it depends on the situation. I don't see welfare as a hand up in many cases.
I should have said "Public assistance should not be a hand out but a hand up."
In many of 'those cases' the individuals probably think the world owes them something when, in fact, it doesn't.
They're more than likely the product of a 'what can my country do for me?' household.
To change the world we have to change ourselves. Part of that involves changing the way we think.
it isn't volunteering if you are forced to do it.
Where did I say anything about forcing? I said "asking."
Read my earlier post again and digest what it says. Really, think about it.
Pick up trash in a hood. Deliver food for Meals On Wheels. Sit and visit with the elderly.
It really doesn't matter what you do - just do something.
I would like to point out that in many areas this is not a vaild opption for people and can get them sued. By unions that are responcable for cleaning up the area/public park ect. Often these things have crimnal background checks and sterotypicaly many of these people have records. Likely its not that they can't help its that there are barrarers in place to stop them from doing so.
I would like to point out that in many areas this is not a vaild opption for people and can get them sued. By unions that are responcable for cleaning up the area/public park ect. Often these things have crimnal background checks and sterotypicaly many of these people have records. Likely its not that they can't help its that there are barrarers in place to stop them from doing so.
Maybe but, it is an excuse.
No excuses.
Everyone, no matter what their background, can help make a positive change in society.
There’s nothing preventing outlaws from aiding in other public groups. Hell, if they had probation and did community service - regardless if they finished or not - they have a list of agencies that will work within their legal scope.
If they found religion on the inside then it’s still there on the outside. Religious ex-convicts can find churches and volunteer with their groups.
This isn’t limited to ex-cons but covers everyone. Anyone can tap those resources.
If not for your own self worth then volunteer for the benefit of those around you.
That’s taking action and aiding in leading the nation in a responsible direction.
Fair enough. I didn't view this as falling under the typical view of what constitutes "slavery." I'd more agree with the view that it is more of a draft, or required civil service.
I rather like the idea that one is eligible for welfare only if one is doing productive work (with exceptions for health problems, etc.), even volunteer work. Because there really is a lot that needs doing. It would be better if it were local community service though, like tending a neighborhood garden or cleaning the sidewalks or whatever, since that has tangible, close-to-home results.
Plus, it's job skills or at least self-sufficiency skills. Teach a man to fish and all that.
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If you have a drug conviction that does stop you from doing those things. Once you have a drug conviction, you can be legally discriminated against for all of these things.
No one is physically forcing black people to commit crime. Because they get convicted for drug offenses more is of no consequence to this.
So if no one is forcing black people to commit crime, it also follows that no one is physically stopping them from gaining employment.
It appears you're trying hard to be an apologist for criminality.
The original post I responded to was mystery saying the problems in the black community were "cultural", and that external factors did not exist.
You start off by first posting the 13%/60% statistic, in the middle of a debate about how 'whitey' is still bringing people down, and offered no explanation of said statistic.
Isn't that a safe bet to assume you were contributing that to malicious racism?
Although now that you've cleared that up, we can cut a lot of chaff from this debate. Because it seem's like we are mostly on the same page.
The disadvantage is brought about by the inherent unfairness of the system. Just because there is not some nefarious person sitting there plotting how to screw over black people does not mean that the end result cannot be unfairly racially biased.
Yes. And I agree.
Although I would probably blame the current system less, and past systems more.
It's not "playing the blame game", it's pointing out problems that need to be addressed.
For you, maybe not.
But many others seem to enjoy that game. It truly confounds me.
But crime is not all the same. Some people have the advantage of being able to get away with it.
And when you don't, you really shouldn't be doing it.
Or at all, for that matter. But thats beside the point.
Not by blatant individual racism, no. But certainly by inherent racism in the structure of our police and justice system.
Inherent racism is in our very genes.
But as I said earlier, I would imagine the force that has a heavier effect on this situation is the previous system that was accepted.
I don't know where you came up with the idea that I thought this was about blatantly racist cops or juries or whatever.
See above.
I'm glad you clarified it, but I still have not seen an explanation as to why you believe that statistic to be the way it is.
The thing that needs to be recognized is that that sort of blatant racism is not the only kind that exists, and not the only kind that can have a real effect on people's lives.
No doubt.
But then again, I recongnized that from the start.
But my belief is that hard work and dedication is more then enough to break those bonds. Life isn't fair, or easy. But it becomes much harder when you stop fighting for yourself.
How do you know that non-drug related crime rates are not inflated at all? You just pulled that "fact" out of thin air.
Because, for instance, if violent crime rates were to suddenly sky-rocket in a predominantly white community (not to say they are not already sometimes pretty high), then the arrest and conviction ratios would change to reflect that.
