stems from puritanical influence with choosy interpretations of the bible rather than anything concrete.
I'm actually going to go off on a tangent largely because it's an effect that I find interesting. This is where it gets trippy.
To get started, I want it noted I frequent a lot of *chan boards. I'm a regular on certain ones you'd never expect me to be on (I go by the name Anonymous; you may have seen some of my posts). So obviously, I see a lot of porn (usually hentai) just casually. And I consider myself fairly desensitized to it. Someone starts an otherwise serious thread with a hentai image because an image upload is required for the OP, and I don't even blink. I'm also largely unfazed by almost all the content on /d/ (yes, I am a /d/eviant, haters gonna hate). You'd be surprised at the quality of discussion you can get on there, especially with regards to niche subjects like just where these weird fetishes come from (and I'm talking truly "out there" stuff that would probably be disturbing to "normal" people, like vore, amputee fetishism, etc). The argument I tend to side with is simple: With greater freedom and less taboo and restriction, the more people can safely explore their own sexuality. You see increasing numbers of people experimenting with fetishes they'd never consider otherwise, and you see people accepting more casual breaks in gender binaries and greyer sexual orientation (if you want to see both effects in action, find a "trap" thread).
And you know what? These people living lives full of what a religious perspective would call "sexual excess" tend to have very good separation of fantasy and reality. None of them would ever want to enact them in real life—on the contrary, they find people who actually do these things in real life to be abhorrent. But they're free to engage in these fantasies in a safe setting with people who share their fetishes. They're just doing what comes naturally. By and large, they're very intelligent, stable, and actually quite nice (outside of /b/, which is a cesspool and thus doesn't count).
Digression: You ever wonder how I can speak intelligently about basically any subject? Now you know. It's something that does require more effort on my part than simply reading and theorycrafying. For example, the gender/sexuality stuff in other threads is more personal experience than anything else, but filtered through intelligent discussion with other knowledgeable people drawing upon all our collective experiences.
On a personal note, in answer to Kraken's question of whether it's bad to teach children about sex by pornography: Most of my sex ed as a teenager was through the Internet. Sure, I got the basic "boys have penises and girls have vaginas" oversimplification in school (and that summation is at best laughably incorrect, and at worst a dangerous and hurtful lie, but that's an argument for another thread), yet the overall education, ranging from specific techniques to related things like fetishes and lifestyles came from the most sex-positive place in the world: the Internet. I consider myself a child of the Internet, and I turned out just fine.
Hey, you in the peanut gallery: Shut up.
Anyway, my whole point is that when you drop the taboos centred around sex, you wind up with people who are simply different than normal. In many ways they're healthier and more well-adjusted. There's nothing inherently bad about being different, but the fear of difference, the fear of the unknown, drives people towards heteronormativity. They hear that these people are filthy, dirty deviants, and rather than see what's actually going on, they just accept it because that's part of human psychology. That's why you get knee-jerk reactions to sex and porn: Someone in authority said a long time ago that it's bad, so for the sake of tradition let's keep condemning it without even thinking about it, using circular arguments such as "sex and porn are bad because they're immoral" leading into "you're immoral because you're sex- and porn-positive." No one ever bothers to explain it.
tl;dr Pornography is just an extension of lowering the taboo over sex and when you take that away you're left with a set of morals and world views that aren't any worse than when the taboo is there. On the contrary, I'm proud to be who and what I am, and am thankful for what the Internet (and porn) have given me as a person.
Also, despite me having a reputation for being a "yaoi fangirl," I should admit the actual amount of BL I read/watch is surprisingly low (although I do have several series queued up I need to go through).
I think kids need to know some background/context of porn, because they are going to watch it anyway. I love porn and would defend it to the death, but I can see how it can see how it would instill a negative way of looking at women and a selfish way of thinking about of sex.
That being said, this isn't just the kids world. Kids don't pay my credit card or my internet bills (or anything useful for the most part, I know exceptions are out there), plus I dont think over-sheltering kids is helpful. We can PROTECT them from physical harm, from hunger and from the elements but outside of that its sheltering. This is coming from one who was over-sheltered as a child if that makes a difference.
Oh, I don't have a source handy but apparently masterbation (sic?) at least 4 times a week reduces the risk prostate cancer by like 66%. Literrally "clean the pipes."
