I would never deny anyone the right to make educational choices for their children. Even if I don’t like the choices they make, they still have the right to make them.
And what about the child? Parents don't own their children. Why is it their "right" to teach them garbage? Doesn't the child deserve a chance to have a quality eductation that isn't filled with blantantly false or misleading information (go check out what Ken Ham would have children taught in public school)?
Your point is moot since parents will instill in their children the education and values they choose to at home – not to mention home schooling is legal in all 50 states. Parents do not own their children but, unless overridden by a court, parents do have authority over their children until the age of 18 – that includes making choices in how they will be educated. As I mentioned in my post, as long as the school meets the academic standards established at the local/state/national level the parent has the right to educate them as they see fit and have their taxes returned to them in the form of school vouchers in order to do so.
I do not have the moral authority to infringe on another individual’s right to make choices for themselves and their children based on beliefs that I may or may not agree with.
I would never deny anyone the right to make educational choices for their children. Even if I don’t like the choices they make, they still have the right to make them.
And what about the child? Parents don't own their children. Why is it their "right" to teach them garbage? Doesn't the child deserve a chance to have a quality eductation that isn't filled with blantantly false or misleading information (go check out what Ken Ham would have children taught in public school)?
Your point is moot since parents will instill in their children the education and values they choose to at home – not to mention home schooling is legal in all 50 states. Parents do not own their children but, unless overridden by a court, parents do have authority over their children until the age of 18 – that includes making choices in how they will be educated. As I mentioned in my post, as long as the school meets the academic standards established at the local/state/national level the parent has the right to educate them as they see fit and have their taxes returned to them in the form of school vouchers in order to do so.
I do not have the moral authority to infringe on another individual’s right to make choices for themselves and their children based on beliefs that I may or may not agree with.
Why should their taxes be returned to them? what about people without children? Should they have their taxes returned to them as well? Why do they get to cop out?
If you say yes then we remove the very idea of public education. If for whatever reason the parents don't find public education suitable then they should be able to seek alternative types of education but under no circumstances should they be able to opt out of paying into our public education system.
I don't want any government money to go to anything based in religion of any kind.
That is the thing it isn't the governments money. It is that persons money.
The government is just giving that person their money back to educate their kids.
And I say this to protect the religious associations as well.
that is because most religious associations are non-profit which aren't taxable anyway.
I don't think parents who have their children go to private schools should be able to opt out of the tax for it either.
So they should have to pay for a system they don't use?
People without children don't get to opt out for example.
that is because most of the school tax is tied to property taxes. in fact it is the most expensive tax on my property tax.
A better thing to do is dramatically increase spending for public education and really fix these problems.
1) Make class size under 20 students per class
2) Give them free breakfast
3) Extend free lunch
4) Give schools the tools, buildings and teachers to give children the tools to get a good education. Actually on C-span 1 there is a program on right now about poverty in the united states and about half of the time spent here is about education reform and how it is key to stopping poverty
This does nothing to improve schools.
The fact is if the school can't perform then the school needs to be shut down and the kids moved elsewhere.
The biggest problem with schools are the inner city schools. they get the least of everything. hard to find teachers and school books.
When i was in school all the supplies were there. now i have to buy half the crap myself. so where is all the money going?
you are right we need massive education reform and it will help lower the poverty level. the problem is there are to many special interest groups out there to keep that from happening.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks to Epic Graphics the best around. Thanks to Nex3 for the avatar visit ye old sig and avatar forum
As long as the educational institution meets the criteria set forth by the local/state/federal government it is irrelevant where those tax dollars go so long as they go towards the education of their children. Given that many schools are complete and utter failures parents are essentially given a refund in the form of a coupon allowing them to take their business elsewhere – but they do not have the right NOT to educate their children.
what about people without children? Should they have their taxes returned to them as well? Why do they get to cop out?
If you say yes then we remove the very idea of public education. If for whatever reason the parents don't find public education suitable then they should be able to seek alternative types of education but under no circumstances should they be able to opt out of paying into our public education system.
We live in a society and we all have to pay for things via taxes we don’t want to. I don’t want to fund the war in Iraq, but I do. People who don’t drive have to pay for roads. Governments subsidize new arenas, residential and commercial developments, and parks that many citizens will never use. People who exist in a society are not exempt from paying for public things they don’t want or use. However, if you have the ability to shift money around and still achieve the desired outcome (the education of children in the case of school vouchers) than it is often good to do so.
As a side note, I sense a high level of rancor toward religion and religious educational institutions. As an atheist I understand that (I don’t agree with it, but I understand it). I tend to think anti-religious fervor should really take a back seat to the genuine practical issues facing many parents. I am originally from Michigan where a profoundly failed educational system can be observed in dozens of cities throughout the state. It’s really easy to talk about high-minded ideals and how you don’t want people’s children learning about creationism and that the earth is only 5000 years old when it isn't YOUR child trapped in a failing school. When you have a child trapped in a school that gives them no chance at being prepared for college, subjects them to a culture of drug addiction, crime, and violence on a day-to-day basis, and has no real prospects of changing any time soon, let alone during your child’s time there – you are faced with an incredibly difficult situation. Ideals are a luxury you often can't afford.
Imagine yourself in that situation. What do YOU do? Your kid is stuck in a failed educational system. If your answer is that you take the drugs and violence over creationism and Noah, that is fine, that’s your right – but you ought to have an understanding for parents who chose differently. And if your answer is that these parents owe some sort of debt to a system that has failed them and their children and that that debt should be paid by sacrificing the child’s chance at a future, than that demonstrates a very special kind of ignorance of reality and disregard for the well being of children. You take the lesser of two evils and, as much as I personally believe religious teachings to be wrong, I would rather have my children’s head filled with Jesus and God than crack and bullets – I can fix the former, I can’t fix the latter.