The number one job for law enforcement is public safety. When public safety becomes compromised, police interaction goes up to combat this. Regardless of the skin color of the community. Again, this seems like pretty basic common sense.
How is it that the extra police presence produces a disproportionate number of drug arrests, but has no effect on arrests for other crimes?
Because with most drug offense, you are out same day, if not the next. Pretty much the epitome of revolving door.
But violent offense carry much steeper punishments, and takes those criminals out of circulation for much longer periods.
This is exactly my point. Arrest rates are not the same as actual crime rates, though. As the drug example shows, it is very difficult to correlate the two.
Difficult, yes. But that doesn't stop us from trying :wink:.
Although I think you would shoulder the burden of proof on this one to show me that arrest rates for violent crimes are not proportionate to the actual, real rate of those offenses.
Quote from Tuss »
Hrm, yes, the "personal accountability" of children who are born to poor parents and into poor communities. It was really too bad that they chose to be raised by people who don't have the economic stability to do a good job of it due to themselves belonging to a group that has for hundreds of years been relegated to the lowest of all social ranks
Yes, it's unfortunate that not everybody has access to the same tools for success.
But last time I checked, it doesn't take multiple generations to pull oneself out of poverty. In fact, I'm pretty sure you can nab a masters degree in about 4. And I'm also pretty sure that coming from poverty does not stop one from working 40 hours a week and spending wisely. Education really isn't as expensive as some would make you believe.
Personal accountability starts the moment you can actively work to better yourself. Before then, yes, it is a problem. And a sad one at that. But that's why society forces your child to get an education. If you can't force them as well, that's not really societies fault.
and actively been kept outside of academia, business and politics. This choice, arguably the first choice a person in this world makes, to me demonstrates a real lack of character. How regrettable.
This is where I have to throw up a :rolleyes:.
You still really believe it is active racism that keeps black people out of those areas?
Because I know plenty that seem to prove you wrong. In fact, theres at least 7 that live on my street alone.
You're trying to be cute with me but it's not going to work when you're wrong.
I wish I had a puppy dog emoticon to show you that I really CAN be cute.
Jace on the other hand gives you card advantage for no life cost. On the contrary, Jace can actually take some damage for you. I'd think that makes him better than Arena.
No one is physically forcing black people to commit crime. Because they get convicted for drug offenses more is of no consequence to this.
So if no one is forcing black people to commit crime, it also follows that no one is physically stopping them from gaining employment.
Yes, someone is.
{G}PiLeDrIvEr, you don't have absolute free will (one might argue you don't have any free will, but let's table that). You are a product of your environment. If you where born in 1800's you'd not be the man you are today. The same is true if your parents were super rich or super poor or whatever.
This is a fact. If you're born in a ☺☺☺☺ty home, you are LESS LIKELY to be a fully functional member of society. It's simply true.
People like this whole "responsibility for your own actions" bull☺☺☺☺ because it makes them feel better about prisons. The truth is we lock criminals up not, because they are "responsible for their own actions," (whatever the ☺☺☺☺ that means) but because we can't have them running around disrupting things. Whether or not they're a criminal because their mother did not love them or because they got a bad break does not matter, they still need to be locked up because that's the way we fix the problem.
Which leads us to the problem at hand. Is it the whiteman's fault many black people got a bad childhood, and thus are more likely to be criminals? Yes, yes it is. That is a simple fact, but it does not matter IN THE SLIGHTEST for fixing the problem.
{G}PiLeDrIvEr, you don't have absolute free will (one might argue you don't have any free will, but let's table that). You are a product of your environment. If you where born in 1800's you'd not be the man you are today. The same is true if your parents were super rich or super poor or whatever.
This is a fact. If you're born in a ☺☺☺☺ty home, you are LESS LIKELY to be a fully functional member of society. It's simply true.
People like this whole "responsibility for your own actions" bull☺☺☺☺ because it makes them feel better about prisons. The truth is we lock criminals up not, because they are "responsible for their own actions," (whatever the ☺☺☺☺ that means) but because we can't have them running around disrupting things. Whether or not they're a criminal because their mother did not love them or because they got a bad break does not matter, they still need to be locked up because that's the way we fix the problem.
Which leads us to the problem at hand. Is it the whiteman's fault many black people got a bad childhood, and thus are more likely to be criminals? Yes, yes it is. That is a simple fact, but it does not matter IN THE SLIGHTEST for fixing the problem.
Skullclamp cannot really be considered a best for it was banned upon release. I think the best card/most broken card on that list has to be Bloodbraid Elf. That card was too busted.
{G}PiLeDrIvEr, you don't have absolute free will (one might argue you don't have any free will, but let's table that).
