My thoughts(put in a spoiler as not to stifle the conversation)
I am against this as per the first amendment. I imagine if the money was going for atheist or muslim schools all of the christian zealots would be up in arms. We would have all sort of protest. This is an infringement of our first amendment rights which protect us from Christianity and other religions. I don't want to pay for other peoples kids to be taught illogical lies and hatred.
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"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."
Never. I'll fight this to the day I die. this is just a screwed up major conservative political ploy to get funding for religious schools to teach young earth creationism to keep us stupid and voting republican because Jesus was born in Texas and Taxes are Satan's way of combating our freedom.
This sounds like flaming or trolling but its not. Its pretty much the core of this movement and it needs to be stamped out right now. My state voted it down as should all states.
Never. I'll fight this to the day I die. this is just a screwed up major conservative political ploy to get funding for religious schools to teach young earth creationism to keep us stupid and voting republican because Jesus was born in Texas and Taxes are Satan's way of combating our freedom.
Question: Where did you get the last half? I know for a fact in my country, we keep Theology and Science separate subjects that do not entirely intertwine. Church leaders say Young Earth Creationism is pretty much a dumb thing.
On to my view.
Um...No. Not entirely.
Remember, separation of Church and State? This shows some form of favoritism and trying to kiss up to whoever is sitting on top of their diocese.
Buuuuut, it is the state's duty to help it's citizens and provide education to as many people as possible. So I sort of understand why.
I just hope they keep Theology and Science separate and don't raise complete morons that reject science because the Bible says so.
It's worth noting that the court case described in the article was settled 10 years ago (it's a very old article). The court upheld the program on the basis that the government was giving money to parents, and it was the parents that chose to spend it on a religious school.
I am for a voucher system and I think that this situation would be fine under a voucher system. While people will send their kids to religious schools, parents on a whole will want to send their kids to best school they can. You might get to see special schools like science and math academies or art schools or schools that specialize in dyslexia.
Never. I'll fight this to the day I die. this is just a screwed up major conservative political ploy to get funding for religious schools to teach young earth creationism to keep us stupid and voting republican because Jesus was born in Texas and Taxes are Satan's way of combating our freedom.
Question: Where did you get the last half? I know for a fact in my country, we keep Theology and Science separate subjects that do not entirely intertwine. Church leaders say Young Earth Creationism is pretty much a dumb thing.
On to my view.
Um...No. Not entirely.
Remember, separation of Church and State? This shows some form of favoritism and trying to kiss up to whoever is sitting on top of their diocese.
Buuuuut, it is the state's duty to help it's citizens and provide education to as many people as possible. So I sort of understand why.
I just hope they keep Theology and Science separate and don't raise complete morons that reject science because the Bible says so.
Good for you. In my country about 40% of the population would rather believe in fairy tales rather than science ans uses an ancient book with thousands of mis-translations, intentional changes and corruption to skew the public away from "evil scientists". And the conservative right have beautifully sewn together the idea of fiscially conservative economic views to Jesus and anyone against them is against Jesus.
So thats where I get that second part. I realize for the most part this is hard to understand some of the cultural oddities of America from a European perspective. There are several republicans and conservatives that dont' fall into the extreme as afformentioned but there are several that do. Those people are the ones in support of this bill.
We have seperation of church and state but.....yeah.
I am for a voucher system and I think that this situation would be fine under a voucher system. While people will send their kids to religious schools, parents on a whole will want to send their kids to best school they can. You might get to see special schools like science and math academies or art schools or schools that specialize in dyslexia.
I'd be fine with just allowing the parents to deduct the cost of the education from their school taxes. I'm 100% pro voucher, but every school that takes government money has to teach the standards. Who cares what else they teach as long as they teach the required curriculum.
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Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
The problem is that by taking the absurd amount of taxes that they do in the first place (well, where I live at least), they are pushing these alternative schools out of existence. So people pay the higher taxes, but then they can't afford tuition. They still claim you still have a choice, but the circumstances of that choice have been highly influenced by their actions.
