The big deal is that he didn't have to go through with it, and could have just gone right up to heaven without all the torture, and left us all here to be screwed over and not resurrect.
I'm not sure that's true. I've read about far more horrible punishments(impalement). And some have been used by the Romans, such as their punishment for patricide. It seems to me that their punishment for patricide is more degrading and painful than crucifixion. Though it doesn't take as long. I'm also pretty sure Caligula and Nero would have been able to come up with even more cruel, degrading and painful punishments.
Well, crusifixion takes quite long, and at some point, things just don't get any more painful. The term "excruciating" is derived from it, so it must be pretty bad, right!?
Another important element in it, is that it was concidered the most shameful/humiliating way to die. Also, crucifixion was forbidden by Jewish laws, so to execute the "King of the Jews" this way was -litterally- adding insult to injury.
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From my readings and interpretations, my honest belief is that if one believes that Jesus was the son of an altruistic God, then he really had no good alternative other than to allow the crucifixion to happen. If he knew the prophecies of his death, and that his demise would save mankind, then any choice other than submitting to torture and death would have been completely inconsistent with his character. Sure, he had a choice, but he also had a choice while being tempted by Satan, and yet he did not acquiesce because he would not commit any act he felt would be sinful. While not an exact sin, choosing to ignore his purpose on earth would have certainly diminished the idea that he was the Messiah. The big deal, of course, is that he was so dedicated to his belief and love for mankind that he would allow such a horrible fate when he did have alternatives. They weren't acceptable alternatives to him. It's a bit like civil disobedience - you allow yourself to face punishment for an altruistic goal, even if it doesn't benefit you in the short term. It's a big deal because the son of God surely had other choices than to die, but refused any other path in order to save humanity.
Personally, I think people are drawn to it because it's a powerful icon and it's smashed into their skulls by preachers depending on where they live. I've been shocked moving to the South - there is no concept of God's grace, just endless songs about the blood of Jesus (on Christmas? He's just born and you've got him jumping on the cross already).
I'm not sure that's true. I've read about far more horrible punishments(impalement). And some have been used by the Romans, such as their punishment for patricide. It seems to me that their punishment for patricide is more degrading and painful than crucifixion. Though it doesn't take as long. I'm also pretty sure Caligula and Nero would have been able to come up with even more cruel, degrading and painful punishments.
it isn't true, infact, Crucifixion was the main way to kill prisoners of the time, it would be a common as lethal injection is now(not that I mean it happens all the time, but it is the preffered method of the death centence)
Let's imagine that you're given 100% certainty beyond anything attained by faith alone that God exists as per the New Testament and that if you (playing the role of Jesus in this hypothetical scenario) agree to endure three or four days of the most horrific torture and humiliation imaginable, you will afterward spend the rest of eternity in Heaven at the right hand of God.
It wasn't a video game or a quid pro quo scenario. It's not like Jesus and God drafted a contract. To know it was your destiny to be tortured and then die over faith requires incredible strength of will.
The pain is horrible enough. Jesus was nailed by both hands and feet and suspended with a crown of thorns on his head, and poked with a spear. Even if you don't believe in Christianity, the idea that Jesus could go through physical pain (hopefully) none of us here will ever have to go through and then be forgiving at the end of it is in itself something magnificent.
You also have to consider what exactly Jesus did in the Christian faith. Jesus removed original sin. That means Jesus took the world's sin upon himself and willingly died as a sacrifice to cleanse humanity of it. You act as though Jesus did this for his own benefit, but He didn't. He performed the most altruistic action anyone could ever perform.
This is an interesting thread, and it brings me to ask a question I often wonder about. My sphere of experience includes something of a theological melting pot. I grew up in a strongly Baptist environment, and my dad is a theological scholar, so I have heard a number of theories about why Jesus sacrificed himself, what happened because of it, what would have happened had he not done it, and so on.
Here is my question. What are some of the theories as to why Jesus sacrificed himself, and what was the result of this sacrifice?
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This is an interesting thread, and it brings me to ask a question I often wonder about. My sphere of experience includes something of a theological melting pot. I grew up in a strongly Baptist environment, and my dad is a theological scholar, so I have heard a number of theories about why Jesus sacrificed himself, what happened because of it, what would have happened had he not done it, and so on.
Here is my question. What are some of the theories as to why Jesus sacrificed himself, and what was the result of this sacrifice?
I really need to study theology. Part of the reason I've hesitated to express belief in any faith is the idea that there is just so much about all religions, including Christianity, I just don't know.
I'd like to ask your dad question, or rather a multiple questions:
1. How literal an interpretation of the Bible does he go on?
2. Does he accept the story of Jesus as fact, or does he even think of religion in terms of "fact"?
By that I mean in many religions, there is present a sort of duality, people both do not believe in religious doctrines literally, yet still keep faith. How does this work?
3. Has your dad ever studied other religions, and does such a thing conflict with Christianity? That is, if Christ stated the only path to God was through Him, is there actually a way to reconcile this concept with other religions?
You also have to consider what exactly Jesus did in the Christian faith. Jesus removed original sin. That means Jesus took the world's sin upon himself and willingly died as a sacrifice to cleanse humanity of it. You act as though Jesus did this for his own benefit, but He didn't. He performed the most altruistic action anyone could ever perform.