Technically, you do.
But to live and prosper in a society such as this, you have to sacrifice some of that to reap the rewards.
And one of the things you need to sacrifice is the committing of an action that is deemed illegal under said society.
You are a product of your environment.
The environment being society.
And society says you should not be doing those things.
If you where born in 1800's you'd not be the man you are today. The same is true if your parents were super rich or super poor or whatever.
This is a fact.
Of course it is.
But none of that takes away your ability to think critically, and realize that partaking in certain actions, that YOU choose to partake in, can either negatively of positively affect your life.
You are acting like the black community brain washes it's people into a certain way of thinking.
It can influence, yes. But it cannot force.
If you're born in a ☺☺☺☺ty home, you are LESS LIKELY to be a fully functional member of society. It's simply true.
But you are still ABLE.
People like this whole "responsibility for your own actions" bull☺☺☺☺ because it makes them feel better about prisons.
This doesn't make sense.
The truth is we lock criminals up not, because they are "responsible for their own actions," (whatever the ☺☺☺☺ that means) but because we can't have them running around disrupting things.
Both are true.
If you aren't responsible for your actions, then you cannot be locked up in the first place.
Which leads us to the problem at hand. Is it the whiteman's fault many black people got a bad childhood, and thus are more likely to be criminals? Yes, yes it is. That is a simple fact, but it does not matter IN THE SLIGHTEST for fixing the problem.
That may have been in the past, but today is radically different than yesterday.
Like I said earlier, it doesn't take multiple generations to pull oneself out of poverty. Over time, the white mans responsibility has dwindled to pretty much zero. The responsibility now solely rests in the hands of those who are in the position to make the most effective change.
Jace on the other hand gives you card advantage for no life cost. On the contrary, Jace can actually take some damage for you. I'd think that makes him better than Arena.
We just claim they are "100% responsible" to justify our solutions. But, that claim is just a construct; it has no bases in fact.
What does your awareness have to do with anything?
From what I saw, you're example is saying that people don't have a choice of what situation they are born into. They always have a choice for what to do in their life, and are therefore held responsible for that choice.
Skullclamp cannot really be considered a best for it was banned upon release. I think the best card/most broken card on that list has to be Bloodbraid Elf. That card was too busted.
Jace on the other hand gives you card advantage for no life cost. On the contrary, Jace can actually take some damage for you. I'd think that makes him better than Arena.
From what I saw, you're example is saying that people don't have a choice of what situation they are born into. They always have a choice for what to do in their life, and are therefore held responsible for that choice.
So I could be a million dollar playboy and never work if I wanted to? Wow, I guess I should do that then......... Oh, wait......
What your born into drastically affects your life. The reason people came up with the whole "responsible for their own actions" bit is because of sentiment like this one:
If you aren't responsible for your actions, then you cannot be locked up in the first place.
Which is 100% false, OF COURSE you can lock people up anyway. But, giving it a nice friendly "reason" makes people "feel better" about the whole thing.
You can argue about "LEVELS" of responsibly, but your just being diluted if you think your environment does not affect you at all.
What's physically stopping you from grabbing a gun and shooting a family member dead?
Nothing, save for the legal ramifications.
Sounds like free will to me.
There being a law about shooting people or not does not prove or disprove free will. Stop being silly.
But I'd like for you to try to prove to me that the black community is brainwashing it's people, en masse, towards detriment.
"Brainwashing" is just an extreme example of how your environment affects you. But, yes, I am saying that if you grow up around high powered lawyers you'll have a different outlook on life than if you grow up around drug dealers. Since, you know, it's true.
So I could be a million dollar playboy and never work if I wanted to? Wow, I guess I should do that then......... Oh, wait......
Seems to me it happens everyday.
What your born into drastically effects your life. The reason people came up with the whole "responsible for their own actions" bit is because of sentiment like this one:
Which is 100% false, OF COURSE you can lock people up anyway. But, giving it a nice friendly "reason" makes people "feel better" about the whole thing.
You can argue about "LEVELS" of responsibly, but your just being diluted if you think your environment does not effect you at all.
The reasons behind 'responsibility for their actions' and 'change the mind, change the environment' notions are to counter point and offer solutions to what seems to be a desire to propergate racism and blame. Who's really diluted?
So I could be a million dollar playboy and never work if I wanted to? Wow, I guess I should do that then......... Oh, wait......
What your born into drastically affects your life. The reason people came up with the whole "responsible for their own actions" bit is because of sentiment like this one:
Yea, it does affect your life and your decisions. But you still make those decisions, therefore you are responsible for them. If you make a choice, why would you not be held accountable for it?
Skullclamp cannot really be considered a best for it was banned upon release. I think the best card/most broken card on that list has to be Bloodbraid Elf. That card was too busted.
