Since there is demand for a discussion on this subject, I'm allowing some debate here. Please note, there are some challenges currently facing the materials here, the MTG Reddit group has gone private for an unrelated reason and the twitter account of Drew Levin has been protected.
It boils down to this. Zach was a Pro Tour player who was googled by Drew Levin. Drew discovered Zach's criminal record and tweeted about it. In response to Zach being a convicted rapist, Wizards of the Coast banned him for 34 years. Important to note that Zach was not banned for misconduct, and Wizards does not have a policy regarding criminal background.
News Article about Zach Jesse's case. Please note, this has a fairly graphic description of the assault, and it may make some uncomfortable. I'll post a brief description in spoilers here.
Essentially, Zach pled guilty to felony aggravated sexual battery. The victim testified that she was raped by Jesse both vaginally and anally while slumped over a toilet in her own apartment. Because of his plea deal, he served three months of an eight year sentence and couldn't return to school until the victim had graduated. It's important to note that the victim was consulted on the plea deal and agreed with it - she wanted him held accountable, not put away for the rest of his life.
Zach Jesse's Post on the Subject. If MTG Reddit opens back up, you'll be able to see it. His response is essentially that he's become a lawyer since his conviction and has dedicated a large portion of his life to doing charity and pro bono work in an effort to atone.
This discussion is ONLY for the purposes of discussing whether or not WotC was right in banning Zach Jesse. Do not diminish the nature of the crime. Do not post graphic descriptions of the crime, the question is not whether or not sexual assault is a heinous crime, but if Zach Jesse should have been banned for it. Keep this discussion on target, or this thread will be closed and another one will not be allowed to reopen. Be courteous to your fellow posters, people have deep seated feelings about sexual assault, and some members may have been victims themselves.
Edit: We are not debating the details of the case here. The case, as it happened, is pretty clearly laid out in the news article above. There are no more details to be had, and speculating will not advance to purpose of the debate.
Edit: Please note in my original summary of the incident, I misspoke. I've since fixed the summary.
They shouldn't have banned him without putting out explicit rules as to why they are banning him and not others.
If they want to ban all felons, ok. If they want to ban all people convicted of sexual crimes, ok.
They just need to have a rule.
Personal Opinion:
It was ten years ago, and he appears to have made great strides in rehabilitating himself. The purpose of our justice system is to rehabilitate people. It appears to have worked.
Also, Wizards, colleges, people in general need to let the judicial system do its thing without interfering.
Insert obligatory "Wizards is a private company and are free to do what they wish"
What happened was not just in any shape or form.
1. Drew Levin took issue with Zach Jesse and got him in effect lifetime banned from Magic, Im trying to find a term besides SJW but its all synonyms. Wizards has again bowed to mob rule and this time it banned a player who had been an exemplary magic player.
2. Patrick Chapin (Who is one of my favorite Magic Personalities just behind Kibler) is a convicted Drug Dealer and is in the Hall of Fame, its pretty clear this was more about Optics then any real "security issues" and feels at least to be motivated to look friendly to the post-modernist deconstructionist crowd that apparently pulls enough wait to have players banned for life for no infractions.
3. While seizing his MTGO account might be legal it sure as hell doesnt seem like in the spirit of justice, especially when he got a strong armed call from Wotc lawyers
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Don't you see that the whole aim of Moderators is to narrow the range of thought? In the end we shall make infractions literally impossible, because there will be no words in which to express it. Every concept that can ever be needed, will be expressed by exactly one word, with its meaning rigidly defined and all its subsidiary meanings rubbed out and forgotten.
Im trying to find a term besides SJW but its all synonyms.
Except, that's not social justice. Social justice is rehabilitating criminals, not making it difficult for them to live their lives. That's one of my many problems with the term SJW. It's become an easy out for diminishing a position, and it's not even accurate. What we're talking about here is mob rule, not social justice.
I can help but think this is what typed this off the edge and that you have missed what he didn't say in this statement. He never admits to what he did, he calls it the "incident" then quickly brushes it aside to talk about how he is such a super person. He does not come across as someone who is trying to atone, but instead as someone who while charismatic is not admitting any personal blame. It is a challenge he is over coming, he has valiantly over come that "incident" where he raped an unconscious women and suffered next too zero consequences thanks his rich parents.
Also he is not a lawyer he is not going to pass the bar for ethical reasons, the bar is not going to appoint anyone who can't admit to any personal responsibility.
It did bother me that he didn't accept personal responsibility in his statement, but that's rather irrelevant to the subject at hand. We're not here to discuss his character, and I don't think there is anyone who would say he didn't commit an heinous act. The question is: was Wizards correct in banning him, and why. Wizards has set a precedent that ex-cons can be in the hall of fame.
If Wizards doesn't want to have registered sex offenders at their events, that's perfectly fine by me. If they just don't want to have individuals they judge as having extremely low moral character, that's also fine with me.
