And sorry, error in title, technically not a pardon. It's clemency, commuting his sentence to 5 months.
So many ways to look at this. Lots of reason to be angry or sad on all sides of the debate. The following does not represent my personal opinions... Just alternative ways to see this:
(1) John White (black) shot & killed Daniel Cicciaro (unarmed white teenager) in face. How could he get only 4 years for shooting an unarmed teen?
(2) Daniel Cicciaro and his posse of 3 other drunk white kids threatened to kill John White's son (Aaron White) that night repeatedly, and showed up at John's house like a lynch mob yelling the N- word, refused to leave after being told to at gunpoint, and Daniel was accidentally shot, after slapping John's gun away.
(3) If John White were actually white, he would have been charged under federal hate crimes statutes. They should have brought down those federal charges or Civil rights violations.
(4) If John White were actually white and 4 angry drunk black kids showed up at his in the middle of the night threatening to kill his son, and calling him out to fight, John could have shot all 4 of them and wouldn't have been cited for So much as a noise violation.
(5) Underage drinking (was it fourlokos, anyone know?) was the culprit. Those 4 idiot white teens get drunk, they are a serious danger, and they took their own lives into their hands?
(6) John was legally obligated to call a cop, and he should have done so and hid.
(7) John was on his own property, and he had no reason to call a cop until the angry drunk posse actually showed up, which is the only point at which the cops would have done anything anyway. Then if the cops show up, they'd probably arrest the two black people (case in point: what happened to that Harvard professor), search their house and charge hen with a gun violation
(8) Another tragic Myspace hoax was the culprit (who he hell is still on Myspace? Wannabe gangsta teenagers? )
(9) Outgoing black governor commutes sentence of black man and doesn't even bother to call the family of the victim to hear them out first.
-
This whole stupid mess started because Michael Longo, a friend of Aaron White IMPERSONATED Aaron White, making a fake Myspace page for Aaron and threatening a girl (Jenny) with many things including rape (as a "joke"... ???????????? )
This Internet hoax happened 9 months before the shooting, and Jenny only told Daniel that night. Makes you wonder how seriously she took these as threats, and what the tone of the dialog was. Aaron White was clueless. Daniel found out, told Aaron to leave party. After Aaron left party, Daniel called him and demanded he return, threatened to kill him, used the n- word, etc.
Ultimately Daniel rounded up his drunk posse/lynchmob and ended up on John and Aaron's front lawn, facing John and Aaron telling them to JUST LEAVE at gunpoint... and refusing to go... slapping John's gun away...
Daniel Cicciaro, dead at the age of 17 for no damn good reason.
What is justice in this case? Keep in mind that in a case like this any answer you choose should leave you dissatisfied and uneasy because its tragic regardless. Who's a villain? Who should be in jail? I wish Michael Longo could be punished. There's certainly no heroes. No awards to be given out here unless it's a Darwin Award for Daniel.
Your post is extremely confusing an unclear. You seem to either make severe mistakes with confusing names and/or the skin tone of whom you are currently speaking of.
What is registering in my head is this:
Aaron was a kid of color.
Daniel was a Caucasian.
John is Aarons father.
Aaron's friend Michael makes a fake myspace, and threatens some girl.
Daniel gets pissed and drunk, leads a drunken lynch mob to their house, making physical and verbal threats against Aaron and his father.
John's gun discharges after Daniel stupidly tries to knock the gun out of his hand, and Daniel ends up dead.
John's sentence gets reduced a while later.
-
If all of the above is correct, then John, the father, was acting fully in self defense of him and his son.
Daniel should NOT of tried to lead a lynch mob in the first place, with racially motivated violence in mind.
Aaron himself did absolutely nothing wrong in this situation, so I have no idea where you get that "nobody is the good guy here".
John should of called the police, yes. Then again, Daniel should of not been there in the first place. Then again, Michael should never of made a fake myspace.
So a series of mistakes led to the death of a kid from what I can tell from the story, was a racist bigot in the first place who was fed misinformation and refused to talk it over with the accused party, and instead let hatred and rage fuel his actions. And he paid the ultimate price. I place no fault on John or Aaron in this situation. There were better avenues to take in this situation. But when you have a dozen angry white teens on your doorstep ready to kill your son when he didn't even do ANYTHING to these guys, then they got what was coming to them. John's sentence is fair.
they got what was coming to them. John's sentence is fair.
