I've for some time had a vague understanding of the reasons behind this currently polarizing matter of Islamic extremism that has, as far as I can tell, exploded in my lifetime. I'm looking to be informed on exactly what the religion of Islam is doing to the world's culture. Being someone who isn't religious, but rather empirically-minded and secular, I am not looking to be converted or anything like that. I just want to have a better understanding of the conflict that's become this big ugly ISIS movement in the past year. I was, I believe, 8 years old when 9/11 happened. As far as I know, there were previous wars and conflicts in the late 1900's that the US was involved in in the middle east, and somehow that big mess just kept getting worse after 2001 when things really escalated again.
So, what does Islam actually teach? I've never actually read the Qur'an so I know very, very little about Muslim culture and the conflicts those people are dealing with today. What factors at work are to blame for the present-day threat of terrorism that is happening all around the world? Is this state of affairs of countless suicide bombings and attacks new, or has this kind of thing been going on longer, before 2001? Just how big is Islam? Was the following before the new millennium smaller in scale than it is today? If so, when and why did it take off in popularity?
I've seen some debate before where people blame the doctrine for some of it's followers violent behavior, but I've also seen people arguing that the former isn't true at all, that the majority of Muslims are moderates. Which is correct? What are some things the world can do to bring this problem of religious extremism under control? It sure seems out of control from the news I've read in the past couple of years. I've been trying to catch up on the whole story of this conflict, since I paid little attention to it when I was younger and nowadays as I've grown older it's something that actually has put me on the fence about how far we should go to provide ourselves security as opposed to maintaining privacy rights, which in itself is a debate for another thread.
The violence we see today is the Frankenstein's monster of the Allied Powers of the first world war. In order to cripple the old man of the east, the Ottomans, they created this wave of Jihad. People such as T.E. Lawrence [of Arabia] went to every emir and shah they could find in the Middle East and promised them freedom and autonomy, while never intending to ever grant it. When the war ended, the seeds of nationalism had been planted but the locals had nothing to show for it. The Ottomans were gone and now England and France were their new rulers. This (kinda) simmers until the conclusion of the second world war where England, again the great victor, goes about carving up the region. Not wanting a second Jewish genocide and not wanting them in Europe either England accepts the growing Zionist movement (started in 1910) and offers the split of Palestine into two countries: Israel and Palestine with a joint capital in Jerusalem. The previous occupants of the area find this ridiculous, vote against it in the UN and declare war as soon as the resolution is passed. They lose. In their own independence war Israel manages to win, and is left hated by every surrounding country (because they just beat them in a war). The next part requires a little history on Zionism, and not the "Jews own the banks and media" kind but the actual factual kind. In the early 20th century Jews are being displaced from all over Europe due to deteriorating conditions in Tsarist Russia and elsewhere and don't have a homeland of their own since the Romans invaded Judea in the year 70ish. Jewish culture is relatively insular and thus are looked at with suspicion for the next 1800 years and while they survive it's not a pleasant time in Europe. In America things are better, and they begin to flourish. However the idea of returning to the homeland picks up popularity and by the turn of the 20th century there's an actual movement to make the state of Israel in Palestine, and for it to be a Jewish state. The movement is critical in the state's formation after the holocaust and the war. So now we know Zionism originated from America which is why Israel is able to lean so heavily on the US and survive despite the level of animosity of the surrounding nations. This created basically a tiny state that's rife with paranoia that after having to defend itself three times from surrounding nations has given up on the idea that it can wait for people to attack first. Because they're backed by the US you see animosity spell over from Israel to their sugar daddy in the west who turns a blind eye any time they do something bad, like say the last conflict where it got so bad the ICC is investigating them for war crimes.
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What's the big deal? You could have played multiple Righteous Avengers for years now.
I think that the main problem is that if you where to kill in the name of Christ / Krishna / Buddha you would have real writings to support the idea that you are going against the teachings of religion. With Islam that certainly is not the case. They are commanded to use the sword and have used the sword to conquer many places.
Also they hold none of the rights and privileges that us westerners hold sacred. They have no problem imposing there religious tyranny on others,.
Unless you bother to actually look through the Koran:
6:151: and do not kill a soul that God has made sacrosanct, save lawfully.
5:53:… whoso kills a soul, unless it be for murder or for wreaking corruption in the land, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind; and he who saves a life, it shall be as if he had given life to all mankind. Eight more reasons you're being racist.
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What's the big deal? You could have played multiple Righteous Avengers for years now.
Islam is not a race. Islam is a religion. Even the most bigoted hatred of Islam would not be racism. Conflation of Arabs and Muslims is a very real problem, perpetuating it by calling all people opposed to Islam racist doesn't help.
