Anecdotally I'll admit that my "tumblr liberal" friends seem to be products of extreme insularity and self-congratulation but this is not a new problem. Media sources have always been able to pick and choose their writers and their topics. The same processes that delay output in traditional media also give the editors greater control over the final product, I believe one study even found greater ideological consistency in newspapers.
A possible problem with the internet is that it exacerbates this.
Yes. You can certainly find a newspaper that supports your view, but that is merely one source. Nor does a newspaper talk back to you and agree with every little thing you say.
The internet, particularly forums like these, allow the above. You meet a couple people who agree with everything you say, and they point you to other people who agree with everything you say. Eventually you become surrounded by people who just agree with what you say, and you become deluded.
I'd argue the opposite is more true.
While the internet does provide a method to isolate yourself that is not new. The new thing the internet does is facilitate leaving isolation.
Any belief (or even an outright lie) can be presented with confidence by a skilled speaker. I like to know I'm not being swayed by rhetoric so I've gotten into the habit of trying not to believe things I can't defend. The internet allows me to quickly find detractors if I wash (still looking for a good takedown of Bayesian statistics to study). Fifty years ago if someone told me "Only two historical documents reference Caesar" I would probably just roll my eyes and leave, now I can go check the standing of that belief and potentially change my mind if it turns out to be true.
If you're not aware of it - many sites that serve content automatically filter content based on how likely you are to engage with it, and this does turn out to filter out the opposing viewpoint. Yes, the web can be used to break free of your personal echo chamber, but doing so takes an act of will; using it automatically the way most people engage with it, the web creates an echo chamber around you.
And again, it's not because anyone is doing anything malicious.
If you're not aware of it - many sites that serve content automatically filter content based on how likely you are to engage with it, and this does turn out to filter out the opposing viewpoint.
The only new thing about that is it being done by computer.
Do you think the editors of the Libertarian Review are generally going to publish a positive piece on Kenyesian economics? Do you think the editors of the New York Times are generally going to publish a positive piece on Reagan?
Yes, the web can be used to break free of your personal echo chamber, but doing so takes an act of will; using it automatically the way most people engage with it, the web creates an echo chamber around you.
You're forgetting that such an act of will used to not be an option at all. I cannot one day think "I wonder why Libertarians oppose minimum wage." and go flip through the Times to find it. I can do that with the internet. The internet happens to be current medium of our echo chambers but it is a far less effective medium for them than any that has previously existed.
All I saw in that thread was a sea of anti-religious and other leftist bigotry running unchecked.
Hmmm, I guess it's a perspective thing.
I don't think anyone is saying that right-leaning members are perfect, though. Just that the vocal leftist are a pretty good example of the worst this forum has to offer.
I think that's a pretty hefty accusation. I'd argue that the left, centre, right, etc all have proponents on the forum that would qualify as some of the worst the forum have to offer. Some people just suck, it's not a trait of any one political leaning. I think vilifying any one side of the political spectrum here is narrow-minded at best.
I know im being a little heavy handed with the accusation, but I have yet to see a rightie as bad as a leftie in the regulars. Can you give me an example?
EDIT: You highlight an important point. This is all about perspective on this forum, generally speaking, is far more tolerant of hate towards conservatives. (which you dont even see as hate)
All I saw in that thread was a sea of anti-religious and other leftist bigotry running unchecked.
Hmmm, I guess it's a perspective thing.
I don't think anyone is saying that right-leaning members are perfect, though. Just that the vocal leftist are a pretty good example of the worst this forum has to offer.
I think that's a pretty hefty accusation. I'd argue that the left, centre, right, etc all have proponents on the forum that would qualify as some of the worst the forum have to offer. Some people just suck, it's not a trait of any one political leaning. I think vilifying any one side of the political spectrum here is narrow-minded at best.
I know im being a little heavy handed with the accusation, but I have yet to see a rightie as bad as a leftie in the regulars. Can you give me an example?
I'm wondering what you think that means. I'm a liberal whose unfriended someone and would fall on that poll. Why?