This.
Race is irrelevant in this story. If X walks onto Y's property, threatens Y and Y's son, and smacks Y's gun, thereby getting shot in the face, X deserves what X got, because X was stupid. Stupid knows no colour barrier.
Race shouldn't matter, but thanks to our wonderful hate crime legislation, if there is any indication of a racial motivation behind a crime, it needs to be taken into account and creates a much harsher sentence. I am very unclear as to exactly what went on here, who did what, and who is of what race though, so I can't really say if this was racially charged.
I'm in the same general vicinity as this crime, so it makes major news around here.
It's been highly disputed as to whether Daniel & co. actually said racial slurs. People just take this for granted any time a minority says that racial slurs were uttered. I don't like that White's defense pulled the race card so much.
Anyway, White is in the right here for protecting his own family and property.
The only problem I see is that it is a way excessive use of force, whether by accident or not.
Still, the teenagers were in fault for creating the chaotic environment.
I think it's a tough case to judge one way or another.
I'm O.K. with his sentence being commuted. Probably the right call.
While there are a lot of confounding issues, you have to remember the chain of events weren't as clear cut to either side as they are to us now. There seem to be quite a few Captain Hindsights in this thread.
Events, as they appeared to John White:
- His son recieves racially threatening remarks on the phone
- A bunch of drunk kids show up at his house making threats to him and his son
- He steps outside with his weapon and tells them toleave
- He uses his gun as a deterrent when they actually move onto his property
- The gun goes off when one of the boys tries to knock it away
- He is arrested for manslaughter
Events, as they appeared to Daniel Cicciaro
- Either he gets drunk and the girl tells him about the Myspace, or vice versa
- He decides to take matters into his own hands (Bad Decision 1)
- He drunk drives to the White's house (Bad Decision 2)
- On the way he makes threats on the phone
- He is asked to leave by John White, who has a gun
- He moves onto John White's property and tries to knock the gun away (Bad Decision 3)
- The gun goes off and he is killed
- If the gun didn't go off, the plan was obviously to severely beat Aaron White, and possible John as well
How is this not fairly clear cut? There is a reason John White was only charged with Manslaughter and sentenced for 2-4 years. While he did not make the best decisions, nothing he did was unreasonable, especially in what is obviously a racially charged area.
Am I sorry Daniel Cicciaro died? Absolutely, but that doesn't change the fact that not one, but three terrible decisions led to him basically causing his own death. I consider anyone who drinks and drives to be an attempted murderer, so I have little sympathy for Daniel's family not being notified. He was the aggressor, not a victim. Their feelings aren't important when it is their son who was the aggressor.
To be clear, size or being unarmed doesn't matter. People always bring up the person injured as being 'unarmed' - but they never think about the alternative (only in cases where the 'unarmed' person was the aggressor). If John White wasn't armed, how was he supposed to defend himself from a small mob of angry teens? He only fired by accident, when one of these teens attempted to assault him while he was armed with a gun. What kind of incredibly poor decision making process goes into a teenager being stupid enough to do that? What else was Daniel ready to do if he was willing to fight for a gun rather than run away? Even while drunk, your fear response should be great enough that there would be no sticking around, and possibly some pants wetting on the way out.
Race shouldn't matter, but thanks to our wonderful hate crime legislation, if there is any indication of a racial motivation behind a crime, it needs to be taken into account and creates a much harsher sentence. I am very unclear as to exactly what went on here, who did what, and who is of what race though, so I can't really say if this was racially charged.
A group of white teenagers yelling the "n-word" at a black teenager is about as racially charged as something gets.
Anyway, I'm of the following opinion:
- Homeowner, on his own property
- Facing potential violence and lethal force (armament of teenagers is unknown)
- Clearly belligerant and refuse to leave property
- Physically attack property owner to remove only means of defense
Yeah. That's as justified as shooting gets. Daniel Cicciaro, dead, murderer: stupidity. Claimed more victims than the black plague. Do. Not. Screw. With. Firearms. A firearm is a tool - it can protect you, it can get you game, it can be a fun recreational activity. And in all cases, it does those things by propelling small slugs at high velocity, slugs that are dangerous or deadly when you are hit by them. Don't mess around.