Like all other philosophies, religions and ideologies, ‘Islam’ teaches a variety of things. It’s the disconnect between theory and practice that causes problems, with every side considering themselves ‘right’. Thankfully, the majority of those who live in the Western world tend to incorporate more tolerant ideas (though not enough). However, those who preach a more violent version tend to have Islamic legal history on their side.
I just want to have a better understanding of the conflict that's become this big ugly ISIS movement in the past year. I was, I believe, 8 years old when 9/11 happened. As far as I know, there were previous wars and conflicts in the late 1900's that the US was involved in in the middle east, and somehow that big mess just kept getting worse after 2001 when things really escalated again.
This goes way back to the Colonial Period of the 1800s, if you really want to track it. I'll talk about specific factors, shortly.
So, what does Islam actually teach? I've never actually read the Qur'an so I know very, very little about Muslim culture and the conflicts those people are dealing with today.
Islam is an Abrahamic faith, like Judaism or Christianity. In fact, Muslims are a lot closer to Christians than Christians are to Jews - they even revere Jesus as a prophet.
Now, you also need to understand there is no 'Muslim Culture' anymore than there is a 'Christian Culture'. The actual culture is going to vary by the region. Islam is a faith, spread across the world and held by a quarter of the world's population.
What factors at work are to blame for the present-day threat of terrorism that is happening all around the world?
Ah! Here is the issue: The modern-day terrorism we see across the world is a result of political factors from the last two hundred years. There are a lot of factors, and we can talk about them more in depth later, but let me lay out a few:
- Western (and specifically American) support for dictators in the Middle East, Pakistan and North Africa. We supported these dictators for a few reasons: opposition to communism, support of beneficial trade with the US (specifically oil) and more recently opposition to Islamic fundamentalism. In Iran, we took so far as to overthrow the Prime Minister after he nationalized the petroleum reserves, which helped spark the Islamic Revolution there.
- As I mentioned with the opposition to Communism, in Afghanistan we actually supported the mujahdeen against the Soviets, many of whom would go on to become involved in Modern Day terrorism.
- Israel is a pretty big factor. I'm skipping over a lot, but essentially before World War II, Palestine had been controlled by the British and there was a fair mix of Jews and Arabs living peacefully together there, but the Jewish population was very much in the minority. After World War II, (and skipping over a LOT here, but research the Zionist movement if you want to know more) Israel was essentially forced on to Palestine, which at the time was still controlled by the British. The 1947 Partition Plan created a convoluted plan where the country would be split (unevenly) between the Arab and Jewish population, and where sections of one country would bizarely fall within another. This plan was rejected by the Arab population and the Arab league, and a short while later it led to the Arab-Israeli war, where the four surrounding countries invaded Israel. Israel won, obviously, and has held the rest of Palestine as occupied territory every since, with full support of the US Government.
I mean, I can go on and on about specific countries and issues, like Pakistan and the US' Support of Musharraf in Pakistan, or the US' support of Egyptian dictators but at this point you should get the idea that this is all about political tension in regions that happen to be Muslim.
But essentially, the majority of terrorism is a political tool to force policy change. And it works! The IRA got virtually everything they wanted from their campaign of violence in the 70's.
Islam just happens to be the religion of these regions, and we don't share that faith, so Anti-American sentiment can be whipped into demonizing Americans because of Religion. But it's just a tool, not the sole driving factor.
Is this state of affairs of countless suicide bombings and attacks new, or has this kind of thing been going on longer, before 2001? Just how big is Islam? Was the following before the new millennium smaller in scale than it is today? If so, when and why did it take off in popularity?
Actually, the world leader in Suicide bombings are the Marxist Tamil Tigers against the Muslim majority in Sri Lanka. Suicide bombings have gone on for a long time.
A quarter of the world's population is Muslim. I'm not really sure what you mean by 'following' or 'taking off in popularity', Islam isn't a boy band or anything. It's just most Americans were completely ignorant of Islam until 9/11. The majority of Muslims live in Asian countries (not the middle east) that have high populations.
I've seen some debate before where people blame the doctrine for some of it's followers violent behavior, but I've also seen people arguing that the former isn't true at all, that the majority of Muslims are moderates. Which is correct?
You'll have to research Islam more on your own to determine whether you think Doctrine plays a part. I don't, and I think I that politics is the far greater factor in extremism, with Religion simply being a useful tool. The IRA had an element of that as well, with the Irish Catholics versus the British Protestants.