Imagine yourself in that situation. What do YOU do? Your kid is stuck in a failed educational system. If your answer is that you take the drugs and violence over creationism and Noah, that is fine, that’s your right – but you ought to have an understanding for parents who chose differently. And if your answer is that these parents owe some sort of debt to a system that has failed them and their children and that that debt should be paid by sacrificing the child’s chance at a future, than that demonstrates a very special kind of ignorance of reality and disregard for the well being of children. You take the lesser of two evils and, as much as I personally believe religious teachings to be wrong, I would rather have my children’s head filled with Jesus and God than crack and bullets – I can fix the former, I can’t fix the latter.
I would push very very hard to get things that IMO are excessive spending (such as education based on relgion) put OUT of the budget and funnel more money to get RID of the drugs/gangs ect.
Imagine yourself in that situation. What do YOU do? Your kid is stuck in a failed educational system. If your answer is that you take the drugs and violence over creationism and Noah, that is fine, that’s your right – but you ought to have an understanding for parents who chose differently. And if your answer is that these parents owe some sort of debt to a system that has failed them and their children and that that debt should be paid by sacrificing the child’s chance at a future, than that demonstrates a very special kind of ignorance of reality and disregard for the well being of children. You take the lesser of two evils and, as much as I personally believe religious teachings to be wrong, I would rather have my children’s head filled with Jesus and God than crack and bullets – I can fix the former, I can’t fix the latter.
I would push very very hard to get things that IMO are excessive spending (such as education based on relgion) put OUT of the budget and funnel more money to get RID of the drugs/gangs ect.
So then 10 years later when your kid has graduated from high school not knowing how to do algebra you can pat yourself on the back for paying into the broken system like a good American and not letting the Christians get your tax money?
I would push very very hard to get things that IMO are excessive spending (such as education based on relgion) put OUT of the budget and funnel more money to get RID of the drugs/gangs ect.
You aren’t being realistic. You have to deal with this NOW, not when some bureaucratic school board/city council gets around to managing a problem that will take decades to solve even IF their solution is the right one. Do you honestly think the parents of inner city Detroit sit around all day just WISHING their failing school system would magically get better? Of course they don’t. Those school board meetings are the most rambunctious, noisy screaming matches filled with desperate parents willing to kill to give their kid a fighting chance at an education.
It does nothing. The process is too slow. Your kid is trapped. Please try to absorb that.
I would push very very hard to get things that IMO are excessive spending (such as education based on relgion) put OUT of the budget and funnel more money to get RID of the drugs/gangs ect.
You aren’t being realistic. You have to deal with this NOW, not when some bureaucratic school board/city council gets around to managing a problem that will take decades to solve even IF their solution is the right one. Do you honestly think the parents of inner city Detroit sit around all day just WISHING their failing school system would magically get better? Of course they don’t. Those school board meetings are the most rambunctious, noisy screaming matches filled with desperate parents willing to kill to give their kid a fighting chance at an education.
It does nothing. The process is too slow. Your kid is trapped. Please try to absorb that.
that is why i support a voucher system regardless of the school in order to get those kids out of that situation.
when you get to solving the education problem then the drug and the gang problem goes down on it's own.
these kids then realize that there is a better life out there for them instead of living in what they consider their only situation.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks to Epic Graphics the best around. Thanks to Nex3 for the avatar visit ye old sig and avatar forum
The Philippines is largely Catholic though, thanks to the Spanish, isn't it? The problem is the US is that we are mostly Evangelical.
That's now statistically wrong, the Protestants have been eclipsed demographically and we're becoming increasingly more of a Catholic nation.
As for the origin of the parochial school, we originally taught Biblical principles in schools during the 1800's except that the Protestant crowd hated the Catholic crowd and used the Constitution to support their anti-Catholicism.
Overall, I do believe that religion plays a role in society, you can't get rid of it only white wash it with civil religion. With that said, I'm honestly just apathetic anymore to religious versus secularism. If the ends justify the means to secure a child an excellent education with a healthy social life I'm all for it. The increasingly fortification of our public school detracts away from dollars spent on educating our children, I am for safety but at some point I don't believe that we need to fortify every school. Certain schools should be fortified, but not "everyone in America."
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
I don't want any government money to go to anything based in religion of any kind.
That is the thing it isn't the governments money. It is that persons money.
The government is just giving that person their money back to educate their kids.
Not really. Once the taxes go out its the government's money. Its like paying rent for living in this country and taking advantage of our roads, education system, military protection ect. Its all one big bill.
And I say this to protect the religious associations as well.
that is because most religious associations are non-profit which aren't taxable anyway.
There really isn't any such thing as "non profit" anymore. But there are a lot of different institutions that could be taxed were it not for the law protecting religion from taxes.
I don't think parents who have their children go to private schools should be able to opt out of the tax for it either.
So they should have to pay for a system they don't use?
I don't have kids? where's my tax dollars? I want them back.
People without children don't get to opt out for example.
that is because most of the school tax is tied to property taxes. in fact it is the most expensive tax on my property tax.
Federal budget is laughably insignificant. The only reason the system even scrapes by is because of the property tax. Still kinda irrlevant.
A better thing to do is dramatically increase spending for public education and really fix these problems.
1) Make class size under 20 students per class
2) Give them free breakfast
3) Extend free lunch
4) Give schools the tools, buildings and teachers to give children the tools to get a good education. Actually on C-span 1 there is a program on right now about poverty in the united states and about half of the time spent here is about education reform and how it is key to stopping poverty
This does nothing to improve schools.
The fact is if the school can't perform then the school needs to be shut down and the kids moved elsewhere.
The biggest problem with schools are the inner city schools. they get the least of everything. hard to find teachers and school books.
When i was in school all the supplies were there. now i have to buy half the crap myself. so where is all the money going?
you are right we need massive education reform and it will help lower the poverty level. the problem is there are to many special interest groups out there to keep that from happening.
Indeed. The things I mentioned actually would help. more, better teachers. Better classrooms. Consistant data showing that smaller class sizes are ALWAYS (within the realm of error) better for the students grade's and development. Lack of food is a MAJOR reason why kids can't focus. giving them food (good healhty food btw. not the **** they eat now) actually help.
