I've actually put a good bit of thought into this one before. I'm an Eagle Scout and I absolutely loved Scouting; I enjoyed it and I believe it did a number of good things for me and made me a better person in a number of ways. I'm also staunchly atheist and socially very progressive, so their policies disappoint me greatly. As an additional complication, I was a Christian when I was a member, so I never had to deal with the issue of lying or concealing my true beliefs (as the Scout Oath, which is recited at he beginning of every meeting, involves promising to do your duty to God). At the end of the day, I believe the benefits of participating are sufficient that I would still want my son to participate, but I struggle with the idea of actively encouraging him to lie.
I was a boy scout and I was Im an atheist. My scout leaders knew it and respected it and in return respected their beliefs and participated in there prayers and stuff when they did them out of respect. I think its a good organization it thought me alot about survival if necessary in the wilderness. I know my scout leaders acceptance of my athiest isnt is probably a violation of the rules or whatever but hey they're a private organization and therefor can discriminate all they want.
There was a south park episode about this very subject.
I was a boyscout and it was a great experience for me growing up. I am also Christian. I wasn't aware there was an anti-gay policy with Boy Scouts. So that's disappointing to me.
My family immigrated to Canada from Hong Kong when I was 2 years old. My parents had a strong disconnect with Canadian culture. The Boy Scout organization I was a part of was predominantly white and held at my church. I never went camping, fishing, canoeing with my parents so Boy Scouts was really good at introducing that to me.
After some thought and consideration.
Yes I would let my child join boy scouts.
Politics and opinion exists all that you want. From what I recall from my time, I can't recall experiencing discrimination, I remember being motivated and it being character building.
I think all this negative nonsense isn't anything I was exposed to and I don't think the kids are now. Leave the adults to criticize and debate and let the kids stick to the basics of learning, survival, character building, learning to help others, being prepared and working with others.
I am also an Eagle Scout and was quite anti-religion while in High School (the last few years of boy scouts). But that didnt stop me from reading scripture for Church when my troop would do scout Sunday. One Sunday a year we would lead the church service and do everything but the sermon. Why did we do this? Because the church let us have several rooms in the basement for our meetings and supply storage. I saw it as a sort of thank you payment not as having religion forced on me.
Really religion is glazed over at most in most troops as far as I know. I think the only time it really came up was saying Grace at larger summer camps, and when we would do trips with the Church Youth group. Otherwise we were more worried about lighting fires and building catapults.
Now I will admit I was in a pretty relaxed troop. We never traveled in uniform and didnt own the shorts or socks that I saw some groups trouncing around in at camps. The main thing is yes let your kids join Boy Scouts, but be active and learn what that troop is like. If they are a bit too fire and brimstone then find another troop if you can.
"prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law."
They're an organization built on instilling values, and I don't agree with their values. Therefore I'm not going to have my child join that organization.
Vision statement:
"The Boy Scouts of America will prepare every ELIGIBLE youth in America to become a responsible, participating citizen and leader who is guided by the Scout Oath and Law."
Sorry, but I want no part of such an organization.
The religion issue is pretty much a non-issue. It's jsut like any other pseudo religious organization, anti-religious people won't want their kids to go to it. Agnostics/atheist who aren't anti-religious wouldn't care one way or the other, and religious people would be for it.
(For the record BSA is not affiliated with the Christian church. It has religious emblems for several faiths.)
Where the issue comes in is the "gay scouts/scout leaders" issue. The fact of the matter is BSA has taken the stance that it considers the homosexual lifestyle to be immoral. If you agree with that position you would have no issues sending your kids there. If you disagree with that position you would.
I don't see how its different than any other group whose explicit stated purpose is to teach moral and ethical values...
Politics and opinion exists all that you want. From what I recall from my time, I can't recall experiencing discrimination, I remember being motivated and it being character building.
I think all this negative nonsense isn't anything I was exposed to and I don't think the kids are now. Leave the adults to criticize and debate and let the kids stick to the basics of learning, survival, character building, learning to help others, being prepared and working with others.
I think first and foremost, you are from canada and the BSC are quite a different group than then BSA.
Oh boy are we going to call every person who does not worship gays and lesbians the moniker of bigot now.