What are some things the world can do to bring this problem of religious extremism under control? It sure seems out of control from the news I've read in the past couple of years. I've been trying to catch up on the whole story of this conflict, since I paid little attention to it when I was younger and nowadays as I've grown older it's something that actually has put me on the fence about how far we should go to provide ourselves security as opposed to maintaining privacy rights, which in itself is a debate for another thread.
There is no simple answer to this, at least nothing I could describe in a short forum post. For a simple answer, I would say we'd need to stop being such a perfect recruiting tool. Shut down our black sites, stop abducting people, stop drone strikes and 'acceptable' casualties, etc.
The reality here is that a lot of the damage has already been done, and there is no easy solution. There will be Anti-western sentiment throughout many Middle Eastern Countries for decades even after conflict has died down.
If you leave with nothing else, understand that Arabs are not 'the Middle East', and the Middle East are not 'Muslims'. People today love to conflate the issues and conflicts in the Middle East with Islam in general, and it's simply not true.
Also they hold none of the rights and privileges that us westerners hold sacred. They have no problem imposing there religious tyranny on others.
First of all, who is 'they'? Muslims in general? Specific Muslim countries? What?
This is a pretty ignorant (and ironic) statement. You're conflating a few different things here, considering there are millions of western Muslims who value 'western' ideas well. And other religions (including Christians) have zero problems imposing 'religious tyranny'. You're allowing a warped minority to influence your view of a quarter of the world's population.
If you ONLY mean Muslim Extremists, please be a little more specific so that we don't take what you're saying the wrong way.
Islam is not a race. Islam is a religion. Even the most bigoted hatred of Islam would not be racism. Conflation of Arabs and Muslims is a very real problem, perpetuating it by calling all people opposed to Islam racist doesn't help.
You're close. It's racist because the person I'm talking to is conflating the two talking about those people who allegedly don't share western values. Unlike say, whiter Muslims.
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What's the big deal? You could have played multiple Righteous Avengers for years now.
Islam is not a race. Islam is a religion. Even the most bigoted hatred of Islam would not be racism. Conflation of Arabs and Muslims is a very real problem, perpetuating it by calling all people opposed to Islam racist doesn't help.
You're close. It's racist because the person I'm talking to is conflating the two talking about those people who allegedly don't share western values. Unlike say, whiter Muslims.
bakgat made no reference to race in his post whatsoever. You're the only one bringing race into this debate.
(To be clear I think bakgat's position is misinformed if not outright wrong, but race has nothing to do with it.)
The violence we see today is the Frankenstein's monster of the Allied Powers of the first world war. In order to cripple the old man of the east, the Ottomans, they created this wave of Jihad. People such as T.E. Lawrence [of Arabia] went to every emir and shah they could find in the Middle East and promised them freedom and autonomy, while never intending to ever grant it. When the war ended, the seeds of nationalism had been planted but the locals had nothing to show for it. The Ottomans were gone and now England and France were their new rulers. This (kinda) simmers until the conclusion of the second world war where England, again the great victor, goes about carving up the region.
Not wanting a second Jewish genocide and not wanting them in Europe either England accepts the growing Zionist movement (started in 1910) and offers the split of Palestine into two countries: Israel and Palestine with a joint capital in Jerusalem.
Actually, Israel and Transjordan (now known simply as Jordan). And they actually agreed to it during the first war, but that's another issue.
In their own independence war Israel manages to win, and is left hated by every surrounding country (because they just beat them in a war). The next part requires a little history on Zionism, and not the "Jews own the banks and media" kind but the actual factual kind. In the early 20th century Jews are being displaced from all over Europe due to deteriorating conditions in Tsarist Russia and elsewhere and don't have a homeland of their own since the Romans invaded Judea in the year 70ish.
Zionism began in response to the l'Affaire Dreyfus, actually, which was a bit before the Russian Revolution.
Jewish culture is relatively insular and thus are looked at with suspicion for the next 1800 years and while they survive it's not a pleasant time in Europe. In America things are better, and they begin to flourish. However the idea of returning to the homeland picks up popularity and by the turn of the 20th century there's an actual movement to make the state of Israel in Palestine, and for it to be a Jewish state. The movement is critical in the state's formation after the holocaust and the war. So now we know Zionism originated from America which is why Israel is able to lean so heavily on the US and survive despite the level of animosity of the surrounding nations.
The US didn't even trade with Israel until the Kennedy administration! And Herzl was from Austria-Hungary!
This created basically a tiny state that's rife with paranoia that after having to defend itself three times from surrounding nations has given up on the idea that it can wait for people to attack first. Because they're backed by the US you see animosity spell over from Israel to their sugar daddy in the west who turns a blind eye any time they do something bad, like say the last conflict where it got so bad the ICC is investigating them for war crimes.
