Currently we have an incredibly polarized and dysfunctional congress. Regardless of either side of the debate you are in its INCREDIBLY dysfunctional. To a degree doing SOMETHING would be better than nothing. Even if it was republican or democratic. There is no such thing as compromise in the government anymore.
I will give credit to Obama for actually bringing some compromise to the floor. It is not enough and he should take some advice from Republicans and cut some damn spending. Though the republicans need to wake up and smell the math that raising taxes a little doesn't wreck the economy and we need revenue and fast.
We have too many politicians in Washington. We need problem solvers not politicians and I can only hope that in two years people realize this and have some better congressional candidates.
I hold this totally on congress. Despite what a few leading Republican congressmen have said it is NOT the presidents job to make laws. That is expressed clearly in the constitution that the law making ability is congressional only. He has some checks and balances powers to veto such laws. But as far as finding a solution it rests on the men and women of the congress. Though this of course doesn't exempt Obama from responsibilities in law making but it is NOT his job to do it. The congress is the ones that need to get their arses in gear. Obama has enough problems but saying he is the root of these problems is like saying the supreme court is responsible for the war in Iraq.
This has become a huge game of chicken and I give the president props for playing well. I agree this is all on congress. The president has laid out what he would like done and its up to congress to sit down and come up with something tangible that the president had in mind. You cant just come back with a plan that has nothing to do with what the president had in mind and say take it or leave it and expect the president to cave to you.
The president has laid out what he would like done and its up to congress to sit down and come up with something tangible that the president had in mind. You cant just come back with a plan that has nothing to do with what the president had in mind and say take it or leave it and expect the president to cave to you.
They did.
They raised taxes on those making 1m dollars or more. they came up with 1 trillion dollars in new revenue.
they also cut 1 trillion in government spending.
the difference is that obama has 1.4 trillion dollars in new taxes where the extra 400b is coming from who knows.
all i can find is that he has offered about 400b in cuts.
then he wants new spending of about 60b dollars or so.
they gave him what he wanted, but it isn't his plan so instead of being a leader he acts like a child crying that he didn't get what he wanted.
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The president has laid out what he would like done and its up to congress to sit down and come up with something tangible that the president had in mind. You cant just come back with a plan that has nothing to do with what the president had in mind and say take it or leave it and expect the president to cave to you.
They did.
They raised taxes on those making 1m dollars or more. they came up with 1 trillion dollars in new revenue.
they also cut 1 trillion in government spending.
the difference is that obama has 1.4 trillion dollars in new taxes where the extra 400b is coming from who knows.
all i can find is that he has offered about 400b in cuts.
then he wants new spending of about 60b dollars or so.
they gave him what he wanted, but it isn't his plan so instead of being a leader he acts like a child crying that he didn't get what he wanted.
Because the President had to veto his own bill because it was a pump fake that wasn't ever meant to actually cause compromise, just meant to be able to say "look! They aren't compromising" when it failed to pass, but then accidentally really did get the votes necessary to pass because the other side was willing to compromise on it.
Oh wait, that was Mitch McConnell trying to play partisan politics and failing miserably and having to resort to filibustering his own bill.
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Asking people to remove quotes in their signatures is tyranny! If I can't say something just because someone's feelings are hurt then no one would ever be able to say anything! Political correctness is stupid.
The president has laid out what he would like done and its up to congress to sit down and come up with something tangible that the president had in mind. You cant just come back with a plan that has nothing to do with what the president had in mind and say take it or leave it and expect the president to cave to you.
They did.
They raised taxes on those making 1m dollars or more. they came up with 1 trillion dollars in new revenue.
they also cut 1 trillion in government spending.
the difference is that obama has 1.4 trillion dollars in new taxes where the extra 400b is coming from who knows.
all i can find is that he has offered about 400b in cuts.
then he wants new spending of about 60b dollars or so.
they gave him what he wanted, but it isn't his plan so instead of being a leader he acts like a child crying that he didn't get what he wanted.
So he cut 340 billion in cuts. You can say a simplyfing version that makes things easier. Just say he cut 340 billion. I honestly am dissapointed and there should be more cuts than that. Probably about 600 billion would be realistic. A trillion would be nice but not really realistic.
The new revenue also took away loopholes that affect those across the board almost. So the taxes go up on ultra wealthy (millionairs littearlly) but also on those on the lower levels. Obama rejected the idea because it means that people making 50k will be paying for the continued tax break of those making 900k.
You can't say that republicans filibusted hundreds of bills and hide behind the "oh its just because they were bad bills that didn't agree with their politics" but then when Obama has a legitimate reason to veto something you call him a child stamping his feet?
The bill was supposed to be a compromise but it swung obvsiouly in the republican direction. ITs a good step but they need to come over a little more.
How about something like this.
Increase tax rate on those making 500k or more a year. Then close loopholes and decutions exactly as listed before but everyone making under 150k a year are exempt from those deductions being removed.
That sounds like a good bipartisan tax plan full of compromise. Then of course I wouldn't begin to say I know enough about the budget to comment on what should be cut but if they have 400B cut from social programs and 200 billion cut from defense spending then we could have a deal.
Thats 600Billion in cuts and more than a trillion in revenue. Then congress should get to work on making programs (including the military) run more efficently without actually gutting the programs. then we could get another half trillion dollars worth of savings from actions like that.
When the economy recovers more then the need for these social programs will drop. Food stamps will be easier to maintain and welfare/unemployment paychecks will be less needed. Thats a great way to cut entitlment spending is by fixing the economy. Thats a republican idea that I support. Though I don't support gutting all the programs and somehow that will lead to a healthy economy.
There are too many sacred cows. Think about the home mortgage interest deduction.
This is touted on both sides as a "middle class" deduction, but the vast majority of people don't even get this deduction because they either rent or take the standard deduction.
It mostly helps wealthier people. Getting rid of it would only slow home ownership slightly. It would raise tons of revenue, and yet its a sacred cow.
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There are too many sacred cows. Think about the home mortgage interest deduction.
This isn't as big of a deal as people think just like you said.
In order to itemize your taxes you must be able to get over that 11k deduction mark of the standard deduction.
The only people that benefit from itemization are people which big mortages on their homes.
I know every year me and the wife try to itemize our taxes and we always fall short.
our morgage interest just isn't large enough nor do we have the other deductions needed.
your right most people take the standard deduction.
Obama has a legitimate reason to veto something you call him a child stamping his feet?
No he doesn't have a reason. they gave him everything he wanted and he is still crying about it. The man isn't a leader and he isn't acting like one.
Reagan, Clinton, Bush Sr, even Bush Jr. were better leaders than obama. why? because they were still able to accomplish everything they wanted with split congresses.
There were able to get both sides or opposing sides to the table and get it worked out. obama? hell no. he just whines and cry's that he can't have his way.
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No he doesn't have a reason. they gave him everything he wanted and he is still crying about it. The man isn't a leader and he isn't acting like one.
Reagan, Clinton, Bush Sr, even Bush Jr. were better leaders than obama. why? because they were still able to accomplish everything they wanted with split congresses.
You ever step back and think the way those 'other' leaders compromised to the congress because it was a split congress is why we are where we are at in the first place? If Obama follows the norm the others did to get us here, we wont get any better, but stagnate even more. Sounds like a bad plan.
Reagan: Basically invented deficit spending when not in a war.
I guess you missed that thing called the cold war which reagan helped end i no small part due to all that massive military spending.