I understand the other side's argument but look at it from that perspective. When you combine the above with calls for federal control of education, you have the makings of a well-oiled indoctrination machine.
Whether they indoctrinate the children in the "right" or the "wrong" way is of less concern to me then the fact that people are losing independent choice, that the aim of the standardizers is to crush any dissent from the government's narratives.
in 2011 we spent just shy of 70 billion in education. That is a laughable amount of money. In truth it needs to be somewhere 3x that much. For every dollar spent of tax money on schools and educating the future generations we are spending 200 dollars on an uncessarily large military that truely (for the most part) severs no major role in today's world but rather a flashy show of our military might.
I'm not trying to gut the defense spending but I just think its stupid that we could double the budget for education by simply cutting military spending by .5%
in 2011 we spent just shy of 70 billion in education. That is a laughable amount of money. In truth it needs to be somewhere 3x that much. For every dollar spent of tax money on schools and educating the future generations we are spending 200 dollars on an uncessarily large military that truely (for the most part) severs no major role in today's world but rather a flashy show of our military might.
I'm not trying to gut the defense spending but I just think its stupid that we could double the budget for education by simply cutting military spending by .5%
Cut military spending by 30%. 10% to tax cuts, 10% to pay down the debt, 10% to education. A common sense move.
in 2011 we spent just shy of 70 billion in education. That is a laughable amount of money. In truth it needs to be somewhere 3x that much. For every dollar spent of tax money on schools and educating the future generations we are spending 200 dollars on an uncessarily large military that truely (for the most part) severs no major role in today's world but rather a flashy show of our military might.
I'm not trying to gut the defense spending but I just think its stupid that we could double the budget for education by simply cutting military spending by .5%
Cut military spending by 30%. 10% to tax cuts, 10% to pay down the debt, 10% to education. A common sense move.
Seems legit. Though I would do it like this.
30% cut to military.
10% to education
20% towards the debt with no tax cuts.
This isn't the thread but our taxes are far to low despite what people are led to believe by all media both liberal, conservative and neutral.
I back a voucher system. parents should have an alternative if they live in a bad public school system. why continue to send kids to a school that is not doing it's job? what does that accomplish?
i think that if people like obama and other liberals in congress think that our public education system is so great their kids should be forced to attend. they don't get the right to put their kids in private school like they do.
i am lucky my kids attend some of the best public schools in the area. even this on is going to suffer because the school board can't get their budgeting under control and have to close schools.
i don't think they have to but they don't want to make the cuts to their budgets to keep them going.
they think a 1 cent hike in the sales tax would prevent it. ol well.
the public school system in this country is failing and has failed.
more so in the inner city if you are going to give these kids a chance they need an alternative.
In my country about 40% of the population would rather believe in fairy tales rather than science ans uses an ancient book with thousands of mis-translations, intentional changes and corruption to skew the public away from "evil scientists".
yes and mocking and making fun a peoples religious views is such a good arguement.
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I back a voucher system. parents should have an alternative if they live in a bad public school system. why continue to send kids to a school that is not doing it's job? what does that accomplish?
What makes you think that a school will do better when funding is taken from it? Because that is what the voucher system does. Why don't you instead support an improved public school with the resources it needs?
On the one hand I see your point, but on the other hand I understand where the parents who want vouchers are coming from.
Lets take Detroit as an example, since its near me and I know some about it. The schools are struggling, really bad. Partially due to lack of funding, but more so due to incompetent spending and cronyism. So as a parent in Detroit (hypothetically) I can spend my time and effort to clean up the school system and, after decades of effort, see a marked improvement for everyone -- but at the cost of it beign too late for my kids who have already gone through the system. Alternately I can get a voucher system, and my kids will be able to go to a better school but at the cost of those future kids whos school system is not improved.
Ultimately we *do* need to improve the public school system, but I cannot blame parents who want to make sure their kids don't have to go through it before it's fixed.