The reasons behind 'responsibility for their actions' and 'change the mind, change the environment' notions are to counter point and offer solutions to what seems to be a desire to propergate racism and blame. Who's really diluted?
Yea, it does affect your life and your decisions. But you still make those decisions, therefore you are responsible for them. If you make a choice, why would you not be held accountable for it?
Humans holding other humans "accountable" for stuff does not have anything to do with people having control over their life or not.
What your born into drastically affects your life.
But what you are born into does nothing to stop your from changing that situation.
At least in this country.
Which is 100% false, OF COURSE you can lock people up anyway. But, giving it a nice friendly "reason" makes people "feel better" about the whole thing.
Theres a reason we have a judicial system, ya know.
You can argue about "LEVELS" of responsibly, but your just being diluted if you think your environment does not affect you at all.
Never said it didn't.
But it doesn't force you to do anything. And it doesn't stop you from attaining things that are accesible to everyone else in this country.
It may make it harder, yes. But I never argued against that, either.
There being a law about shooting people or not does not prove or disprove free will. Stop being silly.
We are talking about societal free will. You asked for an example, I gave one. And instead of disproving it, you sidestep it with an emoticon.
Nice.
If you are talking about cosmic free will or whatever, then you should probably be heading to that thread.
"Brainwashing" is just an extreme example of how your environment affects you. But, yes, I am saying that if you grow up around high powered lawyers you'll have a different outlook on life than if you grow up around drug dealers. Since, you know, it's true.
Again, this point is not in contention.
But theres this thing called the law to persuade people against adopting certain bad habits from others. If they choose to ignore it, then that is not societies fault. It is their own.
What more do you want society to do?
Umm... yes it does?
If you have a 1/10000 chance of winning that has a correlation on your ability to be able to, as apposed to a 1/2 chance.
We aren't talking about the lottery. We are talking about free will.
HUGE difference. Nice try though.
I don't know, it makes more sense to me than your claim the past as no affect on the future.
You have a real bad habit of putting words in peoples mouths.
I never said it didn't. Not once. But the affect of white people on black culture has diminished to a point where it is negligible.
Jace on the other hand gives you card advantage for no life cost. On the contrary, Jace can actually take some damage for you. I'd think that makes him better than Arena.
Yes, I read it. Ya know, I wondered why if at the end it didn't matter, why you brought it up again? Seems the problem was addressed and a general consensus reached for a possiable solution. Other than a dead horse, what do you bring to the table?
You may want to rethink your last sentence. I can't even begin to explain how wrong that is.
But it doesn't force you to do anything. And it doesn't stop you from attaining things that are accesible to everyone else in this country.
You're using loaded terms. What does "forced" even mean in this context? Here, let me reword your statement into my point to see if it helps get it across:
"But it does coerced you to do anything. And it does hinder you from attaining things that are accesible to everyone else in this country."
That's what I am saying, not what you said.
We are talking about societal free will. You asked for an example, I gave one. And instead of disproving it, you sidestep it with an emoticon.
Let me see if I can recap this part of the conversation so we can get on the same page. I said "your not 100% responsible for your own actions." You said "the legal system says you are so you are" I said "The legal system is not the authority on free will, your example is not applicable." To which your responed "You asked for an example and I gave you one."
But, you're example has nothing to do with my statement. The fact that men have a legal system that holds people accountable does NOT mean, ultimately, that people ARE accountable.
Heck, the system does not even hold people 100% accountable 100% of the time anyway.
Example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_Orders
You have a real bad habit of putting words in peoples mouths.
I never said it didn't. Not once. But the affect of white people on black culture has diminished to a point where it is negligible.
At least I did not accuse you of talking about the lotto.
Anyway, you did at least imply it. You said all that inequality stuff was in the past, and implied that that past stuff has no barring on the present.
Are you amending that? Are you saying that past stuff DOES affect the present?
Taylor,
Yes, I read it. Ya know, I wondered why if at the end it didn't matter, why you brought it up again?
Because I think that's the real problem with the "not my problem" attitude we are seeing on this thread. They don't want to help anyone because they don't think they themselves got any help.
Its a classic "everyone should pull themselves up by their own bootstraps" mindset.
They only seem to care about "personal responsibility" and seem unable to get passed it.
You may want to rethink your last sentence. I can't even begin to explain how wrong that is.
Well, I think your going to have to start. You see, I have a very think head. I don't think anything I said is wrong and you saying "you're wrong" has not convinced me.
Can you try to explain why? Or is your best comeback for what I said really just "GTFO?"
Taylor,
Yes, I read it. Ya know, I wondered why if at the end it didn't matter, why you brought it up again?