Clinton: Started deregulation
Not really. Deregulation had been going on for a while. what clinton did was more deregulation than what reagan had done.
all of which was needed to get the economy going again.
Bush Jr: Dereg, Medicare Part Horrible, Iraq (unpaid for), biggest recession in since the depression, etc. Bush Tax Cuta
Which one? the first recession was caused by the .com bust of the 90's. The second recession was caused by the carter and made worse by the clinton administrations.
Bush attempted to stop the bad loans but congress did nothing. Not only that it was opposed by democrats to do anything. more so chris dodd and barney frank.
Beyond you're history lesson, this has been the conversation
Not sure what history you are refering to because well you are misinformed nor whatever books you are studing are highly innaccurate.
Obama wants $250,000+ to pay more taxes while not charging the rest of us more. Really his only request.
Which has factually been shown to do nothing to solve the debt problem. This is simply blowing smoke and people are going nuts over thinking that it will solve the problem.
it won't. it will projected run the government for 4 months.
big deal.
) Republicans want to cut medicaid, ss, & medicare or other stuff, and they don't want to raise taxes on the rich.
Well when you are spending 1.5 trillion dollars on those three programs then something needs to be done about them. their last bill would raise taxes on those making 1m or more.
so that is not true.
Republicans have offered to close undisclosed "loopholes." What they have named doesn't ever actually match their numbers.
Democrats have offered 0 in cuts and have done nothing to stop the bleeding that continues. in fact in their new bill they have 60b dollars in new spending that obama wants.
as for the rest of your comments nothing but liberal talking points that have no more truth to them then than they do now.
reforming SS, medicare, and medicaid that they function properly without the constant waste and ballooning costs will not kill people.
this is a pack of lies straight from the liberal hand book.
The fact is the federal government can no longer support these program the way they are setup. there is simply not enough working people or businesses to continue these program the way that they are.
without some type of reform we are going to go the way of greece.
our national debt now exceeds what we produce. IE the national debt is greater than our GDP.
the federal government brings in 2.0-2.5 trillion dollars a year. we are spending over 3 trillion dollars a year.
SS, medicare and medicaid account for 1.5-1.6 trillion dollars of that. the military including overseas operations accounts for about 687b dollars.
the fact is we do not have a revenue issue we have a spending issue and most of that coming from these legacy programs that have ballooned out of control.
Sure you can raise taxes but that is not going to stop the problem.
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Obama has a legitimate reason to veto something you call him a child stamping his feet?
No he doesn't have a reason. they gave him everything he wanted and he is still crying about it. The man isn't a leader and he isn't acting like one.
Reagan, Clinton, Bush Sr, even Bush Jr. were better leaders than obama. why? because they were still able to accomplish everything they wanted with split congresses.
There were able to get both sides or opposing sides to the table and get it worked out. obama? hell no. he just whines and cry's that he can't have his way.
I still don't see any legitmate reasons for him to pass it. I mean they posted the bill as a compromise but it really....really wasn't. If it were truely in the middle then it would have worked. In all actuality the plan was that the plan B was going to be brought up and then they would work on it and devise a way to compromise more on the bill. They would make ammendments and try to get it passed by both parts of congress. Its like going to a pawn shop and asking for more than you know you will get for the item you are trying to sell. Then you haggle with each other till you find something in the middle.
HOWEVER the republicans can't even pass their own bill. I don't even remotly see how it is Obama's fault that the plan B failed. It didn't even get to the point where the HOUSE could vote on it much less senate approval. So how you blame the Republicans inability to formulate a realistic and actually bi-partisan plan really doesn't make any sense. Seriously. Watch something other than Fox news. I usually have a great respect for you on these forums even though we are usually on opposite sides. You normally bring a well rounded and infromative position to your arguments. However this time your doing nothing but making false and ingorant statments about the president.
I have the distinct impression, after listening to people from both sides (republican and democrat) on my business news over the last few days (CNBC), that its unlikely we will see a deal done. Its unfortunate that its come to that. What we need is a balanced package with 1 trillion of revenue increases (tax increases on the highest earners, and closing loopholes to get there), and 1 trillion of spending cuts (real spending cuts from aspects of government that were actually going to be continued with over that 10 year period anyway(ie: nothing to do with the wars, since those are being wound down regardless)). In total that gives a net deficit reduction of $200billion per year over that 10-year period. A small dent, but a dent nonetheless given how large the deficit is, and how large the overall federal budget is.
I dont feel it would be a good idea to go over the cliff, though we would likely then go from the cliff to the debt ceiling then and simply be in the same position all over again (and no, even if the government shut down due to hitting the debt ceiling we wouldnt suddenly default on our debt, we have plenty of tax income coming in to pay the debt payments (which are a rather small portion of the overall budget), and pay a decent amount of the other main programs the government would need to cover.)) Certainly not a perfect situation, and something that should be avoided as well, but would likely be the inevitable next stage in the fiscal negotiations should we fail to come up with an agreement and end up going over the cliff in a few days.
What also frustrates me, when I see the representatives from either side come onto CNBC to discuss the issue, I hear so many talking points (especially from the democrat side that come on the show) and a significant amount of interruption and talking over the republican representatives while they are trying to refute the other side and pointing out where the democrat rep (in this case) is incorrect or is isnt telling the whole truth. The republicans do some of this as well, but Ive seen far more from the democrats that come on the show, and to me, its just sad.
At some point these people need to be willing to put politics aside and do whats needed for the country. Honestly the political one-upsmanship is really starting to tick me off of late. Part of the problem though is just how divided the country is on much of these issues. We've continued to see significant swings in the support of the parties and what they stand for over the last 4 years. Swung democrat in 2008, swung republican rather strongly in 2010, and now its swung back towards the middle. Obama may have won, but he didnt win by much, the house is still rather strongly controlled by the republicans, and the senate is still split, but with a continued democrat majority.
Its still possible we could come out with a bill that could pass in the house and senate, (Im ignoring the attempt by the republicans at political gamesmanship in their attempt to put that one bill to a vote which never ended up happenning) since both sides were actually getting rather close prior to the christmas holiday. Apparently the majority/minority leaders from the house and senate and the speaker of the house are scheduled to meet with obama later today to try to see about hashing something out before time runs out. So, I suppose, here's hoping.
Regardless, in the end its going to be a long and hard road to work towards the changes neccessary to bring the government budget back in order, and something that will have to be taken care of, else we see our debt rise to $20 trillion or higher by the next election and the significant issues that could lead to, especially long-term.
Nothing will happen though unless both sides are willing to put politics aside and yes, both sides are significantly to blame for the current situation, and agree to put the long-term future of the country, and the long-term futures of the citizens of our country first.
@ jeffbcrandall: If both sides do get a deal done on the fiscal cliff, all it will do is avoid the inevitable. The more we avoid the cliff, the worse it is going to get when we finally have to face the music. While I agree that it will suck to go over this current fiscal cliff, the alternative is putting this off longer and suffering a much bigger crash down the road. We need a budget similar to the one Gary Johnson proposed when he ran for president that immediately balances the budget by year one. Cutting government spending over the course of 10 years just doesn't work. Just like I said to mystery45, how can we expect things to be static 10 years down the road? After all, you're going to have five different Congresses sworn in that could potentially change fiscal policy during that time period. There are also too many different financial factors that could change as well, such as interest rates skyrocketing and causing the interest on the national debt to consume our revenue.
