I've yet to find an instance of rape as an insult that was funny, but rape can and is joked about to great effect. Anything can be joked about, and a good comedian can make the most horrible things funny.
I've yet to find an instance of rape as an insult that was funny, but rape can and is joked about to great effect. Anything can be joked about, and a good comedian can make the most horrible things funny.
I seem to even recall a long list of jokes based around dead babies that got quite a jolly response out of myself and my friends back when we were in high school...
One could say that dead babies are no laughing matter but when properly setup the shock value of such jokes can be quite hilarious.
Has it occurred to you that ALL such insults, gendered or otherwise, are juvenile, and better done without? There is a reason that such talk at a Magic event gets you an insta-Game Loss. (See IPG section on "Unsporting Conduct").
Some people enjoy using insults. My friends and I insult each other all of the time in a sarcastic manner. For instance one of my friends refers to me as Fat Ass. We rip on him for being a pansy. We also have a math major friend that we constantly make fun of for being horrible at basic math...
Some people have no issue with insults. Why should those people modify their behavior just to please other people that cant handle it?
I've yet to find an instance of rape as an insult that was funny, but rape can and is joked about to great effect. Anything can be joked about, and a good comedian can make the most horrible things funny.
Louis C.K. has a pretty hilarious bit about how it'd be better to go back in time and rape Hitler rather than kill him, but the joke is not at the expense of rape but of rapists, which is why it works. Compare to Daniel Tosh's "joke" about how wouldn't it be funny if that woman heckler got gang-raped? Not funny.
Some people enjoy using insults. My friends and I insult each other all of the time in a sarcastic manner. For instance one of my friends refers to me as Fat Ass. We rip on him for being a pansy. We also have a math major friend that we constantly make fun of for being horrible at basic math...
Some people have no issue with insults. Why should those people modify their behavior just to please other people that cant handle it?
Key word: "friend." You know each other and have set boundaries. Non-friends don't have that benefit, and there's no easy way to tell which people "have no issue with insults." So in the interest of good sportsmanship, most competitions make it against the rules.
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Do I Contradict Myself? Very Well Then I Contradict Myself.
I don't post links because I like the colour they make the text, I post them because I'm expecting people to read them.
1) Source your argument.
Google.
I'm not gonna source every claim okay. Just like you haven't. It's widely accepted among the scientific community that male and female brains function differently. Certain types of memory is one of the areas females have an advantage in.
2) The linked study uses a consistent set of definitions. Also, males tended to be called "*****" because they weren't seeming manly enough, which is mysogynistic. Women got called "****s" and "whores".
3)
No, it didn't
"“Do you feel that sexism is prominent in the gaming community?”
"When asked if they had ever been the subject of “sex-based taunting, harassment, or threats while playing video games online,”
Not defined again feelings. The survey is completely based off feelings and personal memory. Not concrete facts.
As far as making a character and seeing how they're treated, the study points out that female characters tend to be asked for nude pics in exchange for help. So if "tits or gtfo" counts as better treatment, sure...
Interesting i had like 60 days played on my alt that had a female name and this never once happened.
Also, you're misusing "Tits or GTFO". Tits or GTFO is a supposed to be a response female entering a "male space" and then using the fact she is a female to become the center of attention or to rearrange the culture to her sensibilities. If a female goes into a male doesn't try to become the center of attention or rearrange things to her sensibilities no one really cares.
For those of us that are trying to take feminism seriously, tell us how. How are we supposed to take it seriously?
By not cherry-picking feminist viewpoints that most other feminists would find fault with? But if those links convince you that feminists can't be taken seriously, then these responses to a comment that the revealed games for XBox1 feature no female protagonists will clearly convince you that men can't be taken seriously. http://femfreq.tumblr.com/post/52673540142/twitter-vs-female-protagonists-in-video-games
You still think it's cherry picking after about 50+ pages of articles linked that all view things the same way and 0 articles linked that don't? This is really how the vast majority of modern Feminists think, it's not cherry picking.
I'm pretty convinced that Anita Sarkeesian can't be taken seriously. She verbal attack a group as being sexist... then complained about the "Damsel in distress" trope... then she acted as a damsel in distress when people mocked her.
Yes. Rape isn't funny.
Killing babies isn't funny. But dead baby jokes can be.
What is the difference between a pile of dead babies and sand?
"I have no idea what it's like not to be a straight white male, and the experiences of others are irrelevant." -Conservative Motto
Calling someone a Commie is flaming and must be stopped, but turning the word Conservative into a loaded pejorative and using it over and over again is perfectly acceptable.