Because the former friend called me a race traitor for voting for president Obama and then went on a racial rant all over facebook. Now, does my decision to unfriend that person reflect poorly on me? I don't think so. :/
well regardless of the results of the survey, the fact that you've managed to take a statistical reality about an aggregate of people personally suggests you're liberal
I know im being a little heavy handed with the accusation, but I have yet to see a rightie as bad as a leftie in the regulars. Can you give me an example?
I don't think we should start pointing fingers at specific members of the forum as "the worst this forum has to offer". You may be comfortable with that, but I consider it trolling and I'm not willing to risk the staff agreeing with me.
Moreover, I typically utilize my Ignore List when a poster has crossed the threshold from a poster with differing views that I want to converse with to poster who has consistently shown that they're unwilling to listen to differing views and will stubbornly (and often ignorantly) fight when people disagree. So I wouldn't have many recent examples in the first place. But I do recall one particular WCT thread (though it involved posters that also post in Debate) on the mistreatment of women in the gaming industry where the posts from two particularly conservative members led to me taking a break from MTGS as a whole.
EDIT: You highlight an important point. This is all about perspective on this forum, generally speaking, is far more tolerant of hate towards conservatives. (which you dont even see as hate)
Could you please describe the nature of this hate towards conservatives?
well regardless of the results of the survey, the fact that you've managed to take a statistical reality about an aggregate of people personally suggests you're liberal
Okay, nice. But again, what do you think the results of this poll mean?
People really block others based on political statuses? Really? I guess you never really can discount the pettiness of people.
The only people I've eliminated from my accounts are a heroin addict and high school "friends" who conveniently forgot to invite me to reunions and get-togethers for years and years.
People really block others based on political statuses? Really? I guess you never really can discount the pettiness of people.
Unless I'm relatively close to a person and feel a dialogue would be worth my time, I totally delete people from my Facebook for political reasons. Especially if what they're posting is racist, sexist and/or homophobic. I don't need to surround myself with people who would publicly post discriminatory things in that way. Is that pettiness?
well regardless of the results of the survey, the fact that you've managed to take a statistical reality about an aggregate of people personally suggests you're liberal
Please do explain why such an action would indicate being liberal. I am eager to hear (well, read).
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Quote from MD »
I am willing to bet my collection that Frozen and Solid are not on the same card. For example, Frozen Tomb and Solid Wall.
If Frozen Solid is not reprinted, you are aware that I'm quoting you in my sig for eternity?
I think its likely accurate - although its more of an indicator of chain posting and obnoxious offensive posts that tends to come hand in hand with being 'antiliberal'.
When you find yourself being insulted constantly or spammed its really easy to ignore people.
I've got two friends that have offended people into ignoring them with regularity because of each reason. (Jeremy a Libertarian politician running as an R (low local office) being a spammer and Mike being an anarchist that constantly links anything anti political and edgy - most of the edgy stuff linking to TheBlaze and similar)
Jeremy actually committed to 'slow down' to ONLY five political links a day. His peak was in the thirties. All with abstracts and at least a paragraph of his own feelings.
The 18% of SNS users who had dumped or shunned someone because of their political disagreements were asked a follow-up question about the people who were dropped. The majority were people who did not have deep connections to the user who dropped them:
67% of those who blocked, unfriended, or hid someone on a social networking site did it to a distant friend or acquaintance
31% of those who blocked, unfriended, or hid someone on a social networking site did it to someone they had never met in person
31% of those who blocked, unfriended, or hid someone on a social networking site did it to a close personal friend
21% of those who blocked, unfriended, or hid someone on a social networking site did it to a coworker
18% of those who blocked, unfriended, or hid someone on a social networking site did it to a member of their family The cohort is so small that it is not possible to do a statistically reliable analysis of trends. But as a rule, there were no ideological differences among those who had dropped someone from their SNS world because of politics.
no one is saying we don't post for fear of offending others. we don't post because disagreeing with the hivemind is pointless.
I did not post that picture to say something about you. I posted the picture to show blatch that the internet is not nice to both sides. He sees vilification against him on these forums, but he might miss all the times i feel the same way.
LOL, good catch - something that does seem oddly typical. (I blame people getting links from blogs crosslinking them partially causing them to miss content since reading twice in full is a waste rather than obfuscation attempts)
Could you please describe the nature of this hate towards conservatives?