I'll look for the link but they did a study where they took troubled kids that were suspended or expelled for troublesome behavnior and sent them to an alternative school where a trial was set out to give them all organic healthy food for a full breakfast and lunch. Some of these classrooms filled with "bad kids" that failed every subject before were now in smaller classes, eating better food and in a new building and they were making A's, B's and C's. Several graduated and went on to get scholarships and become sucessful. Don't underestimate the power of healthy food and behavior.
But other than that yes there needs to be massive education reform. Triple the budget (if not more) and strive for excellence in our society once again.
Not really. Once the taxes go out its the government's money. Its like paying rent for living in this country and taking advantage of our roads, education system, military protection ect. Its all one big bill.
Then we will just have to agree to disagree.
There really isn't any such thing as "non profit" anymore. But there are a lot of different institutions that could be taxed were it not for the law protecting religion from taxes.
yes and there are major restrictions on non-profits and how to qualify for one and maintain that status.
it isn't about laws protection religions from being taxed. there is no such thing. in fact it is the exact opposite as the IRS have gone after several of these TV evangolists citing that they were operating more as a business than a church and that their financial records were not in line for a non-profit.
IE only so much money can be spent on salaries etc. not enough money was being put out and or donated to various causes to maintain their non-profit status.
Federal budget is laughably insignificant. The only reason the system even scrapes by is because of the property tax. Still kinda irrlevant.
not really and the federal budget is at an all time high almost 70b dollars. more could be given with the elimination of the Department of education but that is a different thread.
sent them to an alternative school where a trial was set out to give them all organic healthy food for a full breakfast and lunch.
They are already trying this and kids are throwing food out. in fact they are starving because there is not enough food on the plate.
it has strained school budgets to meet the new healthier standards.
meanwhile the food is being thrown away.
Not really. Once the taxes go out its the government's money. Its like paying rent for living in this country and taking advantage of our roads, education system, military protection ect. Its all one big bill.
Then we will just have to agree to disagree.
seems good to me.
There really isn't any such thing as "non profit" anymore. But there are a lot of different institutions that could be taxed were it not for the law protecting religion from taxes.
yes and there are major restrictions on non-profits and how to qualify for one and maintain that status.
it isn't about laws protection religions from being taxed. there is no such thing. in fact it is the exact opposite as the IRS have gone after several of these TV evangolists citing that they were operating more as a business than a church and that their financial records were not in line for a non-profit.
IE only so much money can be spent on salaries etc. not enough money was being put out and or donated to various causes to maintain their non-profit status.
While this is the case there are several situations where companies have fallen behind the "its a religous organization" act to get away from taxes. I agree with this but only so long as they don't recive anything from the government in return. Otherwise the churches will need to be taxed. Non profit hospitals are taxed and so to can religous organizations.
Federal budget is laughably insignificant. The only reason the system even scrapes by is because of the property tax. Still kinda irrlevant.
not really and the federal budget is at an all time high almost 70b dollars. more could be given with the elimination of the Department of education but that is a different thread.
Exactly. Even at an all time high (though disreguarding the fact that the number of students in America is also at an all time high) its about .5% of the military budget. Every dollar spent on teaching children means 200 dollars on uncessary military action. I'm not just harping on the military but at this proportion it seems as if we have some very messed up priorties. Education needs to be doubled or tripled in budget size. That should be enough to cover the massive reform we need.
Seriusly just shave 1% off of the military budget (which isn't insane at all) and add it to education and we would triple our spending there. That is more than enough to stop budget cuts to schools, open several new ones that all give better quality education than any of the previous ones.
sent them to an alternative school where a trial was set out to give them all organic healthy food for a full breakfast and lunch.
They are already trying this and kids are throwing food out. in fact they are starving because there is not enough food on the plate.
it has strained school budgets to meet the new healthier standards.
meanwhile the food is being thrown away.
Don't think that was the same one. healthy food doesn't mean small amounts of food. And I've already adressed the budget problem. We need to spend about triple the money we do now on schools. We just don't want to cut anything else to get there. And in the looming threat of the debt we also have a fear of increasing spending anywhere. Though if we did increase spending anywhere this is exactly where it needs to go. Its an investment that will pay off within the next decade. It will do more to reduce the deficite and get us off this welfare state than any plan provided by either the republicans or the democrats.
I am against this as per the first amendment. I imagine if the money was going for atheist or muslim schools all of the christian zealots would be up in arms. We would have all sort of protest. This is an infringement of our first amendment rights which protect us from Christianity and other religions. I don't want to pay for other peoples kids to be taught illogical lies and hatred.
My my what a good communist you would have made. You really need to actually read your countries constitution. Thinking the constitution is their to protect you from religion is rather absurd.
And just btw Random Nerd people who blindly sprout leftist propaganda is something that personally makes me sick. I just thought you should know.
I would push very very hard to get things that IMO are excessive spending (such as education based on relgion) put OUT of the budget and funnel more money to get RID of the drugs/gangs ect.
You aren’t being realistic. You have to deal with this NOW, not when some bureaucratic school board/city council gets around to managing a problem that will take decades to solve even IF their solution is the right one. Do you honestly think the parents of inner city Detroit sit around all day just WISHING their failing school system would magically get better? Of course they don’t. Those school board meetings are the most rambunctious, noisy screaming matches filled with desperate parents willing to kill to give their kid a fighting chance at an education.
It does nothing. The process is too slow. Your kid is trapped. Please try to absorb that.
In my oppinion it is the job of each person to try and leave the world as a "better" place for the next generation, If my child is trapped and suffered poor education, in exchange for the push required to make education better for all futuer generation, that is a price I would pay. I say "Better" in quotations because to different people "better" is different, as we all hold different values. I am also well aware that my oppinion is NOT publicly shared by many and that it can create conflict by people who feel their "better" is my worse and vice versa. all in all however I still belive this to be something I should strive for.
imo, a student should be able to receive a voucher to a religious school as long as that school meets the core requirements for math, english, science, history. then a religious course can be a good elective.
