Your children, presuming you have any. (And that's just one that I can come up with that is extremely personal and direct for most.)
Yes, I thought I wrote that before, but I missed it. Children are the exception, because we technically own our children, laws are set up to let us control our children. We are responsible for their actions, and too teach them good from bad, and to take care of them. We are also responsible to teach them how to be an adult and work hard, so they aren't being a burden on society. We teach them to take care of their own responsibilities, be accountable for their own actions, and to not rely on others their entire life.
Of course you wouldn't of. But you wouldn't have had the chance to get to where you are now if someone hadn't taken some responsibility.
No, no one took responsibility for me or my actions besides myself. People helped me throughout my life, and helped me through times. But none of them had the obligation to help me out, nor should they have. I would have eventually gotten 'there" without their help. it would have been tougher and harder but, hey, whatcha gonna do? That's life. I wouldn't have wanted the help if they were forced to help me. It was so great because they chose to help me.
"Being responsible for someone else doesn't mean you do all the work for them. It simply means you offer a hand as necessary, or create a support network to let someone help themselves."
Ok, how is it good for society if the hard working people have to "offer their hand" or "create a support network" for the ones who don't want to work? Why would they ever actually get a job if they can just get free handouts and have some sort of network supporting their lives?
Skullclamp cannot really be considered a best for it was banned upon release. I think the best card/most broken card on that list has to be Bloodbraid Elf. That card was too busted.
Uhm, that's my point. Responsibility does not exist because of the presence or absence of payment of taxes. It doesn't stand to reasonable extension.
A % of your work goes to society.
Taxes are the monetary representation of your duty to society as a whole, and if you don't pay the ones you're required to, you go to jail. That's the cut you give society. In return for that % of your work, society has a responsibility to you.
If, for some reason, you and your fellow citizens don't like what society is doing with the % of your work, you have the right to change the Contract. Either through voting, or in the more extreme cases, rebellion.
This is the Social Contract, and its ALL about the duty you have to society and the duty society has to you.
So for those who have negative taxes (they get more back in money than what they give) do they the opposite of responsibility? Are they irresponsible for the well being of others in society?
No, that’s extra everyone pays in for themselves each year. There are other taxes that we wont see back until we retire. Or supposed to at least. Etc.
Responsibility for your fellow man is not logical. W are neither responsible to see that an individual is warm, fed and safe nor accountable. The sovriegn powers prevent the state from being sued.
Part of being a functioning member of society is taking part in a responsibility that the greater good has taken on even if it doesn‘t make sense. So, try to make sense of it the best you can.
One way is realizing that society takes it as a humanitarian effort in the community - at home and abroad. For religious, political, both, whatever/however - it’s part of what makes the modern world what it is.
If it’s still illogical after exploring all these avenues then I dunno… Maybe you’re being over analytical and ought to try to keep it simple?
In the end it still doesn’t matter if you like it or not or it makes sense or not - we are our brothers keepers. I think you know this already because…
The responsibility for your well being as an adult lies with you. As a child it starts off 100% of your parent(s) and migrates to 100% of you when you reach adulthood. (you cannot be negligent if you're under 4years old).
If I am responsible, then I can be negligent. If I am negligent, then I can be held accountable. Thusly I could be sued because you chose to not better yourself, commit crime, or otherwise be a menace to society.
With this my friend you’re absolutely right. This is another part of what makes up civic responsibilities (that‘s what they‘re called btw). It’s good to see you‘ve picked up on this and that your circuits are snapping right.
Impacted by what? The crime they choose to commit? Because last time I checked, poverty or a lack of a father figure is not an adequate excuse to break the law.
A black person who is arrested for a minor drug crime where a white person would not have been because of some "higher police interaction" theory is being impacted by the crimes others have committed. The point is that ultimately, regardless of the cause, drug arrests place a very high burden on black families, and do not place a very high burden on white families.
Less drug crime, maybe. But less crime overall, no.
You seemed to have dodged the point made about police interaction with crime-ridden societies.
The point is fairly simple. When you have more crime, you have more police interaction. And when you have more police interaction, you have higher arrest rates.
I don't see how this can be argued.