Well, for example, there is countless amounts of anti-christian bigotry that I see every single time that the religion is discussed. Hateful, pointless slander, and it is often not seen as bigotry or hate.
Was that women and gaming thread about sarkseesan, out of curiosity?
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Commander Decks G MGC WB Teysa Tokens BR Wortsnort UG 23.5-No Edric URG Noncombo Animar GUB Damia Stax WBR Alesha Hatebear Recursion WBR Daddy Tariel UBR [Je]love-a Your Deck GWU Almost Critterless Enchantress WUB Sydri+Artifacts=WUB WURG Glint-Eye Combo
Unless I'm relatively close to a person and feel a dialogue would be worth my time, I totally delete people from my Facebook for political reasons. Especially if what they're posting is racist, sexist and/or homophobic. I don't need to surround myself with people who would publicly post discriminatory things in that way. Is that pettiness?
It shows a lack of judgment to add a bigot to FB. If you add just anyone to your FB that's not good. Granted, there are people who become that way due to some catastrophic circumstance or falling in with the wrong crowd, in which it might be justified.
I remember this one guy that I went to grad school with, real cool guy, had some bad things happen to him in the past women-wise, and I was the only one who believed his story because a friend of my fiance had the same thing happen to him. He discovered the MRA subreddit while on a severe bout of unemployment. He started messaging me every day about how rape victims were lying about it. I have a full-time job, I don't have time to read several blogs a day and argue about it. It got to the point of where he messaged me and said he was afraid of women. Then I got fed up and trolled him mercilessly. He deleted me from his FB and blocked me. I feel bad about it, though. I may have been his only real source of support, because I helped him through two severe crises. If I ever encounter him again I plan on apologizing and making amends, but I doubt he'll accept them.
Tl;dr is that deleting and trolling may not be the best answer, especially if it's a good friend. Try to be patient. I lost a friend and gained a powerful enemy because I took the head-on approach.
And never add someone to FB you just met or are casual acquaintances. There are some weirdos out there.
It's exactly as petty to never associate with people you think might be bigots as it is to remove bigots from your social circle.
I prefer not to beat my head against the wall each time I hang out with friends or open my FB page. I don't have time for that. Investing time and energy with friends is quite frankly exhausting when you work more than 40 hours a week.
I don't think we should start pointing fingers at specific members of the forum as "the worst this forum has to offer". You may be comfortable with that, but I consider it trolling and I'm not willing to risk the staff agreeing with me.
Well, no. I tend to think it's flaming.
The card is just as red, though.
Seriously, people, who starts throwing around these accusations and thinks, "Surely this will be a civil and productive conversation from which everybody will walk away a little bit happier and wiser"? Don't do it.
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Vive, vale. Siquid novisti rectius istis,
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
There's no specific reason. Far leftists is just the type of demographic an English, fantasy based, trading card game, internet forum garners.
Some reasons why this would attract individuals who sway to the left:
- younger
- many Europeans
Your kidding right.
Are you forgetting that the Magic demographic leans incredibly hard on the white and male spectrum....
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Don't you see that the whole aim of Moderators is to narrow the range of thought? In the end we shall make infractions literally impossible, because there will be no words in which to express it. Every concept that can ever be needed, will be expressed by exactly one word, with its meaning rigidly defined and all its subsidiary meanings rubbed out and forgotten.
Which is exactly why we need to scrutinize the claim the OP is making, which leaves nebulous who, precisely, is being driven out of the forums.
Talking to many people outside of the subforum, it does seem like the Debate subsection has quite the reputation as a bunch of 'wankers.'
I know the nitpicking nature of the denizens of this subsection has driven more casual posters away, quite often. Let's face it: This is one of the LEAST welcoming parts of the forum.
I'd say the Gutter accepted more people with open arms than we do, in general. I know I expect to have everything I say here torn apart, even by those I would conciser "friends" (in fact, that's WHY I'd consider them friends). That kind of abrasive environment isn't something many people enjoy, and our culture has caused many a poster to stay far away from this subsection.