I can help but think this is what typed this off the edge and that you have missed what he didn't say in this statement. He never admits to what he did, he calls it the "incident" then quickly brushes it aside to talk about how he is such a super person. He does not come across as someone who is trying to atone, but instead as someone who while charismatic is not admitting any personal blame. It is a challenge he is over coming, he has valiantly over come that "incident" where he raped an unconscious women and suffered next too zero consequences thanks his rich parents.
Also he is not a lawyer he is not going to pass the bar for ethical reasons, the bar is not going to appoint anyone who can't admit to any personal responsibility.
The crime was decade ago, he is not a repeat offender and has been a pillar of his community and a good magic player. Wizards banned him and confiscated his MTGO account with no justification other then they can do whatever they want. Do you have anything besides personal attacks to argue for his banning and account being seized?
@ Jay13x SJW to me is as dedicated to social justice as the Democratic Republic of Congo was to representing the will of the people. We have seen in the past year an escalation of mob rule and its come from the same direction each time. The problem is what can the community do to stop it? I remember thinking about just quitting magic and calling for a boycott but then "What have the Romans ever done for us" from life of brian always pops into my head.
Don't you see that the whole aim of Moderators is to narrow the range of thought? In the end we shall make infractions literally impossible, because there will be no words in which to express it. Every concept that can ever be needed, will be expressed by exactly one word, with its meaning rigidly defined and all its subsidiary meanings rubbed out and forgotten.
The crime was decade ago, he is not a repeat offender and has been a pillar of his community and a good magic player. Wizards banned him and confiscated his MTGO account with no justification other then they can do whatever they want. Do you have anything besides personal attacks to argue for his banning and account being seized?
How do you know he's been a pillar of the community? Because he says he's a really nice dude?
How do you know he's been a pillar of the community? Because he says he's a really nice dude?
I logged approximately 100 hours of community service and pro bono volunteerism while at school.
I currently devote about 30-40 hours a week giving back to my community. Once a week I help sort incoming donations at a local organization that helps homeless people in the Richmond area reenter society. I spend another 30+ hours a week volunteering my time at two legal aid offices that provide legal assistance to people that fall below the poverty line. Because of my longtime involvement with my local neighborhood board, I was approached by members of said group who asked that I fill a vacancy. I currently serve as secretary for the board, am the neighborhood liaison with the local university (VCU), and head a task force designed to beautify our neighborhood.
Unless hes lying, hes done more for his community then I have ever done for mine, and Id wager most.
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Don't you see that the whole aim of Moderators is to narrow the range of thought? In the end we shall make infractions literally impossible, because there will be no words in which to express it. Every concept that can ever be needed, will be expressed by exactly one word, with its meaning rigidly defined and all its subsidiary meanings rubbed out and forgotten.
His own personal summary talks a lot about how he has benefitted from having raped someone and how he has leveraged the mistake he made to better himself. The entire tone of his personal defense or whatever it was disgusted me. It was written as if his crime had no victim and that what he does now negates what he did to that person.
WOTC failed to outline a policy of personal conduct that other sports have. If that is what they want, then that is what they should have proposed and leveraged. Instead, they humbled their way through this like they seem to do with most things these days.
What Chapin did to himself does not equal what Jesse did to his victim and shouldn't be compared.
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One of these day I have to get myself organizized.
CAN WOTC ban Zach Jesse from participating in sanctioned magic tournaments? Yes. Can they delete his MTGO account? Yes. This isn't up for debate. They are a company running private events and they are free to set policies on who and who not may attend, whether it be for truly moral reason or just becuase they think this will make them more money. I'm fairly certained "convicted rapists" isn't a protected class under the law.
SHOULD Zach Jesse have been banned is another question. I certainly don't feel BAD for Zach. When you decide to rape someone I'm not going to feel bad for you if it eventually leads to consequeneces. The reality is, this is a publicity thing. WOTC doesn't want a convicted rapist winning a GP or god forbid a pro tour. I don't want that either. It would be bad for magic. That said, I wish they could have just banned him from PTs/GPs/PTQs/PPTQs. It seems over the top to prevent him from doing a draft at his local game store. Wizards might claim they dont have the "technology" to do this... and I believe them because their tournament software hasn't been overhauled in like 13 years so it might actually be true.
Taking his MTGO account seems silly. At least in person you can make the "people don't want to sit down at a table across from a rapist" argument. Doesn't really hold online.
Ultimately, I can emapthize with Zach Jesse. Obviously he will live forever with the consequences of a horrible, disgusting choice he made. It must suck to have something you truly enjoy, but that is ultimately very trivial, get taken away from you because of it. But empathy is not the same as sympathy. Of that I feel little. At most, I can say the verdict was inconsistent/heavy-handed, but I certainly don't feel BAD for him. Hopefully a well-articulated policy will emerge from this.
If there had been some admission of contrition/responsibility in that statement, I would have been convinced that he would not re-offend given the opportunity, and wholly against the ban.
As it is, based solely on knowledge of the crime and his statement, I don't feel _quite_ as certain.