And according to the show "Penn & Teller B.S!" States with higher internet use per capita have lower rates of rape than the ones with less internet use per capita. That isn't proof of anything but many anti-porn cursaders willl claim that porn encourages rape, but thats just a lie. Not unlike the big book of lies most of them love so very much
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"One day we will add bananas to our mana pools. But that day is not today" - Moko
Anyone who thinks sex can't be addictive is doing it wrong
To get started, I want it noted I frequent a lot of *chan boards. I'm a regular on certain ones you'd never expect me to be on (I go by the name Anonymous; you may have seen some of my posts). So obviously, I see a lot of porn (usually hentai) just casually. And I consider myself fairly desensitized to it. Someone starts an otherwise serious thread with a hentai image because an image upload is required for the OP, and I don't even blink. I'm also largely unfazed by almost all the content on /d/ (yes, I am a /d/eviant, haters gonna hate). You'd be surprised at the quality of discussion you can get on there, especially with regards to niche subjects like just where these weird fetishes come from (and I'm talking truly "out there" stuff that would probably be disturbing to "normal" people, like vore, amputee fetishism, etc). The argument I tend to side with is simple: With greater freedom and less taboo and restriction, the more people can safely explore their own sexuality. You see increasing numbers of people experimenting with fetishes they'd never consider otherwise, and you see people accepting more casual breaks in gender binaries and greyer sexual orientation (if you want to see both effects in action, find a "trap" thread).
Do you feel the recent invasion of /d/ with 90% androgynous images is a good thing or a bad thing for what /d/ is allegedly meant for? I've noticed your opinion in regards to sexuality and it's gray areas is very liberal. Personally I feel people are going to post what they are going to post, so if futanari is the "in" right now, then that's what you're gonna see. I was just curious as to your opinion.
Do you feel the recent invasion of /d/ with 90% androgynous images is a good thing or a bad thing for what /d/ is allegedly meant for? I've noticed your opinion in regards to sexuality and it's gray areas is very liberal. Personally I feel people are going to post what they are going to post, so if futanari is the "in" right now, then that's what you're gonna see. I was just curious as to your opinion.
I'm totally not a fan of futanari, but I'm not going to pretend it's somehow against what the board was originally intended for (leaving aside that "/d/ is for /d/ickgirls" slogan people throw around). I used to be into it but I'm finding actual trans women are better for that particular fetish. Anyway, just because it's not my cup of tea doesn't mean I'll crusade against it or anything. Course, you said "androgynous" and my first thought was, "hey, genderqueer is awesome" but that's totally something else.
Also, just so people can get some perspective: You said my views are very liberal, but I don't actually see them along liberal/conservative lines, myself. I just see them as natural, and that this level of acceptance of others is just basic human decency. It's the same reason for why I see sexuality and gender as basically nothing but grey areas: I don't see why silly little labels should be allowed to define them.
Edit:
It's just that noone talks about it, since sexual activity is a private matter.
This is pretty much the reason why I rarely discuss it when it's not actually relevant. Unless you've got the misfortune to be one of my friends, in which case you learn very quickly that I make a lot of spectacularly perverted jokes (people on this forum usually only hear me in academic or argumentative modes, which I've heard can be a bit jarring when I shift away from them, ref. that one thread where I argued against sexualized Magic art and then later made a rainbow party joke). Basically it's just another subject, subject to the wheres and whens of it being appropriate, but fair game for humour when it's just me and my friends (except that I leave the trans jokes to the trans people in my group of friends as a respect thing).
And as for marrying at 20, good lord. I'm 23 and I don't see myself getting married until I'm around 30 at least—but then again sex and marriage are two totally different things in my mind, unlike those classmates of yours.
Ok, let me play devils advocate, even though I expressly said let's assume this isn't a family situation.
You didn't say that. What you said is avoiding things like adultery and harming the significant other, but nothing about children.
Note that I never said anything about porn being bad. However, any activity that I am uncomfortable with children emulating is an activity that isn't exactly good, either. I like porn, though, whatever its morality.
If you have children, why is it a bad thing for them to learn about sex through pornography?
Pornography does not teach responsibility nor offers any realistic representation of sex. No one gets pregnant (well, except for some fetish porn), no one has an STD, sex is always great, grabbing a woman by the hair to your crotch turns her on, anything below 8 inches is tiny, etc.