I--of course--include myself in that critic since it's obvious I've been one* of the more caustic members. But, I also don't think I'm an atypical example of a poster on this debate forum.
Could you please describe the nature of this hate towards conservatives?
Well, for example, there is countless amounts of anti-christian bigotry that I see every single time that the religion is discussed. Hateful, pointless slander, and it is often not seen as bigotry or hate.
I presumed as much, I was asking for examples specifically to see what you consider anti-Christian bigotry as I don't see many examples of it and the rare occasions of it are dealt with by the mods. I fear you take questioning Christian beliefs to be the same as bigotry (a relatively common sentiment I've noticed, and a very worrying one), which is why I asked for more clarification.
Was that women and gaming thread about sarkseesan, out of curiosity?
I think so, but I couldn't say for sure. It was 8 months to a year ago.
It's not like every bigot in the world identifies themselves. It often takes circumstances for someone's ugliness to appear. The Phil Robertson hoopla is a good example, it showed a lot of people for the bigots they are.
If you add just anyone to your FB that's not good.
Examples of people I deleted from Facebook due to gross socio-political ignorance and/or discrimination: someone I went to school with for 13 years and kept in touch with via FB (anti-Semitism, homophobia and faux religious persecution), a coworker of two years (blatant sexism), and my cousin I grew up with (homophobic remarks). I don't just add anyone nor do I delete anyone without great reason.
I presumed as much, I was asking for examples specifically to see what you consider anti-Christian bigotry as I don't see many examples of it and the rare occasions of it are dealt with by the mods. I fear you take questioning Christian beliefs to be the same as bigotry (a relatively common sentiment I've noticed, and a very worrying one), which is why I asked for more clarification.
I mean, you'll get condescension, but that just comes with the territory around here. In terms of outright caustic behavior, I think the mods do a good job filtering it out.
I might just have a thicker skin for it though. If you can't handle people vehemently disagreeing with your beliefs, this is not a good place for you. Then again, that's why I come here, so go figure.
There's no specific reason. Far leftists is just the type of demographic an English, fantasy based, trading card game, internet forum garners.
Some reasons why this would attract individuals who sway to the left:
- younger
- many Europeans
Your kidding right.
Are you forgetting that the Magic demographic leans incredibly hard on the white and male spectrum....
You do realize that white males under 30 still lean left in the US, and I'd imagine even more skewed in the EU, right?
It's less dramatic than other groups but it's still a left lean - something like 60% of college age males are D, 30% R and 10% I as of a few years ago with Obama and TEA/Libertarian probably pulling more of those R's away.
A few specific colleges are conservative on average for the men (only a handful for the women however) but that's a fraction of the college age men. [And Magic players by far attend college - so non-college world isn't too relevant to the "common demographic"]
If you're not aware of it - many sites that serve content automatically filter content based on how likely you are to engage with it, and this does turn out to filter out the opposing viewpoint. Yes, the web can be used to break free of your personal echo chamber, but doing so takes an act of will; using it automatically the way most people engage with it, the web creates an echo chamber around you.
And again, it's not because anyone is doing anything malicious.
The only new thing about that is it being done by computer.
Do you think the editors of the Libertarian Review are generally going to publish a positive piece on Kenyesian economics? Do you think the editors of the New York Times are generally going to publish a positive piece on Reagan?
You're forgetting that such an act of will used to not be an option at all. I cannot one day think "I wonder why Libertarians oppose minimum wage." and go flip through the Times to find it. I can do that with the internet. The internet happens to be current medium of our echo chambers but it is a far less effective medium for them than any that has previously existed.
I know im being a little heavy handed with the accusation, but I have yet to see a rightie as bad as a leftie in the regulars. Can you give me an example?