Exactly. It's not a cause and effect. It's not "because Jesus allowed himself to be crucified, he recieved reward." If Jesus was the Messiah, then regardless of whether he went through with the crucifixion or not, he would go to heaven. His actions on that one day would not contradict an entire lifetime devoted to teaching God's will. It would be hard to believe that he wouldn't go to heaven regardless. On the other hand, if Jesus wasn't the Messiah, if he was a false prophet making up his own rules, he would go to hell regardless of his martyrdom. So the premise that Jesus went to heaven because of the crucifixion and only because of it seems absurd.
Yeah. When you take out the "heaven/hell" issue, it almost approaches something sounding like tautology, though not exactly.
"What's the big deal about God protecting the Israelites? If I were omniscient, powerful, benevolent, and had a covenant with the people who accept my revelation, I could do the same thing."
"What's the big deal about winning NASCAR? If I was a great driver, with an awesome car and crew, and sufficient funding, and good health, and I had the drive and determination to win, I could win as well. No big deal."
Exactly. It's not a cause and effect. It's not "because Jesus allowed himself to be crucified, he recieved reward." If Jesus was the Messiah, then regardless of whether he went through with the crucifixion or not, he would go to heaven. His actions on that one day would not contradict an entire lifetime devoted to teaching God's will. It would be hard to believe that he wouldn't go to heaven regardless. On the other hand, if Jesus wasn't the Messiah, if he was a false prophet making up his own rules, he would go to hell regardless of his martyrdom. So the premise that Jesus went to heaven because of the crucifixion and only because of it seems absurd.
The nitpick I have with that statement is that if Jesus wasn't crucified, He would not have been the Messiah in the first place.
Impalement is almost certainly more painful, though probably not used at that time. Their punishment for patricide, however, was: whipping the naked murderer in front of a crowd until it was impossible to make out the difference between raw flesh and blood. Then he was sewn into an airproof bag with 4 other animals, who would have to torment him for as long as possible. Then he was thrown into the river Tiber and guards set out at the banks had to keep the bag above water so the torment would take long enough. Both are very painful and degrading, so I'm not so sure crucifixion was the actual worst punishment of those times. (Of course, Jesus didn't kill his father, but if the jews were able to get him convicted to crucifixion, they would also be able to let him be tortured like that.)
Just a question, not so much a criticism of you, Mad Mat, as this discussion as a whole:
Why the hell are we arguing over which Roman torture is more painful?
He was held up in the air, suspended only by nails in each of His limbs, and with a crown of thorns digging into His scalp. Prior to that He was whipped and forced to carry the cross He was to be crucified on.
That hurts. I assume we can at least all agree on that.
Anyone willing to put themselves through that is worth having a couple of biographies written about Him, at least.
You also have to consider what exactly Jesus did in the Christian faith. Jesus removed original sin. That means Jesus took the world's sin upon himself and willingly died as a sacrifice to cleanse humanity of it. You act as though Jesus did this for his own benefit, but He didn't. He performed the most altruistic action anyone could ever perform.
This is another part of the whole thing that makes no sense to me. How could Jesus, a supposedly sinless human being, dying "cleanse" humanity of sin? How is that in any way just? If a friend of mine raped a 10 year old girl and I decided to take the fall for him as an act of kindness, is that justice? Or is it rather a tragic farce of justice?
Because it was stated as if crucifixion is the most degrading and painful punishment, which it may not be. Though it was a nitpick, it may matter for the symbolicness of the act.
No, I get that, I'm just curious why it even matters. The man died.
This is another part of the whole thing that makes no sense to me. How could Jesus, a supposedly sinless human being, dying "cleanse" humanity of sin? How is that in any way just? If a friend of mine raped a 10 year old girl and I decided to take the fall for him as an act of kindness, is that justice? Or is it rather a tragic farce of justice?
The situations are hardly the same. In your case you are not actually absolving the man from sin. You are lying to prevent him from being harmed at the hands of a worldly authority. That's not the same as what Jesus did. Jesus took on the sins of the world and died to cleanse the world of it.
- Is a sarifice less valuable when there is a huge payoff?
What if the payoff totally negates the sacrifice or makes it effectively irrelevant.
- if his act is not a sacrifice, but just an act, should we not be happy with the payoff?
I think we should. We should say, "thanks Jesus for doing that so we have a shot at Heaven!" But idolizing him (literally, doesn't the Christian obsession with the crusafix constitute worshiping a graven image?) for it seems extreme. I mean he did something that was for all practical purposes, no problem.
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The big deal is that he didn't have to go through with it, and could have just gone right up to heaven without all the torture, and left us all here to be screwed over and not resurrect.
Yeah, but in the context of eternal life in Heaven, the whole torture and death thing was such a non-issue that it's like someone coming up to you and saying, "me and my whole family will die if you don't take out the garbage today." Now, they'll obviously be stoked when you take out the garbage, but you'd have to be a total jerk, like a proactively jerky person, to not take out the garbage that day. Yes, I know that torture and crusafixion sucks a lot more than taking out the garbage, but compared to eternity in Heaven, they're really not so different.
[qutoe=Highroller]To know it was your destiny to be tortured and then die over faith requires incredible strength of will.[/quote]Not if you know that it's also your destiny to spend eternity in Heaven after your tortured and die. Compared to eternity in Heaven a few days of torture and death are totally irrelevant. It doesn't take much strength of will to do something that's totally irrelevant, just a little patience.
the idea that Jesus could go through physical pain (hopefully) none of us here will ever have to go through and then be forgiving at the end of it is in itself something magnificent.