[You know each other and have set boundaries. Non-friends don't have that benefit, and there's no easy way to tell which people "have no issue with insults." So in the interest of good sportsmanship, most competitions make it against the rules.
Sure for a competition.... I thought we were talking about generic online gaming. If someone wants to rant about bigoted views or call other people insulting names that is that person's prerogative. It is also the other player's decision on whther or not to continue playing with that person
Louis C.K. has a pretty hilarious bit about how it'd be better to go back in time and rape Hitler rather than kill him, but the joke is not at the expense of rape but of rapists, which is why it works. Compare to Daniel Tosh's "joke" about how wouldn't it be funny if that woman heckler got gang-raped? Not funny.
Not going to argue what makes a joke funny, I just don't like the absolute statement so often made that "rape isn't funny" or that "you can't joke about rape."
Also, you're misusing "Tits or GTFO". Tits or GTFO is a supposed to be a response female entering a "male space" and then using the fact she is a female to become the center of attention or to rearrange the culture to her sensibilities. If a female goes into a male doesn't try to become the center of attention or rearrange things to her sensibilities no one really cares.
Ok, I'm trying to figure out what a "male space" is without coming up with something sexist and failing.
Ok, I'm trying to figure out what a "male space" is without coming up with something sexist and failing.
Any space that is currently mostly male. Nothing prejudicial or discrimination about that. I'm cool with women joining the "boys club" so long as they don't feel the need to start bossing people around or just wanna join to be the center of attention.
But even if it was discrimination... how do you feel about male/female bathrooms and locker rooms being separate? Are you against all Sexism or just some?
"I have no idea what it's like not to be a straight white male, and the experiences of others are irrelevant." -Conservative Motto
Calling someone a Commie is flaming and must be stopped, but turning the word Conservative into a loaded pejorative and using it over and over again is perfectly acceptable.
There are dominance metaphors that aren't about sexual violation. Perhaps one of those would have been more appropriate.
Like what? Battery? Homicide? Slavery? In what way would one of these be "more appropriate"? Why should sexual violation be singled out as a taboo? I'm with LadyLuck on this one. Either it's appropriate to joke about any form of violence because there's a strong disconnect between the real act and metaphorical speech about the act, or there is no such disconnect and it's inappropriate to joke about any form of violence. You can't say that there's a disconnect for some forms of violence but not for others.
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Vive, vale. Siquid novisti rectius istis,
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
Some people have no issue with insults. Why should those people modify their behavior just to please other people that cant handle it?
"I like walking around the house naked, and my wife is fine with it. Why should I wear trousers if I'm going to the shops?"
@Commons: Dat sample size of one. Bro, do you even study biology or sociology?
Also your link isn't working.
Last, separate changing rooms is different from separate changing rooms but one room is on fire.
@Blinking Spirit: Seriously, why doesn't anyone else use "Ragequit. Come on, make us both happy." or "Feel free to join in anytime."
@Commons: Dat sample size of one. Bro, do you even study biology or sociology?
Also your link isn't working.
Last, separate changing rooms is different from separate changing rooms but one room is on fire.
See i would say the sample size is actually about 1,000+ or so random people online that i meet and never said anything while playing the toon but whatever.
Your evidence is still double hearsay so... even if you don't accept my anecdote well... you're evidence isn't evidence so... there is that.
"I have no idea what it's like not to be a straight white male, and the experiences of others are irrelevant." -Conservative Motto
Calling someone a Commie is flaming and must be stopped, but turning the word Conservative into a loaded pejorative and using it over and over again is perfectly acceptable.
For those of us that are trying to take feminism seriously, tell us how. How are we supposed to take it seriously?
By not cherry-picking feminist viewpoints that most other feminists would find fault with?
OK, when I found out about Samsung's sexist campaign, I did some research and those are the feminist voices I found. I didn't find any other feminist group or individual commenting on it, and, incidentally, those views echo the kinds of comments that several feminists on MTGS have made. I'm not going to call anyone out but you can probably guess a few.
If you know of any other feminist group or individual that commented on this issue, let me know. Based on everything I've seen thusfar, feminists are either of the stripe I sourced earlier (downplaying sexism against men or even spinning it to make it sound misogynistic when it's not) or they are just plain ignoring it.
But you tell me now. Who do you want me to ask? Give me one or more mainstream authorities that represent the "real" feminism. Otherwise, how am I supposed to know who represents the "real" feminism?
No, that does not convince me to take men less seriously. Not at all.
Feminists belong to a group they have chosen, men (and for that matter, women) almost universally belong to genders that they did not select. That's the difference. So comments made by men do not reflect upon all men, but comments made by feminists will tend to reflect upon feminism as a whole.