EDIT: You highlight an important point. This is all about perspective on this forum, generally speaking, is far more tolerant of hate towards conservatives. (which you dont even see as hate)
G MGC
WB Teysa Tokens
BR Wortsnort
UG 23.5-No Edric
URG Noncombo Animar
GUB Damia Stax
WBR Alesha Hatebear Recursion
WBR Daddy Tariel
UBR [Je]love-a Your Deck
GWU Almost Critterless Enchantress
WUB Sydri+Artifacts=WUB
WURG Glint-Eye Combo
Fresh Prince O'Baudelaire?
well regardless of the results of the survey, the fact that you've managed to take a statistical reality about an aggregate of people personally suggests you're liberal
I don't think we should start pointing fingers at specific members of the forum as "the worst this forum has to offer". You may be comfortable with that, but I consider it trolling and I'm not willing to risk the staff agreeing with me.
Moreover, I typically utilize my Ignore List when a poster has crossed the threshold from a poster with differing views that I want to converse with to poster who has consistently shown that they're unwilling to listen to differing views and will stubbornly (and often ignorantly) fight when people disagree. So I wouldn't have many recent examples in the first place. But I do recall one particular WCT thread (though it involved posters that also post in Debate) on the mistreatment of women in the gaming industry where the posts from two particularly conservative members led to me taking a break from MTGS as a whole.
ETA:
Could you please describe the nature of this hate towards conservatives?
Okay, nice. But again, what do you think the results of this poll mean?
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
The only people I've eliminated from my accounts are a heroin addict and high school "friends" who conveniently forgot to invite me to reunions and get-togethers for years and years.
Unless I'm relatively close to a person and feel a dialogue would be worth my time, I totally delete people from my Facebook for political reasons. Especially if what they're posting is racist, sexist and/or homophobic. I don't need to surround myself with people who would publicly post discriminatory things in that way. Is that pettiness?
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
Please do explain why such an action would indicate being liberal. I am eager to hear (well, read).
When you find yourself being insulted constantly or spammed its really easy to ignore people.
I've got two friends that have offended people into ignoring them with regularity because of each reason. (Jeremy a Libertarian politician running as an R (low local office) being a spammer and Mike being an anarchist that constantly links anything anti political and edgy - most of the edgy stuff linking to TheBlaze and similar)
Jeremy actually committed to 'slow down' to ONLY five political links a day. His peak was in the thirties. All with abstracts and at least a paragraph of his own feelings.
Re: People misusing the term Vanilla to describe a flying, unleash (sometimes trample) critter.
Or the reverse; is the conservative thing to do is to post a statistic and not the preceding paragraph that adds context?
http://www.pewinternet.org/Reports/2012/Social-networking-and-politics/Main-findings/Social-networking-sites-and-politics.aspx
Who gets dropped?
The 18% of SNS users who had dumped or shunned someone because of their political disagreements were asked a follow-up question about the people who were dropped. The majority were people who did not have deep connections to the user who dropped them:
67% of those who blocked, unfriended, or hid someone on a social networking site did it to a distant friend or acquaintance
31% of those who blocked, unfriended, or hid someone on a social networking site did it to someone they had never met in person
31% of those who blocked, unfriended, or hid someone on a social networking site did it to a close personal friend
21% of those who blocked, unfriended, or hid someone on a social networking site did it to a coworker
18% of those who blocked, unfriended, or hid someone on a social networking site did it to a member of their family
The cohort is so small that it is not possible to do a statistically reliable analysis of trends. But as a rule, there were no ideological differences among those who had dropped someone from their SNS world because of politics.
I did not post that picture to say something about you. I posted the picture to show blatch that the internet is not nice to both sides. He sees vilification against him on these forums, but he might miss all the times i feel the same way.
Re: People misusing the term Vanilla to describe a flying, unleash (sometimes trample) critter.
Well, for example, there is countless amounts of anti-christian bigotry that I see every single time that the religion is discussed. Hateful, pointless slander, and it is often not seen as bigotry or hate.
Was that women and gaming thread about sarkseesan, out of curiosity?
G MGC
WB Teysa Tokens
BR Wortsnort
UG 23.5-No Edric
URG Noncombo Animar
GUB Damia Stax
WBR Alesha Hatebear Recursion
WBR Daddy Tariel
UBR [Je]love-a Your Deck
GWU Almost Critterless Enchantress
WUB Sydri+Artifacts=WUB
WURG Glint-Eye Combo
It shows a lack of judgment to add a bigot to FB. If you add just anyone to your FB that's not good. Granted, there are people who become that way due to some catastrophic circumstance or falling in with the wrong crowd, in which it might be justified.