Seems to me that we need something rather more radical than further starving the public system of funding. You can't flee from the issue forever. Either you put out the effort needed to reconstruct the public education system or you let it fully collapse, leading to total unmitigated disaster for millions and millions of people.
That is the problem we keep throwing more money at a system that doesn't give back what is being spent.
most of the funding goes into administration vs student/teachers.
throwing more money hasn't fixed the problem the solution is to either offer alternatives or overhaul the system.
for me the overhaul is called fund our kids first.
the priority of the budget is going to be hiring teachers and books.
busses and maintence in order to get them there
the last people that get what is left is administration.
yep they are going to get a huge pay cut not all the perks they are use to.
the school super indendent in miami/dade county makes about 750k a year with perks. that doesn't include his staff and all the other garbage that goes with it.
we are going to do a reverse in the school system. we don't need half the admin staff that is there and most of that is overhead.
those people are going to have to do something else and the glut of the school system is going to be streamlined.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks to Epic Graphics the best around. Thanks to Nex3 for the avatar visit ye old sig and avatar forum
Seems to me that we need something rather more radical than further starving the public system of funding. You can't flee from the issue forever. Either you put out the effort needed to reconstruct the public education system or you let it fully collapse, leading to total unmitigated disaster for millions and millions of people.
That is the problem we keep throwing more money at a system that doesn't give back what is being spent.
most of the funding goes into administration vs student/teachers.
throwing more money hasn't fixed the problem the solution is to either offer alternatives or overhaul the system.
for me the overhaul is called fund our kids first.
the priority of the budget is going to be hiring teachers and books.
busses and maintence in order to get them there
the last people that get what is left is administration.
yep they are going to get a huge pay cut not all the perks they are use to.
the school super indendent in miami/dade county makes about 750k a year with perks. that doesn't include his staff and all the other garbage that goes with it.
we are going to do a reverse in the school system. we don't need half the admin staff that is there and most of that is overhead.
those people are going to have to do something else and the glut of the school system is going to be streamlined.
I would like to know, what is your opinion on streaming the whole thing further, why continue to have schools at all? we have the wireless tech availible to us that we could outright BUY the rights too some good text books with some minimal extra to keep them updated, give every student a wireless laptop and let them learn, cut back on teacher expenses (except in the very beginning grades where they learn to read/type) then let them have it an open ended education where as long as they are learning afew mandatory skills (math for example) let them AND the public at large (since the cost to include more people to information provided is negligible) learn what they will? No teachers, no princaples, no upkeep on grounds or transit issues. server upkeep odiously required and the initital setup cost for providing the hardware and installing afew public spaces like libarys with said hardware but other wise it seems extremely cost efficient in the long run.
we have the wireless tech availible to us that we could outright BUY the rights too some good text books with some minimal extra to keep them updated, give every student a wireless laptop and let them learn, cut back on teacher expenses (except in the very beginning grades where they learn to read/type) then let them have it an open ended education where as long as they are learning afew mandatory skills (math for example) let them AND the public at large (since the cost to include more people to information provided is negligible) learn what they will? No teachers, no princaples, no upkeep on grounds or transit issues. server upkeep odiously required and the initital setup cost for providing the hardware and installing afew public spaces like libarys with said hardware but other wise it seems extremely cost efficient in the long run.
No school at all i consider a bad idea. the drop out rate is high enough already if they weren't forced into a class room then it would truely be bad.
What i do agree with though is get rid of the text books. every desk as a tablet all books that are required for the class are digital. they can be done in class or at home on the computer.
the biggest cost of school is buying new books. if you buy just the digital copy then you can get it at a much better price.
all that would need then would be a work book for homework.
this idea also only works on the high school level. pretty much a no go for middle school or elementary.
but it is a start. the only issue is fixing damaged or stolen tablets.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks to Epic Graphics the best around. Thanks to Nex3 for the avatar visit ye old sig and avatar forum
Question: Where did you get the last half? I know for a fact in my country, we keep Theology and Science separate subjects that do not entirely intertwine. Church leaders say Young Earth Creationism is pretty much a dumb thing.
Sadly in America, Fundamentalists tend to have the loudest voice and tend to have effects on the culture, political attitudes, and intellectual circles in the country.
We have something where kids can learn from home...its called homeschooling. Its been proven over and over and over again that an actual school with a good teacher with smaller class sizes create trends of higher grades and more competent students.
We have something where kids can learn from home...its called homeschooling. Its been proven over and over and over again that an actual school with a good teacher with smaller class sizes create trends of higher grades and more competent students.
I'd like to see those studies, because those schools should be emulated.
Last I checked the loudest voice in a child's head for many years is a parent, and the smallest class size you can get is 1.
Home school students score WAY above average on nearly every standardized test.
What you are stating is nothing but teachers union propaganda to get more funding.
Last I checked most schools are understaffed with incompetent teachers, underfunded, and teach to the lowest common denominator.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
Pretty sure my mother is an atheist. She sent me to a Christian school and attended it till the end of 5th grade. When I started attending public school in 6th grade, I was 2 years ahead of everyone education wise and essentially wasted a year of school since there was no gifted program at the time.
Having said that, I think I'd be in favor of vouchers. I don't think they taught evolution in my Christian school, but I seeing as I was top 1% in state testing constantly and eventually was taught evolution, I don't think it mattered. For what it's worth, while I do believe in evolution over creationism, I don't think it's THAT relevant a topic in schools. One, it's really easy to teach your children what you believe, even if it's contrary to what the school is teaching. Two, evolution is basically knowledge for knowledge sake. While information is obviously 100% better then disinformation, it's functionally useless information to 99% of people. Like astronomy. Unless you're going in to the field or trying to prove you're smarter then a 5th grader, who the **** cares about mercury being closest to the sun or whether pluto is or isn't a planet?