All that said, my solution as a parent who has the means to do so (and I recognize that a lot don't) was to not live in Detroit. I picked my house based on proximity to my job AND quality of the public school system.
Question: Where did you get the last half? I know for a fact in my country, we keep Theology and Science separate subjects that do not entirely intertwine. Church leaders say Young Earth Creationism is pretty much a dumb thing.
The Philippines is largely Catholic though, thanks to the Spanish, isn't it? The problem is the US is that we are mostly Evangelical.
I back a voucher system. parents should have an alternative if they live in a bad public school system. why continue to send kids to a school that is not doing it's job? what does that accomplish?
What makes you think that a school will do better when funding is taken from it? Because that is what the voucher system does. Why don't you instead support an improved public school with the resources it needs?
On the one hand I see your point, but on the other hand I understand where the parents who want vouchers are coming from.
Lets take Detroit as an example, since its near me and I know some about it. The schools are struggling, really bad. Partially due to lack of funding, but more so due to incompetent spending and cronyism. So as a parent in Detroit (hypothetically) I can spend my time and effort to clean up the school system and, after decades of effort, see a marked improvement for everyone -- but at the cost of it beign too late for my kids who have already gone through the system. Alternately I can get a voucher system, and my kids will be able to go to a better school but at the cost of those future kids whos school system is not improved.
Ultimately we *do* need to improve the public school system, but I cannot blame parents who want to make sure their kids don't have to go through it before it's fixed.
All that said, my solution as a parent who has the means to do so (and I recognize that a lot don't) was to not live in Detroit. I picked my house based on proximity to my job AND quality of the public school system.
The problem, blatch and Mystery45, is that the vouchers don't guarantee a better school. In the article I posted, it talks about how voucher schools are using Bob Jones University Press textbooks and Accelerated Christian Education books as their science books, see below for a quote:
Are dinosaurs alive today? Scientists are becoming more convinced of their existence.
Have you heard of the `Loch Ness Monster' in Scotland? `Nessie,' for short has been recorded on sonar from a small submarine, described by eyewitnesses, and photographed by others. Nessie appears to be a plesiosaur.
Could a fish have developed into a dinosaur? As astonishing as it may seem, many evolutionists theorize that fish evolved into amphibians and amphibians into reptiles. This gradual change from fish to reptiles has no scientific basis. No transitional fossils have been or ever will be discovered because God created each type of fish, amphibian, and reptile as separate, unique animals. Any similarities that exist among them are due to the fact that one Master Craftsmen fashioned them all."
Extract from Biology 1099, Accelerated Christian Education Inc. (1995)
So while I'm not against school vouchers, I'm against public funding going to a blatantly awful education. I'm a bigger fan of Charter Schools than vouchers, as Charter Schools tend to have a better track record (although how much impact their selection of students has, I don't know).
TThe problem, blatch and Mystery45, is that the vouchers don't guarantee a better school. In the article I posted, it talks about how voucher schools are using Bob Jones University Press textbooks and Accelerated Christian Education books as their science books,
I think you may have missed my point entirely, because I never said vouchers necessarily guarantee a better school. I said I can't blame parents for trying to get a better school for their child using vouchers instead of trying to fix the public school system, because fixing the public school system takes longer than their kid will be in school.
Religious schools are just private schools run by a religious sect. So what's the problem with using a voucher so your kid can attend one? If the government was directly involved I would see how that could violate the separation of church and state but the government is just giving parents the funds that would have been spent on their child for that year and saying "Here, thanks for being active in your child's education. Send them to the school of your choice.".
I'm opposed to vouchers on the basis that I don't want tax funded education to be more efficient, I'd rather it not exist at all.
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I do not consider returning an individual’s tax dollars to them in the form of school vouchers a violation of the establishment clause of the first amendment – even if that individual chooses to invest those vouchers into a religious institution. So long as the institution meets the educational standards of the city/state/nation, it is not my business how parents choose to educate their children.
