So as I understand it, with England gone, Germany's the sole major economic power in the EU, right?
So basically, England voted to essentially hand Europe over to Germany, with Germany begging England, "No, don't go, we don't want this all to ourselves"? Do I have that right? If so, history is hilarious.
Pretty much. I would be very surprised if we got a reasonable deal out of the EU now. They didn't want to give us any concessions before the referendum and did so grudingly in an attempt to keep us in. Now we have stuck 2 fingers up at the rest of the continent I can't see them being quite to willing to comprimise. Not to mention that there are Anti EU factions in the other countries and they don't want to turn this into a tidal wave.
economics is one thing, but global capitalism's need for free and open borders is leading to real demographic change that cause many to feel their culture is being destroyed. the brexit is just one nations latest big move that reflect people's desire to not sit idly by and stop the resulting demographic change.
So, in other words, brown people. The issue is brown people. Got it.
Eastern Europeans aren't brown, but yeah one of the issues that dominated was mass imigration from Eastern Europe. Another spectre rasied was the imiminent prospect of Turkey joining the EU. Which considering that Turkey has been in the process of joining for the past decade and is no where near close to joining is a bit rich.
The thing that is really pissing me off at the moment is people are jumping up and down that remain failed to make the positive arguement for staying in. That would be because aided and abetted by a very anti European press the Leave campaign were spouting stuff that was factually incorrect and Remain had to spend so much energy correcting those claims.
Hell one of the big ones was that we would magically get £350 million a week back in our coffers if we voted to leave. One of the Leaders of the out campaign has forced to admit that claim might have been a mistake
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Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and start slitting throats.
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
England isn't quite gone yet. This was just a referendum. The parliament still has to vote on leaving, and even if they decide to side with the people (despite most of the parliament wanting to stay), the EU treaties require that both sides agree to let England go. In other words, the people want to leave, but in order for it to actually happen, the government has to want to leave, and the rest of the EU has to let them leave before they actually get out.
Pretty much. I would be very surprised if we got a reasonable deal out of the EU now. They didn't want to give us any concessions before the referendum and did so grudingly in an attempt to keep us in. Now we have stuck 2 fingers up at the rest of the continent I can't see them being quite to willing to comprimise. Not to mention that there are Anti EU factions in the other countries and they don't want to turn this into a tidal wave.
Not any concessions? Brit Bonus, ring any bells? Will never understand the entitlement of GB to some kind of extra treatment cause reasons, and I really really hope the EU won't cave in again and give them more than Norway or Switzerland.
Regarding how fast they can leave, well it will probably take at least 2 years, but that's about it. There is no voting of the EU to let them leave, just if they can increase the timeframe for Britain to leave, but that has to be unanimous, and that would be extremely surprising.
Btw, sorry to be obnoxious, but it's GB/UK, not just England alone.
There are not that many reasons for the EU to give the UK any more leeway than Switzerland or Norway, which means accepting a lot of EU rules and next to free movement without a voting power.
Yeah. The rallying cry for American independence was "No Taxation Without Representation". Britain's "Independence Day" is going to amount to... well, exactly that.
Personally i wanted UK to stay just to keep with the notion of unified Europe but to that the EU needed changes in its poilicies but thats the problem, they woudn't change unless something radical happens. Tough i think the world won't change as mutch because they will still trade with each other.I support the idea of the EU the thing is the shaddyness behind it that is worrisome
David Cameron resigned and has said it is up to his successor to declare that we are invoking Aritcle 50. That is going to give us about 3-6 months for them to get a new government in place. But yeah from then on 2 years and we are out and then cue the break up of the Union as Scotland and Ulster try and get out.
At the moment I am worried about what is going to happen within the next couple of years.
@Lithl: It is up to who-ever the next PM is whether he puts it to the Parliament or not. If he had wanted DC could have said I am invoking Article 50 and goodbye. There by starting the process this morning.
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Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and start slitting throats.
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
Yeah. The rallying cry for American independence was "No Taxation Without Representation". Britain's "Independence Day" is going to amount to... well, exactly that.