LP, I'm checking your article out as well. Behind all of your swag is the brain of one of the most intelligent Magic players I've ever known. I guess that's one more thing for you to add to the wall of ego that is your Sally sig.
I can go with that. LK, you are the Mace Windu of red mages...cool, tempered logic in deliberation, but capable of just flat kicking tail when the situation warrants it.
We have something where kids can learn from home...its called homeschooling. Its been proven over and over and over again that an actual school with a good teacher with smaller class sizes create trends of higher grades and more competent students.
I'd like to see those studies, because those schools should be emulated.
Last I checked the loudest voice in a child's head for many years is a parent, and the smallest class size you can get is 1.
Home school students score WAY above average on nearly every standardized test.
What you are stating is nothing but teachers union propaganda to get more funding.
Last I checked most schools are understaffed with incompetent teachers, underfunded, and teach to the lowest common denominator.
The idea that homeschooling is better from the results posted is like saying that a poll from fox news by its viewers is a legitimate poll to represent the average American's opinion on political matters.
The only children that are home schooled are children who have parents that go way into their education to the point that they are significantly dissatisfied with the way the public education is schooling their children. And rightfully they should be.
However its mainly these types of parents that give their heart and soul to the children and often put them through far more intensive study than public schools would. However the average parent would more than likely be a terrible home school example. They more than likely have a full time job and not enough time to adequately teach the child everything they need to know.
So the only people that would do a good job teaching their children at home are the overwhelming vast majority of people who DO homeschool their children. So its excessivly unfair to use the statistics of sucess of these few current cases and apply them in the current scenario.
As far as small class sizes is NOT teacher union propaganda. Discrediting the teacher's union is nothing but right wing conservative propaganda trying to squeeze the miniscule budget given to them.
http://www.americanprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/issues/2011/04/pdf/class_size.pdf- This one actually questions class size reduction and holds the best basis for actual arguments against it. However even they admit that its something that can be done but feel more cost effective ways should be done first and this last. Just put this one here so i'm giving studies from both sides.
Still the overwhelming vast majority of highly accreditied studies show that Classroom size reduction is an extremely important aspect of acheiving sucess in school. the budget is so tiny that it really shouldn't be an issue and yet...it is. Here is the last one which was done by Harvard last year.
I could link you to 20 or more studies that show smaller class size almost always = better grades and greater student achievement. Though of course there are other factors but this is a very easy way to start. I only found 1 study that had any legitimate backing or facts behind it that countered the idea. However even they didn't discredit the idea but simply but more cost effective ways to attack the problem instead. Not that this would work but more that it was to expensive.
EDIT:
I also agree that public schools suck. I've been to them. But I would like to see how the home school students compair to top private school students who are in 14-15 student per teacher classrooms with all the funding in the world. I don't doubt they will still do well but it would be a more apt comparison.
I'm not defending public schools as I believe in major reform needs to happen.
Pretty sure my mother is an atheist. She sent me to a Christian school and attended it till the end of 5th grade. When I started attending public school in 6th grade, I was 2 years ahead of everyone education wise and essentially wasted a year of school since there was no gifted program at the time.
Having said that, I think I'd be in favor of vouchers. I don't think they taught evolution in my Christian school, but I seeing as I was top 1% in state testing constantly and eventually was taught evolution, I don't think it mattered. For what it's worth, while I do believe in evolution over creationism, I don't think it's THAT relevant a topic in schools. One, it's really easy to teach your children what you believe, even if it's contrary to what the school is teaching. Two, evolution is basically knowledge for knowledge sake. While information is obviously 100% better then disinformation, it's functionally useless information to 99% of people. Like astronomy. Unless you're going in to the field or trying to prove you're smarter then a 5th grader, who the **** cares about mercury being closest to the sun or whether pluto is or isn't a planet?
Except creationism is a mystical belief out of a fiction book, and evolution has all but been scientifically proven as a law.
If we took the money we spend in these dumb voucher programs, and added a bit more we could fix our public schools. Education is the foundation of life, and the reason we are struggling is because our education(as well as healthcare, ect) absolutely blow in this country. The rest of the world advances socially and we still sit here like its the damn 19th century.
@ Homeschooling
As far as I know you actually have to get a GED or take one of those High school diploma courses at a college after taking home-school. It is also not a valid option for most people outside of the upper class because most families have both adults working just to keep up these days. Then a large amount of parents even parents of recent generations(30+) were not taught as well as people are today. I know several 30+ people who went through at least 2yrs of college and don't know calc or other "advanced" stuff. Then you also have to be a good teacher on top of being knowledgeable. Home-schooling is just so limited.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."
Except creationism is a mystical belief out of a fiction book, and evolution has all but been scientifically proven as a law.
If we took the money we spend in these dumb voucher programs, and added a bit more we could fix our public schools. Education is the foundation of life, and the reason we are struggling is because our education(as well as healthcare, ect) absolutely blow in this country. The rest of the world advances socially and we still sit here like its the damn 19th century.
If we took the money used int he voucher program and applied it to public school we would still have failing public schools. You could take half the defense budget and apply it to public school and for at least the next 10 years... we would still have failing public schools. For parents with kids in school or about to be in school that is not an acceptable time frame. It is a hell of a lot easier to bite the minuscule bullet of having to teach a kid evolution and how to handle the teacher teaching something not based in fact (hell that is even a good life lesson for how to handle that kind of situation), than it is to teach them everything beyond a 5th grade level. I wish I was exaggerating. Education needs massive reform to become functional again. Throwing more money at a **** storm just turns it into an expensive **** storm. Just because a school can afford new books doesnt stop the kids from destroying them. Just because the kids in poor areas get fed properly with free meal programs doesnt mean they will suddenly pay attention in class. We have a cultural issue that needs to be fixed both at home and at school. Until that happens a lot of public schools are going to be worthless.