A common argument against vouchers goes something to the effect of:
What makes you think that a school will do better when funding is taken from it? Because that is what the voucher system does. Why don't you instead support an improved public school with the resources it needs?
And the counter to that argument is thus: If I am the parent of a school-aged child it is not my responsibility to sacrifice the education and possibly safety of my child in order to attempt to improve their school. If I was a parent (I am not) I do not give a crap about the financial/social challenges of my local school. I want my child educated and safe and if a school cannot provide that service, than I should have the right to take my child elsewhere. Improving a school is a long slow process and my kid does not have time for those changes to take place.
My kid has ONE shot – just ONE shot to achieve the education he or she needs and if I have two crappy choices:
1) Child can go to a dangerous underperforming school and be inadequately prepared for college.
Or
2) Child can go to a school that meets the necessary academic standards but ALSO caries religious undertones that I do not agree with.
I must choose which side of the poop sandwich to bite. It’s a really really poopy sandwich and I really really do not want to take a bite… but I have to. As an atheist, I chose option 2. I will not sacrifice my child’s education or safety for anything and I would never deny anyone the right to make educational choices for their children. Even if I don’t like the choices they make, they still have the right to make them.
TThe problem, blatch and Mystery45, is that the vouchers don't guarantee a better school. In the article I posted, it talks about how voucher schools are using Bob Jones University Press textbooks and Accelerated Christian Education books as their science books,
I think you may have missed my point entirely, because I never said vouchers necessarily guarantee a better school. I said I can't blame parents for trying to get a better school for their child using vouchers instead of trying to fix the public school system, because fixing the public school system takes longer than their kid will be in school.
No, you missed my point - I wasn't criticizing your point, I was expanding on the reasons why even though vouchers seem like a good idea, the current implementation is a bad one because it allows public funding for creationist 'science' education, among other things. I apologize if I didn't make that clear. That's why I support charter schools and schools with different theories of education than the standard public school, but I don't particularly like the 'voucher' system.
So long as these schools plan on teaching that the Lochness monster is real, or that creationism is science I'll vote no. IF...a religious school was shown to have academic integrity, I would consider saying yes on a case by case basis.
But let’s be honest, in reality I'd always vote no, because the whole reason people are pushing to get vouchers for religious schools is because religious educators can't teach the Bible or the Quran in public school. After the Christian schools get approved the Muslim, Jewish, Mormon, and Scientology charter schools will open.
Or here's a CRAZY idea....you can just have kids go to regular, secular schools and people can teach their children stories out of old books at home or at church.
I would never deny anyone the right to make educational choices for their children. Even if I don’t like the choices they make, they still have the right to make them.
And what about the child? Parents don't own their children. Why is it their "right" to teach them garbage? Doesn't the child deserve a chance to have a quality eductation that isn't filled with blantantly false or misleading information (go check out what Ken Ham would have children taught in public school)?
Our belief is not a belief. Our principles are not a faith. We do not rely solely upon science and reason, because these are necessary rather than sufficient factors, but we distrust anything that contradicts science or outrages reason. We may differ on many things, but what we respect is free inquiry, openmindedness, and the pursuit of ideas for their own sake.
― Christopher Hitchens, God Is Not Great
So long as these schools plan on teaching that the Lochness monster is real, or that creationism is science I'll vote no. IF...a religious school was shown to have academic integrity, I would consider saying yes on a case by case basis.
But let’s be honest, in reality I'd always vote no, because the whole reason people are pushing to get vouchers for religious schools is because religious educators can't teach the Bible or the Quran in public school. After the Christian schools get approved the Muslim, Jewish, Mormon, and Scientology charter schools will open.
Or here's a CRAZY idea....you can just have kids go to regular, secular schools and people can teach their children stories out of old books at home or at church.