Because I think that's the real problem with the "not my problem" attitude we are seeing on this thread. They don't want to help anyone because they don't think they themselves got any help.
Its a classic "everyone should pull themselves up by their own bootstraps" mindset.
They only seem to care about "personal responsibility" and seem unable to get passed it.
I don’t see a “NMP” attitude. As much as it may be a dead horse the topic, it’s hot again. And, after an 18 hour pause in posts in this thread followed by a hesitant post to test the waters… I feel I see the entire debate finally made progress and people realized ‘the way “past it”.’ You think of that?
People don’t mind helping others as long as they’re helping themselves. Don’t you know this? Don’t you see it? Don’t you understand? I feel people have shared this sentiment quite often lately. I don’t believe there's anything isolationist about that and, I don’t think others do either.
Yea, it does affect your life and your decisions. But you still make those decisions, therefore you are responsible for them. If you make a choice, why would you not be held accountable for it?
Humans holding other humans "accountable" for stuff does not have anything to do with people having control over their life or not.
You may want to rethink your last sentence. I can't even begin to explain how wrong that is.
Well, I think your going to have to start. You see, I have a very think head. I don't think anything I said is wrong and you saying "you're wrong" has not convinced me.
Can you try to explain why? Or is your best comeback for what I said really just "GTFO?"
Let me try putting it how you can understand… If you step in ☺☺☺☺, someone may get a stick but, who gets it off your shoe?
No one is physically forcing black people to commit crime. Because they get convicted for drug offenses more is of no consequence to this.
So if no one is forcing black people to commit crime, it also follows that no one is physically stopping them from gaining employment.
It appears you're trying hard to be an apologist for criminality.
I'm not excusing criminality, I'm simply pointing out that if the same people do the same thing, and one person gets denied employment, education, housing, etc. because of it, and the other gets away with no consequences, that's an unfair burden on the first person. That's true even if the thing both of them did was wrong.
You start off by first posting the 13%/60% statistic, in the middle of a debate about how 'whitey' is still bringing people down, and offered no explanation of said statistic.
Isn't that a safe bet to assume you were contributing that to malicious racism?
Although now that you've cleared that up, we can cut a lot of chaff from this debate. Because it seem's like we are mostly on the same page.
No, I don't think that's a fair assumption at all.
Yes. And I agree.
Although I would probably blame the current system less, and past systems more.
It's all the same. To the person whose life is impacted, it doesn't matter whether it's the "current" or "past" system.
Because, for instance, if violent crime rates were to suddenly sky-rocket in a predominantly white community (not to say they are not already sometimes pretty high), then the arrest and conviction ratios would change to reflect that.
The number one job for law enforcement is public safety. When public safety becomes compromised, police interaction goes up to combat this. Regardless of the skin color of the community. Again, this seems like pretty basic common sense.
This does not explain how it is that a higher police presence does not result in a higher rate of arrest. The arrest rate will always be some percentage of the actual crime rate. If one area has lots of police, the arrest rate will be a higher percentage of the actual crime rate than in an area with fewer police.
Because with most drug offense, you are out same day, if not the next. Pretty much the epitome of revolving door.
But violent offense carry much steeper punishments, and takes those criminals out of circulation for much longer periods.
This is not true.
The average incarceration for federal drug possession sentences is 81 months, and the average incarceration for state drug possession sentences is about twenty months.
Difficult, yes. But that doesn't stop us from trying :wink:.
Although I think you would shoulder the burden of proof on this one to show me that arrest rates for violent crimes are not proportionate to the actual, real rate of those offenses.
I disagree. We have numbers that show that other crimes do not have an arrest rate that is well-correlated to actual crime rate. You put forth an explanation for that which applies equally well to violent crimes.
{G}PiLeDrIvEr, you don't have absolute free will (one might argue you don't have any free will, but let's table that). You are a product of your environment. If you where born in 1800's you'd not be the man you are today. The same is true if your parents were super rich or super poor or whatever.
This is a fact. If you're born in a ☺☺☺☺ty home, you are LESS LIKELY to be a fully functional member of society. It's simply true.
People like this whole "responsibility for your own actions" bull☺☺☺☺ because it makes them feel better about prisons. The truth is we lock criminals up not, because they are "responsible for their own actions," (whatever the ☺☺☺☺ that means) but because we can't have them running around disrupting things. Whether or not they're a criminal because their mother did not love them or because they got a bad break does not matter, they still need to be locked up because that's the way we fix the problem.
Which leads us to the problem at hand. Is it the whiteman's fault many black people got a bad childhood, and thus are more likely to be criminals? Yes, yes it is. That is a simple fact, but it does not matter IN THE SLIGHTEST for fixing the problem.