If you want to get to the root of why porn is bad, try to figure out why sex itself is considered a taboo topic (not that I think it is bad, just pointing out a direction of thought). Pornography is a representation of sex, and since sex itself makes people squirmy, so does pornography.
I consider myself a child of the Internet, and I turned out just fine.
"If you're Havengul problems I feel bad for you son, I got 99 problems and a Lich ain't one." - FSM
"In a world where money talks, silence is horrifying."
Pornography does not teach responsibility nor offers any realistic representation of sex. No one gets pregnant (well, except for some fetish porn), no one has an STD, sex is always great, grabbing a woman by the hair to your crotch turns her on, anything below 8 inches is tiny, etc.
I noted above but I'm repeating for sake of visibility: These are only problems with the mainstream porn industry, not porn as a whole. Homemade videos showing regular people having regular sex are actually very common.
You can also avert the "it's unrealistic" factor fairly easily with proper, upfront education. Personal example very highly summarized: "That doesn't look very fun for the woman..." "That's because it's unrealistic since x, y, and z. In reality, you a, b, and c." "Oh. That sounds much more fun."
You didn't say that. What you said is avoiding things like adultery and harming the significant other, but nothing about children. Note that I never said anything about porn being bad. However, any activity that I am uncomfortable with children emulating is an activity that isn't exactly good, either.
I wasn't aware that I had to lay out every single member of the family beyond significant other in order to avoid you using a cop out like the children, your aunt, uncle, cousins, nephews, nieces and grandparents as an argument against pornography.
So no, I may not have said a family matter in it's completeness, but you still have failed to do anything other than throw a red herring into a debate I already requested we take out other aspects that could harm other people beyond yourself from this discussion.
Sounds like to me you weren't actually interested in debate. You just wanted to chime in "Save the children!~ I'm out". Well mission accomplished. Consider yourself a paragon of child safety. Here's a gold star.
"Think of the children!" is a hilarious knee-jerk reaction, especially when invoked against someone whose idea of thinking of the children is discussing the merits of unrestrained education.
I don't think removing the taboo of pornography is going to do anything in regards to increasing the quality of sex education, in all honesty.
It's like you said, actual education of real life examples of sexuality is a more common sense model to stand by.
So I guess through a logical stand point, the porn industry itself can stand as is. Kids know where to find the stuff whether their parents are in control or not. But what IS important is letting the kids know that what they see in porn is not what happens in real life. Almost like television, or video games. It's basically just as normal a part of life as either of those two anyway.
Kids know where to find the stuff whether their parents are in control or not.
Fun fact: The reason I got so much into yaoi and hentai and etc to begin with it because it wasn't blocked by the internet filter I had to deal with at the time and navigating Japanese sites was easier than hacking my way past it.
So yeah, an adolescent's sex drive will generally overcome any attempts to control it. Better to point it in the right direction and let the problem take care of itself.
Care to refute what I said rather than "oh, he just gave a knee jerk reaction, ignore him"?
"Think of the children!" is a hilarious knee-jerk reaction, especially when invoked against someone whose idea of thinking of the children is discussing the merits of unrestrained education.
I have no problem with sex education to children, so I'm not sure where this sentiment came from. Pornography can be education, but that's not its purpose, and is more often a source of _miseducation_.
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"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
Pornography does not teach responsibility nor offers any realistic representation of sex. No one gets pregnant (well, except for some fetish porn), no one has an STD, sex is always great, grabbing a woman by the hair to your crotch turns her on, anything below 8 inches is tiny, etc.
We are in agreement with this. I don't see where I disagreed, refutation is unnecessary. Does this answer the question as to whether or not pornography is bad? I don't think so. You added nothing.
If you want to get to the root of why porn is bad, try to figure out why sex itself is considered a taboo topic (not that I think it is bad, just pointing out a direction of thought). Pornography is a representation of sex, and since sex itself makes people squirmy, so does pornography.
We know why sex is considered a taboo topic. It's mostly based in religion. However, I left my original post open to those who were not religious to give reasoning as to why they believe pornography is bad. Once again, we are in agreement.
There's nothing to refute here. What do you want me to do? Continue bashing you because you made a knee jerk reaction? You haven't told me you disagree with pornography, but you haven't told me how hiding porn from children is a benefit to kids either. So I'm waiting for you to actually explain your position regarding kids and porn before we can go any further.
Pornography can be education, but that's not its purpose, and is more often a source of _miseducation_.