I think that view is quite valid; however, it would work better if public schools didnt suck horribly in many areas. What do you say to the parents that know their kid is more likely to learn how to cook meth at public school than to learn how to do algebra? It is entirely possible to have parents that also believe creationism is a bunch of bs, but will send their kids to a school that teaches it because it's a hell of a lot easier to just re-teach your kid biology when you know they are getting a proper education in math, English, physics... than it is to teach them everything when they are going to a school that doesnt have enough text books for all the students, or can't afford a proper chem lab, or has kids smoking joints in the hallways.
I think that view is quite valid; however, it would work better if public schools didnt suck horribly in many areas. What do you say to the parents that know their kid is more likely to learn how to cook meth at public school than to learn how to do algebra? It is entirely possible to have parents that also believe creationism is a bunch of bs, but will send their kids to a school that teaches it because it's a hell of a lot easier to just re-teach your kid biology when you know they are getting a proper education in math, English, physics... than it is to teach them everything when they are going to a school that doesnt have enough text books for all the students, or can't afford a proper chem lab, or has kids smoking joints in the hallways.
This is a reasonable argument. I would rather have children taught church stories than have them be illiterate. But the parent would have to show that this is the case. And that the only school available to them which can give the child a better education is a religious one. This circumstance is probably rare, but I’d guess it exists somewhere.
I know lots of kids go to religious schools and are well educated, and become wildly successful. I have no real problem with them generally speaking. But I don't think public funds should be given to these institutions unless it's a last resort.
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Our belief is not a belief. Our principles are not a faith. We do not rely solely upon science and reason, because these are necessary rather than sufficient factors, but we distrust anything that contradicts science or outrages reason. We may differ on many things, but what we respect is free inquiry, openmindedness, and the pursuit of ideas for their own sake.
― Christopher Hitchens, God Is Not Great
I think that view is quite valid; however, it would work better if public schools didnt suck horribly in many areas. What do you say to the parents that know their kid is more likely to learn how to cook meth at public school than to learn how to do algebra? It is entirely possible to have parents that also believe creationism is a bunch of bs, but will send their kids to a school that teaches it because it's a hell of a lot easier to just re-teach your kid biology when you know they are getting a proper education in math, English, physics... than it is to teach them everything when they are going to a school that doesnt have enough text books for all the students, or can't afford a proper chem lab, or has kids smoking joints in the hallways.
This is a reasonable argument. I would rather have children taught church stories than have them be illiterate. But the parent would have to show that this is the case. And that the only school available to them which can give the child a better education is a religious one. This circumstance is probably rare, but I’d guess it exists somewhere.
I know lots of kids go to religious schools and are well educated, and become wildly successful. I have no real problem with them generally speaking. But I don't think public funds should be given to these institutions unless it's a last resort.
I guess that then gets into whether or not it is worth the trouble of checking? How do you create those standards? Who is going to actually do the checking into whether or not the parent has a legitimate claim? How much money would it cost to make sure those claims are seen to in a quick enough manner to make sure kids arnt in limbo waiting to see which school they can go to as the school year is starting?
It's a similar argument as the one against drug tests for welfare. Sure some people might abuse the system... but is it really worth the effort in trying to catch them?
So while I'm not against school vouchers, I'm against public funding going to a blatantly awful education. I'm a bigger fan of Charter Schools than vouchers, as Charter Schools tend to have a better track record (although how much impact their selection of students has, I don't know).
Umm you still need a voucher for a charter school. Frankly i don't care where they send their kids charter or religious or private school as long as they have the option to do so.
the public education system has failed. There needs to be a new alternative.
as i said i am lucky my kids go to a grade A public school. in fact all 3 elementary, middle and high schools are graded A.
other kids not so lucky.
unless you like forcing kids to attend bad schools so long as it isn't yours.
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I don't want any government money to go to anything based in religion of any kind. And I say this to protect the religious associations as well. If we give them money then there is now no reason not to tax them. Religion gets away with billions because they aren't taxed due to the separation of church and state. But this also works as government doesn't give money to religion either. So no....we should not EVER under any circumstance give money to religious or any private schools. I don't think parents who have their children go to private schools should be able to opt out of the tax for it either. People without children don't get to opt out for example.