Splain what the problem at hand is again? I don't understand what you mean. Also, what's your solution to "the problem"?
Do you have any suggestions or methods for breaking down racial barriers and improving national, social, and self prides? How about methods to instill positive morals and good work and personal ethics in the youth?
Personally, enough with the problems - let's hear some solutions and make an effort.
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it depends on the situation. I don't see welfare as a hand up in many cases.
it isn't volunteering if you are forced to do it.
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I should have said "Public assistance should not be a hand out but a hand up."
In many of 'those cases' the individuals probably think the world owes them something when, in fact, it doesn't.
They're more than likely the product of a 'what can my country do for me?' household.
To change the world we have to change ourselves. Part of that involves changing the way we think.
Where did I say anything about forcing? I said "asking."
Read my earlier post again and digest what it says. Really, think about it.
I would like to point out that in many areas this is not a vaild opption for people and can get them sued. By unions that are responcable for cleaning up the area/public park ect. Often these things have crimnal background checks and sterotypicaly many of these people have records. Likely its not that they can't help its that there are barrarers in place to stop them from doing so.
Maybe but, it is an excuse.
No excuses.
Everyone, no matter what their background, can help make a positive change in society.
There’s nothing preventing outlaws from aiding in other public groups. Hell, if they had probation and did community service - regardless if they finished or not - they have a list of agencies that will work within their legal scope.
If they found religion on the inside then it’s still there on the outside. Religious ex-convicts can find churches and volunteer with their groups.
This isn’t limited to ex-cons but covers everyone. Anyone can tap those resources.
If not for your own self worth then volunteer for the benefit of those around you.
That’s taking action and aiding in leading the nation in a responsible direction.
Gonna catch some game before work now. Cheers!
That's what I said. Slavery.
Plus, it's job skills or at least self-sufficiency skills. Teach a man to fish and all that.
Very Well Then I Contradict Myself.
No one is physically forcing black people to commit crime. Because they get convicted for drug offenses more is of no consequence to this.
So if no one is forcing black people to commit crime, it also follows that no one is physically stopping them from gaining employment.
It appears you're trying hard to be an apologist for criminality.
You start off by first posting the 13%/60% statistic, in the middle of a debate about how 'whitey' is still bringing people down, and offered no explanation of said statistic.
Isn't that a safe bet to assume you were contributing that to malicious racism?
Although now that you've cleared that up, we can cut a lot of chaff from this debate. Because it seem's like we are mostly on the same page.
Yes. And I agree.
Although I would probably blame the current system less, and past systems more.
For you, maybe not.
But many others seem to enjoy that game. It truly confounds me.
And when you don't, you really shouldn't be doing it.
Or at all, for that matter. But thats beside the point.
Inherent racism is in our very genes.
But as I said earlier, I would imagine the force that has a heavier effect on this situation is the previous system that was accepted.
See above.
I'm glad you clarified it, but I still have not seen an explanation as to why you believe that statistic to be the way it is.
No doubt.
But then again, I recongnized that from the start.
But my belief is that hard work and dedication is more then enough to break those bonds. Life isn't fair, or easy. But it becomes much harder when you stop fighting for yourself.
Because, for instance, if violent crime rates were to suddenly sky-rocket in a predominantly white community (not to say they are not already sometimes pretty high), then the arrest and conviction ratios would change to reflect that.
The number one job for law enforcement is public safety. When public safety becomes compromised, police interaction goes up to combat this. Regardless of the skin color of the community. Again, this seems like pretty basic common sense.
Because with most drug offense, you are out same day, if not the next. Pretty much the epitome of revolving door.
But violent offense carry much steeper punishments, and takes those criminals out of circulation for much longer periods.
Difficult, yes. But that doesn't stop us from trying :wink:.
Although I think you would shoulder the burden of proof on this one to show me that arrest rates for violent crimes are not proportionate to the actual, real rate of those offenses.
Yes, it's unfortunate that not everybody has access to the same tools for success.
But last time I checked, it doesn't take multiple generations to pull oneself out of poverty. In fact, I'm pretty sure you can nab a masters degree in about 4. And I'm also pretty sure that coming from poverty does not stop one from working 40 hours a week and spending wisely. Education really isn't as expensive as some would make you believe.
Personal accountability starts the moment you can actively work to better yourself. Before then, yes, it is a problem. And a sad one at that. But that's why society forces your child to get an education. If you can't force them as well, that's not really societies fault.
This is where I have to throw up a :rolleyes:.
You still really believe it is active racism that keeps black people out of those areas?
Because I know plenty that seem to prove you wrong. In fact, theres at least 7 that live on my street alone.