If this forum had Greasers, Phoenix, Commons and Semantics would be the leaders of the gang and every time they commented on something they would do a synchronized finger snap then smoke a cigarette.
A group of white teenagers yelling the "n-word" at a black teenager is about as racially charged as something gets.
I always interpreted Hate crime laws to be used when someone attacks someone for no other reason than race. (not that they are)
Its hard to tell one way or the other if Daniel would have gone to John and Aaron's house if they were white, but I'm thinking he would have. His girlfriend was threatened in his mind, and he wanted to do something about it.
Where did this take place? I know a Mike Longo, and he's kind of a dick.
This is clouded by too much unnecessary information. Only important facts:
On another persons property (in a group is even worse) making threats of or offering violence to said person or persons family.
Actual committal of offense (tried to get/knock away gun) is assault (contact of an insulting or provoking manner).
Get shot.
I would do it if someone was here threatening my daughter. They wouldn't get close enough to go for the gun. You do still have the right to protect yourself and your family in this country. Even with deadly force if a reasonable and prudent person could find it necessary.
I always interpreted Hate crime laws to be used when someone attacks someone for no other reason than race. (not that they are)
Its hard to tell one way or the other if Daniel would have gone to John and Aaron's house if they were white, but I'm thinking he would have. His girlfriend was threatened in his mind, and he wanted to do something about it.
Where did this take place? I know a Mike Longo, and he's kind of a dick.
I agree hate crime legislation is ridiculous. It is also ridiculous to sit here and deny that reality is reality. A white teenager who was using that word to refer to a black teenager and ends up shot and dead is the sort of situation that has racial overtones.
However, I think in the legal terms, lance is dead on. Too much unnecessary information. The manslaughter charge seems entirely unjustified.
If this forum had Greasers, Phoenix, Commons and Semantics would be the leaders of the gang and every time they commented on something they would do a synchronized finger snap then smoke a cigarette.
Race is irrelevant in this story. If X walks onto Y's property, threatens Y and Y's son, and smacks Y's gun, thereby getting shot in the face, X deserves what X got, because X was stupid. Stupid knows no colour barrier.
This. Also, hilariously put. It made me laugh.
Minor point, not completely on topic, but a point of common sense: If Y and Y's son would have gone inside, locked the door, called the police, and stayed inside until an officer responded, this whole mess would have been avoided. He had a gun, and if X and his "posse" wanted to escalate the situation further by breaking and entering, he could have then just shot all of them and used the "my house is my castle" law as justification, which would have resulted in no criminal prosecution, or, a much more likely scenario, no gunfire would have occurred, and this wouldn't be wasted cyberspace.
People are stupid, there's no ifs, ands, or buts about it. This forum in large is proof.
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http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2010/12/24/2010-12-24_gov_paterson_regrets_not_speaking_to_daniel_cicciaro_jrs_family_before_pardoning.html
And sorry, error in title, technically not a pardon. It's clemency, commuting his sentence to 5 months.
So many ways to look at this. Lots of reason to be angry or sad on all sides of the debate. The following does not represent my personal opinions... Just alternative ways to see this:
(1) John White (black) shot & killed Daniel Cicciaro (unarmed white teenager) in face. How could he get only 4 years for shooting an unarmed teen?
(2) Daniel Cicciaro and his posse of 3 other drunk white kids threatened to kill John White's son (Aaron White) that night repeatedly, and showed up at John's house like a lynch mob yelling the N- word, refused to leave after being told to at gunpoint, and Daniel was accidentally shot, after slapping John's gun away.
(3) If John White were actually white, he would have been charged under federal hate crimes statutes. They should have brought down those federal charges or Civil rights violations.
(4) If John White were actually white and 4 angry drunk black kids showed up at his in the middle of the night threatening to kill his son, and calling him out to fight, John could have shot all 4 of them and wouldn't have been cited for So much as a noise violation.
(5) Underage drinking (was it fourlokos, anyone know?) was the culprit. Those 4 idiot white teens get drunk, they are a serious danger, and they took their own lives into their hands?