Go away atheist let the Christians be friends with who they want to. Last time I heard the American constitution had a few things to say about the right to association.
Oh boy are we going to call every person who does not worship gays and lesbians the moniker of bigot now.
Well actually we are going to put the label "bigot" on anybody who sarcastically refers to "standing up for the rights of gays and lesbians" as "WORSHIPPING them".
Go away atheist
Go away WHERE? This is a poll.
You know, young people who see bigoted anti-gay behavior from Christians, use own common sense, and conclude on their own that Christians in general are bigoted. Christians who discriminate against gay people, give Christianity a bad name.
let the Christians be friends with who they want to. Last time I heard the American constitution had a few things to say about the right to association.
I'm Christian, and I choose not to associate with the BSA.
Nobody has called for the BSA to be banned here, so I don't know why you have your diapers in a bunch. The issue is whether we're cool with associating with an organization that discriminates against gay people.
With the kind of horrible sins being committed in the world, and the sins we're ALL committing out of greed, laziness, fear, etc... REALLY now... sexual orientation is the trait we need to single out for judgment as clearly wrong?
(I'm not saying its wrong or right in God's eyes. I don't think it's wrong in God's eyes. I'm saying that if you're a person who believes its wrong, HOW wrong can it be?)
Given that I'm an atheist and wouldn't be allowed to participate in the events, it seems unlikely I would approve. On top of that, what if my son were born gay? How would that affect him? I'd rather he not be kicked out or denied Eagle Scout because he was gay or an atheist.
At the heart of the matter, I don't know much about BSA. I'd never heard a bad thing about them until the anti-gay issue came up. But that's really enough for me. I know of at least one secular camp, so that's where I'd probably send my son if he wasn't into sports.
Our belief is not a belief. Our principles are not a faith. We do not rely solely upon science and reason, because these are necessary rather than sufficient factors, but we distrust anything that contradicts science or outrages reason. We may differ on many things, but what we respect is free inquiry, openmindedness, and the pursuit of ideas for their own sake.
― Christopher Hitchens, God Is Not Great
Unfortunately this seems to be a case of a few making the whole look bad. I can tell you that when I was in my troop there was no emphasis on religion and someone being gay wouldnt have been an issue. At least not with the majority of the members. It's not like there is a check box when you sign up for summer camp that asks whether or not you are gay and what religion you practice that you would have to lie to.
When I was in scouts it was about guys getting together to go camping, build fires, and do outdoorsy stuff. Also almost everyone's parents were well involved and everyone's dad came on trips at least once or twice while I was in it, also a few moms came along on a few camp outs.
I am sure that there are cases where if a troop found out someone was gay they would kick them out but that would be true regardless of the official stance of the BSA. Some people are jerks and nobody is going to want to stay in a group full of jerks even if you are allowed to be there. If they are not jerks on the other hand they arent going to care what religion, orientation, or race the members are. I would consider it to be similar to church in the way that I am sure many churches would shun members out if they were found out to be gay but that doesnt mean all churches would, and many churches are quite accepting.
If you were in boy scouts with no emphasis on religion, then you are going directly against what the BSA requires from its members. Athiest and agnostic scouts are notallowed to even be boy scouts according to the BSA, homosexuality is a step worse than don't ask don't tell (they actually say being homosexual goes against scout law - "a scout is trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent"), and the federal government has passed multiple laws specifically allowing the BSA special privledges with the Dept of Defense and public schools.
While that may be true that doesnt mean troops follow it. That's like a CEO saying that nobody will check facebook on work time and then not putting any filters in place to actually stop or catch people from checking facebook. Some manager will be cool with the occasional break and some managers will flip off the deep end and report you. In the same way the BSA official stance may be no atheists and no gays however if you find a troop that isnt so douchee then you wont have any issues.
Other than saying the pledge of allegiance or the scout oath/law there isnt a single time I can remember religion even being discussed (excluding the scout led church day that I described in an earlier post). It was a non-issue. In fact while I was in scouts I was staunchly atheist and as I have said I obtained my Eagle Scout. The interview I went through to obtain my Eagle Scout ranking had no mention of my religious or sexual preferences.
Take it for what it really is. Boy Scouts isnt some sort of religious gay bashing club. It's about teaching boys about teamwork, leadership, self sufficiency, and having fun both indoors and outdoors.