I wish I had a puppy dog emoticon to show you that I really CAN be cute.
{G}PiLeDrIvEr, you don't have absolute free will (one might argue you don't have any free will, but let's table that). You are a product of your environment. If you where born in 1800's you'd not be the man you are today. The same is true if your parents were super rich or super poor or whatever.
This is a fact. If you're born in a ☺☺☺☺ty home, you are LESS LIKELY to be a fully functional member of society. It's simply true.
People like this whole "responsibility for your own actions" bull☺☺☺☺ because it makes them feel better about prisons. The truth is we lock criminals up not, because they are "responsible for their own actions," (whatever the ☺☺☺☺ that means) but because we can't have them running around disrupting things. Whether or not they're a criminal because their mother did not love them or because they got a bad break does not matter, they still need to be locked up because that's the way we fix the problem.
Which leads us to the problem at hand. Is it the whiteman's fault many black people got a bad childhood, and thus are more likely to be criminals? Yes, yes it is. That is a simple fact, but it does not matter IN THE SLIGHTEST for fixing the problem.
People aren't responsible for their actions?
Icky collectivism. I am not at fault for anyone's bad childhood. Or at least not that I am aware.
It is, however, the fault of the State that kept the black man in bondage for generations and indeed still does.
Not entirely no. It's just statically not true.
We just claim they are "100% responsible" to justify our solutions. But, that claim is just a construct; it has no bases in fact.
What does your awareness have to do with anything?
Technically, you do.
But to live and prosper in a society such as this, you have to sacrifice some of that to reap the rewards.
And one of the things you need to sacrifice is the committing of an action that is deemed illegal under said society.
The environment being society.
And society says you should not be doing those things.
Of course it is.
But none of that takes away your ability to think critically, and realize that partaking in certain actions, that YOU choose to partake in, can either negatively of positively affect your life.
You are acting like the black community brain washes it's people into a certain way of thinking.
It can influence, yes. But it cannot force.
But you are still ABLE.
This doesn't make sense.
Both are true.
If you aren't responsible for your actions, then you cannot be locked up in the first place.
That may have been in the past, but today is radically different than yesterday.
Like I said earlier, it doesn't take multiple generations to pull oneself out of poverty. Over time, the white mans responsibility has dwindled to pretty much zero. The responsibility now solely rests in the hands of those who are in the position to make the most effective change.
Prove it.
You're acting like no one can be brainwashed, ever.
So? What does that have to do with what I said?
And I guess there are no innocent people in prison either....
From what I saw, you're example is saying that people don't have a choice of what situation they are born into. They always have a choice for what to do in their life, and are therefore held responsible for that choice.
What's physically stopping you from grabbing a gun and shooting a family member dead?
Nothing, save for the legal ramifications.
Sounds like free will to me.
Sure someone can.
But I'd like for you to try to prove to me that the black community is brainwashing it's people, en masse, towards detriment.
Because being less likely has no correlation to being able.
I don't get it...is this supposed to be a logical response?
So I could be a million dollar playboy and never work if I wanted to? Wow, I guess I should do that then......... Oh, wait......
What your born into drastically affects your life. The reason people came up with the whole "responsible for their own actions" bit is because of sentiment like this one:
Which is 100% false, OF COURSE you can lock people up anyway. But, giving it a nice friendly "reason" makes people "feel better" about the whole thing.
You can argue about "LEVELS" of responsibly, but your just being diluted if you think your environment does not affect you at all.
There being a law about shooting people or not does not prove or disprove free will. Stop being silly.
"Brainwashing" is just an extreme example of how your environment affects you. But, yes, I am saying that if you grow up around high powered lawyers you'll have a different outlook on life than if you grow up around drug dealers. Since, you know, it's true.
Umm... yes it does?
If you have a 1/10000 chance of winning that has a correlation on your ability to be able to, as apposed to a 1/2 chance.
I don't know, it makes more sense to me than your claim the past as no affect on the future.
Seems to me it happens everyday.
The reasons behind 'responsibility for their actions' and 'change the mind, change the environment' notions are to counter point and offer solutions to what seems to be a desire to propergate racism and blame. Who's really diluted?
Yea, it does affect your life and your decisions. But you still make those decisions, therefore you are responsible for them. If you make a choice, why would you not be held accountable for it?
Did you read my post?
The whole point of everything I am saying is that arguing about the "blame" is stupid and dumb. Fixing the problem anyway we can is what matters.
Humans holding other humans "accountable" for stuff does not have anything to do with people having control over their life or not.
But what you are born into does nothing to stop your from changing that situation.
At least in this country.
Theres a reason we have a judicial system, ya know.
Never said it didn't.