This is why I don't buy into this "fiscal cliff" hype. For one thing, this entire thing was brought about by Congress and Obama kicking the can down the road back in August 2011 when the Budget Control Act was passed. They have nobody but themselves to blame for creating this fiscal cliff in the first place. For another, this current fiscal cliff that we have is basically a charade compared to what is to come. Virtually nobody in the mainstream media is talking about the REAL fiscal cliff, and that is a full-blown currency crisis along with a sovereign debt crisis that can't be solved by kicking the can down the road. What's happening right now is similar to the standoff that we had in late July/August last year; an 11th-hour deal was signed to avert the debt crisis. That's why I think there will be something that happens before 2013. Our government will continue to kick the can down the road because nobody has the guts to immediately sort out our fiscal woes. Eventually though, kicking the can down the road will be impossible when we meet up with that can and realize it's monstrous and unable to be kicked any longer.
@ jeffbcrandall: If both sides do get a deal done on the fiscal cliff, all it will do is avoid the inevitable. The more we avoid the cliff, the worse it is going to get when we finally have to face the music. While I agree that it will suck to go over this current fiscal cliff, the alternative is putting this off longer and suffering a much bigger crash down the road. We need a budget similar to the one Gary Johnson proposed when he ran for president that immediately balances the budget by year one. Cutting government spending over the course of 10 years just doesn't work. Just like I said to mystery45, how can we expect things to be static 10 years down the road? After all, you're going to have five different Congresses sworn in that could potentially change fiscal policy during that time period. There are also too many different financial factors that could change as well, such as interest rates skyrocketing and causing the interest on the national debt to consume our revenue.
This is why I don't buy into this "fiscal cliff" hype. For one thing, this entire thing was brought about by Congress and Obama kicking the can down the road back in August 2011 when the Budget Control Act was passed. They have nobody but themselves to blame for creating this fiscal cliff in the first place. For another, this current fiscal cliff that we have is basically a charade compared to what is to come. Virtually nobody in the mainstream media is talking about the REAL fiscal cliff, and that is a full-blown currency crisis along with a sovereign debt crisis that can't be solved by kicking the can down the road. What's happening right now is similar to the standoff that we had in late July/August last year; an 11th-hour deal was signed to avert the debt crisis. That's why I think there will be something that happens before 2013. Our government will continue to kick the can down the road because nobody has the guts to immediately sort out our fiscal woes. Eventually though, kicking the can down the road will be impossible when we meet up with that can and realize it's monstrous and unable to be kicked any longer.
Hey, if I thought we had even the smallest chance of actually being able to pass such a plan to bring the budget back into balance within a year, then Id be all over that. The cuts and tax adjustments would be painful, for everyone, but neccessary. The problem is, there are so few in government that would actually want to take such a sudden and drastic step to deal with those issues, that its really not much of a possibilitiy of something to ever happen. The realities of the current setup are such that continual incremental adjustments to deal with things are probably the best we are going to get in the near term, and with any luck, with enough of those adjusments over time, we'll get back to some healthier and sustainable numbers. The problem inevitably is that no one in government wants to be the ones to bring on the "pain" of dealing with the the cuts/revenue increases it would take to balance the budget. It would very likely end up resulting in political suicide, because, unfortunately, people are selfish, and dont want to have to be the generation to take the pain needed to be able to make things sustainable for the long-term. Eventually though, barring something significantly changing, the pain will come to us, whether we like it or not, whether thats 4 years from now, or 10, it will happen, and without significant changes to our current government budgets, nothing will stop it from happenning.
Going over the cliff does mean that we are hurting a lot of people for very little gain. The main reason I'm against any republican plan, is that it's also designed to hurt people for very little gain, and possibly in worse ways longer term.
so uncontrolled government spending is better?
we wouldn't be in this mess to begin with had people used austerity measures instead of letting the budget go unaccountable.
We are spending way to much money. in fact we are spending 1.2 trillion dollars to much.
The government has been brining in 2-2.4 trillion dollars in tax revenue.
yet when your social programs eat 1.5 trillion of that you don't have much left over.
I don't welcome the austerity bomb, but republicans are completely unwilling to govern with the good of the nation's people in mind. Or if they think they are doing so, they simply don't know enough.
Where do you get your information from? i have to question the source at this point because this is just so far out there it isn't even funny.
We are in this mess because people think that government should do every thing in the book and pay for it.
Government should give food to people.
Government should pay for their housing
Government should pay living wages
Government should supply healthcare
Government government government.
The list keeps going. Not sure but what you don't realize this requires money and a lot of money. That money has to come from somewhere and that somewhere are working american's and wealthy americans.
Yet government needs to spend more and more and more and more. someone has to pay for it. It isn't free. The problem is we are borrowing money to pay bills. that is the quickest way to financial ruin and we are headed there in a land slide.
Heck we are borrowing money to pay on the interest on the money that we borrowed.
you do realize that this is just a receipe for disaster right? That it cannot continue and things have to be done to fix it?
Social programs have to be reformed.
Tax system has to be reformed.
government agencies that are no longer needed need to be gone.
government programs that don't work need to go.
government spending has increased over 40% in just a 10 year period. it needs to be cut back.
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The government has been brining in 2-2.4 trillion dollars in tax revenue.
yet when your social programs eat 1.5 trillion of that you don't have much left over.
What are your thoughts on hacking into the bloated military budget? I believe it was around $1,200,000,000,000 last year. That seems like a good place to make some cuts.
Not sure but what you don't realize this requires money and a lot of money. That money has to come from somewhere and that somewhere are working american's and wealthy americans.
Yet government needs to spend more and more and more and more. someone has to pay for it. It isn't free. The problem is we are borrowing money to pay bills. that is the quickest way to financial ruin and we are headed there in a land slide.
Heck we are borrowing money to pay on the interest on the money that we borrowed.
you do realize that this is just a receipe for disaster right? That it cannot continue and things have to be done to fix it?
I mean I agree that unnecessary programs need to go, but we can also put a huge dent in the deficit by cutting defense spending.
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"For small creatures such as we the vastness is bearable only through love." --Carl Sagan
The cuts are definitely painful, but they aren't necessary. Austerity, right now, is like midevil doctors using leaches to cure disease. It sounds good (back then) because everyone KNOWS humors are out of balance and leaches have humor detecting suckers, but in actuality its a bad idea.
Going over the cliff does mean that we are hurting a lot of people for very little gain. The main reason I'm against any republican plan, is that it's also designed to hurt people for very little gain, and possibly in worse ways longer term.
I don't welcome the austerity bomb, but republicans are completely unwilling to govern with the good of the nation's people in mind. Or if they think they are doing so, they simply don't know enough.
The longer we wait to deal with the Budget Deficit, especially when its over a trillion dollars per year and will continue to be that large for at least the next 4 years based upon projections unless something changes, then the harder its going to be to be able to deal with the sheer amount of debt our country has accumulated. The sooner we deal with these issues, the sooner we can moving forward without having to worry about MUCH LARGER issues in the future.
This is the fault of both democrats and republicans, the sooner EVERYONE realizes this, the sooner we may be able to try to figure out a way to fix all this. Cuts ARE neccessary, and will continue to be neccessary. There is no possible way to tax enough to be able to pay for the amount the government currently is spending, taxes are a piece of it, but cannot and is not possible to be the only piece. To those who think that our country having over 16 trillion in debt now, and over 20 trillion in debt 4 years from now is okay... YOU ARE WRONG. Debt Downgrades, higher borrowing costs, and the potential to be removed as the reserve currency, as well as just a general devaluation of our currency, is only going to lead to even more pain than anything currently being suggested to try to avoid that.