Your point is moot since parents will instill in their children the education and values they choose to at home – not to mention home schooling is legal in all 50 states. Parents do not own their children but, unless overridden by a court, parents do have authority over their children until the age of 18 – that includes making choices in how they will be educated. As I mentioned in my post, as long as the school meets the academic standards established at the local/state/national level the parent has the right to educate them as they see fit and have their taxes returned to them in the form of school vouchers in order to do so.
I do not have the moral authority to infringe on another individual’s right to make choices for themselves and their children based on beliefs that I may or may not agree with.
Why should their taxes be returned to them? what about people without children? Should they have their taxes returned to them as well? Why do they get to cop out?
If you say yes then we remove the very idea of public education. If for whatever reason the parents don't find public education suitable then they should be able to seek alternative types of education but under no circumstances should they be able to opt out of paying into our public education system.
That is the thing it isn't the governments money. It is that persons money.
The government is just giving that person their money back to educate their kids.
that is because most religious associations are non-profit which aren't taxable anyway.
So they should have to pay for a system they don't use?
that is because most of the school tax is tied to property taxes. in fact it is the most expensive tax on my property tax.
This does nothing to improve schools.
The fact is if the school can't perform then the school needs to be shut down and the kids moved elsewhere.
The biggest problem with schools are the inner city schools. they get the least of everything. hard to find teachers and school books.
When i was in school all the supplies were there. now i have to buy half the crap myself. so where is all the money going?
you are right we need massive education reform and it will help lower the poverty level. the problem is there are to many special interest groups out there to keep that from happening.
Thanks to Epic Graphics the best around.
Thanks to Nex3 for the avatar visit ye old sig and avatar forum
As long as the educational institution meets the criteria set forth by the local/state/federal government it is irrelevant where those tax dollars go so long as they go towards the education of their children. Given that many schools are complete and utter failures parents are essentially given a refund in the form of a coupon allowing them to take their business elsewhere – but they do not have the right NOT to educate their children.
We live in a society and we all have to pay for things via taxes we don’t want to. I don’t want to fund the war in Iraq, but I do. People who don’t drive have to pay for roads. Governments subsidize new arenas, residential and commercial developments, and parks that many citizens will never use. People who exist in a society are not exempt from paying for public things they don’t want or use. However, if you have the ability to shift money around and still achieve the desired outcome (the education of children in the case of school vouchers) than it is often good to do so.
As a side note, I sense a high level of rancor toward religion and religious educational institutions. As an atheist I understand that (I don’t agree with it, but I understand it). I tend to think anti-religious fervor should really take a back seat to the genuine practical issues facing many parents. I am originally from Michigan where a profoundly failed educational system can be observed in dozens of cities throughout the state. It’s really easy to talk about high-minded ideals and how you don’t want people’s children learning about creationism and that the earth is only 5000 years old when it isn't YOUR child trapped in a failing school. When you have a child trapped in a school that gives them no chance at being prepared for college, subjects them to a culture of drug addiction, crime, and violence on a day-to-day basis, and has no real prospects of changing any time soon, let alone during your child’s time there – you are faced with an incredibly difficult situation. Ideals are a luxury you often can't afford.
Imagine yourself in that situation. What do YOU do? Your kid is stuck in a failed educational system. If your answer is that you take the drugs and violence over creationism and Noah, that is fine, that’s your right – but you ought to have an understanding for parents who chose differently. And if your answer is that these parents owe some sort of debt to a system that has failed them and their children and that that debt should be paid by sacrificing the child’s chance at a future, than that demonstrates a very special kind of ignorance of reality and disregard for the well being of children. You take the lesser of two evils and, as much as I personally believe religious teachings to be wrong, I would rather have my children’s head filled with Jesus and God than crack and bullets – I can fix the former, I can’t fix the latter.
I would push very very hard to get things that IMO are excessive spending (such as education based on relgion) put OUT of the budget and funnel more money to get RID of the drugs/gangs ect.
So then 10 years later when your kid has graduated from high school not knowing how to do algebra you can pat yourself on the back for paying into the broken system like a good American and not letting the Christians get your tax money?
You aren’t being realistic. You have to deal with this NOW, not when some bureaucratic school board/city council gets around to managing a problem that will take decades to solve even IF their solution is the right one. Do you honestly think the parents of inner city Detroit sit around all day just WISHING their failing school system would magically get better? Of course they don’t. Those school board meetings are the most rambunctious, noisy screaming matches filled with desperate parents willing to kill to give their kid a fighting chance at an education.
It does nothing. The process is too slow. Your kid is trapped. Please try to absorb that.
that is why i support a voucher system regardless of the school in order to get those kids out of that situation.
when you get to solving the education problem then the drug and the gang problem goes down on it's own.
these kids then realize that there is a better life out there for them instead of living in what they consider their only situation.
Thanks to Epic Graphics the best around.
Thanks to Nex3 for the avatar visit ye old sig and avatar forum
That's now statistically wrong, the Protestants have been eclipsed demographically and we're becoming increasingly more of a Catholic nation.
As for the origin of the parochial school, we originally taught Biblical principles in schools during the 1800's except that the Protestant crowd hated the Catholic crowd and used the Constitution to support their anti-Catholicism.
Overall, I do believe that religion plays a role in society, you can't get rid of it only white wash it with civil religion. With that said, I'm honestly just apathetic anymore to religious versus secularism. If the ends justify the means to secure a child an excellent education with a healthy social life I'm all for it. The increasingly fortification of our public school detracts away from dollars spent on educating our children, I am for safety but at some point I don't believe that we need to fortify every school. Certain schools should be fortified, but not "everyone in America."
Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
Not really. Once the taxes go out its the government's money. Its like paying rent for living in this country and taking advantage of our roads, education system, military protection ect. Its all one big bill.
There really isn't any such thing as "non profit" anymore. But there are a lot of different institutions that could be taxed were it not for the law protecting religion from taxes.
I don't have kids? where's my tax dollars? I want them back.