A better thing to do is dramatically increase spending for public education and really fix these problems.
1) Make class size under 20 students per class
2) Give them free breakfast
3) Extend free lunch
4) Give schools the tools, buildings and teachers to give children the tools to get a good education. Actually on C-span 1 there is a program on right now about poverty in the united states and about half of the time spent here is about education reform and how it is key to stopping poverty.
yes and mocking and making fun a peoples religious views is such a good arguement.
I will say that I went to far there. Its a common quote that has been tossed around and I used it. I don't mean that all religion is nothing but a Fairy tale. But I will say that I disagree with people who take the bible over science and fight tooth and nail against it with everything they have. Thats what i mean when they would rather believe in a fairy tale. I don't complain about Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Pagans, Hindus or whatever so long as they go along with real science and find that it actually doesn't go against their belief. But anyone who says "nope its not in the bible/Koran/whatever then I think its crap and I don't want my child learning it." when its nigh irrefutable. I know you and I already had our evolution debate and I do not want to get into it right now but for the sake of my argument I stand by evolution and other science that is usually refuted by certain religious groups that has accredited backing from the scientific community. That is my point of view.
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Should our tax dollars pay for religious schools?
My thoughts(put in a spoiler as not to stifle the conversation)
I am against this as per the first amendment. I imagine if the money was going for atheist or muslim schools all of the christian zealots would be up in arms. We would have all sort of protest. This is an infringement of our first amendment rights which protect us from Christianity and other religions. I don't want to pay for other peoples kids to be taught illogical lies and hatred.
Thomas Jefferson
Jefferson's letter to John Adams, April 11 1823
This sounds like flaming or trolling but its not. Its pretty much the core of this movement and it needs to be stamped out right now. My state voted it down as should all states.
Question: Where did you get the last half? I know for a fact in my country, we keep Theology and Science separate subjects that do not entirely intertwine. Church leaders say Young Earth Creationism is pretty much a dumb thing.
On to my view.
Um...No. Not entirely.
Remember, separation of Church and State? This shows some form of favoritism and trying to kiss up to whoever is sitting on top of their diocese.
Buuuuut, it is the state's duty to help it's citizens and provide education to as many people as possible. So I sort of understand why.
I just hope they keep Theology and Science separate and don't raise complete morons that reject science because the Bible says so.
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I am in your [PACK]. Watching you... do... something.
Good for you. In my country about 40% of the population would rather believe in fairy tales rather than science ans uses an ancient book with thousands of mis-translations, intentional changes and corruption to skew the public away from "evil scientists". And the conservative right have beautifully sewn together the idea of fiscially conservative economic views to Jesus and anyone against them is against Jesus.
So thats where I get that second part. I realize for the most part this is hard to understand some of the cultural oddities of America from a European perspective. There are several republicans and conservatives that dont' fall into the extreme as afformentioned but there are several that do. Those people are the ones in support of this bill.
We have seperation of church and state but.....yeah.
we already have these. They are private schools.
I understand the other side's argument but look at it from that perspective. When you combine the above with calls for federal control of education, you have the makings of a well-oiled indoctrination machine.
Whether they indoctrinate the children in the "right" or the "wrong" way is of less concern to me then the fact that people are losing independent choice, that the aim of the standardizers is to crush any dissent from the government's narratives.
I'm not trying to gut the defense spending but I just think its stupid that we could double the budget for education by simply cutting military spending by .5%
Cut military spending by 30%. 10% to tax cuts, 10% to pay down the debt, 10% to education. A common sense move.
Seems legit. Though I would do it like this.
30% cut to military.
10% to education
20% towards the debt with no tax cuts.