To me, there's a question of whether Wizards should make their decisions based on:
a) What is morally right (he's done his, albeit minimal, time, and perhaps that should be the end of it)
b) What is financially beneficial to them (now that the situation is public knowledge, their bottom line could be impacted based on their decisions)
c) The outside chance that he might re-offend
The MTGO account removal bothers me - if they seriously believe he's a re-offence risk, I could understand banning him from tournaments, but playing against him on MTGO should be fairly safe.
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I logged approximately 100 hours of community service and pro bono volunteerism while at school.
I currently devote about 30-40 hours a week giving back to my community. Once a week I help sort incoming donations at a local organization that helps homeless people in the Richmond area reenter society. I spend another 30+ hours a week volunteering my time at two legal aid offices that provide legal assistance to people that fall below the poverty line. Because of my longtime involvement with my local neighborhood board, I was approached by members of said group who asked that I fill a vacancy. I currently serve as secretary for the board, am the neighborhood liaison with the local university (VCU), and head a task force designed to beautify our neighborhood.
Unless hes lying, hes done more for his community then I have ever done for mine, and Id wager most.
He's not lying, but here's my spin on it. This a guy whose family is rich and doesn't have to work. He can't be a real lawyer because the state bar won't admit someone with his horrific past. So, he spends some of his time helping out at a law office. That doesn't make him a "pillar of the community". Of course his own description of himself sounds glowing, but let's keep some perspective here. Neighborhood beautification does not make you a saint.
He's not lying, but here's my spin on it. This a guy whose family is rich and doesn't have to work. He can't be a real lawyer because the state bar won't admit someone with his horrific past. So, he spends some of his time helping out at a law office. That doesn't make him a "pillar of the community". Of course his own description of himself sounds glowing, but let's keep some perspective here. Neighborhood beautification does not make you a saint.
Trying to not get infracted here but what exactly should they have done? Given him a life sentence? If someone is of sound mind and not addicted to drugs how can you say they are rehabilitated. Thats my problem with whole modern criminal system, the law might say your free but it then gives society free reign to do what they please with you, white not just get it over with and call him an outlaw.
People are just using their own feelings to make a judgement, which would be fine except its end result was someone getting banned from Magic.
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Don't you see that the whole aim of Moderators is to narrow the range of thought? In the end we shall make infractions literally impossible, because there will be no words in which to express it. Every concept that can ever be needed, will be expressed by exactly one word, with its meaning rigidly defined and all its subsidiary meanings rubbed out and forgotten.
Does Wizards ever ask people (perhaps for event coverage, or Pro Tour stuff) whether or not they have a criminal record? It is the kind of question that comes up. If Zach ever lied to Wizards about his history, I could see this kind of reaction, and I would deem it appropriate.
If this is about having a criminal record, then I don't think it's a good reason. A criminal record should not be enough to ban someone from the game.
People make mistakes. Some people make pretty bad mistakes. I don't know if they are truly repentant. If they have tried to atone. I hope they have. But a lot of kids play magic, and I don't want them to look up to criminals. Especially that their history is not mentioned. I don't personally want Chapin in featured matches. I don't have anything against him personally. I am sure he has reformed. I'm sure there are a lot of failings of society that put him in that direction. If I were to meet him, I would not think badly of him, and I would treat him with respect. But I don't want kids to think that it is okay to take that direction. I would really prefer if he wasn't in featured matches, and if he tops a tournament (and needs to be featured), that there be a short clip where he explains his history, the consequences of his actions, and how he has reformed. I don't think being a criminal is enough basis to ban someone from the game, but I don't think we should glorify criminals. I am disappointed that I have never, until now, known about Chapin's history. This is something that should be talked about.
So, yeah, I don't think Zach should be in featured matches. In addition to being a bad message towards kids and viewers, there is the problem of him sitting at a table with a woman. How should she feel? Threatened? Scared? Nobody is afraid Patrick Chapin is going to force them to take drugs. At a basic level, he is not threatening. Zach is threatening, and will always be. He has a lot to atone for, and even then, it will never be enough in my opinion. I think Wizards should explain it if they view different crimes differently. I would understand not wanting Zach attending public events. There is already a huge issue with women not feeling safe at events. Don't need to add to it.
I hope Zach has reformed. I hope he does a lot to atone for his actions. But, you can't undo the past, and people should always feel safe at events.
I think Wizards made the right choice, but that they need to address it and explain how it is different for other criminals.
If the bar for 'being allowed to play MtG' would be set at 'being a saint', you'd have a hard time filling that FNM draft. The criminal justice system is there for a reason, we don't need private entities playing judge and prosecutor.
The bar is not being a saint, but Burning called him a "pillar of the community". That's what I was arguing against.
The criminal justice system is there for a reason, and Zach is still a violent registered sex offender. That registry also exists for a reason - because the justice system deems those on it to be worth warning people about so that they can take what measures they deem necessary to avoid unwanted association with that sort of criminal.
Trying to not get infracted here but what exactly should they have done? Given him a life sentence? If someone is of sound mind and not addicted to drugs how can you say they are rehabilitated. Thats my problem with whole modern criminal system, the law might say your free but it then gives society free reign to do what they please with you, white not just get it over with and call him an outlaw.