I think I'm living proof that to an intelligent person it's not miseducation in the slightest.
But then again my idea of porn isn't limited to mainstream mass-market titles that are total crap from start to finish. And I'm not saying "watching porn is education in and of itself" so much as "a sex- and porn-positive upbringing is more educational and beneficial than constructing taboos around both." But again, this only works when your horizons are expanded past simple mainstream jerk films.
What exactly did you say that was worth refuting? lol. You haven't added anything to the conversation.
You haven't, either. You made a topic, but have said nothing of substance. Serveral attacks, but nothing intellgent.
I answered your previous question.At this point given that you are saying that I haven't contributed anything, it is apparent that you already have an opinion on the matter (which you haven't stated), and blast anyone who don't think the same way as you do or capable of reading your mind.
Good job. Nice ninja edit as well.
I think I'm living proof that to an intelligent person it's not miseducation in the slightest.
Like I asked: it it because of, or inspite of? Are you an upstanding person because of porn, or are you an upstanding person despite of porn? The difference is important. Because of would imply that porn is a good thing. Inspite of is the opposite.
You haven't, either. You made a topic, but have said nothing of substance. Serveral attacks, but nothing intellgent.
I answered your previous question.At this point given that you are saying that I haven't contributed anything, it is apparent that you already have an opinion on the matter (which you haven't stated), and blast anyone who don't think the same way as you do or capable of reading your mind.
Good job.
Look, I think you need to take a deep breathe, step back, and reevaluate the situation. I'm purposefully not stating my exact position on the matter because to do so would put me on a pedestal of "This is my opinion, I think I'm right, and all of you who disagree with me are morons so I'm gonna pick a fight now".
I made this thread with the intention of learning other peoples thoughts as to why they think pornography is bad. You made a knee jerk reaction seeing a loop hole when I said "significant other" but didn't mention children, and you used it as a cop out.
I want actual, substantial reasons as to why pornography is bad. Why is pornography harmful to children? So far you've let us know that bad sex education has a negative effect on children, which is true. But why is PORNOGRAPHY at fault? Explain your position.
I edited my post because you edited your previous post and added more to it. As a matter of fact, you keep on editing your posts repeatedly adding new content after I've already quoted you. Pot, meet kettle. Are we going to continue on this yellow brick road or are you going to actually defend your position yet?
Pornography is often designed to cater to popular fetishes as strongly as possible. The actors are experienced or even professionals. Emulating them could have some bad consequences, from disappointment (and subsequent self-esteem issues) to someone physically getting hurt.
Sex-ed is a potent remedy to this, though.
You know, I would absolutely love if pornographic film industries started running WWE-esque vignettes telling viewers not to try this at home. Epic epic lulz.
Like I asked: it it because of, or inspite of? Are you an upstanding person because of porn, or are you an upstanding person despite of porn? The difference is important. Because of would imply that porn is a good thing. Inspite of is the opposite.
It's definitely because of it. Pornography (again, including mainstream porn, BL, hentai, slash fiction, and everything else) did a much better job of giving me a broader understanding of sexuality than anything else in my life. With greater exposure to difference comes higher tolerance/acceptance of these differences. Even with things that I used to look at as being completely and utterly weird and incomprehensible, talking to people who are into them helped me understand the appeal even if I didn't share their enthusiasm.
Valuable lessons all around, not just of sex but also of tolerance and acceptance.
there are plenty of respectable porn studios who take good care of their actors and actresses.
There are also a fair number of studios run by the women appearing in the films. It's not all misogynistic and racist even among the mainstream. That falls mostly under the lowbrow stuff aimed at the working class—see also the difference between Playboy and Penthouse. The former was until recently a very respectable publication in which many article and short story writers would take pride in being published. The latter was always aimed more at guys who just want a quick wank.
The greatest misogyny is assuming that women shouldn't be allowed to choose if they want to be in porn or not. It's her body, therefore it's her decision.
Edit:
It can be expected that a certain amount of people with a certain fetish will have the desire to act on it and lack the impediments that would keep them from doing so despite the desire.
I see no way by which you can estimate that percentage. Confounding are those impediments, which may be eroded by various mechanisms.
People can easily lie on the internet (especially anonymously on chans, seriously). People can keep silent. You're taking anecdotical evidence, of very poor quality at that, as some sort of argument.