Does that mean that, e.g., Westboro Baptist represents Christianity? No, not really, because there is a chorus of Christian voices to drown them out. So where is the chorus of mainstream feminist voices? That's the question. From where I stand, feminism seems quite willing to let people like Sarkeesian and sites like Jezebel represent them.
You do understand the difference between "get better" "you suck" and "Let it happen. It'll be over soon" right?
Do you realize that that sort of thing gets said all the time between people jokingly as was done in the video? I mean, if this is a rape joke, this guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUGNVpzB2t0 must be having rape orgies every other day.
It's not like "you suck" was misinterpreted as a rape comment. It was the one that has been explicitly associated with rape events in the past.
So saying "you suck" to somebody in a video game is a rape joke? On what planet is this the case? It appears like "you're a stupid head" will be the only permissible taunt in the coming years.
I'm not saying the outrage is accurate but it certainly has more merit than a lot of people here are giving it credit for. The theme of "stop struggling and it'll be over more quickly" certainly carries more sexual, rape, baggage than "I'm destroying you" or "get better"
You're just looking for sexual content where there is none. "It will be over quickly" is far more clever than "I'm destroying you". I mean, if saying "It will be over quickly" when you're clearly dominating somebody in a game is a rape joke, then just about everything is a rape joke.
If you sexualize everything, obviously you are going to see rape jokes everywhere because everything is a rape joke to you.
And I don't see how "I'm destroying you" could not be interpreted as a rape joke based on what apparently qualifies.
And again, MRAs trolling abuse hotlines...doesn't help.
Can I get some source for that beef?
Look up A Voice for Men's mention of "Reno". Yep. He called a domestic violence hotline, said his wife beat him, and basically wouldn't accept any accommodations they offered, up to and including a hotel room for the night. (Of course, if he did accept it, they'd know the wife and son didn't exist.)
You know why women don't reveal that they're women? Why you don't put Call of Duty on your interests in a personal ad? Because of the sexual harassment.
It's less "you suck" and more "up your ass!" or "ill help u if u give me some nekkid pix".
In Magic, my trash talk consists solely of scolding players for not knowing what their card does. Or thinking pile shuffling is somehow random. (Both of these are just IRL, since computer games can enforce the rules.)
Why should rape be a sacred cow and other forms of violence get a green light again? This is the part where I point out that this is just a new form of chivalry. What if the person your playing just had a relative murdered why not freak out when people say "I killed you". A phrase I hear people use all the time while playing MTG.
Oddly, Roseanne agrees with you and doesn't agree with you. To her, rape jokes are useful as far as comedy challenges the social structure.
[QUOTE=Izuki;/comments/12149977]I don't post links because I like the colour they make the text, I post them because I'm expecting people to read them.
1) Source your argument.
Google.
I'm not gonna source every claim okay. Just like you haven't. It's widely accepted among the scientific community that male and female brains function differently. Certain types of memory is one of the areas females have an advantage in.
While the underlying mechanisms that explain memory differences between men and women are largely unknown, the fact that there are differences remains an intriguing and insightful area of scientific study. New evidence, reported last week in the journal Current Directions in Psychological Science, indicates that there exist significant differences between men and women pertaining to a unique type of long-term memory known as episodic memory. (my emphasis)
Again, we have something with no known mechanisms, just observational studies, which are totally the weakest form of biological evidence available.
Also, you're misusing "Tits or GTFO". Tits or GTFO is a supposed to be a response female entering a "male space" and then using the fact she is a female to become the center of attention or to rearrange the culture to her sensibilities. If a female goes into a male doesn't try to become the center of attention or rearrange things to her sensibilities no one really cares.
Example:
FemAnon here
No, one cares. Tits or GTFO.
And how often does that even happen?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Commons
Also, you're misusing "Tits or GTFO". Tits or GTFO is a supposed to be a response female entering a "male space" and then using the fact she is a female to become the center of attention or to rearrange the culture to her sensibilities. If a female goes into a male doesn't try to become the center of attention or rearrange things to her sensibilities no one really cares.
Example:
FemAnon here
No, one cares. Tits or GTFO.
And how often does that even happen?
Basically every time Rebecca Watson enters a room from what I have observed.
I really do think it's an amazing piece of cognitive dissonance that you can treat her as anything other then a joke and then criticize Warren Farrell followers.
@Fluffy: Valros put it best - jokes between friends that are very obviously not intended to cause hurt feelings are very different then those between strangers in which one is trying to insult the other. Intentionally offending someone you've never met is just juvenile, and serves only to inform other people that they should avoid you like the plague (due to your aforementioned immaturity)
Ladyluck-It is quite possible for another culture somewhere to work differently in regards to jokes among strangers and perhaps different for groups, sub-cultures, whatever within our culture to play by a different set of rules.