People are just using their own feelings to make a judgement, which would be fine except its end result was someone getting banned from Magic.
The law says he served his prison sentence, but it also says he's worthy of being on a list of people who committed violent sexual offenses. When he's eligible for removal from that list, and the panel judges him worthy of removal, that's when I'll consider the justice system to have declared him rehabilitated.
In addition to being a bad message towards kids and viewers, there is the problem of him sitting at a table with a woman. How should she feel? Threatened? Scared?
...
I think Wizards made the right choice, but that they need to address it and explain how it is different for other criminals.
I think this is a well written and insightful post.
I think the first part goes beyond being a "woman" though. I would feel fairly uncomfortable sitting across from someone and thinking "oh. he raped someone in the anus. huh." I mean, sure, I wouldn't feel "unsafe," but it would definitely be an unenjoyable experience.
I think we have reached the point where we need an official policy. If wizard wants to make convictions of violent felonies a lifetime DCI ban, then I don't really have an issue with it. I'd prefer an explicit set of rules rather than just "doing what feels right" because that never works out.
I don't understand. He pleaded guilty, got punished, the victim was satisfied, it was over 10 years ago. The case should be closed.
Next thing you know, war veterans won't be allowed to play because they murdered people for their country.
As Burning Paladin stated, this is just SJW "justice" and mob rule. And to not appear politically incorrect, they issued a ban.
If anything, Drew Levin should be banned for slander.
The law says he served his prison sentence, but it also says he's worthy of being on a list of people who committed violent sexual offenses. When he's eligible for removal from that list, and the panel judges him worthy of removal, that's when I'll consider the justice system to have declared him rehabilitated.
Hes on it for life from what I can find.
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Don't you see that the whole aim of Moderators is to narrow the range of thought? In the end we shall make infractions literally impossible, because there will be no words in which to express it. Every concept that can ever be needed, will be expressed by exactly one word, with its meaning rigidly defined and all its subsidiary meanings rubbed out and forgotten.
For people trying to defend Patrick Chapin here: He did not go to jail for USING drugs. He went to jail for SELLING them(largely heroin). And he would STILL be in jail if not for the fact that the main witness against him died(from an overdose) before Chapin went to trial. If Zack Jesse's behavior warrants a ban, then there is no question that Chapin's did as well.
Ultimately, WOTC can do literally whatever they want. But they handled this as poorly as possible. In particular, banning him from MTGO is just a joke. From what I've been able to find online(re: what Zack Jesse did), we are talking about one isolated incident that occurred while Jesse was drunk, and it occurred over a decade ago. He served his team(which was only 3 months to begin with) and has had no problems with the law since. People have to be allowed to move on from their past mistakes. The reason that we have such a high rate of recidivism in the US in criminals is precisely because no one ever wants to let anything go. Jail can rehabilitate people, when handled properly. It is pretty clear in Zack Jesse's case that it DID rehabilitate him.
The person that I am most disgusted with in all of this is Drew Levin. He literally went digging into Zack Jesse's past to find this, and then made a ridiculously big deal out of it when absolutely no one else knew about it. It was a complete non-issue. His behavior here is despicable.
Does any of this excuse Jesse's behavior? Of course not. But he has already served his sentence. The idea that he was declared fit to enter back into society and given a clean bill of mental health, but..somehow he's not fit to play Magic..is complete nonsense.
Only his lack of personal responsibility is likely a good part of why he is banned. He is an unrepentant rapist, would you want someone like that representing your game? There is no way any company that likes to have any kind of good public image can allow someone like that to stay as part of their community. Maybe this would have happened no matter what, but I think it is the complete lack of contrition for his actions that brought this about.
Except, he made the post after he was banned, so it couldn't have factored into it. He was banned well before he said anything about it. So that line of argument doesn't really work.
Now, here's the thing. He specifically says his post is not intended to minimize the crime. I think you're reading a lot into one reddit post. The dude pled guilty and doesn't deny what he did. He posted a link that detailed the whole case. The point he was trying to make was that he's not dangerous to anyone now.
I think we have reached the point where we need an official policy.
This is my issue as well. Why a drug trafficker can be on the hall of fame is beyond me.
Look, the issue here is that regardless of what Zach did, Wizards doesn't have any kind of policy governing how to handle felons. Zach did his time, whether or not we agree that it was fair (I also think it was kind of bull*****). The victim's lawyer is quoted in that article saying that the victim wanted him held accountable, not buried under the jail.
The law says he served his prison sentence, but it also says he's worthy of being on a list of people who committed violent sexual offenses. When he's eligible for removal from that list, and the panel judges him worthy of removal, that's when I'll consider the justice system to have declared him rehabilitated.
Well, he's on the sex offender registry. Anyone from someone caught peeing on school property while drunk to serial killers can end up on the registry. It's not a good system, and getting removed is next to impossible except for some fringe cases. So you've essentially said 'never', which is a very long time. Now, he's had his civil rights restored by the state of virigina - would that count for your purposes?