The rest of your post is stuff I've addressed elsewhere, but I really want to know how much chan experience you've got. Because I can speak authoritatively on the average chan-goer from experience. I know them. I know the culture. It's less anecdotal, more "I'm an expert on the subject." (Edit the second: And yes, despite what you might complain about, "I've lived among these people for years" is a very good reason to say I know them quite well.)
People can lie when they're anonymous. But anonymity brings with it the freedom to tell the truths you couldn't say otherwise. Free them even from artificial personae and you see their true selves, the selves they can't bring themselves to show even when reduced to a name they chose themselves with no connection to their real names, because even with this sobriquet comes identity—and an anonymous user has no name, no assigned or chosen moniker. Merely their voice.
the worst thing about porn is probably the lives of all the millions of girls whose lives are degraded and cast away in the process of producing it, and the objectification of women.
When the phenomenon is taken to the extreme, it's pitiful and laughable:
Many religious folk believe pornography to be sinful or wrong. Mostly because it entails one of the seven deadly sins known as Lust. Which involves themes such as adultery and indulgence.
Is there some kind of substantial proof that watching pornography is disadvantageous to our mental state? Let's pretend that the viewing of pornography is NOT being tied to adultery or losing intimacy with a significant other where it's obvious that it's harmful to everyone involved. Do non-religious people have morals that entail going against pornographic material? Is it considered taboo in more American or European cultures than ones based on religion? Is there proof that pornography has significant benefits?
I have my own opinion on this subject, but I feel like I would cheapen the debate if I just came out and said my feelings on the subject and made it look like I was grand standing or being hypocritical. So feel free to post your thoughts below.
monkeys=kids.
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
and acts without effort.
Teaching without verbosity,
producing without possessing,
creating without regard to result,
claiming nothing,
the Sage has nothing to lose.
"In a world where money talks, silence is horrifying."
Ashcoat Bear of Limited
Ok, let me play devils advocate, even though I expressly said let's assume this isn't a family situation. If you have children, why is it a bad thing for them to learn about sex through pornography? Most of the time, the parents arn't going to discuss sex willingly with their kids, and the school systems are draconic in their approach to sex anyway. So again, why is pornography considered bad?
So are most forms of comedy bad for society?
Okay, now that the middle-aged people are out of the audience with the children and teenagers raptly enthralled, let's get started:
The basic taboo simply comes from the puritanical heritage of the United States. Pornography itself doesn't really do much that's bad outside of negative stereotyping (mostly with trans people, which is why "shemale" is the worst thing you can call them, but also with most sexual stereotypes to lesser degrees). There's also the unrealistic expectations about sex that young men apparently get from porn. But again, none of this is inherent to pornography itself so much as it is a part of the mainstream porn industry (to counter my two examples from before: it's painfully easy to find non-exploitive transgender porn, and homemade videos are a staple porn archetype). Using "it's demeaning" or "it's exploitive" as an argument against porn is like using a Hollywood-specific argument against cinema.
Personally, I find social relaxation of sexual taboo to be much healthier than the relaxation of taboos against violence—two people having consensual sex is somehow "worse" to show than two people fighting to the death? There's nothing really wrong with sex, at least the way I see it, since it's a much more universal human desire than violence. Plus it's much more fun. And just as violent movies/games/etc are the DIY version of sating violent desires, porn facilitates the DIY (or rather DYY) version of sating sexual desires. So there's really no reason to have one be okay and moral enough for religious purposes and have the other be some kind of great taboo.
The other argument, alluded to above, is that porn opens you up to the "sin" of masturbation (Onanism, to make it sound fancy, which is also where the Japanese term "onanie" comes from—yes, I just happen to know this offhand), the actual biblical validity of which is suspect at best. But it should be fairly obvious that dealing with your sexual desires by masturbating is a hell of a lot healthier, mentally speaking, than trying to bury them and having the frustration seep into other areas of your life. But again, the major objection here stems from puritanical influence with choosy interpretations of the bible rather than anything concrete.
I'm actually going to go off on a tangent largely because it's an effect that I find interesting. This is where it gets trippy.