And it is quite possible for another culture to believe in cannibalism. Saying "it works that way in another culture!" doesn't make it a good idea nor a productive behavior.
@Fluffy: Valros put it best - jokes between friends that are very obviously not intended to cause hurt feelings are very different then those between strangers in which one is trying to insult the other. Intentionally offending someone you've never met is just juvenile, and serves only to inform other people that they should avoid you like the plague (due to your aforementioned immaturity)
What's your point?
If a person or group of people is doing something that someone else does not like they are not required to continue interacting with that person.
For instance, if a girl gets made fun of on Starcraft she can choose to not play Starcraft... or she can choose to just mute anyone that says anything insulting. That's one of the great things about free speech... If I find it to be more important to insult you than to be able to play with you then that is my choice, likewise if you wish to not play with me because of my behavior then that is also your choice.
If there are not enough people that are not insulting to play with then too bad. Apparently you picked a community/group/game that requires a thicker skin.
It doesnt matter what the better or nicer behavior is what matters is that when it comes to insults people just have to suck it up and deal with it.
And it is quite possible for another culture to believe in cannibalism. Saying "it works that way in another culture!" doesn't make it a good idea nor a productive behavior.
What's so wrong with cannibalism? Eating dead flesh is eating dead flesh. If that's what someone wishes to do then that is their deal.
@Izuki
I personally believe that people should be able to dress or not dress however they choose in public. Is a child seeing a ***** really any worse than seeing a "God hates ****" poster? Or hearing about people getting their legs blown off by a bomb(and seeing fairly graphic images of the wounds)? One caviate to that though is private businesses would be allowed to ban you from their establishment so if Chuckee Cheese doesnt want a bunch of naked dudes inside that is perfectly acceptable.
The result would probably be an increase in privately owned parks catered to those that dont want to have their kids playing near naked guys but that's fine with me.
If a person or group of people is doing something that someone else does not like they are not required to continue interacting with that person.
For instance, if a girl gets made fun of on Starcraft she can choose to not play Starcraft... or she can choose to just mute anyone that says anything insulting. That's one of the great things about free speech... If I find it to be more important to insult you than to be able to play with you then that is my choice, likewise if you wish to not play with me because of my behavior then that is also your choice.
If there are not enough people that are not insulting to play with then too bad. Apparently you picked a community/group/game that requires a thicker skin.
It doesnt matter what the better or nicer behavior is what matters is that when it comes to insults people just have to suck it up and deal with it.
As a matter of fact, yes, I do make liberal use of block/mute/filter functions wherever available. But as League of Legends in-game message put it - "A chat filter is not a reason to excessively curse". These functions are not intended to give individuals a license to be excessively vulgar.
And while yes, you can just tell people to "grow a thicker skin"...its kind of missing the point. You cannot demand that others not react to your words/actions, particularly when you were trying to elicit a reaction in the first place. But that aside, yes, I suppose I can just ignore every insult a stranger flings my way, and then avoid communities in which said behavior runs rampant.
But the natural result of this is that the parties that are being repeatedly insulted and berated are significantly less represented in the community that's doing the insulting. Just like... *drum roll* women in video games! While women do play plenty of games, they participate much less in the communities associated with the games due to how they are treated. This is a direct result of women being more frequently subjected to being insulted, and women reacting in exactly the rational fashion you suggested. It is almost a textbook example of sexism - one sex is being treated significantly better/worse then the other.
Now, the video game industry can turn a blind eye to this, but it's not going to work forever. The fact of the matter is, there are just as many women as men, so women deserve to be catered to just as much, because we have the ability to contribute just as much to the bottom line. While progress is slow in this regard, you can already see examples of it - the fact that many RPGs let you select your character's gender is an improvement, for instance.
Honestly, I just wish more guys in the gaming community would recognize that gaming is not exclusive to men, and cease all of the immature behaviors that follow from denying it.
What's so wrong with cannibalism? Eating dead flesh is eating dead flesh. If that's what someone wishes to do then that is their deal.
Ok, bad example. How about Human sacrifice rituals? Infanticide? Slavery?
Lady Luck-While I have no interest in defending any of the language being used by these gamers this is an example of women (some) demanding a group (largely consisting of males) change their behavior to accommodate them. While I'm not especially concerned with this example of this I wonder where one would draw the line. Can there be a Men's space?
Tiax-I certainly don't want that to be the definition of a men's space I guess I should have clarified that.