It's easy to be forgiving when you won the ultimate jackpot in the Universe. I'm not saying Jesus died on the cross for self-serving reasons, I'm just saying that in the context of eternity in Heaven, dying on the cross is nothing to get excited about.
He performed the most altruistic action anyone could ever perform.
This may be getting into a bigger moral debate, but can your actions be measured as altruistic if they come at no (or negligible) cost to you? Evolutionary biologists, I know, would answer "no" since they define "altruism" as an action that increases the potential for survival of another at the expense of your own potential for survival. Obviously this definition would need to be modified to encompass an after-life in the cost-benefit analysis.
[qutoe=ICTimer]It would be hard to believe that he wouldn't go to heaven regardless. On the other hand, if Jesus wasn't the Messiah, if he was a false prophet making up his own rules, he would go to hell regardless of his martyrdom.[/quote]So Jesus could've been a mass-murdering sexual deviant
and he still would've gotten into Heaven because he was the son of God? Talk about absurd.
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Yeah. When you take out the "heaven/hell" issue, it almost approaches something sounding like tautology, though not exactly.
Since the "heaven/hell" issue is the point of the question, removing it makes the question:
"If you knew you were going to be tortured horribly and die, would you try to avoid it?"
Which is a dumb question.
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EEEEWWW boy, i don't even know where to begin with this thread at all. Just a little bit of background. I have put in about 15 years of bible study myself. I could probably get a degree in theology and have thought about doing so. So I am going to answer most or try to answer most of the points here. If anyone has any peticular questions please feel free to IM me. This is going to be mostly from study, interpretation, and questions i have asked myself.
First off the trinity. It is hard to understand because we do not think on terms of infinity we can't grasp something that has no beginning or end. No one created the trinity they have always existed. They have no begining or end.
Next question that came up why did Christ die. To reclaim back to God the Father what he created. Here is the link. It starts in Genisis. The world belonged to God. He pasted the domain to adam. when adam and eve allowed sin into the world and death they passed it to satan.
There was a disconnection between God and man that He tried to reconnect with in the old covenant. Of course us not being perfect could not hold up our end. Another thing that you have to realize is that God is a perfect being He knows no fault and can see no sin (will prove this later).
We will take a look at Christs life. He was not a normal man. He was the son in the flesh but not of the flesh. Meaning while He was physically here He was not born into it. If he would have had a normal birth He would have been born into sin and the game would have been over. There had to be a perfect sacrifice in order for this to work. The tempation of Christ by satan was important. If satan approached Christ as the Son of God he didn't stand a chance however if he approached Christ as the Son of Man then he could tempt him to rid himself of his divinity and sin.
However Christ was still limited by his human body he suffered hunger and weather like everyone else. even though he was above normal levels in the flesh (30 days without food or water in a desert is impossible) it was the connection to God that sustained him.
Did Christ know that he was going to die. Yes He did. On the mount of olives He prayed that the cup would pass from Him because He knew what He was going to go through. However He said not my will but yours. If he had said I am not going to do this He would have sinned game over. Did He know what was going to come after. Probably but that doesn't make it any easier to get from point A to B.
As someone stated anyone would do that. are you so sure. if someone said if you go through this gauntlet of fire, razors, spikes, arrows, whips, beatings, for 3 hours straight you can have the ultimate prize would you do it? The greater the suffering the greater the glory.
Christs spiritual purpose of the cross.
The spiritual purpose of the cross was to bring a new covenant to man. Only this time the covenant was through Christ and God. It is hard to imagine the physical pain that Christ went through the spiritual pain was much worse than you think. Here is where I prove what I was saying up above. Christ spiritual death on the cross was the ultimate punishment. He took up on Himself the sins of the world but not just the sins of that time. From that time till the end of the world.
We do not know when this world will end however it is already 2006 so imagine all the sins that has been committed so far. In this act Christ was cut off from the Father. My God My God why has thou forsaken me. God not being able to look upon sin turned His back from His own son. For the first time in enterinty Christ did not have the connection to the Father. That right there probably caused Him more pain than anything.
Now Christs physical death. For this we need to look at several factors which is why this is recorded and still known today. Had Christs death been a simple affair it would have gone unnoticed. However it is recorded as one of the most brutal executions of all time.
At first glance they started with the beating and ripping his beard out (which means skin was removed). Secondly He was scourged 30 times. A normal human being lasted about 10 before they died if that. The cat of nine tails was a brutal weapon. 9 strips of leather with metal, bone, glass and any other sharp object put into it would bite into the person then rip the flesh from him. After that a crown of thorns was jammed onto his head which dug into His forehead. He was then made to carry a cross. This cross weighted about 60 to 80 pounds and was solid wood. On top of this he was beaten along the way. The treck to galgotha is a long road and mostly uphill towards the end.
The robe was removed which would have reopened any of the wounds that had closed and glued the robe to him. He was laid down and nailed hands and feet (only reserved for the worst of the worst). The cross was not simply placed in the hole however. The would raise it up and then it would slide down into the hole about 3 or 4 ft that would have jarred him even more ripping more flesh from the nails.