A lot of it is actually footage stolen from other Middle Eastern conflicts. You can see Syrian landmarks in the current generation of videos.
And could you tell the Palestinians to please stop saying 'indigenous' because they've 'been there a long time' (to use Salaita's oh-so-condescending phrase)? I'd say...over 1200 years, which is still a grain of sand compared to the hourglass we use for 'indigenous'. But when you use that, actual indigenous peoples get...offended.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Unless you bother to actually look through the Koran:
6:151: and do not kill a soul that God has made sacrosanct, save lawfully.
5:53:… whoso kills a soul, unless it be for murder or for wreaking corruption in the land, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind; and he who saves a life, it shall be as if he had given life to all mankind. Eight more reasons you're being racist.
If this racist may be given a moment do defend himself where does the next verse fit in to your theory?
Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing...
but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)"
Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."
Quran (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"
Quran (4:104) - "And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain..."
Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"
First of all, who is 'they'? Muslims in general? Specific Muslim countries? What?
This is a pretty ignorant (and ironic) statement. You're conflating a few different things here, considering there are millions of western Muslims who value 'western' ideas well. And other religions (including Christians) have zero problems imposing 'religious tyranny'. You're allowing a warped minority to influence your view of a quarter of the world's population.
If you ONLY mean Muslim Extremists, please be a little more specific so that we don't take what you're saying the wrong way.
It is not the minority. There is almost no Islamic nation that is completely religiously free,. Even in the 'liberal' arabic nations like the UAE you still cannot share you faith openly with muslims. For God's sake in Saudi Arabia you will receive the death penalty for the mere owning of a bible,. If that is not religious tyrrany then I really have no hope of understanding what the word means,.
It is not the minority. There is almost no Islamic nation that is completely religiously free,.
Even in the 'liberal' arabic nations like the UAE you still cannot share you faith openly with muslims. For God's sake in Saudi Arabia you will receive the death penalty for the mere owning of a bible,. If that is not religious tyrrany then I really have no hope of understanding what the word means,.
Oh, so you mean the Arabic nations. Yeah, that's true, but Arab and Muslim are not interchangeable terms, especially since even in the Arab world (like in Egypt) there are Muslim countries with religious freedom, and when fewer than 20% of the world's Muslims live in that region.
And lack of freedom of Religion isn't exactly exclusive to Muslims. This report from the US State Department makes it pretty clear that you've got cause and effect backwards, if you pay attention to the similarities between nations. It's political tyranny that gives way to the restricting of freedoms. Islam plays a part, for sure, but the two examples you mentioned are both Monarchies supported by the west (which goes back to my earlier points). Guess what? A ruling tyrant/monarch's religion is the religion forced on the population, as the Christian domination of Europe can attest.
It's a constant battle in the US - a country known for being founded on principles of religious freedom - to keep religion out of schools, the law, etc.
It gives its own context and the context is damming,. Two wrongs dont make a right and me pointing out those wrongs dont make me a racist.
I never said you were racist (and I don't think it was appropriately used), I said you're overgeneralizing and the statement came off pretty ignorantly. I don't think the problems that many Middle Eastern Countries face are good in any way, just not very different from the problems any other religious or authoritarian regime has experienced. And I certainly don't sympathize with fundamentalists of any kind, I'm trying to point out that the world are a lot more complicated than 'Muslim Bad'.
I've for some time had a vague understanding of the reasons behind this currently polarizing matter of Islamic extremism that has, as far as I can tell, exploded in my lifetime.
You really should do a web search for an "Introduction to Islam" article by a reputable institution with referenced sources. Read a couple of these. Just asking random people on the internet "What is Islam" is basically asking "what is you opinion of Islam?" which is a fine question to ask, but I assume that's not the question you want answered.
I think that the main problem is that if you where to kill in the name of Christ / Krishna / Buddha you would have real writings to support the idea that you are going against the teachings of religion. With Islam that certainly is not the case. They are commanded to use the sword and have used the sword to conquer many places.
Also they hold none of the rights and privileges that us westerners hold sacred. They have no problem imposing there religious tyranny on others,.
Firstly you are making enormous generalizations about the worlds 1 Billion Muslims. Every year thousands of Muslims are jailed and subject to torture in countries like Iran, Saudi Arabia, Malaysia and Syria because they advocated democracy and human rights in these places. Also there are in fact majority Muslim countries that are very liberal and tolerant, Albania, Kosovo and Tunisia are notable examples. The Arab Spring uprisings across North Africa and the Middle East is a massive human rights and Democracy movement.
On the subject of the Koran and the Bible, there are certain parallels between the two. They both have many verses advocating peace and love, and they both have many verses that say "And your enemies will bow before you, of their own will or by your sword". Here are a few from the Bible.