Take it for what it really is. Boy Scouts isnt some sort of religious gay bashing club. It's about teaching boys about teamwork, leadership, self sufficiency, and having fun both indoors and outdoors.
Ideally that's all it would be about, but based on what I've read and heard from others, it seems that your mileage may vary as far as anti-gay and anti-atheist troops go.
Ultimately, one need not even take the risk that there will be sponsored gay or atheist bashing, as there are other reputable programs that teach the same skills, and in my opinion do a better job of it.
Possibly, I suppose one would probably want to carefully consider the area they are in. I was in rural southern MN and kids in my HS were openly gay without issue. Someone in hickville USA would probably find it to be much harder to find an accepting troop.
Unfortunately this seems to be a case of a few making the whole look bad. I can tell you that when I was in my troop there was no emphasis on religion and someone being gay wouldnt have been an issue. At least not with the majority of the members. It's not like there is a check box when you sign up for summer camp that asks whether or not you are gay and what religion you practice that you would have to lie to.
Sort of. The problem is that the 'few' making the BSA look bad are the leadership. If there were some deep south Boy Scout troops making the same decisions on their own and the BSA leadership kept to a policy that they leave religious issues to the individual troops, that would be fine, and I'd just want to be sure of the troop my kid was joining before signing him up. But where it's the leadership saying it, a local troop would have to actually defy the rules and regulations under which they're supposed to operate to knowingly place a gay or atheist in a position of leadership. The fact that some troops might be willing to take that on (though I haven't heard of any doing it) doesn't redeem the organization.
And the fact that they don't ask doesn't make it moral. Don't ask don't tell was a horrible policy for the military and is a horrible one for the BSA.
I can't see a large difference in not supporting the BSA for their Atheist policies and not supporting Christian charities. The BSA is essentially a charitable organization, at least on the lower level; no one gets pay, many youth they help are of a lower socioeconomic class, etc. While not all their policies are perceived as good by you, I can't see how you perceive them so negatively.
Also, not putting your child in a religious organization because you disagree with their beliefs seems to be choosing your child's religion for them. I doubt many atheists are keen on the idea of parents forcing their children to go to church, yet many of you seem to be basing your decisions using the same concept.
The molestation issue is a thing of the past and is not really relevant in modern scouting. I assure you, the BSA takes very serious steps to make it that way.
All of that said, the sexual orientation discrimination is rather prejudiced and I would agree with many of you that is a glaring fault.
This is said as both an Eagle scout and as someone who isn't particularly religious one way or the other. I would probably say I'm Atheist but I'm officially becoming Eagle today and that would be awkward.
The thing is it isnt even dont ask dont tell. A scout or parent will more than likely never see anyone outside their troop in any kind of power in the BSA. I would imagine that many troop leaders would have no issue having openly gay scouts in their troop especially since chances are the boy would have been in scouts well before he knew his sexual orientation or what religion he wanted to be. I started when I was in first grade. Those troop leaders see the kids grow up and in most cases I cant imagine them suddenly throwing the kid out just because he realizes he is gay.
Now the problem I can see is with gay parents wanting to be involved. Since leaders have to attend district meetings I am sure that would be to public of a rule violation. That is wrong and horrible and I am all for changing it. I am all for changing everything that has been brought up as a concern in this thread because at the end of the day Boy Scouts should be about teaching the boys life lessons and what religion and sexual orientation their leaders are has no bearing on that goal. I would whole heartedly support any movement or action taken to make those changes. However I would have a very hard time not having my child go to boy scouts as some kind of protest... I had a great experience in scouts and learned a lot from it and I would hate to take that away from someone.
I am an Eagle scout, along with having been a five year employee of BSA, and I agree with the BSA policy. BSA works under a system similar to "Don't ask, Don't tell", in that we are not interested in making a deal of it as long as you aren't either. I feel that anyone who is inclined to make an issue of their sexuality is unfit to hold a leadership position within BSA.
As to leadership, I personally am uncomfortable with any leader who does not currently have a child in the organization.
As to the religious side of scouting: religion is not the focus of any required scout activity. Many troops meet in facilities provided them by churches, however. Apart from a formal saying of grace, religion played no role in my scouting experience.