I guess now that I have thought about it there are some men's spaces but they mostly seem to be occupied by older men. Bowling teams, Freemasonry, etc. Boy Scouts is about as close to a younger men's space and even that admits girls, but the girl scouts doesn't admit boys. I would like to see a men's space available to all younger men and not have restrictions other then the that it is a men's space (so unlike BS would include atheists etc.).
My research has left me with an unpleasant conclusion there is nothing concerning men or masculinity that feminists have not taken a giant crap on and it has permiated every element of our culture and even our understanding of other cultures. Machismo was origionally a code of conduct focused on the characteristics of honour, responsibility, perseverance and courage, related to both individual and group interaction. Latin American men understand masculinity to involve considerable childcare responsibilities, politeness, respect for women’s autonomy, and non-violent attitudes and behaviors. Yet much like the word harem in the minds of islamophobic europeans feminists turned it into something warped and disfigured and now use it to describe the worst stereotypes they perpetuate about men aka Macho.
I wonder if a lot of this mysoginy feminists fight is of their own creation, on multiple levels.
There are dominance metaphors that aren't about sexual violation. Perhaps one of those would have been more appropriate.
Perhaps so, but I'd raise two issues:
1) Is it sexist to use a dominance metaphor coming from the realm of sexual violation, or just exceedingly uncouth? I say it's the latter. Male rape is still rape, and heterosexual men use the same sexually-charged dominance metaphors in banter with each other, up to and including the outright use of the word "rape" to describe a game dominance situation. It's not like gamer culture has targeted this particular behavior at women. (Although they do target other bad behaviors specifically at women, and those behaviors are in fact sexist.) But this particular one has got nothing to do with women, gender, or even sex. It's a "pure" metaphor, to the greatest extent that such a thing is possible.
2) In a way, this whole business about it "being more appropriate" is kind of the point I'm making. The expectation that you suddenly have to step outside of a culturally-normal (if not exactly couth) behavior pattern because (gasp) there's a girl here now is an expectation of special treatment for women, rather than equal treatment for women.
I get that from a broad moral angle, with the gender-tinted glasses removed, gamer culture exhibits a lot of behavior that is not morally praiseworthy. However, for some reason which I guess I shouldn't call a reason since it isn't really logical, I'd view it as a loss if I couldn't engage in some uncouth banter whilst gaming amongst friends. The idea that when a girl is in the room, everything has to be scrubbed and polished to account for her presence is, as far as I can tell, inimical to both gender equality and, for lack of a better word, "fun."
You ask "Can there be a Men's space?"... well, I suppose the idea of "Men's space" wouldn't be a big idea if there was an equally regarded concept of "Women's space". But i have to wonder and ask, what is the purpose of a "Men's space"? or a "Women's space", for that matter. Why is it there needs to be some activity/location/club that is exclusive to one gender? What if a woman just happens to like Bowling, for instance? (to go with your example)
Even if we accept that "(Wo)men's space" serves some purpose, the fact of the matter is the two types of spaces have historically not been equally regarded. The term "women's work" is used as an insult. The idea of "(Wo)men's space" is very much like the idea of segregation. You seem to think that even if men and women are equal, there should still be areas exclusive to each gender. But like with segregation, "separate but equal" never actually happens in practice.
So for that reason, the answer is no...there really can't be "Men's space", because realistically there can never be a "Women's space" that is equal to it. The concept of a "Men's space" is just as sexist as "White's only" is racist.
EDIT: @Crashing's post - part of the problem is that these cultures are male dominated BECAUSE they are so overtly sexist. So yes, a woman coming into the room is ALWAYS going to demand a change, because the whole culture she is entering into is predicated partially on her not being there. This isn't a significant problem in plenty of other parts of our society, and it's not because there's no crude language. Dirty jokes aren't unique to video gaming, not by a longshot. What is special about gaming is a lot of the nastiness that comes with anonymity. It turns out that when there are no consequences to acting like a hateful sexist douchebag, a lot of men do just that. Hence why feminists act like there's still a problem - the law may say we're equal, but it seems that there's a lot of men that still secretly hate or otherwise disdain women.
I seem to even recall a long list of jokes based around dead babies that got quite a jolly response out of myself and my friends back when we were in high school...
One could say that dead babies are no laughing matter but when properly setup the shock value of such jokes can be quite hilarious.
Some people enjoy using insults. My friends and I insult each other all of the time in a sarcastic manner. For instance one of my friends refers to me as Fat Ass. We rip on him for being a pansy. We also have a math major friend that we constantly make fun of for being horrible at basic math...
Some people have no issue with insults. Why should those people modify their behavior just to please other people that cant handle it?