Numbers 31:1-18
Here Moses orders the slaughter of all male Midianite children and all women that are not virgins captured after the Midianites are defeated in battle, the women that are virgins are then given by Moses to be the "wives" of his soldiers.
1 Samuel 15:3
"3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass."
The Israelites are commanded by god to commit genocide on the Amelekites.
Deuteronomy 22:13-21
If a woman is found not to be a virgin she is to be stoned to death in front of her fathers front door by the men of the village.
Deuteronomy 21:18-21
Disobedient sons who are still disobedient even after punishment are to be brought to trial and if convicted, presumably of being disobedient, they are to be stoned to death.
Ephesians 6:5
tells slaves to serve their masters as they would serve christ.
Also while I believe you have a distorted view of Islam, nothing you have said so far indicates that this is because of the "race" of the Muslims across the world, I mean to say I don't think you are a racist and I think the accusation is flat out rediculous considering you didn't even mention race or biology until you were accused of being racist.
Like all other philosophies, religions and ideologies, ‘Islam’ teaches a variety of things. It’s the disconnect between theory and practice that causes problems, with every side considering themselves ‘right’. Thankfully, the majority of those who live in the Western world tend to incorporate more tolerant ideas (though not enough). However, those who preach a more violent version tend to have Islamic legal history on their side.
As I said and illustrated above, Islam is incredibly similar to Christianity in that both of these religions have holy books that have conflicting messages that sometimes advocate peace and love, and sometimes advocates vicious slaughter. They also both have a long history of their adherents committing terrible atrocities in the names of these religions and sanctioned by the religious leadership. Notable examples include the medieval crusades, the initial expansion of the first Islamic state, and European colonialism across Africa, Asia, the Americas, Australisia and the Pacific. The Pope divided the world into Spanish and Portuguese spheres of influence, and the expansion of the Russian and British Empires was not just racially motivated, but religiously motivated as well.
Bakgat: "It is not the minority. There is almost no Islamic nation that is completely religiously free,. Even in the 'liberal' arabic nations like the UAE you still cannot share you faith openly with muslims. For God's sake in Saudi Arabia you will receive the death penalty for the mere owning of a bible,. If that is not religious tyrrany then I really have no hope of understanding what the word means."
What proof do you have that the majority of Muslims wish to live in Islamic states without human rights and democracy?
Your second point about the UAE, very few people consider the UAE a liberal Muslim country, it is almost always referred to as a "relatively moderate" Muslim majority country.
Also while freedom of religion is essentially non-existant in Saudi Arabia, I did some websearching and I couldn't find any reports by a news organisation that owning or smuggling in a bible to Saudi Arabia was grounds for the death penalty. I did find a number of Christian blogs repeating the claim "a recently passed law in Saudi Arabia makes it a capital offense to smuggle bibles into the country" but if there really was a law like this passed recently, there would have been an announcement by Saudi authorities and commentary by international news organizations on this event.
"If that is not religious tyrrany then I really have no hope of understanding what the word means"
Current Saudi religious policies are tyrannical, there is no disagreement there.
I've for some time had a vague understanding of the reasons behind this currently polarizing matter of Islamic extremism that has, as far as I can tell, exploded in my lifetime. I'm looking to be informed on exactly what the religion of Islam is doing to the world's culture.
If you want to learn about this issue it is best not to think of Muslims as extremist. For instance, you start off discussing extremism and immediately imply that it must be something associated with the teachings of the religion that causes it. The issue at its core is the literal interpretation of the religion by individuals or groups in conjunction with real-world observations. Although Islamic religious schools that promote non-western ideals exist, most people do not become an extremist and the ones who do normally are not swayed by religion per se, they normally encounter a person who points them and shows them the path. Extremism is not manifested by book or religion, it's perpetuated by idealistic people who perceive a problem then conceive a radical solution then point to some form of literature to validate their extreme ideology.
As you may have noticed many people make the same mistake of conflating religion and extremism and start comparing Bible and Qua ran verses with out considering people of all religions backgrounds have become increasingly socialized and civilized or simply put, not taking literal interpretation or applying historical context to today's society.
As westerners, most of us find terrorism/extremism as a despicable form of political expression and unfortunately we have many who want to prevent this sorta global war around religion but the reality is, in my opinion, the war has already started and there is no stopping it. There are fundamental ideological challenges between Islamic extremism and western ideology that cant be solved with pragmatic solutions. These challenges include freedom of press, religion and speech which directly destroys Islamic culture and society, or so they say.