Probably. They already hinted at not wanting to go the full Article 50 route and rather have an informal ending + all the extras they want, and Juncker shut that down hard! Exit is Exit, deal with it.
The rallying cry now is also "No Participation without freedom of movement."
Can't have the benefits of an open market without adhering to the rules like everybody else.
I keep seeing vague references on news sites about how Britians didn't like laws coming out of Brussels, but no news seems to point to an exact law that was "the last straw" for britians to take up brexit?
economics is one thing, but global capitalism's need for free and open borders is leading to real demographic change that cause many to feel their culture is being destroyed. the brexit is just one nations latest big move that reflect people's desire to not sit idly by and stop the resulting demographic change.
So, in other words, brown people. The issue is brown people. Got it.
so talking about demographic change is somehow instantly racist to you?
cause I really can't think of why else you'd be replying as such. Also its not just whites that respond to demographic change, brown people do the similar in their own countries, it just doesn't typically make the news.
I think its important, even if every logical view suggests its a bad move.
Obviously, half or more of their people felt this way. You have to respect that. It reflects the problems in our own country. Our nation is obviously divided on many issues, especially immigration. The only voice that most people will ever have, is their vote. And this is the way the system is supposed to work. Its a significant event that's decided by the people and I hope its actually upheld.
Its a significant event that's decided by the people and I hope its actually upheld.
OTOH, a bunch of Brits woke up today to find themselves 10% poorer (or however much), and are reconsidering their vote. #WhatHaveWeDone is trending, as well as #NotInMyName among young people who were unable to vote.
However, keep in mind that expansive idealistic policies can often overextend themselves and be enforced and implemented too quickly. Patience is a virtue that idealists dislike to realize. The idealists here, of course, being the EU. Oakeshottian, these people are not.
This is a large part of the problem. There is no specific law that is the problem. There is the perceived threat of "regulation". But, no one can point out a bad one. John Oliver did a great break down of one of the ads that complained about it. It talked about 109 "pillow" regulations and implied that was a pillow you would sleep on. It didn't complain about them in detail, just that the number was big. And then you go and look up which regulations and half of them have nothing to do with pillows, but used the word in some technical sense in relation to something else: like a pump for an air mattress, a piece of a bearing, or something else.
You have to look at the bigger picture. There has been a massive amount of anger over what I like to call "cosmopolitan corporatism" in the Western world. Cosmopolitian corporatism can be loosely defined as a centralized combination of corporations, politicians, lobbyists, special interest groups, and other elitists that run the country in a technocratic manner, believing they know how to regulate trade, immigration, and other policies on their own, even if it means the common man gets the short end of the stick. It has really grown in the past few years due to the fact that the economic recovery since the 2008 financial crisis has been very tepid. The rise of Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders in the US, as well as the Brexit, are undeniable proof that large swaths of people are sick and tired of being screwed by cosmopolitan corporatism.
I get the feeling that many people on this forum work in white-collar jobs close to or in major metropolitan areas. These are the kinds of people and jobs that benefit greatly from cosmopolitan corporatism. The West has continued to urbanize and as a result a large majority of human capital and wealth has become concentrated in and around cities. If you work in the tech industry, you're an attorney, a teacher, or work in some other highly-compensated professional management position, you have likely done fairly well since 2008. Many of these other jobs also include public-sector jobs and lobbying, both of which are everywhere in DC and Brussels. These are the people who have been largely insulated and sheltered from the economic fallout of the past several years. They have largely ignored the pleas of those less fortunate than them, who haven't seen their economic conditions improve if not deteriorate, and have looked down upon the working class and poor in a rather condescending manner.
I mean, let's think about this. There was no need to have a Brexit vote. It was only done because Cameron wanted to score political points by assuming Remain would win and then go, "Aha! You see the people agree with us that politicians both here and in Brussels know what's best for you. Now stop raising a ruckus." He may not have said it in those exact quotes, but that's the kind of feeling that would have resulted if Remain won. The hubris of the politicians backfired in a massive way.