Louis C.K. has a pretty hilarious bit about how it'd be better to go back in time and rape Hitler rather than kill him, but the joke is not at the expense of rape but of rapists, which is why it works. Compare to Daniel Tosh's "joke" about how wouldn't it be funny if that woman heckler got gang-raped? Not funny.
Key word: "friend." You know each other and have set boundaries. Non-friends don't have that benefit, and there's no easy way to tell which people "have no issue with insults." So in the interest of good sportsmanship, most competitions make it against the rules.
Very Well Then I Contradict Myself.
Google.
I'm not gonna source every claim okay. Just like you haven't. It's widely accepted among the scientific community that male and female brains function differently. Certain types of memory is one of the areas females have an advantage in.
Edit: here
No, it didn't
"“Do you feel that sexism is prominent in the gaming community?”
"When asked if they had ever been the subject of “sex-based taunting, harassment, or threats while playing video games online,”
Not defined again feelings. The survey is completely based off feelings and personal memory. Not concrete facts.
Interesting i had like 60 days played on my alt that had a female name and this never once happened.
Also, you're misusing "Tits or GTFO". Tits or GTFO is a supposed to be a response female entering a "male space" and then using the fact she is a female to become the center of attention or to rearrange the culture to her sensibilities. If a female goes into a male doesn't try to become the center of attention or rearrange things to her sensibilities no one really cares.
Example:
FemAnon here
No, one cares. Tits or GTFO.
You still think it's cherry picking after about 50+ pages of articles linked that all view things the same way and 0 articles linked that don't? This is really how the vast majority of modern Feminists think, it's not cherry picking.
I'm pretty convinced that Anita Sarkeesian can't be taken seriously. She verbal attack a group as being sexist... then complained about the "Damsel in distress" trope... then she acted as a damsel in distress when people mocked her.
Killing babies isn't funny. But dead baby jokes can be.
What is the difference between a pile of dead babies and sand?
Flame infraction. - Blinking Spirit
Calling someone a Commie is flaming and must be stopped, but turning the word Conservative into a loaded pejorative and using it over and over again is perfectly acceptable.
Sure for a competition.... I thought we were talking about generic online gaming. If someone wants to rant about bigoted views or call other people insulting names that is that person's prerogative. It is also the other player's decision on whther or not to continue playing with that person
Any space that is currently mostly male. Nothing prejudicial or discrimination about that. I'm cool with women joining the "boys club" so long as they don't feel the need to start bossing people around or just wanna join to be the center of attention.
But even if it was discrimination... how do you feel about male/female bathrooms and locker rooms being separate? Are you against all Sexism or just some?
Flame infraction. - Blinking Spirit
Calling someone a Commie is flaming and must be stopped, but turning the word Conservative into a loaded pejorative and using it over and over again is perfectly acceptable.
Like what? Battery? Homicide? Slavery? In what way would one of these be "more appropriate"? Why should sexual violation be singled out as a taboo? I'm with LadyLuck on this one. Either it's appropriate to joke about any form of violence because there's a strong disconnect between the real act and metaphorical speech about the act, or there is no such disconnect and it's inappropriate to joke about any form of violence. You can't say that there's a disconnect for some forms of violence but not for others.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
@Commons: Dat sample size of one. Bro, do you even study biology or sociology?
Also your link isn't working.
Last, separate changing rooms is different from separate changing rooms but one room is on fire.
@Blinking Spirit: Seriously, why doesn't anyone else use "Ragequit. Come on, make us both happy." or "Feel free to join in anytime."
Art is life itself.
See i would say the sample size is actually about 1,000+ or so random people online that i meet and never said anything while playing the toon but whatever.
Your evidence is still double hearsay so... even if you don't accept my anecdote well... you're evidence isn't evidence so... there is that.
Flame infraction. - Blinking Spirit
Calling someone a Commie is flaming and must be stopped, but turning the word Conservative into a loaded pejorative and using it over and over again is perfectly acceptable.
OK, when I found out about Samsung's sexist campaign, I did some research and those are the feminist voices I found. I didn't find any other feminist group or individual commenting on it, and, incidentally, those views echo the kinds of comments that several feminists on MTGS have made. I'm not going to call anyone out but you can probably guess a few.
If you know of any other feminist group or individual that commented on this issue, let me know. Based on everything I've seen thusfar, feminists are either of the stripe I sourced earlier (downplaying sexism against men or even spinning it to make it sound misogynistic when it's not) or they are just plain ignoring it.
But you tell me now. Who do you want me to ask? Give me one or more mainstream authorities that represent the "real" feminism. Otherwise, how am I supposed to know who represents the "real" feminism?
No, that does not convince me to take men less seriously. Not at all.