Federal budget is laughably insignificant. The only reason the system even scrapes by is because of the property tax. Still kinda irrlevant.
Indeed. The things I mentioned actually would help. more, better teachers. Better classrooms. Consistant data showing that smaller class sizes are ALWAYS (within the realm of error) better for the students grade's and development. Lack of food is a MAJOR reason why kids can't focus. giving them food (good healhty food btw. not the **** they eat now) actually help.
I'll look for the link but they did a study where they took troubled kids that were suspended or expelled for troublesome behavnior and sent them to an alternative school where a trial was set out to give them all organic healthy food for a full breakfast and lunch. Some of these classrooms filled with "bad kids" that failed every subject before were now in smaller classes, eating better food and in a new building and they were making A's, B's and C's. Several graduated and went on to get scholarships and become sucessful. Don't underestimate the power of healthy food and behavior.
But other than that yes there needs to be massive education reform. Triple the budget (if not more) and strive for excellence in our society once again.
Then we will just have to agree to disagree.
yes and there are major restrictions on non-profits and how to qualify for one and maintain that status.
it isn't about laws protection religions from being taxed. there is no such thing. in fact it is the exact opposite as the IRS have gone after several of these TV evangolists citing that they were operating more as a business than a church and that their financial records were not in line for a non-profit.
IE only so much money can be spent on salaries etc. not enough money was being put out and or donated to various causes to maintain their non-profit status.
not really and the federal budget is at an all time high almost 70b dollars. more could be given with the elimination of the Department of education but that is a different thread.
They are already trying this and kids are throwing food out. in fact they are starving because there is not enough food on the plate.
it has strained school budgets to meet the new healthier standards.
meanwhile the food is being thrown away.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/06/nyregion/healthier-school-lunches-face-student-rejection.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IB7NDUSBOo
Thanks to Epic Graphics the best around.
Thanks to Nex3 for the avatar visit ye old sig and avatar forum
seems good to me.
While this is the case there are several situations where companies have fallen behind the "its a religous organization" act to get away from taxes. I agree with this but only so long as they don't recive anything from the government in return. Otherwise the churches will need to be taxed. Non profit hospitals are taxed and so to can religous organizations.
Exactly. Even at an all time high (though disreguarding the fact that the number of students in America is also at an all time high) its about .5% of the military budget. Every dollar spent on teaching children means 200 dollars on uncessary military action. I'm not just harping on the military but at this proportion it seems as if we have some very messed up priorties. Education needs to be doubled or tripled in budget size. That should be enough to cover the massive reform we need.
Seriusly just shave 1% off of the military budget (which isn't insane at all) and add it to education and we would triple our spending there. That is more than enough to stop budget cuts to schools, open several new ones that all give better quality education than any of the previous ones.
Don't think that was the same one. healthy food doesn't mean small amounts of food. And I've already adressed the budget problem. We need to spend about triple the money we do now on schools. We just don't want to cut anything else to get there. And in the looming threat of the debt we also have a fear of increasing spending anywhere. Though if we did increase spending anywhere this is exactly where it needs to go. Its an investment that will pay off within the next decade. It will do more to reduce the deficite and get us off this welfare state than any plan provided by either the republicans or the democrats.
My my what a good communist you would have made. You really need to actually read your countries constitution. Thinking the constitution is their to protect you from religion is rather absurd.
And just btw Random Nerd people who blindly sprout leftist propaganda is something that personally makes me sick. I just thought you should know.
In my oppinion it is the job of each person to try and leave the world as a "better" place for the next generation, If my child is trapped and suffered poor education, in exchange for the push required to make education better for all futuer generation, that is a price I would pay. I say "Better" in quotations because to different people "better" is different, as we all hold different values. I am also well aware that my oppinion is NOT publicly shared by many and that it can create conflict by people who feel their "better" is my worse and vice versa. all in all however I still belive this to be something I should strive for.
i both oppose religion and public schooling.
imo, a student should be able to receive a voucher to a religious school as long as that school meets the core requirements for math, english, science, history. then a religious course can be a good elective.
That is the problem we keep throwing more money at a system that doesn't give back what is being spent.
most of the funding goes into administration vs student/teachers.
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2011/06/the-failure-of-american-schools/308497/
throwing more money hasn't fixed the problem the solution is to either offer alternatives or overhaul the system.
for me the overhaul is called fund our kids first.
the priority of the budget is going to be hiring teachers and books.
busses and maintence in order to get them there
the last people that get what is left is administration.
yep they are going to get a huge pay cut not all the perks they are use to.
the school super indendent in miami/dade county makes about 750k a year with perks. that doesn't include his staff and all the other garbage that goes with it.
we are going to do a reverse in the school system. we don't need half the admin staff that is there and most of that is overhead.
those people are going to have to do something else and the glut of the school system is going to be streamlined.
Thanks to Epic Graphics the best around.
Thanks to Nex3 for the avatar visit ye old sig and avatar forum
I would like to know, what is your opinion on streaming the whole thing further, why continue to have schools at all? we have the wireless tech availible to us that we could outright BUY the rights too some good text books with some minimal extra to keep them updated, give every student a wireless laptop and let them learn, cut back on teacher expenses (except in the very beginning grades where they learn to read/type) then let them have it an open ended education where as long as they are learning afew mandatory skills (math for example) let them AND the public at large (since the cost to include more people to information provided is negligible) learn what they will? No teachers, no princaples, no upkeep on grounds or transit issues. server upkeep odiously required and the initital setup cost for providing the hardware and installing afew public spaces like libarys with said hardware but other wise it seems extremely cost efficient in the long run.
No school at all i consider a bad idea. the drop out rate is high enough already if they weren't forced into a class room then it would truely be bad.
What i do agree with though is get rid of the text books. every desk as a tablet all books that are required for the class are digital. they can be done in class or at home on the computer.
the biggest cost of school is buying new books. if you buy just the digital copy then you can get it at a much better price.
all that would need then would be a work book for homework.
this idea also only works on the high school level. pretty much a no go for middle school or elementary.
but it is a start. the only issue is fixing damaged or stolen tablets.