There's nothing to indicate he's a repeat offender. No one is questioning what he did. The question is if he's still dangerous or a risk to anyone, which is ostensibly why he was banned.
In addition to being a bad message towards kids and viewers, there is the problem of him sitting at a table with a woman. How should she feel? Threatened? Scared?
Be careful here. What you're suggesting has a faint whiff of infantilization. Is it her decision how to feel about Jesse, or is it Wizards' decision how she ought to feel about Jesse?
I think Wizards made the right choice, but that they need to address it and explain how it is different for other criminals.
Is it different, though? Would we be having this conversation if he were convicted of a non-sexual violent crime? Should we be having this conversation if he were convicted of a non-sexual violent crime?
The criminal justice system is there for a reason, and Zach is still a violent registered sex offender. That registry also exists for a reason - because the justice system deems those on it to be worth warning people about so that they can take what measures they deem necessary to avoid unwanted association with that sort of criminal.
I'm sure you're aware that the implementation of sex offender registries is... controversial. I don't expect you would be satisfied by an argument like "The justice system has deemed this convicted murderer to be put to death, therefore I'm okay with that." (Even if you're pro-death-penalty, I hope you can appreciate what I'm getting at.)
Well, he's on the sex offender registry. Anyone from someone caught peeing on school property while drunk to serial killers can end up on the registry. It's not a good system, and getting removed is next to impossible except for some fringe cases. So you've essentially said 'never', which is a very long time. Now, he's had his civil rights restored by the state of virigina - would that count for your purposes?
There's nothing to indicate he's a repeat offender. No one is questioning what he did. The question is if he's still dangerous or a risk to anyone, which is ostensibly why he was banned.
Oh I see how this game works. When the justice system says he has to serve 3 months of work release, I'm supposed to acknowledge that he's served his time and trust in the system, but when it says he has to be on a registry of violent sex offenders, then the system has a lot problems and I'm supposed to ignore it. Give me a ****ing break.
There are two types of arguments for excluding people who committed crimes from a community.
Type 1:
They pose a particular danger to that very community. For instance, this is the reason we don't allow people who've molested children to be kindergarten-teachers.
When doing this, we are basically saying: "Sorry, we can't trust you enough in certain aspects, so you can't do those things anymore, at least not without supervision".
Note that this argument cannot be applied to all communities: Only to those that are particularly vulnerable to certain kind of negative behavior.
Type 2:
We exclude people because they make us "feel" unsafe (even if we're not particularly vulnerable to the kind of crime that's been committed) or because we don't want to see people who've committed certain crimes, etc.
These are the kinds of arguments that are used by those in favor of banning Zach Jesse.
The important thing to note about such arguments is that they are applicable to ALL communities. If we want people like Zach Jesse banned from the MTG Community we should find it reasonable that all other communities ban him as well. If there is a good reason that the MTG Community ban him there's a good reason for EVERY community to ban him. If we think like this we throw overboard the idea of redemption for people who committed certain kind of crimes. We're saying that they should never again have a chance to be part of society and that their lives should be forever forfeited and that people like Zach Jesse should either be content with being alone forever or should kill themselves.
Allowing people to redeem themselves always entails that society will have to accept them back. It might not be nice at first to have a convict in your community (might take a while to trust him) but not accepting them back in is either pure egoism ("let someone else take him") or surrendering the idea of rehabilitation entirely. We, as a Community, should do none of these things.
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CAN WOTC ban Zach Jesse from participating in sanctioned magic tournaments? Yes. Can they delete his MTGO account? Yes. This isn't up for debate. They are a company running private events and they are free to set policies on who and who not may attend, whether it be for truly moral reason or just becuase they think this will make them more money. I'm fairly certained "convicted rapists" isn't a protected class under the law.
SHOULD Zach Jesse have been banned is another question. I certainly don't feel BAD for Zach. When you decide to rape someone I'm not going to feel bad for you if it eventually leads to consequeneces. The reality is, this is a publicity thing. WOTC doesn't want a convicted rapist winning a GP or god forbid a pro tour. I don't want that either. It would be bad for magic. That said, I wish they could have just banned him from PTs/GPs/PTQs/PPTQs. It seems over the top to prevent him from doing a draft at his local game store. Wizards might claim they dont have the "technology" to do this... and I believe them because their tournament software hasn't been overhauled in like 13 years so it might actually be true.
Taking his MTGO account seems silly. At least in person you can make the "people don't want to sit down at a table across from a rapist" argument. Doesn't really hold online.
Ultimately, I can emapthize with Zach Jesse. Obviously he will live forever with the consequences of a horrible, disgusting choice he made. It must suck to have something you truly enjoy, but that is ultimately very trivial, get taken away from you because of it. But empathy is not the same as sympathy. Of that I feel little. At most, I can say the verdict was inconsistent/heavy-handed, but I certainly don't feel BAD for him. Hopefully a well-articulated policy will emerge from this.
Well said. I can't blame Wizards and Hasbro for wanting to avoid the discomforting possibility that, if Zach Jesse won a major event, they would be obliged to publicly celebrate a convicted rapist.