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So, what does Islam actually teach? I've never actually read the Qur'an so I know very, very little about Muslim culture and the conflicts those people are dealing with today. What factors at work are to blame for the present-day threat of terrorism that is happening all around the world? Is this state of affairs of countless suicide bombings and attacks new, or has this kind of thing been going on longer, before 2001? Just how big is Islam? Was the following before the new millennium smaller in scale than it is today? If so, when and why did it take off in popularity?
I've seen some debate before where people blame the doctrine for some of it's followers violent behavior, but I've also seen people arguing that the former isn't true at all, that the majority of Muslims are moderates. Which is correct? What are some things the world can do to bring this problem of religious extremism under control? It sure seems out of control from the news I've read in the past couple of years. I've been trying to catch up on the whole story of this conflict, since I paid little attention to it when I was younger and nowadays as I've grown older it's something that actually has put me on the fence about how far we should go to provide ourselves security as opposed to maintaining privacy rights, which in itself is a debate for another thread.
Also they hold none of the rights and privileges that us westerners hold sacred. They have no problem imposing there religious tyranny on others,.
6:151: and do not kill a soul that God has made sacrosanct, save lawfully.
5:53:… whoso kills a soul, unless it be for murder or for wreaking corruption in the land, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind; and he who saves a life, it shall be as if he had given life to all mankind.
Eight more reasons you're being racist.
Islam is not a race. Islam is a religion. Even the most bigoted hatred of Islam would not be racism. Conflation of Arabs and Muslims is a very real problem, perpetuating it by calling all people opposed to Islam racist doesn't help.
This goes way back to the Colonial Period of the 1800s, if you really want to track it. I'll talk about specific factors, shortly.
Islam is an Abrahamic faith, like Judaism or Christianity. In fact, Muslims are a lot closer to Christians than Christians are to Jews - they even revere Jesus as a prophet.
This BBC Site is a good place to start if you want to learn: http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/
Now, you also need to understand there is no 'Muslim Culture' anymore than there is a 'Christian Culture'. The actual culture is going to vary by the region. Islam is a faith, spread across the world and held by a quarter of the world's population.
Ah! Here is the issue: The modern-day terrorism we see across the world is a result of political factors from the last two hundred years. There are a lot of factors, and we can talk about them more in depth later, but let me lay out a few:
- Western (and specifically American) support for dictators in the Middle East, Pakistan and North Africa. We supported these dictators for a few reasons: opposition to communism, support of beneficial trade with the US (specifically oil) and more recently opposition to Islamic fundamentalism. In Iran, we took so far as to overthrow the Prime Minister after he nationalized the petroleum reserves, which helped spark the Islamic Revolution there.
- As I mentioned with the opposition to Communism, in Afghanistan we actually supported the mujahdeen against the Soviets, many of whom would go on to become involved in Modern Day terrorism.
- Israel is a pretty big factor. I'm skipping over a lot, but essentially before World War II, Palestine had been controlled by the British and there was a fair mix of Jews and Arabs living peacefully together there, but the Jewish population was very much in the minority. After World War II, (and skipping over a LOT here, but research the Zionist movement if you want to know more) Israel was essentially forced on to Palestine, which at the time was still controlled by the British. The 1947 Partition Plan created a convoluted plan where the country would be split (unevenly) between the Arab and Jewish population, and where sections of one country would bizarely fall within another. This plan was rejected by the Arab population and the Arab league, and a short while later it led to the Arab-Israeli war, where the four surrounding countries invaded Israel. Israel won, obviously, and has held the rest of Palestine as occupied territory every since, with full support of the US Government.
I mean, I can go on and on about specific countries and issues, like Pakistan and the US' Support of Musharraf in Pakistan, or the US' support of Egyptian dictators but at this point you should get the idea that this is all about political tension in regions that happen to be Muslim.
I recommend looking up Robert Pape, who is gaining notice and has studied suicide attacks extensively: http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/the-logic-of-suicide-terrorism/
But essentially, the majority of terrorism is a political tool to force policy change. And it works! The IRA got virtually everything they wanted from their campaign of violence in the 70's.
Islam just happens to be the religion of these regions, and we don't share that faith, so Anti-American sentiment can be whipped into demonizing Americans because of Religion. But it's just a tool, not the sole driving factor.
Actually, the world leader in Suicide bombings are the Marxist Tamil Tigers against the Muslim majority in Sri Lanka. Suicide bombings have gone on for a long time.
A quarter of the world's population is Muslim. I'm not really sure what you mean by 'following' or 'taking off in popularity', Islam isn't a boy band or anything. It's just most Americans were completely ignorant of Islam until 9/11. The majority of Muslims live in Asian countries (not the middle east) that have high populations.