Now for the part that I believe which most people would argue with in hatred. Where did Christ go after His death and what is significant about 3 days. There are many numbers given in the bible 7 for instance is the number of perfection. 6 is the number of man or imperfection. 3 is the number of completion. Now back to where Christ went. After adam and eve sinned they past domion of the earth to satan who had control of life and death. When Christ died with all that sin He had to rid himself of it. So with His new authority rent the keys of death from satan while depositing all the sin in hell. He then spent the rest of His time in paradise waiting. paradise is not heaven. it is a holding place for the old testament saints and people before the crusifixtion until that time they are brought forth and called up.
Christ made the sacrifice because we are not able to. we all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Christ did not He was the perfect sacrifice with the authority to do what He did.
again if anyone has any specific questions please feel free to im me will answer them with the best of my ability. I think this should clear up a lot of reasons of why how and what for.
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Framing the issue like [in that cartoon from the first page] sure makes it sound laughable, but it remains inaccurate. God is not sacrificing himself to anything, least of all himself. What's more, he's not changing any rules beyond the unspoken one that God can not be humbled.
What the crucifixion does is pay a debt that humans can not pay on their own. It takes care of the insult to divine honor that sin constitutes (which insult can not be atoned-for in a non-divine way, unfortunately), and frees up the average person to atone for the substantive rather than the abstract.
What I've always wondered, and never seen a good answer for, is why, if God's intention is to atone for our sins for us, he can't you know... simply make them be atoned.
He is God, isn't he?
If his goal is to "save" all humans, I see no necessity of a sacrifice. I see no necessity for God to do anything except to simply forgive them all. I also see no reason why one should have to believe in God (for anyone reading this who thinks so) or anything like that. God is perfectly capable of bypassing the entire Christian religion - there is nothing necessary about it.
Personally, to me it seems unnecessary convoluted and incredible ("incredible" here meaning "so implausible as to elicit disbelief").
read my post above contains a lot of the answers to the questions you asked.
short version. God is perfect and cannot look upon sin. The priests in the old testament sacrificed lambs or other animals for a blood sacrifice for the attonment of sin of the people. Its the blood that Christ spilt that hides the sin that we commit. Its through His blood that we are attoned for our sin.
Could God do that without sacrifice I am sure He could have. He could have stopped sin to begin with. He knows what was going to happen before it did. Ya can't fool someone who already knows the future its not a surprise to Him. However if He was to do that it would have negated the use for our free will. He gave us the ability to choose.
think of it this way. you are married is you wife going to love you more if you give her the choice or if you hold a gun constantly to her head and say you will love me? i think the former is more correct.
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The situations are hardly the same. In your case you are not actually absolving the man from sin. You are lying to prevent him from being harmed at the hands of a worldly authority.
By "take the fall" I meant take the punishment, not necessarily the blame. There's no lying necessary.
]That's not the same as what Jesus did. Jesus took on the sins of the world and died to cleanse the world of it.
Again, how does Jesus dying "cleanse" the world of sin? AFAIK, Christians don't claim the Earth is a totally sinless place these days. I still don't see how this isn't analagous to my hypothetical. Jesus takes the punishment for your crime. How is that just, even if he took it on voluntarily?
Even though God already knows the past, present and future, He does not interfere with the events. He stands outside the bounderies of time and space to an infinite level. To best discribe it with in reason. It would be like seeing the future in a mirror but not able to change it.
In His case he could if He wanted to however that would go against free will. That however does not stop Him from allowing circumstances to test us. The biggest reason people turn toward religion is that it gives them something bigger than ourselves that is in control. Think how small you are compared to the world in general and that is a spec of dust on the back of the universe. to say i am the greatest thing around leaves you no where to turn when situations get out of your control. Being able to lean on a being who is larger than the universe that He holds the stars in the palm of His hand is just huge. Given knowledge that when I die there is something better than here is just great. Read the last chapters of revalation. it describes in detail what heaven will be like.
gmontag. think of it this way. you have a son or daughter who is lost or captured. they only way to save them is to sacrifice yourself. that is what it comes down to. Christ sacrificed himself to save His children. From the children born then till the end of time.
read my post above contains a lot of the answers to the questions you asked.
Well, I didn't see any answers to my questions, but ok.
short version. God is perfect and cannot look upon sin.
Why not?
I can't think of any reason why an omnipotent being would be unable to "look upon sin".
The priests in the old testament sacrificed lambs or other animals for a blood sacrifice for the attonment of sin of the people. Its the blood that Christ spilt that hides the sin that we commit. Its through His blood that we are attoned for our sin.
Yes, and my question was getting at the whole idea of why any sacrifices were necessary. God does not need to for people to kill animals to forgive them anymore than we do, in fact, it would be absurd for someone to ask you to slaughter a goat so that they can forgive you. Same thing for Jesus's sacrifice.
Could God do that without sacrifice I am sure He could have.
Now you're getting it.
He could have stopped sin to begin with. He knows what was going to happen before it did. Ya can't fool someone who already knows the future its not a surprise to Him. However if He was to do that it would have negated the use for our free will. He gave us the ability to choose.
Our free will has nothing to do with my question. My question was about why Jesus was necessary for God to forgive our sins. Him forgiving us does not involve our free will.
And even so, there could still be choice involved without needing any Jesus-sacrifice.
think of it this way. you are married is you wife going to love you more if you give her the choice or if you hold a gun constantly to her head and say you will love me? i think the former is more correct.
Which choice would that be? Whether to love you? Or whether you go to heaven or hell?
Cuz in the latter case, it seems like God is actually holding a gun to your head, and the "choice" offered is whether you love him, and if you don't, he's going to pull the trigger.