This isn't the thread but our taxes are far to low despite what people are led to believe by all media both liberal, conservative and neutral.
i think that if people like obama and other liberals in congress think that our public education system is so great their kids should be forced to attend. they don't get the right to put their kids in private school like they do.
i am lucky my kids attend some of the best public schools in the area. even this on is going to suffer because the school board can't get their budgeting under control and have to close schools.
i don't think they have to but they don't want to make the cuts to their budgets to keep them going.
they think a 1 cent hike in the sales tax would prevent it. ol well.
the public school system in this country is failing and has failed.
more so in the inner city if you are going to give these kids a chance they need an alternative.
yes and mocking and making fun a peoples religious views is such a good arguement.
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On the one hand I see your point, but on the other hand I understand where the parents who want vouchers are coming from.
Lets take Detroit as an example, since its near me and I know some about it. The schools are struggling, really bad. Partially due to lack of funding, but more so due to incompetent spending and cronyism. So as a parent in Detroit (hypothetically) I can spend my time and effort to clean up the school system and, after decades of effort, see a marked improvement for everyone -- but at the cost of it beign too late for my kids who have already gone through the system. Alternately I can get a voucher system, and my kids will be able to go to a better school but at the cost of those future kids whos school system is not improved.
Ultimately we *do* need to improve the public school system, but I cannot blame parents who want to make sure their kids don't have to go through it before it's fixed.
All that said, my solution as a parent who has the means to do so (and I recognize that a lot don't) was to not live in Detroit. I picked my house based on proximity to my job AND quality of the public school system.
http://io9.com/5976112/how-19+year+old-activist-zack-kopplin-is-making-life-hell-for-louisianas-creationists
http://www.alternet.org/story/155926/the_loch_ness_monster_is_real%3B_the_kkk_is_good%3A_the_shocking_content_of_publicly_paid_for_christian_school_textbooks
I don't have a problem with vouchers, I have a problem with public funding for misinformation.
The Philippines is largely Catholic though, thanks to the Spanish, isn't it? The problem is the US is that we are mostly Evangelical.
The problem, blatch and Mystery45, is that the vouchers don't guarantee a better school. In the article I posted, it talks about how voucher schools are using Bob Jones University Press textbooks and Accelerated Christian Education books as their science books, see below for a quote:
So while I'm not against school vouchers, I'm against public funding going to a blatantly awful education. I'm a bigger fan of Charter Schools than vouchers, as Charter Schools tend to have a better track record (although how much impact their selection of students has, I don't know).
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I think you may have missed my point entirely, because I never said vouchers necessarily guarantee a better school. I said I can't blame parents for trying to get a better school for their child using vouchers instead of trying to fix the public school system, because fixing the public school system takes longer than their kid will be in school.
I do not consider returning an individual’s tax dollars to them in the form of school vouchers a violation of the establishment clause of the first amendment – even if that individual chooses to invest those vouchers into a religious institution. So long as the institution meets the educational standards of the city/state/nation, it is not my business how parents choose to educate their children.
A common argument against vouchers goes something to the effect of:
And the counter to that argument is thus: If I am the parent of a school-aged child it is not my responsibility to sacrifice the education and possibly safety of my child in order to attempt to improve their school. If I was a parent (I am not) I do not give a crap about the financial/social challenges of my local school. I want my child educated and safe and if a school cannot provide that service, than I should have the right to take my child elsewhere. Improving a school is a long slow process and my kid does not have time for those changes to take place.
My kid has ONE shot – just ONE shot to achieve the education he or she needs and if I have two crappy choices:
1) Child can go to a dangerous underperforming school and be inadequately prepared for college.
Or
2) Child can go to a school that meets the necessary academic standards but ALSO caries religious undertones that I do not agree with.
I must choose which side of the poop sandwich to bite. It’s a really really poopy sandwich and I really really do not want to take a bite… but I have to. As an atheist, I chose option 2. I will not sacrifice my child’s education or safety for anything and I would never deny anyone the right to make educational choices for their children. Even if I don’t like the choices they make, they still have the right to make them.
