WASHINGTON — The Supreme Court ordered California on Monday to release tens of thousands of its prisoners to relieve overcrowding, saying that "needless suffering and death" had resulted from putting too many inmates into facilities that cannot hold them in decent conditions.
It is one of the largest prison release orders in the nation's history, and it sharply split the high court.
Justices upheld an order from a three-judge panel in California that called for releasing 38,000 to 46,000 prisoners. Since then, the state has transferred about 9,000 state inmates to county jails. As a result, the total prison population is now about 32,000 more than the capacity limit set by the panel.
Justice Anthony M. Kennedy, speaking for the majority, said California's prisons had "fallen short of minimum constitutional requirements" because of overcrowding. As many as 200 prisoners may live in gymnasium, he said, and as many as 54 prisoners share a single toilet.
Kennedy insisted that the state had no choice but to release more prisoners. The justices, however, agreed that California officials should be given more time to make the needed reductions.
In dissent, Justice Antonin Scalia called the ruling "staggering" and "absurd."
He said the high court had repeatedly overruled the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals for ordering the release of individual prisoners. Now, he said, the majority were ordering the release of "46,000 happy-go-lucky felons." He added that "terrible things are sure to happen as a consequence of this outrageous order." Justice Clarence Thomas agreed with him.
In a separate dissent, Justice Samuel A. Alito Jr. and Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr. said the ruling conflicted with a federal law intended to limit the power of federal judges to order a release of prisoners.
A divisive issue.
On one hand, if the prisons' conditions are atrocious, it is undignified to keep prisoners there. More prisons could be built, but that would take time.
On the other hand, can the criminal justice system in California serve as a deterrent to criminality if there is a possibility for this type of thing?
What do you think about this ruling by The Supreme Court?
i think it's a correct ruling, but they need to blame the state, not the court.
State needs to probably stick to releasing, non-violent, non-sexually related, drug offenders, and figure out a way to legally convert them to community service or even labor.
Bring back the chain gang, but make a more humane version where they pick fruit and work less hours than the old style chain gangs or something.
I just don't understand why we even have people in prison for possessing drugs, use some of that money for court ordered rehab and make them do community service as their punishment. People can be rehabilitated and it would be cheaper in the long run. Of course if they committed another crime they would go to jail for that crime and that crime alone and then go to rehab.
I'm with dcartist. We have many MANY infrastructure projects for them to stay busy..anyone remember the WPA program? Like that.
I think this is a bad idea, but I understand the need to do it. I both do & do not sympathize with the inmates.
California needs to balance its books. That's the only takeaway lesson here. Nothing new either. This is just one more reason I'm SO glad I do not live there.
They should have just built new prisons. Ordering thousands of prisoners to be released is a horrible decision. Crime is going to go way up. Hopefully they will only release the non-violent prisoners. The ones that are in there for drug possession or something.
I'm with dcartist. We have many MANY infrastructure projects for them to stay busy..anyone remember the WPA program? Like that.
I think this is a bad idea, but I understand the need to do it. I both do & do not sympathize with the inmates.
California needs to balance its books. That's the only takeaway lesson here. Nothing new either. This is just one more reason I'm SO glad I do not live there.
I would much rather the infrastructure projects went to those who are out of work and were not in prison.
I think its a huge mistake to let the felons go. We all know they will lose track of a number of them and they will migrate to other states and start their criminal ways again.
Scary times to be living in Cali. I sure wouldnt want to live there.
Bring back the chain gang, but make a more humane version where they pick fruit and work less hours than the old style chain gangs or something.
With California's agriculture and politics, it seems like it'd be the perfect place to start something like this. The only workers it'd hurt is the under-the-table immigrant workers.
Yeah, but only if they've demonstrated already that they are epileptic and prone to tripping. In short, some people shouldn't have stairs in their house.
You're saying some addicts shouldn't have drugs?
I'd agree, but that's for them to decide.
Take the money used to incarcerate addicts and use it to give them clean places to use, and free access to treatment if they so desire.
They obviously have to come up with a form of punishment for lesser crimes (esp drugs) that doesn't cost the state $23-45,000/ year.
We incarcerate more humans than China and they're like freaking 3 times our population.
I have lots of specific ideas for the prison system, too much to get into right away,but it's clearly ridiculous that when we give a guy a 5 year sentence, it's instantly $100,000+ added to the state's budget obligations.