EDIT: As for the defense budget. It was actually $846 billion including money for national defense w/overseas operations and veterans services/benefits. SS was right behind that at about $828 billion, and the Largest was Medicare/Medicaid at: $870 billion. All those numbers included both mandatory and discretionary spending, and those are the three largest categorical expenses for our government this year. Some crazy numbers to be sure. Everything would need to be cut some regardless if we are going to come up with the amount of cuts neccessary to be able to bring the budget back in balance.
Do keep in mind that due to explicit contribution towards Medicare/SS they're actually a fraction of the general budget they both appear FICA contributions to both not counting the $180/mo premium for Medicare most seniors pay covered about 80% of each overall last year. (90% for SS, 70% for Medicare - roughly)
Medicaid is another ball of wax however - but last numbers I see for it are under $200bish.
Also note that I believe (although not in a position to check ATM) that DHS which is ostensibly defense related isn't generally considered part of the 846 figure.
Do keep in mind that due to explicit contribution towards Medicare/SS they're actually a fraction of the general budget they both appear FICA contributions to both not counting the $180/mo premium for Medicare most seniors pay covered about 80% of each overall last year. (90% for SS, 70% for Medicare - roughly)
Medicaid is another ball of wax however - but last numbers I see for it are under $200bish.
Also note that I believe (although not in a position to check ATM) that DHS which is ostensibly defense related isn't generally considered part of the 846 figure.
You are correct, when DHS (Department of Homeland Security) is added in, its about $900 billion per year. I checked the information for the medicare/medicaid category, and it lists the total category cost at $870 billion, with medicare specifically at approx $500 billion. The rest would be medicaid or other Health and Human Services costs, of which I imagine medicaid is likely the largest.
I believe (though I cannot be 100% as of yet), that the current setup has obamacare taking a significant amount out of medicare to have it moved into medicaid to help pay for the obamacare changes/costs.
Thats another aspect that bothers me about the actual cuts. Is oftentimes you hear people in government talk about how they have made cuts, only to fail to mention that the money from those cuts were inevitably used to pay for another new or expanded aspect of government, so there was actually no net savings with the cutting being done. Cutting is only real cutting if the savings are used to offset the deficit, not to pay for something new.
To use a term I heard a number of years ago. There seems to be a lot of "Fuzzy Math" going around these days within all of these talks about cutting and the fiscal cliff. The more I delve into some of the proposals being made, the more Im beginning to realize that the amount of cutting being proposed isnt even a fraction of what is being said, which is unfortunate and disingenuous in my eyes.
We are in this mess because people think that government should do every thing in the book and pay for it.
Government should give food to people.
Government should pay for their housing
Government should pay living wages
Government should supply healthcare
If we dont expect the government to do these things, we have to accept the other side of the situation if they dont. We will have a huge portion of people die of starvation, lack of medical treatment, and be homeless. We cant have our cake and eat it too.
If you cut the welfare budget and people start dying more, what are you going to say to those that scream we are being inhumane? Those who ask why we have such a large portion of our population homeless or starving? Taking away such entitlements could back fire in such ways you have not thought about.
We are in this mess because people think that government should do every thing in the book and pay for it.
Government should give food to people.
Government should pay for their housing
Government should pay living wages
Government should supply healthcare
If we dont expect the government to do these things, we have to accept the other side of the situation if they dont. We will have a huge portion of people die of starvation, lack of medical treatment, and be homeless. We cant have our cake and eat it too.
If you cut the welfare budget and people start dying more, what are you going to say to those that scream we are being inhumane? Those who ask why we have such a large portion of our population homeless or starving? Taking away such entitlements could back fire in such ways you have not thought about.
I would suggest that wasteful spending in any aspect of government, including those who get the money who may not really need it (ie: could get a job but arent, or other aspects where the system is being abused) should be a significant priority to help bring the costs of these programs down as much as possible. Those that NEED it, should get it, Ive no problem with that. I would prefer to see the abuses and waste in any part of the government gone through and dealt with. Whether social programs, or defense, or anything else. Something also needs to be done about the pension systems in the country. IMHO guaranteed retirement income from the government (outside of SS of course, shouldnt exist), everyone should end up on a 401k or similar program, where they can put money in tax free, potentially have it matched by the organization, and then have that to work with when they retire in addition to their SS benefits.
Eventually when many of these bloated pensions (many of them government jobs, some not of course), come due, and many all at once over the next 10 years, I can forsee significant budget holes being blown into many states and in our own federal budget. (Also, see the post office as a problematic example of this). What we need is a complete overhaul of the government budget. It needs to be gone through line by line and all the waste and abuse, and special interest stuff needs to be removed, and the systems for the most bloated programs need to have some very hard decisions made for them. The biggest one in my eyes would be raising the retirement age from 65 to 70 as the first step. The defense budget needs to be gone through and cut down to a more reasonable level. At the end of the day $900 billion is rather obscene to be spending each and every year on that. Defense of the country is one of the largest duties of our federal government to do however, so while cutting should happen, it would still need to be left with enough to ensure our safety as a nation. SS/Medicare would both benefit from the retirement age being raised, and from significant reforms to raise long-term solvency, and to cut costs while not significantly altering current payouts. Real cutting of health care COSTS needs to happen. Originally Obamacare was supposed to make healthcare more affordable, in the end, it didnt lower the costs, it maybe tempered the increases (a little), and it made heathcare available to even more of the population (a good thing). What we need is greater competition within the healthcare industry, and through that a way to allow greater competition to cut costs.
The entire Tax code needs to be revamped, simplified, and adjusted to allow for the removal of loopholes, special deductions, and other aspects that allow people (especially the rich and big corporations) to end up paying little to no taxes, something to fix the whole "fair share" issue which raising their rates, without fixing the loopholes and deductions, doesnt do. The standard deduction would be the only deduction, and it would be raised to a higher number overall, claiming individuals on your taxes would also remain intact. From there you take your income and compare it to that number, and you pay the tiered rates like you do now, period. Yes, some people, even in the middle class, may end up paying more taxes, part of whats offsetting that is of course the larger standard deduction. The business tax setup would look at revenues vs expenses vs ending inventory/equipment value (with only one method being available to use for valuation to not allow for accounting shenanigans to get out of paying the real taxes they should owe).
Investment into the economy and into business, and into creating new technologies (And new jobs) should be encouraged, but not overly subsidized, while there shouldnt be a special tax on capital gains and dividends, there also shouldnt be some huge discount on the rates they pay from those gains. Also, some of the investment vehicles that have been created over the last 20 years need to be reigned in a bit, the fact that things like the subprime mortgage crisis was even allowed to happen is a testament to how going to far with the idea that everyone should be able to afford a home can cause all sorts of issues. People buying homes they cannot realistically afford shouldnt happen. Proper downpayments should be required like they always used to be back 20+ years ago. Aspects of the government like Fannie and Freddie scare the heck out of me, due to the sheer amount of money we are talking about there that the government would have to bail out if they were to inevitably fail.