No, you missed my point - I wasn't criticizing your point, I was expanding on the reasons why even though vouchers seem like a good idea, the current implementation is a bad one because it allows public funding for creationist 'science' education, among other things. I apologize if I didn't make that clear. That's why I support charter schools and schools with different theories of education than the standard public school, but I don't particularly like the 'voucher' system.
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But let’s be honest, in reality I'd always vote no, because the whole reason people are pushing to get vouchers for religious schools is because religious educators can't teach the Bible or the Quran in public school. After the Christian schools get approved the Muslim, Jewish, Mormon, and Scientology charter schools will open.
Or here's a CRAZY idea....you can just have kids go to regular, secular schools and people can teach their children stories out of old books at home or at church.
And what about the child? Parents don't own their children. Why is it their "right" to teach them garbage? Doesn't the child deserve a chance to have a quality eductation that isn't filled with blantantly false or misleading information (go check out what Ken Ham would have children taught in public school)?
― Christopher Hitchens, God Is Not Great
I think that view is quite valid; however, it would work better if public schools didnt suck horribly in many areas. What do you say to the parents that know their kid is more likely to learn how to cook meth at public school than to learn how to do algebra? It is entirely possible to have parents that also believe creationism is a bunch of bs, but will send their kids to a school that teaches it because it's a hell of a lot easier to just re-teach your kid biology when you know they are getting a proper education in math, English, physics... than it is to teach them everything when they are going to a school that doesnt have enough text books for all the students, or can't afford a proper chem lab, or has kids smoking joints in the hallways.
This is a reasonable argument. I would rather have children taught church stories than have them be illiterate. But the parent would have to show that this is the case. And that the only school available to them which can give the child a better education is a religious one. This circumstance is probably rare, but I’d guess it exists somewhere.
I know lots of kids go to religious schools and are well educated, and become wildly successful. I have no real problem with them generally speaking. But I don't think public funds should be given to these institutions unless it's a last resort.
― Christopher Hitchens, God Is Not Great
I guess that then gets into whether or not it is worth the trouble of checking? How do you create those standards? Who is going to actually do the checking into whether or not the parent has a legitimate claim? How much money would it cost to make sure those claims are seen to in a quick enough manner to make sure kids arnt in limbo waiting to see which school they can go to as the school year is starting?
It's a similar argument as the one against drug tests for welfare. Sure some people might abuse the system... but is it really worth the effort in trying to catch them?
Umm you still need a voucher for a charter school. Frankly i don't care where they send their kids charter or religious or private school as long as they have the option to do so.
the public education system has failed. There needs to be a new alternative.
as i said i am lucky my kids go to a grade A public school. in fact all 3 elementary, middle and high schools are graded A.
other kids not so lucky.
unless you like forcing kids to attend bad schools so long as it isn't yours.
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A better thing to do is dramatically increase spending for public education and really fix these problems.
1) Make class size under 20 students per class
2) Give them free breakfast
3) Extend free lunch
4) Give schools the tools, buildings and teachers to give children the tools to get a good education. Actually on C-span 1 there is a program on right now about poverty in the united states and about half of the time spent here is about education reform and how it is key to stopping poverty.
I will say that I went to far there. Its a common quote that has been tossed around and I used it. I don't mean that all religion is nothing but a Fairy tale. But I will say that I disagree with people who take the bible over science and fight tooth and nail against it with everything they have. Thats what i mean when they would rather believe in a fairy tale. I don't complain about Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Pagans, Hindus or whatever so long as they go along with real science and find that it actually doesn't go against their belief. But anyone who says "nope its not in the bible/Koran/whatever then I think its crap and I don't want my child learning it." when its nigh irrefutable. I know you and I already had our evolution debate and I do not want to get into it right now but for the sake of my argument I stand by evolution and other science that is usually refuted by certain religious groups that has accredited backing from the scientific community. That is my point of view.