Yeah the funny thing is that Cameron pushed austerity as an economic policy, which led directly to most of the financial issues the UK was facing by slowing recovery from the crash, and then he pushed the Brexit vote partially to appeal to the UK's far-right contingent and hopefully to rally people behind him. If he'd resigned years ago we wouldn't be in this mess.
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Yeah. The rallying cry for American independence was "No Taxation Without Representation". Britain's "Independence Day" is going to amount to... well, exactly that.
Probably. They already hinted at not wanting to go the full Article 50 route and rather have an informal ending + all the extras they want, and Juncker shut that down hard! Exit is Exit, deal with it.
The rallying cry now is also "No Participation without freedom of movement."
Can't have the benefits of an open market without adhering to the rules like everybody else.
I'm not convinced this is "independence day" so much as old scared people being driven to hysteria and trampling the young, yet again; but, there certainly is no history in any country of old people voting based on fear and a misplaced sense of nostalgia against their own interests.
<_<
>_>
To be honest, I kind of like what Sean Lock said (jokingly) on the subject long before the referendum: old people shouldn't be allowed to vote on issues like this, since it's not their future.
Also: what kind of hellish propaganda operation is going on that everyone on the leave side is made out to be a horrible racist?
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We have laboured long to build a heaven, only to find it populated with horrors.
The leave campaign was led by UKIP. UKIP runs their campaigns largely on stopping immigrants (by this they mean brown people: they like the Poles and they really like Polish racists [link]) from getting into the UK, and the party pretty much constantly has problems with UKIP politicians being too overtly racist in public then the higher ups having to sack them to avoid backlash. [example link]
Their Breaking Point poster is worryingly similar to a scene from a Nazi propaganda video [link], which probably isn't deliberate but see point one a.
There's also the fact that Brexit was predicted to wreck UK economy and damage the legal system (particularly Human Rights & anti-discrimination laws) so there wasn't much reason to vote leave aside from ****ling with non-white people.
That's a quick summary of why Pro-Brexit gets called racist. It's like how Trump supporters get called racist because of stuff like the whole "Mexicans are rapists" quote.
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The leave campaign was led by UKIP. UKIP runs their campaigns largely on stopping immigrants (by this they mean brown people: they like the Poles and they really like Polish racists [link]) from getting into the UK, and the party pretty much constantly has problems with UKIP politicians being too overtly racist in public then the higher ups having to sack them to avoid backlash. [example link]
Their Breaking Point poster is worryingly similar to a scene from a Nazi propaganda video [link], which probably isn't deliberate but see point one a.
There's also the fact that Brexit was predicted to wreck UK economy and damage the legal system (particularly Human Rights & anti-discrimination laws) so there wasn't much reason to vote leave aside from ****ling with non-white people.
That's a quick summary of why Pro-Brexit gets called racist. It's like how Trump supporters get called racist because of stuff like the whole "Mexicans are rapists" quote.
True, UKIP is one of the main exporters of British racism, but that's no reason to equate all people wanting to leave the EU as racist. It's like saying all people who like well-maintained highways are nazi's because Hitler was a fan of good infrastructure. There are some sound reasons for wanting to leave the EU. I don't think they're good enough to actually do so, but I think it's intellectual dishonest to simply say that all British people in favour of the Brexit are racists.
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We have laboured long to build a heaven, only to find it populated with horrors.
Fair enough. I'd disagree that the other reasons are even sound, given how many of them are turning out to have been lies, but people were convinced leaving the EU would help them financially or whatever.
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There are some sound reasons for wanting to leave the EU.
Care to share them?
The EU is sometimes dictatorial. It has cracked down on criticism of the institution multiple times in the past and is attempting to force google, facebook and other groups to aid and abet them in it. Furthermore, oversight by citizens is hard, since minutes of meetings are not always publicly available, as seen in the recent TTIP debacle.
Look, I want the EU to be a power for good. If properly managed, it can be a tool to help the developing countries within the region. However, there are some major issues with how it is run, as well as with the direction of its legislation. I don't think that the EU is anti-democratic perse, but when Varoufakis said the following in an interview I was shocked:
The first was the audacity with which it was made clear to me that democracy was considered irrelevant. In the very first Eurogroup meeting that I attended, when I tried to make a point that I didn’t think would be contested – that I was representing a freshly elected government whose mandate should be respected to some extent, that it should feed into a debate on what economic policies should be applied to Greece – I was astonished to hear the German finance minister say to me, verbatim, that elections cannot be allowed to change established economic policy. In other words, that democracy is fine as long as it does not threaten to change anything!