To get started, I want it noted I frequent a lot of *chan boards. I'm a regular on certain ones you'd never expect me to be on (I go by the name Anonymous; you may have seen some of my posts). So obviously, I see a lot of porn (usually hentai) just casually. And I consider myself fairly desensitized to it. Someone starts an otherwise serious thread with a hentai image because an image upload is required for the OP, and I don't even blink. I'm also largely unfazed by almost all the content on /d/ (yes, I am a /d/eviant, haters gonna hate). You'd be surprised at the quality of discussion you can get on there, especially with regards to niche subjects like just where these weird fetishes come from (and I'm talking truly "out there" stuff that would probably be disturbing to "normal" people, like vore, amputee fetishism, etc). The argument I tend to side with is simple: With greater freedom and less taboo and restriction, the more people can safely explore their own sexuality. You see increasing numbers of people experimenting with fetishes they'd never consider otherwise, and you see people accepting more casual breaks in gender binaries and greyer sexual orientation (if you want to see both effects in action, find a "trap" thread).
And you know what? These people living lives full of what a religious perspective would call "sexual excess" tend to have very good separation of fantasy and reality. None of them would ever want to enact them in real life—on the contrary, they find people who actually do these things in real life to be abhorrent. But they're free to engage in these fantasies in a safe setting with people who share their fetishes. They're just doing what comes naturally. By and large, they're very intelligent, stable, and actually quite nice (outside of /b/, which is a cesspool and thus doesn't count).
Digression: You ever wonder how I can speak intelligently about basically any subject? Now you know. It's something that does require more effort on my part than simply reading and theorycrafying. For example, the gender/sexuality stuff in other threads is more personal experience than anything else, but filtered through intelligent discussion with other knowledgeable people drawing upon all our collective experiences.
On a personal note, in answer to Kraken's question of whether it's bad to teach children about sex by pornography: Most of my sex ed as a teenager was through the Internet. Sure, I got the basic "boys have penises and girls have vaginas" oversimplification in school (and that summation is at best laughably incorrect, and at worst a dangerous and hurtful lie, but that's an argument for another thread), yet the overall education, ranging from specific techniques to related things like fetishes and lifestyles came from the most sex-positive place in the world: the Internet. I consider myself a child of the Internet, and I turned out just fine.
Hey, you in the peanut gallery: Shut up.
Anyway, my whole point is that when you drop the taboos centred around sex, you wind up with people who are simply different than normal. In many ways they're healthier and more well-adjusted. There's nothing inherently bad about being different, but the fear of difference, the fear of the unknown, drives people towards heteronormativity. They hear that these people are filthy, dirty deviants, and rather than see what's actually going on, they just accept it because that's part of human psychology. That's why you get knee-jerk reactions to sex and porn: Someone in authority said a long time ago that it's bad, so for the sake of tradition let's keep condemning it without even thinking about it, using circular arguments such as "sex and porn are bad because they're immoral" leading into "you're immoral because you're sex- and porn-positive." No one ever bothers to explain it.
tl;dr Pornography is just an extension of lowering the taboo over sex and when you take that away you're left with a set of morals and world views that aren't any worse than when the taboo is there. On the contrary, I'm proud to be who and what I am, and am thankful for what the Internet (and porn) have given me as a person.
Also, despite me having a reputation for being a "yaoi fangirl," I should admit the actual amount of BL I read/watch is surprisingly low (although I do have several series queued up I need to go through).
That being said, this isn't just the kids world. Kids don't pay my credit card or my internet bills (or anything useful for the most part, I know exceptions are out there), plus I dont think over-sheltering kids is helpful. We can PROTECT them from physical harm, from hunger and from the elements but outside of that its sheltering. This is coming from one who was over-sheltered as a child if that makes a difference.
Oh, I don't have a source handy but apparently masterbation (sic?) at least 4 times a week reduces the risk prostate cancer by like 66%. Literrally "clean the pipes."
And according to the show "Penn & Teller B.S!" States with higher internet use per capita have lower rates of rape than the ones with less internet use per capita. That isn't proof of anything but many anti-porn cursaders willl claim that porn encourages rape, but thats just a lie. Not unlike the big book of lies most of them love so very much
Anyone who thinks sex can't be addictive is doing it wrong
Do you feel the recent invasion of /d/ with 90% androgynous images is a good thing or a bad thing for what /d/ is allegedly meant for? I've noticed your opinion in regards to sexuality and it's gray areas is very liberal. Personally I feel people are going to post what they are going to post, so if futanari is the "in" right now, then that's what you're gonna see. I was just curious as to your opinion.