Feminists belong to a group they have chosen, men (and for that matter, women) almost universally belong to genders that they did not select. That's the difference. So comments made by men do not reflect upon all men, but comments made by feminists will tend to reflect upon feminism as a whole.
Does that mean that, e.g., Westboro Baptist represents Christianity? No, not really, because there is a chorus of Christian voices to drown them out. So where is the chorus of mainstream feminist voices? That's the question. From where I stand, feminism seems quite willing to let people like Sarkeesian and sites like Jezebel represent them.
Do you realize that that sort of thing gets said all the time between people jokingly as was done in the video? I mean, if this is a rape joke, this guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUGNVpzB2t0 must be having rape orgies every other day.
So saying "you suck" to somebody in a video game is a rape joke? On what planet is this the case? It appears like "you're a stupid head" will be the only permissible taunt in the coming years.
You're just looking for sexual content where there is none. "It will be over quickly" is far more clever than "I'm destroying you". I mean, if saying "It will be over quickly" when you're clearly dominating somebody in a game is a rape joke, then just about everything is a rape joke.
If you sexualize everything, obviously you are going to see rape jokes everywhere because everything is a rape joke to you.
And I don't see how "I'm destroying you" could not be interpreted as a rape joke based on what apparently qualifies.
and here's an open minded (but still flawed) feminist take on misandry...
http://hetpat.wordpress.com/2013/04/04/on-the-misandry-isnt-a-thing-thing/
Look up A Voice for Men's mention of "Reno". Yep. He called a domestic violence hotline, said his wife beat him, and basically wouldn't accept any accommodations they offered, up to and including a hotel room for the night. (Of course, if he did accept it, they'd know the wife and son didn't exist.)
"Reno", by the way, is actually Ian Williams.
You know why women don't reveal that they're women? Why you don't put Call of Duty on your interests in a personal ad? Because of the sexual harassment.
It's less "you suck" and more "up your ass!" or "ill help u if u give me some nekkid pix".
In Magic, my trash talk consists solely of scolding players for not knowing what their card does. Or thinking pile shuffling is somehow random. (Both of these are just IRL, since computer games can enforce the rules.)
Oddly, Roseanne agrees with you and doesn't agree with you. To her, rape jokes are useful as far as comedy challenges the social structure.
Google.
I'm not gonna source every claim okay. Just like you haven't. It's widely accepted among the scientific community that male and female brains function differently. Certain types of memory is one of the areas females have an advantage in.
Edit: here[/QUTOE]
Also
Again, we have something with no known mechanisms, just observational studies, which are totally the weakest form of biological evidence available.
And how often does that even happen?
On phasing:
Basically every time Rebecca Watson enters a room from what I have observed.
I really do think it's an amazing piece of cognitive dissonance that you can treat her as anything other then a joke and then criticize Warren Farrell followers.
What's your point?
If a person or group of people is doing something that someone else does not like they are not required to continue interacting with that person.
For instance, if a girl gets made fun of on Starcraft she can choose to not play Starcraft... or she can choose to just mute anyone that says anything insulting. That's one of the great things about free speech... If I find it to be more important to insult you than to be able to play with you then that is my choice, likewise if you wish to not play with me because of my behavior then that is also your choice.
If there are not enough people that are not insulting to play with then too bad. Apparently you picked a community/group/game that requires a thicker skin.
It doesnt matter what the better or nicer behavior is what matters is that when it comes to insults people just have to suck it up and deal with it.
What's so wrong with cannibalism? Eating dead flesh is eating dead flesh. If that's what someone wishes to do then that is their deal.
@Izuki
I personally believe that people should be able to dress or not dress however they choose in public. Is a child seeing a ***** really any worse than seeing a "God hates ****" poster? Or hearing about people getting their legs blown off by a bomb(and seeing fairly graphic images of the wounds)? One caviate to that though is private businesses would be allowed to ban you from their establishment so if Chuckee Cheese doesnt want a bunch of naked dudes inside that is perfectly acceptable.
The result would probably be an increase in privately owned parks catered to those that dont want to have their kids playing near naked guys but that's fine with me.
As a matter of fact, yes, I do make liberal use of block/mute/filter functions wherever available. But as League of Legends in-game message put it - "A chat filter is not a reason to excessively curse". These functions are not intended to give individuals a license to be excessively vulgar.
And while yes, you can just tell people to "grow a thicker skin"...its kind of missing the point. You cannot demand that others not react to your words/actions, particularly when you were trying to elicit a reaction in the first place. But that aside, yes, I suppose I can just ignore every insult a stranger flings my way, and then avoid communities in which said behavior runs rampant.