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We have laboured long to build a heaven, only to find it populated with horrors.
The first was the audacity with which it was made clear to me that democracy was considered irrelevant. In the very first Eurogroup meeting that I attended, when I tried to make a point that I didn’t think would be contested – that I was representing a freshly elected government whose mandate should be respected to some extent, that it should feed into a debate on what economic policies should be applied to Greece – I was astonished to hear the German finance minister say to me, verbatim, that elections cannot be allowed to change established economic policy. In other words, that democracy is fine as long as it does not threaten to change anything!
As a German, this is a quote I have nopt seen before and that greatly scares me. I don't want to live in a country where the elected government does not believe in democratic methods of political legislation.
Pretty much. I would be very surprised if we got a reasonable deal out of the EU now. They didn't want to give us any concessions before the referendum and did so grudingly in an attempt to keep us in. Now we have stuck 2 fingers up at the rest of the continent I can't see them being quite to willing to comprimise. Not to mention that there are Anti EU factions in the other countries and they don't want to turn this into a tidal wave.
Eastern Europeans aren't brown, but yeah one of the issues that dominated was mass imigration from Eastern Europe. Another spectre rasied was the imiminent prospect of Turkey joining the EU. Which considering that Turkey has been in the process of joining for the past decade and is no where near close to joining is a bit rich.
The thing that is really pissing me off at the moment is people are jumping up and down that remain failed to make the positive arguement for staying in. That would be because aided and abetted by a very anti European press the Leave campaign were spouting stuff that was factually incorrect and Remain had to spend so much energy correcting those claims.
Hell one of the big ones was that we would magically get £350 million a week back in our coffers if we voted to leave. One of the Leaders of the out campaign has forced to admit that claim might have been a mistake
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
The Crafters' Rules Guru
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
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Not any concessions? Brit Bonus, ring any bells? Will never understand the entitlement of GB to some kind of extra treatment cause reasons, and I really really hope the EU won't cave in again and give them more than Norway or Switzerland.
Regarding how fast they can leave, well it will probably take at least 2 years, but that's about it. There is no voting of the EU to let them leave, just if they can increase the timeframe for Britain to leave, but that has to be unanimous, and that would be extremely surprising.
Btw, sorry to be obnoxious, but it's GB/UK, not just England alone.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
David Cameron resigned and has said it is up to his successor to declare that we are invoking Aritcle 50. That is going to give us about 3-6 months for them to get a new government in place. But yeah from then on 2 years and we are out and then cue the break up of the Union as Scotland and Ulster try and get out.
At the moment I am worried about what is going to happen within the next couple of years.
@Lithl: It is up to who-ever the next PM is whether he puts it to the Parliament or not. If he had wanted DC could have said I am invoking Article 50 and goodbye. There by starting the process this morning.
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
The Crafters' Rules Guru
Probably. They already hinted at not wanting to go the full Article 50 route and rather have an informal ending + all the extras they want, and Juncker shut that down hard! Exit is Exit, deal with it.
The rallying cry now is also "No Participation without freedom of movement."
Can't have the benefits of an open market without adhering to the rules like everybody else.
I keep seeing vague references on news sites about how Britians didn't like laws coming out of Brussels, but no news seems to point to an exact law that was "the last straw" for britians to take up brexit?
so talking about demographic change is somehow instantly racist to you?
cause I really can't think of why else you'd be replying as such. Also its not just whites that respond to demographic change, brown people do the similar in their own countries, it just doesn't typically make the news.
Obviously, half or more of their people felt this way. You have to respect that. It reflects the problems in our own country. Our nation is obviously divided on many issues, especially immigration. The only voice that most people will ever have, is their vote. And this is the way the system is supposed to work. Its a significant event that's decided by the people and I hope its actually upheld.
My Buying Thread
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
Art is life itself.