(6) John was legally obligated to call a cop, and he should have done so and hid.
(7) John was on his own property, and he had no reason to call a cop until the angry drunk posse actually showed up, which is the only point at which the cops would have done anything anyway. Then if the cops show up, they'd probably arrest the two black people (case in point: what happened to that Harvard professor), search their house and charge hen with a gun violation
(8) Another tragic Myspace hoax was the culprit (who he hell is still on Myspace? Wannabe gangsta teenagers? )
(9) Outgoing black governor commutes sentence of black man and doesn't even bother to call the family of the victim to hear them out first.
-
This whole stupid mess started because Michael Longo, a friend of Aaron White IMPERSONATED Aaron White, making a fake Myspace page for Aaron and threatening a girl (Jenny) with many things including rape (as a "joke"... ???????????? )
This Internet hoax happened 9 months before the shooting, and Jenny only told Daniel that night. Makes you wonder how seriously she took these as threats, and what the tone of the dialog was. Aaron White was clueless. Daniel found out, told Aaron to leave party. After Aaron left party, Daniel called him and demanded he return, threatened to kill him, used the n- word, etc.
Ultimately Daniel rounded up his drunk posse/lynchmob and ended up on John and Aaron's front lawn, facing John and Aaron telling them to JUST LEAVE at gunpoint... and refusing to go... slapping John's gun away...
Daniel Cicciaro, dead at the age of 17 for no damn good reason.
What is justice in this case? Keep in mind that in a case like this any answer you choose should leave you dissatisfied and uneasy because its tragic regardless. Who's a villain? Who should be in jail? I wish Michael Longo could be punished. There's certainly no heroes. No awards to be given out here unless it's a Darwin Award for Daniel.
What is registering in my head is this:
Aaron was a kid of color.
Daniel was a Caucasian.
John is Aarons father.
Aaron's friend Michael makes a fake myspace, and threatens some girl.
Daniel gets pissed and drunk, leads a drunken lynch mob to their house, making physical and verbal threats against Aaron and his father.
John's gun discharges after Daniel stupidly tries to knock the gun out of his hand, and Daniel ends up dead.
John's sentence gets reduced a while later.
-
If all of the above is correct, then John, the father, was acting fully in self defense of him and his son.
Daniel should NOT of tried to lead a lynch mob in the first place, with racially motivated violence in mind.
Aaron himself did absolutely nothing wrong in this situation, so I have no idea where you get that "nobody is the good guy here".
John should of called the police, yes. Then again, Daniel should of not been there in the first place. Then again, Michael should never of made a fake myspace.
So a series of mistakes led to the death of a kid from what I can tell from the story, was a racist bigot in the first place who was fed misinformation and refused to talk it over with the accused party, and instead let hatred and rage fuel his actions. And he paid the ultimate price. I place no fault on John or Aaron in this situation. There were better avenues to take in this situation. But when you have a dozen angry white teens on your doorstep ready to kill your son when he didn't even do ANYTHING to these guys, then they got what was coming to them. John's sentence is fair.
This.
Race is irrelevant in this story. If X walks onto Y's property, threatens Y and Y's son, and smacks Y's gun, thereby getting shot in the face, X deserves what X got, because X was stupid. Stupid knows no colour barrier.
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It's been highly disputed as to whether Daniel & co. actually said racial slurs. People just take this for granted any time a minority says that racial slurs were uttered. I don't like that White's defense pulled the race card so much.
Anyway, White is in the right here for protecting his own family and property.
The only problem I see is that it is a way excessive use of force, whether by accident or not.
Still, the teenagers were in fault for creating the chaotic environment.
I think it's a tough case to judge one way or another.
I'm O.K. with his sentence being commuted. Probably the right call.
I expected you to read the linked articles first that tell the story of what happened.
I thought the sentence was fair, and I think the commutation was reasonable. And that may be a near concensus here. But it's far from universal.