It costs a lot to incarcerate prisoners, because we give then too much freedom. Why should they get any of that? For prisoners of serious crime, Isolate into smaller groups (like smaller classrooms in school) Force the groups to be reshuffled every 3 months so nobody can keep any long term social or gang connections. Limit communication between units of the prison population. why have a general prison yard for hanging out? Screw that. Read a damn book. Mind your own business. Keep danger to a minimum. Force a prison life of quiet contemplation. ☺☺☺☺ you if you want more socializing than that. Needs to be cheap but not inhumane.
And ☺☺☺☺ yeah use prison labor. Pay min wage... But put in trust that pays back what they owe victims.
I'd agree, but that's for them to decide.
Take the money used to incarcerate addicts and use it to give them clean places to use, and free access to treatment if they so desire.
Actually no, that is not for them to decide. Drugs are illegal and should be illegal. If you use drugs and do something stupid that is all on you.
Put the druggies in rehab whether they want to or not. Do not give them any drugs. Free treatment in good facilities for sure, but no access to drugs. Drugs(and their own stupid choices) ruined their life in the first place.
Actually no, that is not for them to decide. Drugs are illegal and should be illegal. If you use drugs and do something stupid that is all on you.
Put the druggies in rehab whether they want to or not. Do not give them any drugs. Free treatment in good facilities for sure, but no access to drugs. Drugs(and their own stupid choices) ruined their life in the first place.
To err is human. Have you never made any mistakes in your life?
Furthermore, they are only hurting themselves. They should be pitied, not punished. And sometimes its not even a choice; my brother became addicted to painkillers after having his large intestine surgically removed. Think he should have been locked up for having been dealt a ☺☺☺☺ty hand in life?
Rehab will only work if drug addicts want it to work, or they'll start using again once they hit the street.
Safe places to shoot up clean drugs means: 1) less disease (no shared/dirty needles); 2) fewer druggies out in neighbourhoods; and it undercuts drug dealers and the drug trade in general, which is the source of a lot of crime.
To err is human. Have you never made any mistakes in your life?
Furthermore, they are only hurting themselves. They should be pitied, not punished. And sometimes its not even a choice; my brother became addicted to painkillers after having his large intestine surgically removed. Think he should have been locked up for having been dealt a ☺☺☺☺ty hand in life?
Rehab will only work if drug addicts want it to work, or they'll start using again once they hit the street.
Safe places to shoot up clean drugs means: 1) less disease (no shared/dirty needles); 2) fewer druggies out in neighbourhoods; and it undercuts drug dealers and the drug trade in general, which is the source of a lot of crime.
Do you think drug users exist in a vacuum? They harm their families, they oftentimes will turn to crime to pay for their addiction. The money they spend on drugs goes to cartels who kill people on a regular basis....
Actually no, that is not for them to decide. Drugs are illegal and should be illegal. If you use drugs and do something stupid that is all on you.
If our Law enforcment was doing there job in the first place and ensuring such drugs never MADE it too the street, you might have a good point however as long as there is supply (and people who get addicted at birth becuase of addicted parents) its rather hard to fault the addict.
You always have a choice. Moreover, you usually don't just have one choice. Each time you do it, you have a choice. It's not like the drugs catch you in a dark alley and rape you. Drugs are inanimate, last time I checked. They aren't actors. They cannot perform actions.
People who lack your immense willpower (and who only harm themselves) should be punished? No dice.
Yep. And then you put them in jail. That way they can't be using drugs. At least not in the street.
How certain are you that drugs aren't available in prisons?
I'm sorry for you that you would take away someone's liberty rather than let them use the public space you take for granted, because their self-inflicted harm offends you.
Let me ask you this. As a person who had a relative with a drug dependency, would you want the government giving your brother pain pills?
I live in a country with socialized medicine, so I don't mind if the government gives out pain pills. A doctor's patient's addiction is an issue for the doctor; it is not cause for the government to stop funding medication.
you know some people believe serial killers are addicting to killing, should we pity them too?
Good question, I don't know.
But serial killers are imprisoned for killing others (justice), and to protect society (harm prevention).
Drug addicts are imprisoned for harming themselves (justice?), and to keep them off the streets (harm prevention?)
Furthermore, they are only hurting themselves. They should be pitied, not punished.
They are not just hurting themselves. They are hurting those that care about them most. They are harming society through their action while on the drugs. If they do the drugs and commit no other harm, then fine. The second they rob a store, jail. Maybe rehab if they have not already been through nine times.
And sometimes its not even a choice; my brother became addicted to painkillers after having his large intestine surgically removed. Think he should have been locked up for having been dealt a ☺☺☺☺ty hand in life?