You are thinking in terms of a human perspective. You are not thinking on the terms of a perfect God.
In order to understand this you have to put away the human perspective and think on a different level.
Think about it for just a second. I am a perfect being. Everything I create is perfect, everything I do is perfect, I know no flaws. Sin is an imperfection it is a blemish. Sin is what keeps you from being perfect. Take a picture like the mona lisa. lets say it is perfect. everyone enjoys it and loves it. now take a pen and mark it all up. it is no longer perfect it is blemished and scarred. that is as close as i can get how God views sin. That cannot be allowed in a perfect world. In fact it does not exist in a perfect world. that is why God turned His back on His son while He was on the cross.
For sacrifices you have to go back to genisis and the garden. after adam and eve sinned their eyes were opened and they knew they were naked. In order to clothe them God made the first sacrifice by killing an animal for them to make clothes from. Blood was the result. Innocent blood for that matter. It was a symbol of how far they fell. That they would have to take their best offerings and innocent blood be shed for their sins. of course this wouldn't work now adays could you imagine. so God needed the perfect blood sacrifice. that was His son.
Christs sacrifice was to pay the debt of sin which is death. now you have to understand what death means in the bible. death when mentioned in those terms is not a physical death but a spiritual death. death when mentioned especially in the new testament is the total spearation from God. Christs death eliminated that separation. The blood that He shed washes the sin away. By that means satan was stripped of the power that was given him by adam. death is no longer a factor.
God is giving you a choice. however with all choices come consequences. you can choose to go out and help someone. at the same time you can choose to go out and kill someone. the latter has consequences for the actions this is the same thing. if God was holding a gun to your head he never would have given you free will.
however He didn't want someone that was forced to love Him he already had that. He wanted someone to love Him just because for no reason. He wanted a creation that would praise Him of their own free nature.
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gmontag. think of it this way. you have a son or daughter who is lost or captured. they only way to save them is to sacrifice yourself. that is what it comes down to. Christ sacrificed himself to save His children. From the children born then till the end of time.
How? In what way were people "lost" before Christ died? In what way were they no longer "lost" after? How could Christ's death possibly effect this change?
First of all, I must agree with your assessment, BenGreen, that the humor in the way you posed your question was indeed an enormous flop. I found it rather offensive, and I've not been a Christian for circa 10 years and frankly I find the entire theology behind the crucifixion to be a ridiculous load of crap. But that's neither here nor there..
Second, there is a significant and frankly obvious flaw in your assessment, which I'm rather surprised no one has pointed out yet. Christ, even as a human, was fully divine. That means any time He felt like it, He could have simply vanished from Earth and gone back to Heaven. Case closed. Jesus didn't have to endure torture in order to gaurantee an eternal reward from God, He was God. He didn't need to endure any kind of pain in order to get the reward.
You are thinking in terms of a human perspective. You are not thinking on the terms of a perfect God.
Think about it for just a second. I am a perfect being. Everything I create is perfect, everything I do is perfect, I know no flaws. Sin is an imperfection it is a blemish. Sin is what keeps you from being perfect.
The thing here is, God created everything. Absolutely everything. God created humans, God created Satan, God created a universe that had the potential for the existence of evil as well as good. God created sin. And if God is perfect and everything He creates is perfect, then sin is also perfect. Imperfection is perfect.
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Before the cross there was really no way to attone for sin but by sacrifice. Before the cross there was the old covenant that was made with abraham which we could not live up to. Christs death on the cross paid for the old covenant and created a new covenant between God and Christ.
This new covenant is the salvation of man through Christs sacrifice. Christs perfect covenant protects us. Now when God looks at a christian even though he sins we are not yet perfect. He sees the blood of Christ as an attonment for that sin and forgiveness is granted to all that ask.
Now a serious point i will make. God did not make sin. God did not make satan. God created an angel and gave him power above all angels almost a free will to a certain extent. That angel wanted glory that was not his to have. so he rebeled and tried to set himself up as the creator. He was cast out with his followers. God did not create the devil the devil made himself.
A perfect God and creator cannot make sin. It is impossible.
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think of it this way. you are married is you wife going to love you more if you give her the choice or if you hold a gun constantly to her head and say you will love me? i think the former is more correct.
If you believe in Hell, this is the choice God appears to be giving us.
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Trade Thread
Well, crusifixion takes quite long, and at some point, things just don't get any more painful. The term "excruciating" is derived from it, so it must be pretty bad, right!?
Another important element in it, is that it was concidered the most shameful/humiliating way to die. Also, crucifixion was forbidden by Jewish laws, so to execute the "King of the Jews" this way was -litterally- adding insult to injury.
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Personally, I think people are drawn to it because it's a powerful icon and it's smashed into their skulls by preachers depending on where they live. I've been shocked moving to the South - there is no concept of God's grace, just endless songs about the blood of Jesus (on Christmas? He's just born and you've got him jumping on the cross already).
it isn't true, infact, Crucifixion was the main way to kill prisoners of the time, it would be a common as lethal injection is now(not that I mean it happens all the time, but it is the preffered method of the death centence)
Extendo
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It wasn't a video game or a quid pro quo scenario. It's not like Jesus and God drafted a contract. To know it was your destiny to be tortured and then die over faith requires incredible strength of will.