You can actually notify the leadership of the BSA and get someone kicked out for going against their policies. It's been done before, and I've witnessed it in my brother's scout troop for an openly gay kid (my brother is an eagle scout; I stopped scouting when I moved to England). I'm sorry you cannot admit that the policies in place are bigoted and they do take action on it, but you are simply denying the truth in the matter.
Quick question: Are girls allowed in the BSA? If not, why does this not say, "Would you let your son join the Boy Scouts?" I assume no transgenders are allowed.
I would like to point out, as a former scout, that until the Mormon Church took over the scouts there were no anti-gay/anti-atheist policies. So there's always that.
To answer the OP: Much like myself, if my child expressed an interest in joining I wouldn't say no, I wouldn't force it on him either.
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There was a south park episode about this very subject.
In short yes id let my son join the boy scouts.
After some thought and consideration.
Yes I would let my child join boy scouts.
Politics and opinion exists all that you want. From what I recall from my time, I can't recall experiencing discrimination, I remember being motivated and it being character building.
I think all this negative nonsense isn't anything I was exposed to and I don't think the kids are now. Leave the adults to criticize and debate and let the kids stick to the basics of learning, survival, character building, learning to help others, being prepared and working with others.
Really religion is glazed over at most in most troops as far as I know. I think the only time it really came up was saying Grace at larger summer camps, and when we would do trips with the Church Youth group. Otherwise we were more worried about lighting fires and building catapults.
Now I will admit I was in a pretty relaxed troop. We never traveled in uniform and didnt own the shorts or socks that I saw some groups trouncing around in at camps. The main thing is yes let your kids join Boy Scouts, but be active and learn what that troop is like. If they are a bit too fire and brimstone then find another troop if you can.
their mission statement is:
They're an organization built on instilling values, and I don't agree with their values. Therefore I'm not going to have my child join that organization.
Vision statement:
Sorry, but I want no part of such an organization.
(For the record BSA is not affiliated with the Christian church. It has religious emblems for several faiths.)
Where the issue comes in is the "gay scouts/scout leaders" issue. The fact of the matter is BSA has taken the stance that it considers the homosexual lifestyle to be immoral. If you agree with that position you would have no issues sending your kids there. If you disagree with that position you would.
I don't see how its different than any other group whose explicit stated purpose is to teach moral and ethical values...
I think first and foremost, you are from canada and the BSC are quite a different group than then BSA.
Go away atheist let the Christians be friends with who they want to. Last time I heard the American constitution had a few things to say about the right to association.
There's a small internet movement by Eagle Scouts to mail back their medals to the BSA.
Go away WHERE? This is a poll.
You know, young people who see bigoted anti-gay behavior from Christians, use own common sense, and conclude on their own that Christians in general are bigoted. Christians who discriminate against gay people, give Christianity a bad name.
I'm Christian, and I choose not to associate with the BSA.
Nobody has called for the BSA to be banned here, so I don't know why you have your diapers in a bunch. The issue is whether we're cool with associating with an organization that discriminates against gay people.
With the kind of horrible sins being committed in the world, and the sins we're ALL committing out of greed, laziness, fear, etc... REALLY now... sexual orientation is the trait we need to single out for judgment as clearly wrong?
(I'm not saying its wrong or right in God's eyes. I don't think it's wrong in God's eyes. I'm saying that if you're a person who believes its wrong, HOW wrong can it be?)
No, absolutely not.
Given that I'm an atheist and wouldn't be allowed to participate in the events, it seems unlikely I would approve. On top of that, what if my son were born gay? How would that affect him? I'd rather he not be kicked out or denied Eagle Scout because he was gay or an atheist.
At the heart of the matter, I don't know much about BSA. I'd never heard a bad thing about them until the anti-gay issue came up. But that's really enough for me. I know of at least one secular camp, so that's where I'd probably send my son if he wasn't into sports.
Spam warning.
― Christopher Hitchens, God Is Not Great
When I was in scouts it was about guys getting together to go camping, build fires, and do outdoorsy stuff. Also almost everyone's parents were well involved and everyone's dad came on trips at least once or twice while I was in it, also a few moms came along on a few camp outs.