People go through ☺☺☺☺. It happens. If he made good choices afterward, then all is well. I have family that is also addicted. You know what. Her mistakes are her fault.
Rehab will only work if drug addicts want it to work, or they'll start using again once they hit the street.
That is why you have to keep the druggies in rehab for very long periods of time followed by trying to build them back up. If you put them back the way they came in of course it will not work.
If our Law enforcment was doing there job in the first place and ensuring such drugs never MADE it too the street, you might have a good point however as long as there is supply (and people who get addicted at birth becuase of addicted parents) its rather hard to fault the addict.
There is money to be made. Some is always going to get through. Even stupid people can be clever. Also, no one forces people to do drugs in the first place. It is called saying NO! Just because there is a supply of something does not mean anything. As long as the cops are arresting druggies, then there is a chance for them to get better.
Good question, I don't know.
But serial killers are imprisoned for killing others (justice), and to protect society (harm prevention).
Drug addicts are imprisoned for harming themselves (justice?), and to keep them off the streets (harm prevention?)
Drug addicts often harm others. They steal, kill, and commit other crimes. Anything to get what they want. Not to mention the damage to their families.
well they could get rid of the several thousand illegals they have locked up over there and just dump them back into mexico. that right there would free up a ton of room.
Have you ever been chemically addicted to making mistakes?
people quit doing drugs and other bad things all the time.
Locking addicts up with violent, hardened criminals is not "assistance
most drug addicts don't go to max security prisons either.
People who lack your immense willpower (and who only harm themselves) should be punished? No dice.
the problem with drugs is that it is a slippery slope just like alochol. you don't mean to hurt someone but sometimes in the end you do.
whether physically or emotionally.
How certain are you that drugs aren't available in prisons?
I'm sorry for you that you would take away someone's liberty rather than let them use the public space you take for granted, because their self-inflicted harm offends you.
sure drugs sometimes sneek into prisons but they do a pretty good job of catching them.
No their self-inflicted harm can cause damage to other people. drug gangs are not a very good thing for the community in general and turf wars between gangs leads to people getting shot or killed.
drugs in a neighborhood tend to drag that neighborhood down.
If I inject heroin into my veins, am I harming you?
not so much personally but society wise yes. as you become a useless lump on drugs. which means you will be fired from your job. you will probably lose your family if you have one. you will lose everything else because businesses don't hire junkies on most occasions.
etc ...
Fixed that for you, and I agree. That's why imprisoning them (food/shelter) is a dumb idea.
way to distort what he said. arguement failed.
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it really doesn't matter who they let go these people are going to wind right back up where they are at because they are going to do the same stupid stuff that got them there to begin with.
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I agree that it saves a lot of taxpayer money if we focus on reforming drug users rather than prosecuting them and shutting them in prison, as well as helping society by producing more productive members and tearing apart fewer families - but don't some people derive a little personal satisfaction by seeing people they don't like or think made bad choices go to jail? Isn't that more important than helping people and saving the taxpayer money for important things?
You screw up once that is a mistake. You do it several times, thats stupidity/lack of self control/a problem that needs solving.
I agree. But you treat an addiction. You don't throw an addict in with violent criminals.
They are not just hurting themselves. They are hurting those that care about them most. They are harming society through their action while on the drugs. If they do the drugs and commit no other harm, then fine. The second they rob a store, jail. Maybe rehab if they have not already been through nine times. I suspect the families of addicts would rather that the money spent on locking up addicts be used to treat them, instead of exposing them to violence and disease in prisons.
Also, I think robbing a store was, and still is, illegal.
People go through ☺☺☺☺. It happens. If he made good choices afterward, then all is well. I have family that is also addicted. You know what. Her mistakes are her fault.
Maybe so. But unless she robs a store, I don't think she belongs in prison for her mistake. And if she does rob a store, she'll go to prison for robbing a store.
That is why you have to keep the druggies in rehab for very long periods of time followed by trying to build them back up. If you put them back the way they came in of course it will not work. It won't work unless they don't want to take the drugs. There could be a lot of underlying problems leading them to use that aren't necessarily fixed by rehab. And either way, rehab =/= prison. Maybe we should put them in mandatory rehab, but we should not put them in prison.