The pain is horrible enough. Jesus was nailed by both hands and feet and suspended with a crown of thorns on his head, and poked with a spear. Even if you don't believe in Christianity, the idea that Jesus could go through physical pain (hopefully) none of us here will ever have to go through and then be forgiving at the end of it is in itself something magnificent.
You also have to consider what exactly Jesus did in the Christian faith. Jesus removed original sin. That means Jesus took the world's sin upon himself and willingly died as a sacrifice to cleanse humanity of it. You act as though Jesus did this for his own benefit, but He didn't. He performed the most altruistic action anyone could ever perform.
Here is my question. What are some of the theories as to why Jesus sacrificed himself, and what was the result of this sacrifice?
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I really need to study theology. Part of the reason I've hesitated to express belief in any faith is the idea that there is just so much about all religions, including Christianity, I just don't know.
I'd like to ask your dad question, or rather a multiple questions:
1. How literal an interpretation of the Bible does he go on?
2. Does he accept the story of Jesus as fact, or does he even think of religion in terms of "fact"?
By that I mean in many religions, there is present a sort of duality, people both do not believe in religious doctrines literally, yet still keep faith. How does this work?
3. Has your dad ever studied other religions, and does such a thing conflict with Christianity? That is, if Christ stated the only path to God was through Him, is there actually a way to reconcile this concept with other religions?
Exactly. It's not a cause and effect. It's not "because Jesus allowed himself to be crucified, he recieved reward." If Jesus was the Messiah, then regardless of whether he went through with the crucifixion or not, he would go to heaven. His actions on that one day would not contradict an entire lifetime devoted to teaching God's will. It would be hard to believe that he wouldn't go to heaven regardless. On the other hand, if Jesus wasn't the Messiah, if he was a false prophet making up his own rules, he would go to hell regardless of his martyrdom. So the premise that Jesus went to heaven because of the crucifixion and only because of it seems absurd.
"What's the big deal about God protecting the Israelites? If I were omniscient, powerful, benevolent, and had a covenant with the people who accept my revelation, I could do the same thing."
"What's the big deal about winning NASCAR? If I was a great driver, with an awesome car and crew, and sufficient funding, and good health, and I had the drive and determination to win, I could win as well. No big deal."
The nitpick I have with that statement is that if Jesus wasn't crucified, He would not have been the Messiah in the first place.
Just a question, not so much a criticism of you, Mad Mat, as this discussion as a whole:
Why the hell are we arguing over which Roman torture is more painful?
He was held up in the air, suspended only by nails in each of His limbs, and with a crown of thorns digging into His scalp. Prior to that He was whipped and forced to carry the cross He was to be crucified on.
That hurts. I assume we can at least all agree on that.
Anyone willing to put themselves through that is worth having a couple of biographies written about Him, at least.
This is another part of the whole thing that makes no sense to me. How could Jesus, a supposedly sinless human being, dying "cleanse" humanity of sin? How is that in any way just? If a friend of mine raped a 10 year old girl and I decided to take the fall for him as an act of kindness, is that justice? Or is it rather a tragic farce of justice?
No, I get that, I'm just curious why it even matters. The man died.
The situations are hardly the same. In your case you are not actually absolving the man from sin. You are lying to prevent him from being harmed at the hands of a worldly authority. That's not the same as what Jesus did. Jesus took on the sins of the world and died to cleanse the world of it.
I think we should. We should say, "thanks Jesus for doing that so we have a shot at Heaven!" But idolizing him (literally, doesn't the Christian obsession with the crusafix constitute worshiping a graven image?) for it seems extreme. I mean he did something that was for all practical purposes, no problem.
Yeah, but in the context of eternal life in Heaven, the whole torture and death thing was such a non-issue that it's like someone coming up to you and saying, "me and my whole family will die if you don't take out the garbage today." Now, they'll obviously be stoked when you take out the garbage, but you'd have to be a total jerk, like a proactively jerky person, to not take out the garbage that day. Yes, I know that torture and crusafixion sucks a lot more than taking out the garbage, but compared to eternity in Heaven, they're really not so different.
[qutoe=Highroller]To know it was your destiny to be tortured and then die over faith requires incredible strength of will.[/quote]Not if you know that it's also your destiny to spend eternity in Heaven after your tortured and die. Compared to eternity in Heaven a few days of torture and death are totally irrelevant. It doesn't take much strength of will to do something that's totally irrelevant, just a little patience.
It's easy to be forgiving when you won the ultimate jackpot in the Universe. I'm not saying Jesus died on the cross for self-serving reasons, I'm just saying that in the context of eternity in Heaven, dying on the cross is nothing to get excited about.
This may be getting into a bigger moral debate, but can your actions be measured as altruistic if they come at no (or negligible) cost to you? Evolutionary biologists, I know, would answer "no" since they define "altruism" as an action that increases the potential for survival of another at the expense of your own potential for survival. Obviously this definition would need to be modified to encompass an after-life in the cost-benefit analysis.
[qutoe=ICTimer]It would be hard to believe that he wouldn't go to heaven regardless. On the other hand, if Jesus wasn't the Messiah, if he was a false prophet making up his own rules, he would go to hell regardless of his martyrdom.[/quote]So Jesus could've been a mass-murdering sexual deviant
and he still would've gotten into Heaven because he was the son of God? Talk about absurd.
Since the "heaven/hell" issue is the point of the question, removing it makes the question:
Which is a dumb question.