Thanks to Epic Graphics the best around.
Thanks to Nex3 for the avatar visit ye old sig and avatar forum
Sadly in America, Fundamentalists tend to have the loudest voice and tend to have effects on the culture, political attitudes, and intellectual circles in the country.
I'd like to see those studies, because those schools should be emulated.
Last I checked the loudest voice in a child's head for many years is a parent, and the smallest class size you can get is 1.
Home school students score WAY above average on nearly every standardized test.
What you are stating is nothing but teachers union propaganda to get more funding.
Last I checked most schools are understaffed with incompetent teachers, underfunded, and teach to the lowest common denominator.
Having said that, I think I'd be in favor of vouchers. I don't think they taught evolution in my Christian school, but I seeing as I was top 1% in state testing constantly and eventually was taught evolution, I don't think it mattered. For what it's worth, while I do believe in evolution over creationism, I don't think it's THAT relevant a topic in schools. One, it's really easy to teach your children what you believe, even if it's contrary to what the school is teaching. Two, evolution is basically knowledge for knowledge sake. While information is obviously 100% better then disinformation, it's functionally useless information to 99% of people. Like astronomy. Unless you're going in to the field or trying to prove you're smarter then a 5th grader, who the **** cares about mercury being closest to the sun or whether pluto is or isn't a planet?
The idea that homeschooling is better from the results posted is like saying that a poll from fox news by its viewers is a legitimate poll to represent the average American's opinion on political matters.
The only children that are home schooled are children who have parents that go way into their education to the point that they are significantly dissatisfied with the way the public education is schooling their children. And rightfully they should be.
However its mainly these types of parents that give their heart and soul to the children and often put them through far more intensive study than public schools would. However the average parent would more than likely be a terrible home school example. They more than likely have a full time job and not enough time to adequately teach the child everything they need to know.
So the only people that would do a good job teaching their children at home are the overwhelming vast majority of people who DO homeschool their children. So its excessivly unfair to use the statistics of sucess of these few current cases and apply them in the current scenario.
As far as small class sizes is NOT teacher union propaganda. Discrediting the teacher's union is nothing but right wing conservative propaganda trying to squeeze the miniscule budget given to them.
Links for small class sizes.
http://firstread.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/05/25/11883033-fact-check-class-sizes-do-matter?lite
http://www.edweek.org/ew/issues/class-size/
http://www.centerforpubliceducation.org/Main-Menu/Organizing-a-school/Class-size-and-student-achievement-At-a-glance/Class-size-and-student-achievement-Research-review.html
http://www.greatschools.org/find-a-school/defining-your-ideal/174-class-size.gs?page=all
http://www.classsizematters.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/STAR.pdf - THIS STUDY is actually done by a highly conservative state and it still shows consistant data
http://neatoday.org/2011/04/20/does-class-size-really-matter/
http://www.americanprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/issues/2011/04/pdf/class_size.pdf- This one actually questions class size reduction and holds the best basis for actual arguments against it. However even they admit that its something that can be done but feel more cost effective ways should be done first and this last. Just put this one here so i'm giving studies from both sides.
Still the overwhelming vast majority of highly accreditied studies show that Classroom size reduction is an extremely important aspect of acheiving sucess in school. the budget is so tiny that it really shouldn't be an issue and yet...it is. Here is the last one which was done by Harvard last year.
http://www.prweb.com/releases/2011/individualized/prweb8724914.htm
I could link you to 20 or more studies that show smaller class size almost always = better grades and greater student achievement. Though of course there are other factors but this is a very easy way to start. I only found 1 study that had any legitimate backing or facts behind it that countered the idea. However even they didn't discredit the idea but simply but more cost effective ways to attack the problem instead. Not that this would work but more that it was to expensive.
EDIT:
I also agree that public schools suck. I've been to them. But I would like to see how the home school students compair to top private school students who are in 14-15 student per teacher classrooms with all the funding in the world. I don't doubt they will still do well but it would be a more apt comparison.
I'm not defending public schools as I believe in major reform needs to happen.
Except creationism is a mystical belief out of a fiction book, and evolution has all but been scientifically proven as a law.
If we took the money we spend in these dumb voucher programs, and added a bit more we could fix our public schools. Education is the foundation of life, and the reason we are struggling is because our education(as well as healthcare, ect) absolutely blow in this country. The rest of the world advances socially and we still sit here like its the damn 19th century.
@ Homeschooling
As far as I know you actually have to get a GED or take one of those High school diploma courses at a college after taking home-school. It is also not a valid option for most people outside of the upper class because most families have both adults working just to keep up these days. Then a large amount of parents even parents of recent generations(30+) were not taught as well as people are today. I know several 30+ people who went through at least 2yrs of college and don't know calc or other "advanced" stuff. Then you also have to be a good teacher on top of being knowledgeable. Home-schooling is just so limited.
Thomas Jefferson
Jefferson's letter to John Adams, April 11 1823
If we took the money used int he voucher program and applied it to public school we would still have failing public schools. You could take half the defense budget and apply it to public school and for at least the next 10 years... we would still have failing public schools. For parents with kids in school or about to be in school that is not an acceptable time frame. It is a hell of a lot easier to bite the minuscule bullet of having to teach a kid evolution and how to handle the teacher teaching something not based in fact (hell that is even a good life lesson for how to handle that kind of situation), than it is to teach them everything beyond a 5th grade level. I wish I was exaggerating. Education needs massive reform to become functional again. Throwing more money at a **** storm just turns it into an expensive **** storm. Just because a school can afford new books doesnt stop the kids from destroying them. Just because the kids in poor areas get fed properly with free meal programs doesnt mean they will suddenly pay attention in class. We have a cultural issue that needs to be fixed both at home and at school. Until that happens a lot of public schools are going to be worthless.