Personal Debt and Credit in general needs to be curtailed a bit. The way I view the economic situation of our country, and honestly the world as a whole, is that much of the growth we have seen over the last 20 years has been thanks in large part to the huge ramp up in the availability of credit, and the mounting debt in general that this has caused. Eventually that bubble is going to burst, and when that time comes, there will be nothing the government will be able to do about it, because they will have allready spent so much money, and be so far in debt, that their ability to do what they did in late 2008-early 2009 will be gone, or reduced to a level that wont even put a dent in things.
Sorry that I went off on a tangent, its just bothers me when I can see what needs to be done, and what could be done or attempted to be done to potentially deal with a lot of the issues the country faces financially. My ideas above? Very likely far from perfect, but better to look into than sitting back and doing nothing like our current government (republican/democrat/whoever else) is currently doing. I look into the future and what I see isnt good. I continue to wonder what my future what my potential retirement would even begin to look like. I wonder whether our country will even still be here in 30-40 years, or whether it will look anything like it does now anyway.
Action needs to be taken, the hard choices need to be made, and the long/hard process of going through the entire budget to deal with these many issues, needs to be done. Whether our current government, and current republicans/democrats/independents/etc that make it up can/will actually deal with those things, is another question entirely however.
Personally the Republican plan seems to be the more reasonable of the two. Closing tax loopholes will generate income and reforming social nets will save money. The democrat plan of sticking it to the rich has already been shown to not work over and over again, see Millionaires Tax (http://taxfoundation.org/article/trend-1-millionaires-taxes) for example. I got a real kick out of watching MSNBC today where a Democrat senator went on a long speal about how the evil Republicans wont compromise then went on to say "I've said it from the beginning NO deal is better then a bad deal". He then goes on to confirm my suspicion that a "bad deal" is one in which the Democrats concede anything.
Joande saying that the Republicans are the only people that make sense and that Democrats are the evil ones ruining this country?! No way!
Your red tinted glasses are keeping you from seeing compromise where it exists. Remember that time Obama vetoed his own bill that he proposed in an attempt to prove that Republicans don't compromise but actually got enough votes to pass?
Oh wait, that was McConnell and a filibuster. Oops!
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Asking people to remove quotes in their signatures is tyranny! If I can't say something just because someone's feelings are hurt then no one would ever be able to say anything! Political correctness is stupid.
Jeff - on the "sacking" of Medicare that's actually savings from fraud like The Scooter Store being stopped it was expenses that were ending anyhow. Nothing benefitwise was being truly rreduced. And as I stated (although they do predate the fix I believe) Medicare didn't have much financial woe, Medicaid absolutely does. (Even sans Obamacare - and note the Medicaid Obamacare provisions are 2016 anyhow - and ryans Plan suggested the same fix and application of savings FIRST.)
We are in this mess because people think that government should do every thing in the book and pay for it.
Government should give food to people.
Government should pay for their housing
Government should pay living wages
Government should supply healthcare
If we dont expect the government to do these things, we have to accept the other side of the situation if they dont. We will have a huge portion of people die of starvation, lack of medical treatment, and be homeless. We cant have our cake and eat it too.
If you cut the welfare budget and people start dying more, what are you going to say to those that scream we are being inhumane? Those who ask why we have such a large portion of our population homeless or starving? Taking away such entitlements could back fire in such ways you have not thought about.
I would suggest that wasteful spending in any aspect of government, including those who get the money who may not really need it (ie: could get a job but arent, or other aspects where the system is being abused) should be a significant priority to help bring the costs of these programs down as much as possible. Those that NEED it, should get it, Ive no problem with that. I would prefer to see the abuses and waste in any part of the government gone through and dealt with. Whether social programs, or defense, or anything else. Something also needs to be done about the pension systems in the country. IMHO guaranteed retirement income from the government (outside of SS of course, shouldnt exist), everyone should end up on a 401k or similar program, where they can put money in tax free, potentially have it matched by the organization, and then have that to work with when they retire in addition to their SS benefits.
Eventually when many of these bloated pensions (many of them government jobs, some not of course), come due, and many all at once over the next 10 years, I can forsee significant budget holes being blown into many states and in our own federal budget. (Also, see the post office as a problematic example of this). What we need is a complete overhaul of the government budget. It needs to be gone through line by line and all the waste and abuse, and special interest stuff needs to be removed, and the systems for the most bloated programs need to have some very hard decisions made for them. The biggest one in my eyes would be raising the retirement age from 65 to 70 as the first step. The defense budget needs to be gone through and cut down to a more reasonable level. At the end of the day $900 billion is rather obscene to be spending each and every year on that. Defense of the country is one of the largest duties of our federal government to do however, so while cutting should happen, it would still need to be left with enough to ensure our safety as a nation. SS/Medicare would both benefit from the retirement age being raised, and from significant reforms to raise long-term solvency, and to cut costs while not significantly altering current payouts. Real cutting of health care COSTS needs to happen. Originally Obamacare was supposed to make healthcare more affordable, in the end, it didnt lower the costs, it maybe tempered the increases (a little), and it made heathcare available to even more of the population (a good thing). What we need is greater competition within the healthcare industry, and through that a way to allow greater competition to cut costs.
The entire Tax code needs to be revamped, simplified, and adjusted to allow for the removal of loopholes, special deductions, and other aspects that allow people (especially the rich and big corporations) to end up paying little to no taxes, something to fix the whole "fair share" issue which raising their rates, without fixing the loopholes and deductions, doesnt do. The standard deduction would be the only deduction, and it would be raised to a higher number overall, claiming individuals on your taxes would also remain intact. From there you take your income and compare it to that number, and you pay the tiered rates like you do now, period. Yes, some people, even in the middle class, may end up paying more taxes, part of whats offsetting that is of course the larger standard deduction. The business tax setup would look at revenues vs expenses vs ending inventory/equipment value (with only one method being available to use for valuation to not allow for accounting shenanigans to get out of paying the real taxes they should owe).
Investment into the economy and into business, and into creating new technologies (And new jobs) should be encouraged, but not overly subsidized, while there shouldnt be a special tax on capital gains and dividends, there also shouldnt be some huge discount on the rates they pay from those gains. Also, some of the investment vehicles that have been created over the last 20 years need to be reigned in a bit, the fact that things like the subprime mortgage crisis was even allowed to happen is a testament to how going to far with the idea that everyone should be able to afford a home can cause all sorts of issues. People buying homes they cannot realistically afford shouldnt happen. Proper downpayments should be required like they always used to be back 20+ years ago. Aspects of the government like Fannie and Freddie scare the heck out of me, due to the sheer amount of money we are talking about there that the government would have to bail out if they were to inevitably fail.
Personal Debt and Credit in general needs to be curtailed a bit. The way I view the economic situation of our country, and honestly the world as a whole, is that much of the growth we have seen over the last 20 years has been thanks in large part to the huge ramp up in the availability of credit, and the mounting debt in general that this has caused. Eventually that bubble is going to burst, and when that time comes, there will be nothing the government will be able to do about it, because they will have allready spent so much money, and be so far in debt, that their ability to do what they did in late 2008-early 2009 will be gone, or reduced to a level that wont even put a dent in things.
Sorry that I went off on a tangent, its just bothers me when I can see what needs to be done, and what could be done or attempted to be done to potentially deal with a lot of the issues the country faces financially. My ideas above? Very likely far from perfect, but better to look into than sitting back and doing nothing like our current government (republican/democrat/whoever else) is currently doing. I look into the future and what I see isnt good. I continue to wonder what my future what my potential retirement would even begin to look like. I wonder whether our country will even still be here in 30-40 years, or whether it will look anything like it does now anyway.