First off the trinity. It is hard to understand because we do not think on terms of infinity we can't grasp something that has no beginning or end. No one created the trinity they have always existed. They have no begining or end.
Next question that came up why did Christ die. To reclaim back to God the Father what he created. Here is the link. It starts in Genisis. The world belonged to God. He pasted the domain to adam. when adam and eve allowed sin into the world and death they passed it to satan.
There was a disconnection between God and man that He tried to reconnect with in the old covenant. Of course us not being perfect could not hold up our end. Another thing that you have to realize is that God is a perfect being He knows no fault and can see no sin (will prove this later).
We will take a look at Christs life. He was not a normal man. He was the son in the flesh but not of the flesh. Meaning while He was physically here He was not born into it. If he would have had a normal birth He would have been born into sin and the game would have been over. There had to be a perfect sacrifice in order for this to work. The tempation of Christ by satan was important. If satan approached Christ as the Son of God he didn't stand a chance however if he approached Christ as the Son of Man then he could tempt him to rid himself of his divinity and sin.
However Christ was still limited by his human body he suffered hunger and weather like everyone else. even though he was above normal levels in the flesh (30 days without food or water in a desert is impossible) it was the connection to God that sustained him.
Did Christ know that he was going to die. Yes He did. On the mount of olives He prayed that the cup would pass from Him because He knew what He was going to go through. However He said not my will but yours. If he had said I am not going to do this He would have sinned game over. Did He know what was going to come after. Probably but that doesn't make it any easier to get from point A to B.
As someone stated anyone would do that. are you so sure. if someone said if you go through this gauntlet of fire, razors, spikes, arrows, whips, beatings, for 3 hours straight you can have the ultimate prize would you do it? The greater the suffering the greater the glory.
Christs spiritual purpose of the cross.
The spiritual purpose of the cross was to bring a new covenant to man. Only this time the covenant was through Christ and God. It is hard to imagine the physical pain that Christ went through the spiritual pain was much worse than you think. Here is where I prove what I was saying up above. Christ spiritual death on the cross was the ultimate punishment. He took up on Himself the sins of the world but not just the sins of that time. From that time till the end of the world.
We do not know when this world will end however it is already 2006 so imagine all the sins that has been committed so far. In this act Christ was cut off from the Father. My God My God why has thou forsaken me. God not being able to look upon sin turned His back from His own son. For the first time in enterinty Christ did not have the connection to the Father. That right there probably caused Him more pain than anything.
Now Christs physical death. For this we need to look at several factors which is why this is recorded and still known today. Had Christs death been a simple affair it would have gone unnoticed. However it is recorded as one of the most brutal executions of all time.
At first glance they started with the beating and ripping his beard out (which means skin was removed). Secondly He was scourged 30 times. A normal human being lasted about 10 before they died if that. The cat of nine tails was a brutal weapon. 9 strips of leather with metal, bone, glass and any other sharp object put into it would bite into the person then rip the flesh from him. After that a crown of thorns was jammed onto his head which dug into His forehead. He was then made to carry a cross. This cross weighted about 60 to 80 pounds and was solid wood. On top of this he was beaten along the way. The treck to galgotha is a long road and mostly uphill towards the end.
The robe was removed which would have reopened any of the wounds that had closed and glued the robe to him. He was laid down and nailed hands and feet (only reserved for the worst of the worst). The cross was not simply placed in the hole however. The would raise it up and then it would slide down into the hole about 3 or 4 ft that would have jarred him even more ripping more flesh from the nails.
Now for the part that I believe which most people would argue with in hatred. Where did Christ go after His death and what is significant about 3 days. There are many numbers given in the bible 7 for instance is the number of perfection. 6 is the number of man or imperfection. 3 is the number of completion. Now back to where Christ went. After adam and eve sinned they past domion of the earth to satan who had control of life and death. When Christ died with all that sin He had to rid himself of it. So with His new authority rent the keys of death from satan while depositing all the sin in hell. He then spent the rest of His time in paradise waiting. paradise is not heaven. it is a holding place for the old testament saints and people before the crusifixtion until that time they are brought forth and called up.
Christ made the sacrifice because we are not able to. we all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Christ did not He was the perfect sacrifice with the authority to do what He did.
again if anyone has any specific questions please feel free to im me will answer them with the best of my ability. I think this should clear up a lot of reasons of why how and what for.
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He is God, isn't he?
If his goal is to "save" all humans, I see no necessity of a sacrifice. I see no necessity for God to do anything except to simply forgive them all. I also see no reason why one should have to believe in God (for anyone reading this who thinks so) or anything like that. God is perfectly capable of bypassing the entire Christian religion - there is nothing necessary about it.
Personally, to me it seems unnecessary convoluted and incredible ("incredible" here meaning "so implausible as to elicit disbelief").
short version. God is perfect and cannot look upon sin. The priests in the old testament sacrificed lambs or other animals for a blood sacrifice for the attonment of sin of the people. Its the blood that Christ spilt that hides the sin that we commit. Its through His blood that we are attoned for our sin.
Could God do that without sacrifice I am sure He could have. He could have stopped sin to begin with. He knows what was going to happen before it did. Ya can't fool someone who already knows the future its not a surprise to Him. However if He was to do that it would have negated the use for our free will. He gave us the ability to choose.
think of it this way. you are married is you wife going to love you more if you give her the choice or if you hold a gun constantly to her head and say you will love me? i think the former is more correct.