Drug addicts often harm others. They steal, kill, and commit other crimes. Anything to get what they want. Not to mention the damage to their families. Last I checked, stealing, killing, and other crimes were, and still are, illegal.
people quit doing drugs and other bad things all the time. My point is that it's not easy.
most drug addicts don't go to max security prisons either. Jail is often far more overcrowded that prison. And even medium security prisons are full of violent, hardened criminals.
the problem with drugs is that it is a slippery slope just like alochol. you don't mean to hurt someone but sometimes in the end you do.
whether physically or emotionally. Hurting someone physically was, and still is, illegal. Hurting someone emotionally is not.
sure drugs sometimes sneek into prisons but they do a pretty good job of catching them. I suspect the truth is quite a bit different.
No their self-inflicted harm can cause damage to other people. drug gangs are not a very good thing for the community in general and turf wars between gangs leads to people getting shot or killed. This is why you provide the drugs to the drug users: no more fat paycheques for "drug gangs".
drugs in a neighborhood tend to drag that neighborhood down. This is why you should provide a safe, clean place for drug users to shoot up. You take the drug users out of the neighbourhood and send them to somewhere else.
not so much personally but society wise yes. as you become a useless lump on drugs. which means you will be fired from your job. you will probably lose your family if you have one. you will lose everything else because businesses don't hire junkies on most occasions.
etc ... Last time I checked (and I could be wrong on this one), getting fired and losing your family is not against the law. If it was, there'd be an even bigger prison overcrowding problem than there currently is...
way to distort what he said. arguement failed. He objected to paying for the drugs that drug users would use. I "distorted" what he said to make the point that we are already paying for their food and shelter, which should at least be as objectionable to him.
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it really doesn't matter who they let go these people are going to wind right back up where they are at because they are going to do the same stupid stuff that got them there to begin with. Freedom sure is a :):):):):), isn't it. Maybe we should get rid of it.
This is an opportunity for CA to fix its budget problem. Just set up gladitorial pits and sell tickets... oh wait is that Cruel/Unusual?
The Romans never had a problem with overflowing prisons, just saying.
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On one hand, if the prisons' conditions are atrocious, it is undignified to keep prisoners there. More prisons could be built, but that would take time.
On the other hand, can the criminal justice system in California serve as a deterrent to criminality if there is a possibility for this type of thing?
What do you think about this ruling by The Supreme Court?
State needs to probably stick to releasing, non-violent, non-sexually related, drug offenders, and figure out a way to legally convert them to community service or even labor.
Bring back the chain gang, but make a more humane version where they pick fruit and work less hours than the old style chain gangs or something.
I think this is a bad idea, but I understand the need to do it. I both do & do not sympathize with the inmates.
California needs to balance its books. That's the only takeaway lesson here. Nothing new either. This is just one more reason I'm SO glad I do not live there.
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I would much rather the infrastructure projects went to those who are out of work and were not in prison.
I think its a huge mistake to let the felons go. We all know they will lose track of a number of them and they will migrate to other states and start their criminal ways again.
Scary times to be living in Cali. I sure wouldnt want to live there.
BRGotta Get or Get GotRB
(Avatar courtesy of Heylookitsamoose)
Prison is a burden on taxes- make people useful, reform them, and reintergrate them back into society.
I know it won't work for every person, but other countries have a much more successful time than the US with prisons.
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You're saying some addicts shouldn't have drugs?
I'd agree, but that's for them to decide.
Take the money used to incarcerate addicts and use it to give them clean places to use, and free access to treatment if they so desire.
BRGotta Get or Get GotRB
(Avatar courtesy of Heylookitsamoose)
We incarcerate more humans than China and they're like freaking 3 times our population.
I have lots of specific ideas for the prison system, too much to get into right away,but it's clearly ridiculous that when we give a guy a 5 year sentence, it's instantly $100,000+ added to the state's budget obligations.
It costs a lot to incarcerate prisoners, because we give then too much freedom. Why should they get any of that? For prisoners of serious crime, Isolate into smaller groups (like smaller classrooms in school) Force the groups to be reshuffled every 3 months so nobody can keep any long term social or gang connections. Limit communication between units of the prison population. why have a general prison yard for hanging out? Screw that. Read a damn book. Mind your own business. Keep danger to a minimum. Force a prison life of quiet contemplation. ☺☺☺☺ you if you want more socializing than that. Needs to be cheap but not inhumane.
And ☺☺☺☺ yeah use prison labor. Pay min wage... But put in trust that pays back what they owe victims.
Well, to be fair, they execute people for a lot more reasons and due process isn't something that happens a lot.
Actually no, that is not for them to decide. Drugs are illegal and should be illegal. If you use drugs and do something stupid that is all on you.