I'm totally not a fan of futanari, but I'm not going to pretend it's somehow against what the board was originally intended for (leaving aside that "/d/ is for /d/ickgirls" slogan people throw around). I used to be into it but I'm finding actual trans women are better for that particular fetish. Anyway, just because it's not my cup of tea doesn't mean I'll crusade against it or anything. Course, you said "androgynous" and my first thought was, "hey, genderqueer is awesome" but that's totally something else.
Also, just so people can get some perspective: You said my views are very liberal, but I don't actually see them along liberal/conservative lines, myself. I just see them as natural, and that this level of acceptance of others is just basic human decency. It's the same reason for why I see sexuality and gender as basically nothing but grey areas: I don't see why silly little labels should be allowed to define them.
Edit:
This is pretty much the reason why I rarely discuss it when it's not actually relevant. Unless you've got the misfortune to be one of my friends, in which case you learn very quickly that I make a lot of spectacularly perverted jokes (people on this forum usually only hear me in academic or argumentative modes, which I've heard can be a bit jarring when I shift away from them, ref. that one thread where I argued against sexualized Magic art and then later made a rainbow party joke). Basically it's just another subject, subject to the wheres and whens of it being appropriate, but fair game for humour when it's just me and my friends (except that I leave the trans jokes to the trans people in my group of friends as a respect thing).
And as for marrying at 20, good lord. I'm 23 and I don't see myself getting married until I'm around 30 at least—but then again sex and marriage are two totally different things in my mind, unlike those classmates of yours.
You didn't say that. What you said is avoiding things like adultery and harming the significant other, but nothing about children.
Note that I never said anything about porn being bad. However, any activity that I am uncomfortable with children emulating is an activity that isn't exactly good, either. I like porn, though, whatever its morality.
Pornography does not teach responsibility nor offers any realistic representation of sex. No one gets pregnant (well, except for some fetish porn), no one has an STD, sex is always great, grabbing a woman by the hair to your crotch turns her on, anything below 8 inches is tiny, etc.
If you want to get to the root of why porn is bad, try to figure out why sex itself is considered a taboo topic (not that I think it is bad, just pointing out a direction of thought). Pornography is a representation of sex, and since sex itself makes people squirmy, so does pornography.
Because of, or inspite of?
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
"In a world where money talks, silence is horrifying."
Ashcoat Bear of Limited
I noted above but I'm repeating for sake of visibility: These are only problems with the mainstream porn industry, not porn as a whole. Homemade videos showing regular people having regular sex are actually very common.
You can also avert the "it's unrealistic" factor fairly easily with proper, upfront education. Personal example very highly summarized: "That doesn't look very fun for the woman..." "That's because it's unrealistic since x, y, and z. In reality, you a, b, and c." "Oh. That sounds much more fun."
I wasn't aware that I had to lay out every single member of the family beyond significant other in order to avoid you using a cop out like the children, your aunt, uncle, cousins, nephews, nieces and grandparents as an argument against pornography.
So no, I may not have said a family matter in it's completeness, but you still have failed to do anything other than throw a red herring into a debate I already requested we take out other aspects that could harm other people beyond yourself from this discussion.
Sounds like to me you weren't actually interested in debate. You just wanted to chime in "Save the children!~ I'm out". Well mission accomplished. Consider yourself a paragon of child safety. Here's a gold star.
It's like you said, actual education of real life examples of sexuality is a more common sense model to stand by.
So I guess through a logical stand point, the porn industry itself can stand as is. Kids know where to find the stuff whether their parents are in control or not. But what IS important is letting the kids know that what they see in porn is not what happens in real life. Almost like television, or video games. It's basically just as normal a part of life as either of those two anyway.
Fun fact: The reason I got so much into yaoi and hentai and etc to begin with it because it wasn't blocked by the internet filter I had to deal with at the time and navigating Japanese sites was easier than hacking my way past it.
So yeah, an adolescent's sex drive will generally overcome any attempts to control it. Better to point it in the right direction and let the problem take care of itself.
Care to refute what I said rather than "oh, he just gave a knee jerk reaction, ignore him"?
I have no problem with sex education to children, so I'm not sure where this sentiment came from. Pornography can be education, but that's not its purpose, and is more often a source of _miseducation_.
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
What exactly did you say that was worth refuting? lol. You haven't added anything to the conversation.
See, I'll even give you a conscious effort.
We are in agreement with this. I don't see where I disagreed, refutation is unnecessary. Does this answer the question as to whether or not pornography is bad? I don't think so. You added nothing.