I am sure that there are cases where if a troop found out someone was gay they would kick them out but that would be true regardless of the official stance of the BSA. Some people are jerks and nobody is going to want to stay in a group full of jerks even if you are allowed to be there. If they are not jerks on the other hand they arent going to care what religion, orientation, or race the members are. I would consider it to be similar to church in the way that I am sure many churches would shun members out if they were found out to be gay but that doesnt mean all churches would, and many churches are quite accepting.
Other than saying the pledge of allegiance or the scout oath/law there isnt a single time I can remember religion even being discussed (excluding the scout led church day that I described in an earlier post). It was a non-issue. In fact while I was in scouts I was staunchly atheist and as I have said I obtained my Eagle Scout. The interview I went through to obtain my Eagle Scout ranking had no mention of my religious or sexual preferences.
Take it for what it really is. Boy Scouts isnt some sort of religious gay bashing club. It's about teaching boys about teamwork, leadership, self sufficiency, and having fun both indoors and outdoors.
Ideally that's all it would be about, but based on what I've read and heard from others, it seems that your mileage may vary as far as anti-gay and anti-atheist troops go.
Ultimately, one need not even take the risk that there will be sponsored gay or atheist bashing, as there are other reputable programs that teach the same skills, and in my opinion do a better job of it.
Sort of. The problem is that the 'few' making the BSA look bad are the leadership. If there were some deep south Boy Scout troops making the same decisions on their own and the BSA leadership kept to a policy that they leave religious issues to the individual troops, that would be fine, and I'd just want to be sure of the troop my kid was joining before signing him up. But where it's the leadership saying it, a local troop would have to actually defy the rules and regulations under which they're supposed to operate to knowingly place a gay or atheist in a position of leadership. The fact that some troops might be willing to take that on (though I haven't heard of any doing it) doesn't redeem the organization.
And the fact that they don't ask doesn't make it moral. Don't ask don't tell was a horrible policy for the military and is a horrible one for the BSA.
Also, not putting your child in a religious organization because you disagree with their beliefs seems to be choosing your child's religion for them. I doubt many atheists are keen on the idea of parents forcing their children to go to church, yet many of you seem to be basing your decisions using the same concept.
The molestation issue is a thing of the past and is not really relevant in modern scouting. I assure you, the BSA takes very serious steps to make it that way.
All of that said, the sexual orientation discrimination is rather prejudiced and I would agree with many of you that is a glaring fault.
This is said as both an Eagle scout and as someone who isn't particularly religious one way or the other. I would probably say I'm Atheist but I'm officially becoming Eagle today and that would be awkward.
Now the problem I can see is with gay parents wanting to be involved. Since leaders have to attend district meetings I am sure that would be to public of a rule violation. That is wrong and horrible and I am all for changing it. I am all for changing everything that has been brought up as a concern in this thread because at the end of the day Boy Scouts should be about teaching the boys life lessons and what religion and sexual orientation their leaders are has no bearing on that goal. I would whole heartedly support any movement or action taken to make those changes. However I would have a very hard time not having my child go to boy scouts as some kind of protest... I had a great experience in scouts and learned a lot from it and I would hate to take that away from someone.
As to leadership, I personally am uncomfortable with any leader who does not currently have a child in the organization.
As to the religious side of scouting: religion is not the focus of any required scout activity. Many troops meet in facilities provided them by churches, however. Apart from a formal saying of grace, religion played no role in my scouting experience.
I suppose it should. Don't read into too much.
To answer the OP: Much like myself, if my child expressed an interest in joining I wouldn't say no, I wouldn't force it on him either.
For Lists, Click Here
EDH:
GW: Selvala, Let us help YOU.
UB: Mirko Vosk, when outmatched cheat
BW: Vish Kal, The Arbiter of Reanimation
UG: Prime Speaker Zegana, the science of sorcery
RB: Malfegor, Traitor's Haven
UW: Daxos, Control-Fort-Tron
BG: Pharika, Goddess of Stax
RW: Gisela, Boros Control
RG: Ruric Thar, a Primal Surge deck
RU: Niv-Mizzet the Firemind, Spellslinger?!?!
B:(Pauper) Mikaeus the Unhallowed
R: Kurkesh, Onakke Ancient: The Power of Engineering