But the natural result of this is that the parties that are being repeatedly insulted and berated are significantly less represented in the community that's doing the insulting. Just like... *drum roll* women in video games! While women do play plenty of games, they participate much less in the communities associated with the games due to how they are treated. This is a direct result of women being more frequently subjected to being insulted, and women reacting in exactly the rational fashion you suggested. It is almost a textbook example of sexism - one sex is being treated significantly better/worse then the other.
Now, the video game industry can turn a blind eye to this, but it's not going to work forever. The fact of the matter is, there are just as many women as men, so women deserve to be catered to just as much, because we have the ability to contribute just as much to the bottom line. While progress is slow in this regard, you can already see examples of it - the fact that many RPGs let you select your character's gender is an improvement, for instance.
Honestly, I just wish more guys in the gaming community would recognize that gaming is not exclusive to men, and cease all of the immature behaviors that follow from denying it.
Ok, bad example. How about Human sacrifice rituals? Infanticide? Slavery?
I guess now that I have thought about it there are some men's spaces but they mostly seem to be occupied by older men. Bowling teams, Freemasonry, etc. Boy Scouts is about as close to a younger men's space and even that admits girls, but the girl scouts doesn't admit boys. I would like to see a men's space available to all younger men and not have restrictions other then the that it is a men's space (so unlike BS would include atheists etc.).
My research has left me with an unpleasant conclusion there is nothing concerning men or masculinity that feminists have not taken a giant crap on and it has permiated every element of our culture and even our understanding of other cultures. Machismo was origionally a code of conduct focused on the characteristics of honour, responsibility, perseverance and courage, related to both individual and group interaction. Latin American men understand masculinity to involve considerable childcare responsibilities, politeness, respect for women’s autonomy, and non-violent attitudes and behaviors. Yet much like the word harem in the minds of islamophobic europeans feminists turned it into something warped and disfigured and now use it to describe the worst stereotypes they perpetuate about men aka Macho.
I wonder if a lot of this mysoginy feminists fight is of their own creation, on multiple levels.
Perhaps so, but I'd raise two issues:
1) Is it sexist to use a dominance metaphor coming from the realm of sexual violation, or just exceedingly uncouth? I say it's the latter. Male rape is still rape, and heterosexual men use the same sexually-charged dominance metaphors in banter with each other, up to and including the outright use of the word "rape" to describe a game dominance situation. It's not like gamer culture has targeted this particular behavior at women. (Although they do target other bad behaviors specifically at women, and those behaviors are in fact sexist.) But this particular one has got nothing to do with women, gender, or even sex. It's a "pure" metaphor, to the greatest extent that such a thing is possible.
2) In a way, this whole business about it "being more appropriate" is kind of the point I'm making. The expectation that you suddenly have to step outside of a culturally-normal (if not exactly couth) behavior pattern because (gasp) there's a girl here now is an expectation of special treatment for women, rather than equal treatment for women.
I get that from a broad moral angle, with the gender-tinted glasses removed, gamer culture exhibits a lot of behavior that is not morally praiseworthy. However, for some reason which I guess I shouldn't call a reason since it isn't really logical, I'd view it as a loss if I couldn't engage in some uncouth banter whilst gaming amongst friends. The idea that when a girl is in the room, everything has to be scrubbed and polished to account for her presence is, as far as I can tell, inimical to both gender equality and, for lack of a better word, "fun."
Which if thou dost not use for clearing away the clouds from thy mind
It will go and thou wilt go, never to return.
Even if we accept that "(Wo)men's space" serves some purpose, the fact of the matter is the two types of spaces have historically not been equally regarded. The term "women's work" is used as an insult. The idea of "(Wo)men's space" is very much like the idea of segregation. You seem to think that even if men and women are equal, there should still be areas exclusive to each gender. But like with segregation, "separate but equal" never actually happens in practice.
So for that reason, the answer is no...there really can't be "Men's space", because realistically there can never be a "Women's space" that is equal to it. The concept of a "Men's space" is just as sexist as "White's only" is racist.
EDIT: @Crashing's post - part of the problem is that these cultures are male dominated BECAUSE they are so overtly sexist. So yes, a woman coming into the room is ALWAYS going to demand a change, because the whole culture she is entering into is predicated partially on her not being there. This isn't a significant problem in plenty of other parts of our society, and it's not because there's no crude language. Dirty jokes aren't unique to video gaming, not by a longshot. What is special about gaming is a lot of the nastiness that comes with anonymity. It turns out that when there are no consequences to acting like a hateful sexist douchebag, a lot of men do just that. Hence why feminists act like there's still a problem - the law may say we're equal, but it seems that there's a lot of men that still secretly hate or otherwise disdain women.