I remember this one guy that I went to grad school with, real cool guy, had some bad things happen to him in the past women-wise, and I was the only one who believed his story because a friend of my fiance had the same thing happen to him. He discovered the MRA subreddit while on a severe bout of unemployment. He started messaging me every day about how rape victims were lying about it. I have a full-time job, I don't have time to read several blogs a day and argue about it. It got to the point of where he messaged me and said he was afraid of women. Then I got fed up and trolled him mercilessly. He deleted me from his FB and blocked me. I feel bad about it, though. I may have been his only real source of support, because I helped him through two severe crises. If I ever encounter him again I plan on apologizing and making amends, but I doubt he'll accept them.
Tl;dr is that deleting and trolling may not be the best answer, especially if it's a good friend. Try to be patient. I lost a friend and gained a powerful enemy because I took the head-on approach.
And never add someone to FB you just met or are casual acquaintances. There are some weirdos out there.
I prefer not to beat my head against the wall each time I hang out with friends or open my FB page. I don't have time for that. Investing time and energy with friends is quite frankly exhausting when you work more than 40 hours a week.
Well, no. I tend to think it's flaming.
The card is just as red, though.
Seriously, people, who starts throwing around these accusations and thinks, "Surely this will be a civil and productive conversation from which everybody will walk away a little bit happier and wiser"? Don't do it.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
Your kidding right.
Are you forgetting that the Magic demographic leans incredibly hard on the white and male spectrum....
I know the nitpicking nature of the denizens of this subsection has driven more casual posters away, quite often. Let's face it:
This is one of the LEAST welcoming parts of the forum.
I'd say the Gutter accepted more people with open arms than we do, in general. I know I expect to have everything I say here torn apart, even by those I would conciser "friends" (in fact, that's WHY I'd consider them friends). That kind of abrasive environment isn't something many people enjoy, and our culture has caused many a poster to stay far away from this subsection.
I--of course--include myself in that critic since it's obvious I've been one* of the more caustic members. But, I also don't think I'm an atypical example of a poster on this debate forum.
You did that to me on more than a few occasions, didn't you? No such thing as a "closed door" on the internet.
*And likely still am... though, I'm trying to be better.
I presumed as much, I was asking for examples specifically to see what you consider anti-Christian bigotry as I don't see many examples of it and the rare occasions of it are dealt with by the mods. I fear you take questioning Christian beliefs to be the same as bigotry (a relatively common sentiment I've noticed, and a very worrying one), which is why I asked for more clarification.
I think so, but I couldn't say for sure. It was 8 months to a year ago.
It's not like every bigot in the world identifies themselves. It often takes circumstances for someone's ugliness to appear. The Phil Robertson hoopla is a good example, it showed a lot of people for the bigots they are.
Examples of people I deleted from Facebook due to gross socio-political ignorance and/or discrimination: someone I went to school with for 13 years and kept in touch with via FB (anti-Semitism, homophobia and faux religious persecution), a coworker of two years (blatant sexism), and my cousin I grew up with (homophobic remarks). I don't just add anyone nor do I delete anyone without great reason.
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
I hope not. Chance to demonstrate how she's bull**** and I missed it? I'd be sad.
I mean, you'll get condescension, but that just comes with the territory around here. In terms of outright caustic behavior, I think the mods do a good job filtering it out.
I might just have a thicker skin for it though. If you can't handle people vehemently disagreeing with your beliefs, this is not a good place for you. Then again, that's why I come here, so go figure.
You do realize that white males under 30 still lean left in the US, and I'd imagine even more skewed in the EU, right?
It's less dramatic than other groups but it's still a left lean - something like 60% of college age males are D, 30% R and 10% I as of a few years ago with Obama and TEA/Libertarian probably pulling more of those R's away.
A few specific colleges are conservative on average for the men (only a handful for the women however) but that's a fraction of the college age men. [And Magic players by far attend college - so non-college world isn't too relevant to the "common demographic"]
Re: People misusing the term Vanilla to describe a flying, unleash (sometimes trample) critter.