Action needs to be taken, the hard choices need to be made, and the long/hard process of going through the entire budget to deal with these many issues, needs to be done. Whether our current government, and current republicans/democrats/independents/etc that make it up can/will actually deal with those things, is another question entirely however.
What I am trying to say is, if we do cut from these entitlement programs and the money isnt there for people for medicare and food and shelter, there is a part of the country that is going to be screaming the government is being inhumane. Its a lose, lose situation the country is in. It comes down to whats more important, the country or the people.
I really dont care which way we go, just stop doing it half assed. commit to a strategy and go with it. This changing direction at the slightest of opposition is why we are where we are now.
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I will give credit to Obama for actually bringing some compromise to the floor. It is not enough and he should take some advice from Republicans and cut some damn spending. Though the republicans need to wake up and smell the math that raising taxes a little doesn't wreck the economy and we need revenue and fast.
We have too many politicians in Washington. We need problem solvers not politicians and I can only hope that in two years people realize this and have some better congressional candidates.
I hold this totally on congress. Despite what a few leading Republican congressmen have said it is NOT the presidents job to make laws. That is expressed clearly in the constitution that the law making ability is congressional only. He has some checks and balances powers to veto such laws. But as far as finding a solution it rests on the men and women of the congress. Though this of course doesn't exempt Obama from responsibilities in law making but it is NOT his job to do it. The congress is the ones that need to get their arses in gear. Obama has enough problems but saying he is the root of these problems is like saying the supreme court is responsible for the war in Iraq.
They did.
They raised taxes on those making 1m dollars or more. they came up with 1 trillion dollars in new revenue.
they also cut 1 trillion in government spending.
the difference is that obama has 1.4 trillion dollars in new taxes where the extra 400b is coming from who knows.
all i can find is that he has offered about 400b in cuts.
then he wants new spending of about 60b dollars or so.
they gave him what he wanted, but it isn't his plan so instead of being a leader he acts like a child crying that he didn't get what he wanted.
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Because the President had to veto his own bill because it was a pump fake that wasn't ever meant to actually cause compromise, just meant to be able to say "look! They aren't compromising" when it failed to pass, but then accidentally really did get the votes necessary to pass because the other side was willing to compromise on it.
Oh wait, that was Mitch McConnell trying to play partisan politics and failing miserably and having to resort to filibustering his own bill.
So he cut 340 billion in cuts. You can say a simplyfing version that makes things easier. Just say he cut 340 billion. I honestly am dissapointed and there should be more cuts than that. Probably about 600 billion would be realistic. A trillion would be nice but not really realistic.
The new revenue also took away loopholes that affect those across the board almost. So the taxes go up on ultra wealthy (millionairs littearlly) but also on those on the lower levels. Obama rejected the idea because it means that people making 50k will be paying for the continued tax break of those making 900k.
You can't say that republicans filibusted hundreds of bills and hide behind the "oh its just because they were bad bills that didn't agree with their politics" but then when Obama has a legitimate reason to veto something you call him a child stamping his feet?
The bill was supposed to be a compromise but it swung obvsiouly in the republican direction. ITs a good step but they need to come over a little more.
How about something like this.
Increase tax rate on those making 500k or more a year. Then close loopholes and decutions exactly as listed before but everyone making under 150k a year are exempt from those deductions being removed.
That sounds like a good bipartisan tax plan full of compromise. Then of course I wouldn't begin to say I know enough about the budget to comment on what should be cut but if they have 400B cut from social programs and 200 billion cut from defense spending then we could have a deal.
Thats 600Billion in cuts and more than a trillion in revenue. Then congress should get to work on making programs (including the military) run more efficently without actually gutting the programs. then we could get another half trillion dollars worth of savings from actions like that.
When the economy recovers more then the need for these social programs will drop. Food stamps will be easier to maintain and welfare/unemployment paychecks will be less needed. Thats a great way to cut entitlment spending is by fixing the economy. Thats a republican idea that I support. Though I don't support gutting all the programs and somehow that will lead to a healthy economy.
This is touted on both sides as a "middle class" deduction, but the vast majority of people don't even get this deduction because they either rent or take the standard deduction.
It mostly helps wealthier people. Getting rid of it would only slow home ownership slightly. It would raise tons of revenue, and yet its a sacred cow.
This isn't as big of a deal as people think just like you said.
In order to itemize your taxes you must be able to get over that 11k deduction mark of the standard deduction.
The only people that benefit from itemization are people which big mortages on their homes.
I know every year me and the wife try to itemize our taxes and we always fall short.
our morgage interest just isn't large enough nor do we have the other deductions needed.
your right most people take the standard deduction.
No he doesn't have a reason. they gave him everything he wanted and he is still crying about it. The man isn't a leader and he isn't acting like one.
Reagan, Clinton, Bush Sr, even Bush Jr. were better leaders than obama. why? because they were still able to accomplish everything they wanted with split congresses.
There were able to get both sides or opposing sides to the table and get it worked out. obama? hell no. he just whines and cry's that he can't have his way.
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You ever step back and think the way those 'other' leaders compromised to the congress because it was a split congress is why we are where we are at in the first place? If Obama follows the norm the others did to get us here, we wont get any better, but stagnate even more. Sounds like a bad plan.
I guess you missed that thing called the cold war which reagan helped end i no small part due to all that massive military spending.
Not really. Deregulation had been going on for a while. what clinton did was more deregulation than what reagan had done.
all of which was needed to get the economy going again.
Which one? the first recession was caused by the .com bust of the 90's. The second recession was caused by the carter and made worse by the clinton administrations.
Bush attempted to stop the bad loans but congress did nothing. Not only that it was opposed by democrats to do anything. more so chris dodd and barney frank.
Not sure what history you are refering to because well you are misinformed nor whatever books you are studing are highly innaccurate.
Which has factually been shown to do nothing to solve the debt problem. This is simply blowing smoke and people are going nuts over thinking that it will solve the problem.
it won't. it will projected run the government for 4 months.
big deal.
Well when you are spending 1.5 trillion dollars on those three programs then something needs to be done about them. their last bill would raise taxes on those making 1m or more.
so that is not true.
Democrats have offered 0 in cuts and have done nothing to stop the bleeding that continues. in fact in their new bill they have 60b dollars in new spending that obama wants.
as for the rest of your comments nothing but liberal talking points that have no more truth to them then than they do now.
reforming SS, medicare, and medicaid that they function properly without the constant waste and ballooning costs will not kill people.
this is a pack of lies straight from the liberal hand book.
The fact is the federal government can no longer support these program the way they are setup. there is simply not enough working people or businesses to continue these program the way that they are.
without some type of reform we are going to go the way of greece.
our national debt now exceeds what we produce. IE the national debt is greater than our GDP.
the federal government brings in 2.0-2.5 trillion dollars a year. we are spending over 3 trillion dollars a year.
SS, medicare and medicaid account for 1.5-1.6 trillion dollars of that. the military including overseas operations accounts for about 687b dollars.
the fact is we do not have a revenue issue we have a spending issue and most of that coming from these legacy programs that have ballooned out of control.
Sure you can raise taxes but that is not going to stop the problem.
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I still don't see any legitmate reasons for him to pass it. I mean they posted the bill as a compromise but it really....really wasn't. If it were truely in the middle then it would have worked. In all actuality the plan was that the plan B was going to be brought up and then they would work on it and devise a way to compromise more on the bill. They would make ammendments and try to get it passed by both parts of congress. Its like going to a pawn shop and asking for more than you know you will get for the item you are trying to sell. Then you haggle with each other till you find something in the middle.