You'll have to research Islam more on your own to determine whether you think Doctrine plays a part. I don't, and I think I that politics is the far greater factor in extremism, with Religion simply being a useful tool. The IRA had an element of that as well, with the Irish Catholics versus the British Protestants.
There is no simple answer to this, at least nothing I could describe in a short forum post. For a simple answer, I would say we'd need to stop being such a perfect recruiting tool. Shut down our black sites, stop abducting people, stop drone strikes and 'acceptable' casualties, etc.
The reality here is that a lot of the damage has already been done, and there is no easy solution. There will be Anti-western sentiment throughout many Middle Eastern Countries for decades even after conflict has died down.
If you leave with nothing else, understand that Arabs are not 'the Middle East', and the Middle East are not 'Muslims'. People today love to conflate the issues and conflicts in the Middle East with Islam in general, and it's simply not true.
First of all, who is 'they'? Muslims in general? Specific Muslim countries? What?
This is a pretty ignorant (and ironic) statement. You're conflating a few different things here, considering there are millions of western Muslims who value 'western' ideas well. And other religions (including Christians) have zero problems imposing 'religious tyranny'. You're allowing a warped minority to influence your view of a quarter of the world's population.
If you ONLY mean Muslim Extremists, please be a little more specific so that we don't take what you're saying the wrong way.
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You're close. It's racist because the person I'm talking to is conflating the two talking about those people who allegedly don't share western values. Unlike say, whiter Muslims.
bakgat made no reference to race in his post whatsoever. You're the only one bringing race into this debate.
(To be clear I think bakgat's position is misinformed if not outright wrong, but race has nothing to do with it.)
So far, so good.
Actually, Israel and Transjordan (now known simply as Jordan). And they actually agreed to it during the first war, but that's another issue.
Though there were Jews in Palestine for all of recorded history, so 'previous occupants' is cute.
Also, many of them were the remnant of Haj Amin al-Husseini supporters. al-Husseini himself supported Hitler.
Zionism began in response to the l'Affaire Dreyfus, actually, which was a bit before the Russian Revolution.
The US didn't even trade with Israel until the Kennedy administration! And Herzl was from Austria-Hungary!
A lot of it is actually footage stolen from other Middle Eastern conflicts. You can see Syrian landmarks in the current generation of videos.
And could you tell the Palestinians to please stop saying 'indigenous' because they've 'been there a long time' (to use Salaita's oh-so-condescending phrase)? I'd say...over 1200 years, which is still a grain of sand compared to the hourglass we use for 'indigenous'. But when you use that, actual indigenous peoples get...offended.
On phasing:
This isn't pee-wee's playhouse, you don't have to actually say the word to be doing it.
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If this racist may be given a moment do defend himself where does the next verse fit in to your theory?
It is not the minority. There is almost no Islamic nation that is completely religiously free,. Even in the 'liberal' arabic nations like the UAE you still cannot share you faith openly with muslims. For God's sake in Saudi Arabia you will receive the death penalty for the mere owning of a bible,. If that is not religious tyrrany then I really have no hope of understanding what the word means,.
Oh, so you mean the Arabic nations. Yeah, that's true, but Arab and Muslim are not interchangeable terms, especially since even in the Arab world (like in Egypt) there are Muslim countries with religious freedom, and when fewer than 20% of the world's Muslims live in that region.
And lack of freedom of Religion isn't exactly exclusive to Muslims. This report from the US State Department makes it pretty clear that you've got cause and effect backwards, if you pay attention to the similarities between nations. It's political tyranny that gives way to the restricting of freedoms. Islam plays a part, for sure, but the two examples you mentioned are both Monarchies supported by the west (which goes back to my earlier points). Guess what? A ruling tyrant/monarch's religion is the religion forced on the population, as the Christian domination of Europe can attest.
It's a constant battle in the US - a country known for being founded on principles of religious freedom - to keep religion out of schools, the law, etc.
Also, do you really want to play the 'pick a religious text quote out of context' game? Because I've got news for you.
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[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
I never said you were racist (and I don't think it was appropriately used), I said you're overgeneralizing and the statement came off pretty ignorantly. I don't think the problems that many Middle Eastern Countries face are good in any way, just not very different from the problems any other religious or authoritarian regime has experienced. And I certainly don't sympathize with fundamentalists of any kind, I'm trying to point out that the world are a lot more complicated than 'Muslim Bad'.
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[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
You really should do a web search for an "Introduction to Islam" article by a reputable institution with referenced sources. Read a couple of these. Just asking random people on the internet "What is Islam" is basically asking "what is you opinion of Islam?" which is a fine question to ask, but I assume that's not the question you want answered.