The outrage that some members of the Magic community are expressing at Jesse's ban--outrage which will almost certainly dissipate after a few weeks--is nothing compared to the uproar that would emerge should the general public learn about the veneration of a sex offender.
It's important to evaluate the ban from the perspective of someone who knows and cares nothing about Magic. Would an outsider to the game, if told about Jesse's ban, be angry or even interested about the fact that someone is prevented from playing a silly card game? Doubtful. Would an outsider, by contrast, be upset if a convicted sex offender is venerated by a major corporation like Hasbro? You betcha.
It's not fair, but it doesn't have to be. Let's face it: rapists have a justifiably bad reputation in the public eye and a special place in hell.
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It boils down to this. Zach was a Pro Tour player who was googled by Drew Levin. Drew discovered Zach's criminal record and tweeted about it. In response to Zach being a convicted rapist, Wizards of the Coast banned him for 34 years. Important to note that Zach was not banned for misconduct, and Wizards does not have a policy regarding criminal background.
News Article about Zach Jesse's case. Please note, this has a fairly graphic description of the assault, and it may make some uncomfortable. I'll post a brief description in spoilers here.
Zach Jesse's Post on the Subject. If MTG Reddit opens back up, you'll be able to see it. His response is essentially that he's become a lawyer since his conviction and has dedicated a large portion of his life to doing charity and pro bono work in an effort to atone.
This discussion is ONLY for the purposes of discussing whether or not WotC was right in banning Zach Jesse. Do not diminish the nature of the crime. Do not post graphic descriptions of the crime, the question is not whether or not sexual assault is a heinous crime, but if Zach Jesse should have been banned for it. Keep this discussion on target, or this thread will be closed and another one will not be allowed to reopen. Be courteous to your fellow posters, people have deep seated feelings about sexual assault, and some members may have been victims themselves.
Edit: We are not debating the details of the case here. The case, as it happened, is pretty clearly laid out in the news article above. There are no more details to be had, and speculating will not advance to purpose of the debate.
Edit: Please note in my original summary of the incident, I misspoke. I've since fixed the summary.
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If they want to ban all felons, ok. If they want to ban all people convicted of sexual crimes, ok.
They just need to have a rule.
Personal Opinion:
Also, Wizards, colleges, people in general need to let the judicial system do its thing without interfering.
What happened was not just in any shape or form.
1. Drew Levin took issue with Zach Jesse and got him in effect lifetime banned from Magic, Im trying to find a term besides SJW but its all synonyms. Wizards has again bowed to mob rule and this time it banned a player who had been an exemplary magic player.
2. Patrick Chapin (Who is one of my favorite Magic Personalities just behind Kibler) is a convicted Drug Dealer and is in the Hall of Fame, its pretty clear this was more about Optics then any real "security issues" and feels at least to be motivated to look friendly to the post-modernist deconstructionist crowd that apparently pulls enough wait to have players banned for life for no infractions.
3. While seizing his MTGO account might be legal it sure as hell doesnt seem like in the spirit of justice, especially when he got a strong armed call from Wotc lawyers
It did bother me that he didn't accept personal responsibility in his statement, but that's rather irrelevant to the subject at hand. We're not here to discuss his character, and I don't think there is anyone who would say he didn't commit an heinous act. The question is: was Wizards correct in banning him, and why. Wizards has set a precedent that ex-cons can be in the hall of fame.
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The crime was decade ago, he is not a repeat offender and has been a pillar of his community and a good magic player. Wizards banned him and confiscated his MTGO account with no justification other then they can do whatever they want. Do you have anything besides personal attacks to argue for his banning and account being seized?
@ Jay13x SJW to me is as dedicated to social justice as the Democratic Republic of Congo was to representing the will of the people. We have seen in the past year an escalation of mob rule and its come from the same direction each time. The problem is what can the community do to stop it? I remember thinking about just quitting magic and calling for a boycott but then "What have the Romans ever done for us" from life of brian always pops into my head.
How do you know he's been a pillar of the community? Because he says he's a really nice dude?
Unless hes lying, hes done more for his community then I have ever done for mine, and Id wager most.
WOTC failed to outline a policy of personal conduct that other sports have. If that is what they want, then that is what they should have proposed and leveraged. Instead, they humbled their way through this like they seem to do with most things these days.
What Chapin did to himself does not equal what Jesse did to his victim and shouldn't be compared.
SHOULD Zach Jesse have been banned is another question. I certainly don't feel BAD for Zach. When you decide to rape someone I'm not going to feel bad for you if it eventually leads to consequeneces. The reality is, this is a publicity thing. WOTC doesn't want a convicted rapist winning a GP or god forbid a pro tour. I don't want that either. It would be bad for magic. That said, I wish they could have just banned him from PTs/GPs/PTQs/PPTQs. It seems over the top to prevent him from doing a draft at his local game store. Wizards might claim they dont have the "technology" to do this... and I believe them because their tournament software hasn't been overhauled in like 13 years so it might actually be true.