Put the druggies in rehab whether they want to or not. Do not give them any drugs. Free treatment in good facilities for sure, but no access to drugs. Drugs(and their own stupid choices) ruined their life in the first place.
Avatar by Hakai Studios
To err is human. Have you never made any mistakes in your life?
Furthermore, they are only hurting themselves. They should be pitied, not punished. And sometimes its not even a choice; my brother became addicted to painkillers after having his large intestine surgically removed. Think he should have been locked up for having been dealt a ☺☺☺☺ty hand in life?
Rehab will only work if drug addicts want it to work, or they'll start using again once they hit the street.
Safe places to shoot up clean drugs means: 1) less disease (no shared/dirty needles); 2) fewer druggies out in neighbourhoods; and it undercuts drug dealers and the drug trade in general, which is the source of a lot of crime.
BRGotta Get or Get GotRB
(Avatar courtesy of Heylookitsamoose)
Do you think drug users exist in a vacuum? They harm their families, they oftentimes will turn to crime to pay for their addiction. The money they spend on drugs goes to cartels who kill people on a regular basis....
If our Law enforcment was doing there job in the first place and ensuring such drugs never MADE it too the street, you might have a good point however as long as there is supply (and people who get addicted at birth becuase of addicted parents) its rather hard to fault the addict.
Have you ever been chemically addicted to making mistakes?
Locking addicts up with violent, hardened criminals is not "assistance", unless you work for Miniluv.
People who lack your immense willpower (and who only harm themselves) should be punished? No dice.
He didn't commit violent crime. He didn't commit property crime. He only hurt himself.
How certain are you that drugs aren't available in prisons?
I'm sorry for you that you would take away someone's liberty rather than let them use the public space you take for granted, because their self-inflicted harm offends you.
If I inject heroin into my veins, am I harming you?
That's why imprisoning them (paying for them to enjoy food/shelter) is "super dubious".
I live in a country with socialized medicine, so I don't mind if the government gives out pain pills. A doctor's patient's addiction is an issue for the doctor; it is not cause for the government to stop funding medication.
Yes.
Yes.
I don't know. But I do know that throwing him in prison with violent criminals is not the answer.
BRGotta Get or Get GotRB
(Avatar courtesy of Heylookitsamoose)
Good question, I don't know.
But serial killers are imprisoned for killing others (justice), and to protect society (harm prevention).
Drug addicts are imprisoned for harming themselves (justice?), and to keep them off the streets (harm prevention?)
BRGotta Get or Get GotRB
(Avatar courtesy of Heylookitsamoose)
You screw up once that is a mistake. You do it several times, thats stupidity/lack of self control/a problem that needs solving.
They are not just hurting themselves. They are hurting those that care about them most. They are harming society through their action while on the drugs. If they do the drugs and commit no other harm, then fine. The second they rob a store, jail. Maybe rehab if they have not already been through nine times.
People go through ☺☺☺☺. It happens. If he made good choices afterward, then all is well. I have family that is also addicted. You know what. Her mistakes are her fault.
That is why you have to keep the druggies in rehab for very long periods of time followed by trying to build them back up. If you put them back the way they came in of course it will not work.
There is money to be made. Some is always going to get through. Even stupid people can be clever. Also, no one forces people to do drugs in the first place. It is called saying NO! Just because there is a supply of something does not mean anything. As long as the cops are arresting druggies, then there is a chance for them to get better.
Drug addicts often harm others. They steal, kill, and commit other crimes. Anything to get what they want. Not to mention the damage to their families.
Avatar by Hakai Studios
people quit doing drugs and other bad things all the time.
most drug addicts don't go to max security prisons either.
the problem with drugs is that it is a slippery slope just like alochol. you don't mean to hurt someone but sometimes in the end you do.
whether physically or emotionally.
sure drugs sometimes sneek into prisons but they do a pretty good job of catching them.
No their self-inflicted harm can cause damage to other people. drug gangs are not a very good thing for the community in general and turf wars between gangs leads to people getting shot or killed.
drugs in a neighborhood tend to drag that neighborhood down.
not so much personally but society wise yes. as you become a useless lump on drugs. which means you will be fired from your job. you will probably lose your family if you have one. you will lose everything else because businesses don't hire junkies on most occasions.
etc ...
way to distort what he said. arguement failed.
-----------------------
it really doesn't matter who they let go these people are going to wind right back up where they are at because they are going to do the same stupid stuff that got them there to begin with.
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BRGotta Get or Get GotRB
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The Romans never had a problem with overflowing prisons, just saying.