We know why sex is considered a taboo topic. It's mostly based in religion. However, I left my original post open to those who were not religious to give reasoning as to why they believe pornography is bad. Once again, we are in agreement.
There's nothing to refute here. What do you want me to do? Continue bashing you because you made a knee jerk reaction? You haven't told me you disagree with pornography, but you haven't told me how hiding porn from children is a benefit to kids either. So I'm waiting for you to actually explain your position regarding kids and porn before we can go any further.
I think I'm living proof that to an intelligent person it's not miseducation in the slightest.
But then again my idea of porn isn't limited to mainstream mass-market titles that are total crap from start to finish. And I'm not saying "watching porn is education in and of itself" so much as "a sex- and porn-positive upbringing is more educational and beneficial than constructing taboos around both." But again, this only works when your horizons are expanded past simple mainstream jerk films.
You haven't, either. You made a topic, but have said nothing of substance. Serveral attacks, but nothing intellgent.
I answered your previous question.At this point given that you are saying that I haven't contributed anything, it is apparent that you already have an opinion on the matter (which you haven't stated), and blast anyone who don't think the same way as you do or capable of reading your mind.
Good job. Nice ninja edit as well.
Like I asked: it it because of, or inspite of? Are you an upstanding person because of porn, or are you an upstanding person despite of porn? The difference is important. Because of would imply that porn is a good thing. Inspite of is the opposite.
It is also a matter of anecdotal evidence.
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
Look, I think you need to take a deep breathe, step back, and reevaluate the situation. I'm purposefully not stating my exact position on the matter because to do so would put me on a pedestal of "This is my opinion, I think I'm right, and all of you who disagree with me are morons so I'm gonna pick a fight now".
I made this thread with the intention of learning other peoples thoughts as to why they think pornography is bad. You made a knee jerk reaction seeing a loop hole when I said "significant other" but didn't mention children, and you used it as a cop out.
I want actual, substantial reasons as to why pornography is bad. Why is pornography harmful to children? So far you've let us know that bad sex education has a negative effect on children, which is true. But why is PORNOGRAPHY at fault? Explain your position.
I edited my post because you edited your previous post and added more to it. As a matter of fact, you keep on editing your posts repeatedly adding new content after I've already quoted you. Pot, meet kettle. Are we going to continue on this yellow brick road or are you going to actually defend your position yet?
You know, I would absolutely love if pornographic film industries started running WWE-esque vignettes telling viewers not to try this at home. Epic epic lulz.
It's definitely because of it. Pornography (again, including mainstream porn, BL, hentai, slash fiction, and everything else) did a much better job of giving me a broader understanding of sexuality than anything else in my life. With greater exposure to difference comes higher tolerance/acceptance of these differences. Even with things that I used to look at as being completely and utterly weird and incomprehensible, talking to people who are into them helped me understand the appeal even if I didn't share their enthusiasm.
Valuable lessons all around, not just of sex but also of tolerance and acceptance.
There are also a fair number of studios run by the women appearing in the films. It's not all misogynistic and racist even among the mainstream. That falls mostly under the lowbrow stuff aimed at the working class—see also the difference between Playboy and Penthouse. The former was until recently a very respectable publication in which many article and short story writers would take pride in being published. The latter was always aimed more at guys who just want a quick wank.
The greatest misogyny is assuming that women shouldn't be allowed to choose if they want to be in porn or not. It's her body, therefore it's her decision.
Edit:
The rest of your post is stuff I've addressed elsewhere, but I really want to know how much chan experience you've got. Because I can speak authoritatively on the average chan-goer from experience. I know them. I know the culture. It's less anecdotal, more "I'm an expert on the subject." (Edit the second: And yes, despite what you might complain about, "I've lived among these people for years" is a very good reason to say I know them quite well.)
People can lie when they're anonymous. But anonymity brings with it the freedom to tell the truths you couldn't say otherwise. Free them even from artificial personae and you see their true selves, the selves they can't bring themselves to show even when reduced to a name they chose themselves with no connection to their real names, because even with this sobriquet comes identity—and an anonymous user has no name, no assigned or chosen moniker. Merely their voice.
If we had no porn SOME people in this world might instead go and rape someone. I think pornography is fine.
LOL
When the phenomenon is taken to the extreme, it's pitiful and laughable:
NSFW link removed.