HOWEVER the republicans can't even pass their own bill. I don't even remotly see how it is Obama's fault that the plan B failed. It didn't even get to the point where the HOUSE could vote on it much less senate approval. So how you blame the Republicans inability to formulate a realistic and actually bi-partisan plan really doesn't make any sense. Seriously. Watch something other than Fox news. I usually have a great respect for you on these forums even though we are usually on opposite sides. You normally bring a well rounded and infromative position to your arguments. However this time your doing nothing but making false and ingorant statments about the president.
I dont feel it would be a good idea to go over the cliff, though we would likely then go from the cliff to the debt ceiling then and simply be in the same position all over again (and no, even if the government shut down due to hitting the debt ceiling we wouldnt suddenly default on our debt, we have plenty of tax income coming in to pay the debt payments (which are a rather small portion of the overall budget), and pay a decent amount of the other main programs the government would need to cover.)) Certainly not a perfect situation, and something that should be avoided as well, but would likely be the inevitable next stage in the fiscal negotiations should we fail to come up with an agreement and end up going over the cliff in a few days.
What also frustrates me, when I see the representatives from either side come onto CNBC to discuss the issue, I hear so many talking points (especially from the democrat side that come on the show) and a significant amount of interruption and talking over the republican representatives while they are trying to refute the other side and pointing out where the democrat rep (in this case) is incorrect or is isnt telling the whole truth. The republicans do some of this as well, but Ive seen far more from the democrats that come on the show, and to me, its just sad.
At some point these people need to be willing to put politics aside and do whats needed for the country. Honestly the political one-upsmanship is really starting to tick me off of late. Part of the problem though is just how divided the country is on much of these issues. We've continued to see significant swings in the support of the parties and what they stand for over the last 4 years. Swung democrat in 2008, swung republican rather strongly in 2010, and now its swung back towards the middle. Obama may have won, but he didnt win by much, the house is still rather strongly controlled by the republicans, and the senate is still split, but with a continued democrat majority.
Its still possible we could come out with a bill that could pass in the house and senate, (Im ignoring the attempt by the republicans at political gamesmanship in their attempt to put that one bill to a vote which never ended up happenning) since both sides were actually getting rather close prior to the christmas holiday. Apparently the majority/minority leaders from the house and senate and the speaker of the house are scheduled to meet with obama later today to try to see about hashing something out before time runs out. So, I suppose, here's hoping.
Regardless, in the end its going to be a long and hard road to work towards the changes neccessary to bring the government budget back in order, and something that will have to be taken care of, else we see our debt rise to $20 trillion or higher by the next election and the significant issues that could lead to, especially long-term.
Nothing will happen though unless both sides are willing to put politics aside and yes, both sides are significantly to blame for the current situation, and agree to put the long-term future of the country, and the long-term futures of the citizens of our country first.
This is why I don't buy into this "fiscal cliff" hype. For one thing, this entire thing was brought about by Congress and Obama kicking the can down the road back in August 2011 when the Budget Control Act was passed. They have nobody but themselves to blame for creating this fiscal cliff in the first place. For another, this current fiscal cliff that we have is basically a charade compared to what is to come. Virtually nobody in the mainstream media is talking about the REAL fiscal cliff, and that is a full-blown currency crisis along with a sovereign debt crisis that can't be solved by kicking the can down the road. What's happening right now is similar to the standoff that we had in late July/August last year; an 11th-hour deal was signed to avert the debt crisis. That's why I think there will be something that happens before 2013. Our government will continue to kick the can down the road because nobody has the guts to immediately sort out our fiscal woes. Eventually though, kicking the can down the road will be impossible when we meet up with that can and realize it's monstrous and unable to be kicked any longer.
Hey, if I thought we had even the smallest chance of actually being able to pass such a plan to bring the budget back into balance within a year, then Id be all over that. The cuts and tax adjustments would be painful, for everyone, but neccessary. The problem is, there are so few in government that would actually want to take such a sudden and drastic step to deal with those issues, that its really not much of a possibilitiy of something to ever happen. The realities of the current setup are such that continual incremental adjustments to deal with things are probably the best we are going to get in the near term, and with any luck, with enough of those adjusments over time, we'll get back to some healthier and sustainable numbers. The problem inevitably is that no one in government wants to be the ones to bring on the "pain" of dealing with the the cuts/revenue increases it would take to balance the budget. It would very likely end up resulting in political suicide, because, unfortunately, people are selfish, and dont want to have to be the generation to take the pain needed to be able to make things sustainable for the long-term. Eventually though, barring something significantly changing, the pain will come to us, whether we like it or not, whether thats 4 years from now, or 10, it will happen, and without significant changes to our current government budgets, nothing will stop it from happenning.
so uncontrolled government spending is better?
we wouldn't be in this mess to begin with had people used austerity measures instead of letting the budget go unaccountable.
We are spending way to much money. in fact we are spending 1.2 trillion dollars to much.
The government has been brining in 2-2.4 trillion dollars in tax revenue.
yet when your social programs eat 1.5 trillion of that you don't have much left over.
Where do you get your information from? i have to question the source at this point because this is just so far out there it isn't even funny.
We are in this mess because people think that government should do every thing in the book and pay for it.
Government should give food to people.
Government should pay for their housing
Government should pay living wages
Government should supply healthcare
Government government government.
The list keeps going. Not sure but what you don't realize this requires money and a lot of money. That money has to come from somewhere and that somewhere are working american's and wealthy americans.
Yet government needs to spend more and more and more and more. someone has to pay for it. It isn't free. The problem is we are borrowing money to pay bills. that is the quickest way to financial ruin and we are headed there in a land slide.
Heck we are borrowing money to pay on the interest on the money that we borrowed.
you do realize that this is just a receipe for disaster right? That it cannot continue and things have to be done to fix it?
Social programs have to be reformed.
Tax system has to be reformed.
government agencies that are no longer needed need to be gone.
government programs that don't work need to go.
government spending has increased over 40% in just a 10 year period. it needs to be cut back.
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What are your thoughts on hacking into the bloated military budget? I believe it was around $1,200,000,000,000 last year. That seems like a good place to make some cuts.
As a wise man once said:
I mean I agree that unnecessary programs need to go, but we can also put a huge dent in the deficit by cutting defense spending.
The longer we wait to deal with the Budget Deficit, especially when its over a trillion dollars per year and will continue to be that large for at least the next 4 years based upon projections unless something changes, then the harder its going to be to be able to deal with the sheer amount of debt our country has accumulated. The sooner we deal with these issues, the sooner we can moving forward without having to worry about MUCH LARGER issues in the future.
This is the fault of both democrats and republicans, the sooner EVERYONE realizes this, the sooner we may be able to try to figure out a way to fix all this. Cuts ARE neccessary, and will continue to be neccessary. There is no possible way to tax enough to be able to pay for the amount the government currently is spending, taxes are a piece of it, but cannot and is not possible to be the only piece. To those who think that our country having over 16 trillion in debt now, and over 20 trillion in debt 4 years from now is okay... YOU ARE WRONG. Debt Downgrades, higher borrowing costs, and the potential to be removed as the reserve currency, as well as just a general devaluation of our currency, is only going to lead to even more pain than anything currently being suggested to try to avoid that.