Events, as they appeared to John White:
- His son recieves racially threatening remarks on the phone
- A bunch of drunk kids show up at his house making threats to him and his son
- He steps outside with his weapon and tells them toleave
- He uses his gun as a deterrent when they actually move onto his property
- The gun goes off when one of the boys tries to knock it away
- He is arrested for manslaughter
Events, as they appeared to Daniel Cicciaro
- Either he gets drunk and the girl tells him about the Myspace, or vice versa
- He decides to take matters into his own hands (Bad Decision 1)
- He drunk drives to the White's house (Bad Decision 2)
- On the way he makes threats on the phone
- He is asked to leave by John White, who has a gun
- He moves onto John White's property and tries to knock the gun away (Bad Decision 3)
- The gun goes off and he is killed
- If the gun didn't go off, the plan was obviously to severely beat Aaron White, and possible John as well
How is this not fairly clear cut? There is a reason John White was only charged with Manslaughter and sentenced for 2-4 years. While he did not make the best decisions, nothing he did was unreasonable, especially in what is obviously a racially charged area.
Am I sorry Daniel Cicciaro died? Absolutely, but that doesn't change the fact that not one, but three terrible decisions led to him basically causing his own death. I consider anyone who drinks and drives to be an attempted murderer, so I have little sympathy for Daniel's family not being notified. He was the aggressor, not a victim. Their feelings aren't important when it is their son who was the aggressor.
To be clear, size or being unarmed doesn't matter. People always bring up the person injured as being 'unarmed' - but they never think about the alternative (only in cases where the 'unarmed' person was the aggressor). If John White wasn't armed, how was he supposed to defend himself from a small mob of angry teens? He only fired by accident, when one of these teens attempted to assault him while he was armed with a gun. What kind of incredibly poor decision making process goes into a teenager being stupid enough to do that? What else was Daniel ready to do if he was willing to fight for a gun rather than run away? Even while drunk, your fear response should be great enough that there would be no sticking around, and possibly some pants wetting on the way out.
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A group of white teenagers yelling the "n-word" at a black teenager is about as racially charged as something gets.
Anyway, I'm of the following opinion:
- Homeowner, on his own property
- Facing potential violence and lethal force (armament of teenagers is unknown)
- Clearly belligerant and refuse to leave property
- Physically attack property owner to remove only means of defense
Yeah. That's as justified as shooting gets. Daniel Cicciaro, dead, murderer: stupidity. Claimed more victims than the black plague. Do. Not. Screw. With. Firearms. A firearm is a tool - it can protect you, it can get you game, it can be a fun recreational activity. And in all cases, it does those things by propelling small slugs at high velocity, slugs that are dangerous or deadly when you are hit by them. Don't mess around.
I always interpreted Hate crime laws to be used when someone attacks someone for no other reason than race. (not that they are)
Its hard to tell one way or the other if Daniel would have gone to John and Aaron's house if they were white, but I'm thinking he would have. His girlfriend was threatened in his mind, and he wanted to do something about it.
Where did this take place? I know a Mike Longo, and he's kind of a dick.
John White was black shooting a white kid, but if it had been black kids, he would have shot just as quickly.
On another persons property (in a group is even worse) making threats of or offering violence to said person or persons family.
Actual committal of offense (tried to get/knock away gun) is assault (contact of an insulting or provoking manner).
Get shot.
I would do it if someone was here threatening my daughter. They wouldn't get close enough to go for the gun. You do still have the right to protect yourself and your family in this country. Even with deadly force if a reasonable and prudent person could find it necessary.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=489747
I agree hate crime legislation is ridiculous. It is also ridiculous to sit here and deny that reality is reality. A white teenager who was using that word to refer to a black teenager and ends up shot and dead is the sort of situation that has racial overtones.
However, I think in the legal terms, lance is dead on. Too much unnecessary information. The manslaughter charge seems entirely unjustified.
This. Also, hilariously put. It made me laugh.
Minor point, not completely on topic, but a point of common sense: If Y and Y's son would have gone inside, locked the door, called the police, and stayed inside until an officer responded, this whole mess would have been avoided. He had a gun, and if X and his "posse" wanted to escalate the situation further by breaking and entering, he could have then just shot all of them and used the "my house is my castle" law as justification, which would have resulted in no criminal prosecution, or, a much more likely scenario, no gunfire would have occurred, and this wouldn't be wasted cyberspace.
People are stupid, there's no ifs, ands, or buts about it. This forum in large is proof.
--ABC