Taking his MTGO account seems silly. At least in person you can make the "people don't want to sit down at a table across from a rapist" argument. Doesn't really hold online.
Ultimately, I can emapthize with Zach Jesse. Obviously he will live forever with the consequences of a horrible, disgusting choice he made. It must suck to have something you truly enjoy, but that is ultimately very trivial, get taken away from you because of it. But empathy is not the same as sympathy. Of that I feel little. At most, I can say the verdict was inconsistent/heavy-handed, but I certainly don't feel BAD for him. Hopefully a well-articulated policy will emerge from this.
As it is, based solely on knowledge of the crime and his statement, I don't feel _quite_ as certain.
To me, there's a question of whether Wizards should make their decisions based on:
a) What is morally right (he's done his, albeit minimal, time, and perhaps that should be the end of it)
b) What is financially beneficial to them (now that the situation is public knowledge, their bottom line could be impacted based on their decisions)
c) The outside chance that he might re-offend
The MTGO account removal bothers me - if they seriously believe he's a re-offence risk, I could understand banning him from tournaments, but playing against him on MTGO should be fairly safe.
He's not lying, but here's my spin on it. This a guy whose family is rich and doesn't have to work. He can't be a real lawyer because the state bar won't admit someone with his horrific past. So, he spends some of his time helping out at a law office. That doesn't make him a "pillar of the community". Of course his own description of himself sounds glowing, but let's keep some perspective here. Neighborhood beautification does not make you a saint.
He's not going to grab you through your monitor.
Trying to not get infracted here but what exactly should they have done? Given him a life sentence? If someone is of sound mind and not addicted to drugs how can you say they are rehabilitated. Thats my problem with whole modern criminal system, the law might say your free but it then gives society free reign to do what they please with you, white not just get it over with and call him an outlaw.
People are just using their own feelings to make a judgement, which would be fine except its end result was someone getting banned from Magic.
If this is about having a criminal record, then I don't think it's a good reason. A criminal record should not be enough to ban someone from the game.
People make mistakes. Some people make pretty bad mistakes. I don't know if they are truly repentant. If they have tried to atone. I hope they have. But a lot of kids play magic, and I don't want them to look up to criminals. Especially that their history is not mentioned. I don't personally want Chapin in featured matches. I don't have anything against him personally. I am sure he has reformed. I'm sure there are a lot of failings of society that put him in that direction. If I were to meet him, I would not think badly of him, and I would treat him with respect. But I don't want kids to think that it is okay to take that direction. I would really prefer if he wasn't in featured matches, and if he tops a tournament (and needs to be featured), that there be a short clip where he explains his history, the consequences of his actions, and how he has reformed. I don't think being a criminal is enough basis to ban someone from the game, but I don't think we should glorify criminals. I am disappointed that I have never, until now, known about Chapin's history. This is something that should be talked about.
So, yeah, I don't think Zach should be in featured matches. In addition to being a bad message towards kids and viewers, there is the problem of him sitting at a table with a woman. How should she feel? Threatened? Scared? Nobody is afraid Patrick Chapin is going to force them to take drugs. At a basic level, he is not threatening. Zach is threatening, and will always be. He has a lot to atone for, and even then, it will never be enough in my opinion. I think Wizards should explain it if they view different crimes differently. I would understand not wanting Zach attending public events. There is already a huge issue with women not feeling safe at events. Don't need to add to it.
I hope Zach has reformed. I hope he does a lot to atone for his actions. But, you can't undo the past, and people should always feel safe at events.
I think Wizards made the right choice, but that they need to address it and explain how it is different for other criminals.
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The bar is not being a saint, but Burning called him a "pillar of the community". That's what I was arguing against.
The criminal justice system is there for a reason, and Zach is still a violent registered sex offender. That registry also exists for a reason - because the justice system deems those on it to be worth warning people about so that they can take what measures they deem necessary to avoid unwanted association with that sort of criminal.
The law says he served his prison sentence, but it also says he's worthy of being on a list of people who committed violent sexual offenses. When he's eligible for removal from that list, and the panel judges him worthy of removal, that's when I'll consider the justice system to have declared him rehabilitated.
I think this is a well written and insightful post.
I think the first part goes beyond being a "woman" though. I would feel fairly uncomfortable sitting across from someone and thinking "oh. he raped someone in the anus. huh." I mean, sure, I wouldn't feel "unsafe," but it would definitely be an unenjoyable experience.
I think we have reached the point where we need an official policy. If wizard wants to make convictions of violent felonies a lifetime DCI ban, then I don't really have an issue with it. I'd prefer an explicit set of rules rather than just "doing what feels right" because that never works out.
MTGO thing still feels ridiculous though.
Next thing you know, war veterans won't be allowed to play because they murdered people for their country.
As Burning Paladin stated, this is just SJW "justice" and mob rule. And to not appear politically incorrect, they issued a ban.
If anything, Drew Levin should be banned for slander.