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By "take the fall" I meant take the punishment, not necessarily the blame. There's no lying necessary.
Again, how does Jesus dying "cleanse" the world of sin? AFAIK, Christians don't claim the Earth is a totally sinless place these days. I still don't see how this isn't analagous to my hypothetical. Jesus takes the punishment for your crime. How is that just, even if he took it on voluntarily?
Reason.
Even though God already knows the past, present and future, He does not interfere with the events. He stands outside the bounderies of time and space to an infinite level. To best discribe it with in reason. It would be like seeing the future in a mirror but not able to change it.
In His case he could if He wanted to however that would go against free will. That however does not stop Him from allowing circumstances to test us. The biggest reason people turn toward religion is that it gives them something bigger than ourselves that is in control. Think how small you are compared to the world in general and that is a spec of dust on the back of the universe. to say i am the greatest thing around leaves you no where to turn when situations get out of your control. Being able to lean on a being who is larger than the universe that He holds the stars in the palm of His hand is just huge. Given knowledge that when I die there is something better than here is just great. Read the last chapters of revalation. it describes in detail what heaven will be like.
gmontag. think of it this way. you have a son or daughter who is lost or captured. they only way to save them is to sacrifice yourself. that is what it comes down to. Christ sacrificed himself to save His children. From the children born then till the end of time.
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Why not?
I can't think of any reason why an omnipotent being would be unable to "look upon sin".
Yes, and my question was getting at the whole idea of why any sacrifices were necessary. God does not need to for people to kill animals to forgive them anymore than we do, in fact, it would be absurd for someone to ask you to slaughter a goat so that they can forgive you. Same thing for Jesus's sacrifice.
Now you're getting it.
Our free will has nothing to do with my question. My question was about why Jesus was necessary for God to forgive our sins. Him forgiving us does not involve our free will.
And even so, there could still be choice involved without needing any Jesus-sacrifice.
Which choice would that be? Whether to love you? Or whether you go to heaven or hell?
Cuz in the latter case, it seems like God is actually holding a gun to your head, and the "choice" offered is whether you love him, and if you don't, he's going to pull the trigger.
In order to understand this you have to put away the human perspective and think on a different level.
Think about it for just a second. I am a perfect being. Everything I create is perfect, everything I do is perfect, I know no flaws. Sin is an imperfection it is a blemish. Sin is what keeps you from being perfect. Take a picture like the mona lisa. lets say it is perfect. everyone enjoys it and loves it. now take a pen and mark it all up. it is no longer perfect it is blemished and scarred. that is as close as i can get how God views sin. That cannot be allowed in a perfect world. In fact it does not exist in a perfect world. that is why God turned His back on His son while He was on the cross.
For sacrifices you have to go back to genisis and the garden. after adam and eve sinned their eyes were opened and they knew they were naked. In order to clothe them God made the first sacrifice by killing an animal for them to make clothes from. Blood was the result. Innocent blood for that matter. It was a symbol of how far they fell. That they would have to take their best offerings and innocent blood be shed for their sins. of course this wouldn't work now adays could you imagine. so God needed the perfect blood sacrifice. that was His son.
Christs sacrifice was to pay the debt of sin which is death. now you have to understand what death means in the bible. death when mentioned in those terms is not a physical death but a spiritual death. death when mentioned especially in the new testament is the total spearation from God. Christs death eliminated that separation. The blood that He shed washes the sin away. By that means satan was stripped of the power that was given him by adam. death is no longer a factor.
God is giving you a choice. however with all choices come consequences. you can choose to go out and help someone. at the same time you can choose to go out and kill someone. the latter has consequences for the actions this is the same thing. if God was holding a gun to your head he never would have given you free will.
however He didn't want someone that was forced to love Him he already had that. He wanted someone to love Him just because for no reason. He wanted a creation that would praise Him of their own free nature.
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How? In what way were people "lost" before Christ died? In what way were they no longer "lost" after? How could Christ's death possibly effect this change?
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Second, there is a significant and frankly obvious flaw in your assessment, which I'm rather surprised no one has pointed out yet. Christ, even as a human, was fully divine. That means any time He felt like it, He could have simply vanished from Earth and gone back to Heaven. Case closed. Jesus didn't have to endure torture in order to gaurantee an eternal reward from God, He was God. He didn't need to endure any kind of pain in order to get the reward.
That is what makes the sacrifice so significant.
The thing here is, God created everything. Absolutely everything. God created humans, God created Satan, God created a universe that had the potential for the existence of evil as well as good. God created sin. And if God is perfect and everything He creates is perfect, then sin is also perfect. Imperfection is perfect.
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Before the cross there was really no way to attone for sin but by sacrifice. Before the cross there was the old covenant that was made with abraham which we could not live up to. Christs death on the cross paid for the old covenant and created a new covenant between God and Christ.
This new covenant is the salvation of man through Christs sacrifice. Christs perfect covenant protects us. Now when God looks at a christian even though he sins we are not yet perfect. He sees the blood of Christ as an attonment for that sin and forgiveness is granted to all that ask.
Now a serious point i will make. God did not make sin. God did not make satan. God created an angel and gave him power above all angels almost a free will to a certain extent. That angel wanted glory that was not his to have. so he rebeled and tried to set himself up as the creator. He was cast out with his followers. God did not create the devil the devil made himself.
A perfect God and creator cannot make sin. It is impossible.
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If you believe in Hell, this is the choice God appears to be giving us.