Firstly you are making enormous generalizations about the worlds 1 Billion Muslims. Every year thousands of Muslims are jailed and subject to torture in countries like Iran, Saudi Arabia, Malaysia and Syria because they advocated democracy and human rights in these places. Also there are in fact majority Muslim countries that are very liberal and tolerant, Albania, Kosovo and Tunisia are notable examples. The Arab Spring uprisings across North Africa and the Middle East is a massive human rights and Democracy movement.
On the subject of the Koran and the Bible, there are certain parallels between the two. They both have many verses advocating peace and love, and they both have many verses that say "And your enemies will bow before you, of their own will or by your sword". Here are a few from the Bible.
Numbers 31:1-18
Here Moses orders the slaughter of all male Midianite children and all women that are not virgins captured after the Midianites are defeated in battle, the women that are virgins are then given by Moses to be the "wives" of his soldiers.
1 Samuel 15:3
"3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass."
The Israelites are commanded by god to commit genocide on the Amelekites.
Deuteronomy 22:13-21
If a woman is found not to be a virgin she is to be stoned to death in front of her fathers front door by the men of the village.
Deuteronomy 21:18-21
Disobedient sons who are still disobedient even after punishment are to be brought to trial and if convicted, presumably of being disobedient, they are to be stoned to death.
Ephesians 6:5
tells slaves to serve their masters as they would serve christ.
Also while I believe you have a distorted view of Islam, nothing you have said so far indicates that this is because of the "race" of the Muslims across the world, I mean to say I don't think you are a racist and I think the accusation is flat out rediculous considering you didn't even mention race or biology until you were accused of being racist.
As I said and illustrated above, Islam is incredibly similar to Christianity in that both of these religions have holy books that have conflicting messages that sometimes advocate peace and love, and sometimes advocates vicious slaughter. They also both have a long history of their adherents committing terrible atrocities in the names of these religions and sanctioned by the religious leadership. Notable examples include the medieval crusades, the initial expansion of the first Islamic state, and European colonialism across Africa, Asia, the Americas, Australisia and the Pacific. The Pope divided the world into Spanish and Portuguese spheres of influence, and the expansion of the Russian and British Empires was not just racially motivated, but religiously motivated as well.
Bakgat: "It is not the minority. There is almost no Islamic nation that is completely religiously free,. Even in the 'liberal' arabic nations like the UAE you still cannot share you faith openly with muslims. For God's sake in Saudi Arabia you will receive the death penalty for the mere owning of a bible,. If that is not religious tyrrany then I really have no hope of understanding what the word means."
What proof do you have that the majority of Muslims wish to live in Islamic states without human rights and democracy?
Your second point about the UAE, very few people consider the UAE a liberal Muslim country, it is almost always referred to as a "relatively moderate" Muslim majority country.
Also while freedom of religion is essentially non-existant in Saudi Arabia, I did some websearching and I couldn't find any reports by a news organisation that owning or smuggling in a bible to Saudi Arabia was grounds for the death penalty. I did find a number of Christian blogs repeating the claim "a recently passed law in Saudi Arabia makes it a capital offense to smuggle bibles into the country" but if there really was a law like this passed recently, there would have been an announcement by Saudi authorities and commentary by international news organizations on this event.
"If that is not religious tyrrany then I really have no hope of understanding what the word means"
Current Saudi religious policies are tyrannical, there is no disagreement there.
If you want to learn about this issue it is best not to think of Muslims as extremist. For instance, you start off discussing extremism and immediately imply that it must be something associated with the teachings of the religion that causes it. The issue at its core is the literal interpretation of the religion by individuals or groups in conjunction with real-world observations. Although Islamic religious schools that promote non-western ideals exist, most people do not become an extremist and the ones who do normally are not swayed by religion per se, they normally encounter a person who points them and shows them the path. Extremism is not manifested by book or religion, it's perpetuated by idealistic people who perceive a problem then conceive a radical solution then point to some form of literature to validate their extreme ideology.
As you may have noticed many people make the same mistake of conflating religion and extremism and start comparing Bible and Qua ran verses with out considering people of all religions backgrounds have become increasingly socialized and civilized or simply put, not taking literal interpretation or applying historical context to today's society.
As westerners, most of us find terrorism/extremism as a despicable form of political expression and unfortunately we have many who want to prevent this sorta global war around religion but the reality is, in my opinion, the war has already started and there is no stopping it. There are fundamental ideological challenges between Islamic extremism and western ideology that cant be solved with pragmatic solutions. These challenges include freedom of press, religion and speech which directly destroys Islamic culture and society, or so they say.