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Ultimately, WOTC can do literally whatever they want. But they handled this as poorly as possible. In particular, banning him from MTGO is just a joke. From what I've been able to find online(re: what Zack Jesse did), we are talking about one isolated incident that occurred while Jesse was drunk, and it occurred over a decade ago. He served his team(which was only 3 months to begin with) and has had no problems with the law since. People have to be allowed to move on from their past mistakes. The reason that we have such a high rate of recidivism in the US in criminals is precisely because no one ever wants to let anything go. Jail can rehabilitate people, when handled properly. It is pretty clear in Zack Jesse's case that it DID rehabilitate him.
The person that I am most disgusted with in all of this is Drew Levin. He literally went digging into Zack Jesse's past to find this, and then made a ridiculously big deal out of it when absolutely no one else knew about it. It was a complete non-issue. His behavior here is despicable.
Does any of this excuse Jesse's behavior? Of course not. But he has already served his sentence. The idea that he was declared fit to enter back into society and given a clean bill of mental health, but..somehow he's not fit to play Magic..is complete nonsense.
Now, here's the thing. He specifically says his post is not intended to minimize the crime. I think you're reading a lot into one reddit post. The dude pled guilty and doesn't deny what he did. He posted a link that detailed the whole case. The point he was trying to make was that he's not dangerous to anyone now.
This is my issue as well. Why a drug trafficker can be on the hall of fame is beyond me.
Look, the issue here is that regardless of what Zach did, Wizards doesn't have any kind of policy governing how to handle felons. Zach did his time, whether or not we agree that it was fair (I also think it was kind of bull*****). The victim's lawyer is quoted in that article saying that the victim wanted him held accountable, not buried under the jail.
Well, he's on the sex offender registry. Anyone from someone caught peeing on school property while drunk to serial killers can end up on the registry. It's not a good system, and getting removed is next to impossible except for some fringe cases. So you've essentially said 'never', which is a very long time. Now, he's had his civil rights restored by the state of virigina - would that count for your purposes?
There's nothing to indicate he's a repeat offender. No one is questioning what he did. The question is if he's still dangerous or a risk to anyone, which is ostensibly why he was banned.
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Is it different, though? Would we be having this conversation if he were convicted of a non-sexual violent crime? Should we be having this conversation if he were convicted of a non-sexual violent crime?
I'm sure you're aware that the implementation of sex offender registries is... controversial. I don't expect you would be satisfied by an argument like "The justice system has deemed this convicted murderer to be put to death, therefore I'm okay with that." (Even if you're pro-death-penalty, I hope you can appreciate what I'm getting at.)
By definition it cannot be slander if it is true.
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Oh I see how this game works. When the justice system says he has to serve 3 months of work release, I'm supposed to acknowledge that he's served his time and trust in the system, but when it says he has to be on a registry of violent sex offenders, then the system has a lot problems and I'm supposed to ignore it. Give me a ****ing break.
Type 1:
They pose a particular danger to that very community. For instance, this is the reason we don't allow people who've molested children to be kindergarten-teachers.
When doing this, we are basically saying: "Sorry, we can't trust you enough in certain aspects, so you can't do those things anymore, at least not without supervision".
Note that this argument cannot be applied to all communities: Only to those that are particularly vulnerable to certain kind of negative behavior.
Type 2:
We exclude people because they make us "feel" unsafe (even if we're not particularly vulnerable to the kind of crime that's been committed) or because we don't want to see people who've committed certain crimes, etc.
These are the kinds of arguments that are used by those in favor of banning Zach Jesse.
The important thing to note about such arguments is that they are applicable to ALL communities. If we want people like Zach Jesse banned from the MTG Community we should find it reasonable that all other communities ban him as well. If there is a good reason that the MTG Community ban him there's a good reason for EVERY community to ban him. If we think like this we throw overboard the idea of redemption for people who committed certain kind of crimes. We're saying that they should never again have a chance to be part of society and that their lives should be forever forfeited and that people like Zach Jesse should either be content with being alone forever or should kill themselves.
Allowing people to redeem themselves always entails that society will have to accept them back. It might not be nice at first to have a convict in your community (might take a while to trust him) but not accepting them back in is either pure egoism ("let someone else take him") or surrendering the idea of rehabilitation entirely. We, as a Community, should do none of these things.
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Well said. I can't blame Wizards and Hasbro for wanting to avoid the discomforting possibility that, if Zach Jesse won a major event, they would be obliged to publicly celebrate a convicted rapist.
The outrage that some members of the Magic community are expressing at Jesse's ban--outrage which will almost certainly dissipate after a few weeks--is nothing compared to the uproar that would emerge should the general public learn about the veneration of a sex offender.
It's important to evaluate the ban from the perspective of someone who knows and cares nothing about Magic. Would an outsider to the game, if told about Jesse's ban, be angry or even interested about the fact that someone is prevented from playing a silly card game? Doubtful. Would an outsider, by contrast, be upset if a convicted sex offender is venerated by a major corporation like Hasbro? You betcha.
It's not fair, but it doesn't have to be. Let's face it: rapists have a justifiably bad reputation in the public eye and a special place in hell.