But it doesn't force you to do anything. And it doesn't stop you from attaining things that are accesible to everyone else in this country.
It may make it harder, yes. But I never argued against that, either.
We are talking about societal free will. You asked for an example, I gave one. And instead of disproving it, you sidestep it with an emoticon.
Nice.
If you are talking about cosmic free will or whatever, then you should probably be heading to that thread.
Again, this point is not in contention.
But theres this thing called the law to persuade people against adopting certain bad habits from others. If they choose to ignore it, then that is not societies fault. It is their own.
What more do you want society to do?
We aren't talking about the lottery. We are talking about free will.
HUGE difference. Nice try though.
You have a real bad habit of putting words in peoples mouths.
I never said it didn't. Not once. But the affect of white people on black culture has diminished to a point where it is negligible.
Yes, I read it. Ya know, I wondered why if at the end it didn't matter, why you brought it up again? Seems the problem was addressed and a general consensus reached for a possiable solution. Other than a dead horse, what do you bring to the table?
You may want to rethink your last sentence. I can't even begin to explain how wrong that is.
Can you explain the discrepancy between this sentence of yours and the facts of this matter?
Indeed, convenience.
You're using loaded terms. What does "forced" even mean in this context? Here, let me reword your statement into my point to see if it helps get it across:
"But it does coerced you to do anything. And it does hinder you from attaining things that are accesible to everyone else in this country."
That's what I am saying, not what you said.
Let me see if I can recap this part of the conversation so we can get on the same page. I said "your not 100% responsible for your own actions." You said "the legal system says you are so you are" I said "The legal system is not the authority on free will, your example is not applicable." To which your responed "You asked for an example and I gave you one."
But, you're example has nothing to do with my statement. The fact that men have a legal system that holds people accountable does NOT mean, ultimately, that people ARE accountable.
Heck, the system does not even hold people 100% accountable 100% of the time anyway.
Example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_Orders
All it can.
Nether am I. I am talking about difficulty level.
At least I did not accuse you of talking about the lotto.
Anyway, you did at least imply it. You said all that inequality stuff was in the past, and implied that that past stuff has no barring on the present.
Are you amending that? Are you saying that past stuff DOES affect the present?
Because I think that's the real problem with the "not my problem" attitude we are seeing on this thread. They don't want to help anyone because they don't think they themselves got any help.
Its a classic "everyone should pull themselves up by their own bootstraps" mindset.
They only seem to care about "personal responsibility" and seem unable to get passed it.
About the same you did, my opinion backed by my reasoning. I am sorry if you feel that's not good enough.
Also, in cause you did not notice, this whole thread is a dead horse, I mean, look at the title of it and look how far afield we are.
Well, I think your going to have to start. You see, I have a very think head. I don't think anything I said is wrong and you saying "you're wrong" has not convinced me.
Can you try to explain why? Or is your best comeback for what I said really just "GTFO?"
I don’t see a “NMP” attitude. As much as it may be a dead horse the topic, it’s hot again. And, after an 18 hour pause in posts in this thread followed by a hesitant post to test the waters… I feel I see the entire debate finally made progress and people realized ‘the way “past it”.’ You think of that?
People don’t mind helping others as long as they’re helping themselves. Don’t you know this? Don’t you see it? Don’t you understand? I feel people have shared this sentiment quite often lately. I don’t believe there's anything isolationist about that and, I don’t think others do either.
See above.
Let me try putting it how you can understand… If you step in ☺☺☺☺, someone may get a stick but, who gets it off your shoe?
I'm not excusing criminality, I'm simply pointing out that if the same people do the same thing, and one person gets denied employment, education, housing, etc. because of it, and the other gets away with no consequences, that's an unfair burden on the first person. That's true even if the thing both of them did was wrong.
No, I don't think that's a fair assumption at all.
It's all the same. To the person whose life is impacted, it doesn't matter whether it's the "current" or "past" system.
This does not explain how it is that a higher police presence does not result in a higher rate of arrest. The arrest rate will always be some percentage of the actual crime rate. If one area has lots of police, the arrest rate will be a higher percentage of the actual crime rate than in an area with fewer police.
This is not true.
http://www.onlinelawyersource.com/criminal_law/drug-possession/sentences.html
I disagree. We have numbers that show that other crimes do not have an arrest rate that is well-correlated to actual crime rate. You put forth an explanation for that which applies equally well to violent crimes.
Splain what the problem at hand is again? I don't understand what you mean. Also, what's your solution to "the problem"?
Do you have any suggestions or methods for breaking down racial barriers and improving national, social, and self prides? How about methods to instill positive morals and good work and personal ethics in the youth?
Personally, enough with the problems - let's hear some solutions and make an effort.