EDIT: As for the defense budget. It was actually $846 billion including money for national defense w/overseas operations and veterans services/benefits. SS was right behind that at about $828 billion, and the Largest was Medicare/Medicaid at: $870 billion. All those numbers included both mandatory and discretionary spending, and those are the three largest categorical expenses for our government this year. Some crazy numbers to be sure. Everything would need to be cut some regardless if we are going to come up with the amount of cuts neccessary to be able to bring the budget back in balance.
Medicaid is another ball of wax however - but last numbers I see for it are under $200bish.
Also note that I believe (although not in a position to check ATM) that DHS which is ostensibly defense related isn't generally considered part of the 846 figure.
Re: People misusing the term Vanilla to describe a flying, unleash (sometimes trample) critter.
You are correct, when DHS (Department of Homeland Security) is added in, its about $900 billion per year. I checked the information for the medicare/medicaid category, and it lists the total category cost at $870 billion, with medicare specifically at approx $500 billion. The rest would be medicaid or other Health and Human Services costs, of which I imagine medicaid is likely the largest.
I believe (though I cannot be 100% as of yet), that the current setup has obamacare taking a significant amount out of medicare to have it moved into medicaid to help pay for the obamacare changes/costs.
Thats another aspect that bothers me about the actual cuts. Is oftentimes you hear people in government talk about how they have made cuts, only to fail to mention that the money from those cuts were inevitably used to pay for another new or expanded aspect of government, so there was actually no net savings with the cutting being done. Cutting is only real cutting if the savings are used to offset the deficit, not to pay for something new.
To use a term I heard a number of years ago. There seems to be a lot of "Fuzzy Math" going around these days within all of these talks about cutting and the fiscal cliff. The more I delve into some of the proposals being made, the more Im beginning to realize that the amount of cutting being proposed isnt even a fraction of what is being said, which is unfortunate and disingenuous in my eyes.
If you cut the welfare budget and people start dying more, what are you going to say to those that scream we are being inhumane? Those who ask why we have such a large portion of our population homeless or starving? Taking away such entitlements could back fire in such ways you have not thought about.
I would suggest that wasteful spending in any aspect of government, including those who get the money who may not really need it (ie: could get a job but arent, or other aspects where the system is being abused) should be a significant priority to help bring the costs of these programs down as much as possible. Those that NEED it, should get it, Ive no problem with that. I would prefer to see the abuses and waste in any part of the government gone through and dealt with. Whether social programs, or defense, or anything else. Something also needs to be done about the pension systems in the country. IMHO guaranteed retirement income from the government (outside of SS of course, shouldnt exist), everyone should end up on a 401k or similar program, where they can put money in tax free, potentially have it matched by the organization, and then have that to work with when they retire in addition to their SS benefits.
Eventually when many of these bloated pensions (many of them government jobs, some not of course), come due, and many all at once over the next 10 years, I can forsee significant budget holes being blown into many states and in our own federal budget. (Also, see the post office as a problematic example of this). What we need is a complete overhaul of the government budget. It needs to be gone through line by line and all the waste and abuse, and special interest stuff needs to be removed, and the systems for the most bloated programs need to have some very hard decisions made for them. The biggest one in my eyes would be raising the retirement age from 65 to 70 as the first step. The defense budget needs to be gone through and cut down to a more reasonable level. At the end of the day $900 billion is rather obscene to be spending each and every year on that. Defense of the country is one of the largest duties of our federal government to do however, so while cutting should happen, it would still need to be left with enough to ensure our safety as a nation. SS/Medicare would both benefit from the retirement age being raised, and from significant reforms to raise long-term solvency, and to cut costs while not significantly altering current payouts. Real cutting of health care COSTS needs to happen. Originally Obamacare was supposed to make healthcare more affordable, in the end, it didnt lower the costs, it maybe tempered the increases (a little), and it made heathcare available to even more of the population (a good thing). What we need is greater competition within the healthcare industry, and through that a way to allow greater competition to cut costs.
The entire Tax code needs to be revamped, simplified, and adjusted to allow for the removal of loopholes, special deductions, and other aspects that allow people (especially the rich and big corporations) to end up paying little to no taxes, something to fix the whole "fair share" issue which raising their rates, without fixing the loopholes and deductions, doesnt do. The standard deduction would be the only deduction, and it would be raised to a higher number overall, claiming individuals on your taxes would also remain intact. From there you take your income and compare it to that number, and you pay the tiered rates like you do now, period. Yes, some people, even in the middle class, may end up paying more taxes, part of whats offsetting that is of course the larger standard deduction. The business tax setup would look at revenues vs expenses vs ending inventory/equipment value (with only one method being available to use for valuation to not allow for accounting shenanigans to get out of paying the real taxes they should owe).
Investment into the economy and into business, and into creating new technologies (And new jobs) should be encouraged, but not overly subsidized, while there shouldnt be a special tax on capital gains and dividends, there also shouldnt be some huge discount on the rates they pay from those gains. Also, some of the investment vehicles that have been created over the last 20 years need to be reigned in a bit, the fact that things like the subprime mortgage crisis was even allowed to happen is a testament to how going to far with the idea that everyone should be able to afford a home can cause all sorts of issues. People buying homes they cannot realistically afford shouldnt happen. Proper downpayments should be required like they always used to be back 20+ years ago. Aspects of the government like Fannie and Freddie scare the heck out of me, due to the sheer amount of money we are talking about there that the government would have to bail out if they were to inevitably fail.
Personal Debt and Credit in general needs to be curtailed a bit. The way I view the economic situation of our country, and honestly the world as a whole, is that much of the growth we have seen over the last 20 years has been thanks in large part to the huge ramp up in the availability of credit, and the mounting debt in general that this has caused. Eventually that bubble is going to burst, and when that time comes, there will be nothing the government will be able to do about it, because they will have allready spent so much money, and be so far in debt, that their ability to do what they did in late 2008-early 2009 will be gone, or reduced to a level that wont even put a dent in things.
Sorry that I went off on a tangent, its just bothers me when I can see what needs to be done, and what could be done or attempted to be done to potentially deal with a lot of the issues the country faces financially. My ideas above? Very likely far from perfect, but better to look into than sitting back and doing nothing like our current government (republican/democrat/whoever else) is currently doing. I look into the future and what I see isnt good. I continue to wonder what my future what my potential retirement would even begin to look like. I wonder whether our country will even still be here in 30-40 years, or whether it will look anything like it does now anyway.
Action needs to be taken, the hard choices need to be made, and the long/hard process of going through the entire budget to deal with these many issues, needs to be done. Whether our current government, and current republicans/democrats/independents/etc that make it up can/will actually deal with those things, is another question entirely however.
Your red tinted glasses are keeping you from seeing compromise where it exists. Remember that time Obama vetoed his own bill that he proposed in an attempt to prove that Republicans don't compromise but actually got enough votes to pass?
Oh wait, that was McConnell and a filibuster. Oops!
Re: People misusing the term Vanilla to describe a flying, unleash (sometimes trample) critter.
What I am trying to say is, if we do cut from these entitlement programs and the money isnt there for people for medicare and food and shelter, there is a part of the country that is going to be screaming the government is being inhumane. Its a lose, lose situation the country is in. It comes down to whats more important, the country or the people.
I really dont care which way we go, just stop doing it half assed. commit to a strategy and go with it. This changing direction at the slightest of opposition is why we are where we are now.