However, keep in mind that expansive idealistic policies can often overextend themselves and be enforced and implemented too quickly. Patience is a virtue that idealists dislike to realize. The idealists here, of course, being the EU. Oakeshottian, these people are not.
You have to look at the bigger picture. There has been a massive amount of anger over what I like to call "cosmopolitan corporatism" in the Western world. Cosmopolitian corporatism can be loosely defined as a centralized combination of corporations, politicians, lobbyists, special interest groups, and other elitists that run the country in a technocratic manner, believing they know how to regulate trade, immigration, and other policies on their own, even if it means the common man gets the short end of the stick. It has really grown in the past few years due to the fact that the economic recovery since the 2008 financial crisis has been very tepid. The rise of Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders in the US, as well as the Brexit, are undeniable proof that large swaths of people are sick and tired of being screwed by cosmopolitan corporatism.
I get the feeling that many people on this forum work in white-collar jobs close to or in major metropolitan areas. These are the kinds of people and jobs that benefit greatly from cosmopolitan corporatism. The West has continued to urbanize and as a result a large majority of human capital and wealth has become concentrated in and around cities. If you work in the tech industry, you're an attorney, a teacher, or work in some other highly-compensated professional management position, you have likely done fairly well since 2008. Many of these other jobs also include public-sector jobs and lobbying, both of which are everywhere in DC and Brussels. These are the people who have been largely insulated and sheltered from the economic fallout of the past several years. They have largely ignored the pleas of those less fortunate than them, who haven't seen their economic conditions improve if not deteriorate, and have looked down upon the working class and poor in a rather condescending manner.
I mean, let's think about this. There was no need to have a Brexit vote. It was only done because Cameron wanted to score political points by assuming Remain would win and then go, "Aha! You see the people agree with us that politicians both here and in Brussels know what's best for you. Now stop raising a ruckus." He may not have said it in those exact quotes, but that's the kind of feeling that would have resulted if Remain won. The hubris of the politicians backfired in a massive way.
Art is life itself.
To be honest, I kind of like what Sean Lock said (jokingly) on the subject long before the referendum: old people shouldn't be allowed to vote on issues like this, since it's not their future.
Also: what kind of hellish propaganda operation is going on that everyone on the leave side is made out to be a horrible racist?
Their Breaking Point poster is worryingly similar to a scene from a Nazi propaganda video [link], which probably isn't deliberate but see point one a.
There's also the fact that Brexit was predicted to wreck UK economy and damage the legal system (particularly Human Rights & anti-discrimination laws) so there wasn't much reason to vote leave aside from ****ling with non-white people.
That's a quick summary of why Pro-Brexit gets called racist. It's like how Trump supporters get called racist because of stuff like the whole "Mexicans are rapists" quote.
Art is life itself.
True, UKIP is one of the main exporters of British racism, but that's no reason to equate all people wanting to leave the EU as racist. It's like saying all people who like well-maintained highways are nazi's because Hitler was a fan of good infrastructure. There are some sound reasons for wanting to leave the EU. I don't think they're good enough to actually do so, but I think it's intellectual dishonest to simply say that all British people in favour of the Brexit are racists.
Art is life itself.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
The EU is sometimes dictatorial. It has cracked down on criticism of the institution multiple times in the past and is attempting to force google, facebook and other groups to aid and abet them in it. Furthermore, oversight by citizens is hard, since minutes of meetings are not always publicly available, as seen in the recent TTIP debacle.
Look, I want the EU to be a power for good. If properly managed, it can be a tool to help the developing countries within the region. However, there are some major issues with how it is run, as well as with the direction of its legislation. I don't think that the EU is anti-democratic perse, but when Varoufakis said the following in an interview I was shocked:
As a German, this is a quote I have nopt seen before and that greatly scares me. I don't want to live in a country where the elected government does not believe in democratic methods of political legislation.
UR Mizzix of the Izmagnus ~~~ Build your own win-condition: Finite Spellslinging
UR Brudiclad, Telchor Engineer ~~~ We are the Borg. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own.
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic ~~~ A Guide to dying slowly
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