Living in a high crime area does not make an individual responsible for those crimes. If Bob Black Guy is arrested for marijuana possession, but Walter White Guy isn't, it's not because Bob has been out committing murders and assaults and robberies. Bob's child who is then left fatherless, while Walter's child is not, is even farther removed from guilt. Ultimately, the point here is that black children are shockingly likely to have a father in prison for drugs, despite the fact that that father as an individual is not any more likely to be involved in drugs than a white father. This is a systematic, pronounced disadvantage facing black children.
Furthermore, it is worth noting that if the black drug arrest rate is inflated by this police interaction theory, or whatever other reason you might want to give, it is reasonable to assume that the black arrest rate for other crimes in general is similarly inflated. While it is not too difficult to obtain actual drug use rates by way of survey (since people are generally willing to admit to that in an anonymous setting), there is no corresponding way to gather statistics about actual crime rate for more serious offenses like murder or robbery. As such, while I don't doubt that blacks are probably over-represented as perpetrators of more serious crimes, I would caution against drawing that conclusion from statistics based on arrest rates or similar figures. Even so, the reported arrest rates for other crimes, are nowhere near as disproportional as the black arrest rate for drugs, so I question whether that's a full explanation.
You are saying there re higher conviction rates for black people because our system is full of White racists. Correct? Well they actually are convicted more because they get caught more, which is no way white people's fault. Please tell me if I'm misunderstanding you.
Where do you come up with these interpretations of what I say? Quote for me where I say the system is full of white racists.
What? Your saying black people have higher crime rates because they get arrested more? They are getting arrested for committing the crimes, not the other way around.
A black person is not only more likely to be arrested for a drug offense, they are also more likely to have a prior drug offense, because of that disparity in arrest rates. That prior offense results in an even wider disparity in prison time. In other words, if a black and white person both do drugs, over the period of time in which the white person will on average be arrested once, the black person will on average be arrested multiple times, which will compound their sentence.
They make the same drug related decisions, but they don't get caught, that is why there conviction rate is less, not because of white people.
Why do you think they don't get caught?
You said they should be only 13% of convictions, for the system to be more equitable. But it doesn't work that way. The people who get convicted are the ones who get caught. If only 13% of black people were convicted, but 60% are caught (which is apparently the case, because that is how many are convicted), then there would be black people that are caught bot not convicted. Which is reverse racism, unless there is another reason not to convict the black drug users.
First of all, I don't think you understand how percentages work. Saying that "13% of black people were convicted" is not the same as saying that black people comprise 13% of convictions. Those mean completely different things.
Secondly, I am obviously saying that if things were equitable, not only would blacks be 13% of convictions, they would also be 13% of arrests, and 13% of prosecutions.
A black person who is arrested for a minor drug crime where a white person would not have been because of some "higher police interaction" theory is being impacted by the crimes others have committed. The point is that ultimately, regardless of the cause, drug arrests place a very high burden on black families, and do not place a very high burden on white families.
Now, ascend to forty-thousand feet and hold altitude for the big picture.
Look down and think, “demographics and concentrations of.“
Color is not an argument. People are given the same options and choices in life. They are ultimately rewarded or punished accordingly to their decisions. Legally, socially, that’s at age 18. However, the ability to make deference between right and wrong begins at home at an early age.
A lack of social ethics in poor communities - both black and white - stems from previous generations and their loss of focus on and sense of community spirit and their dependence on social programs because that‘s the only thing they‘ve known.
The only reason conditions are what they are where they are is because of continued exposure to social problems caused by negative social behaviors and the lasting effects of a lowered moral.
This is not saying that community pride doesn’t or hasn’t existed. It’s just saying it’s diminished over time because of social apathy.
A good thing is lately there’s been more of an emphasis back to the basics and addressing community pride. There’s a resurgence of this along with a realization of what we as a society needs to do and are doing it.
I really cannot say much to the rest of your post. Crime isn’t discriminatory, man is.
Color is not an argument. People are given the same options and choices in life. They are ultimately rewarded or punished accordingly to their decisions. Legally, socially, that’s at age 18. However, the ability to make deference between right and wrong begins at home at an early age.
People are not given the same options and choices. A child whose father is imprisoned is not being given the same education about right and wrong. It is foolish to say these things are equal across the board.
A lack of social ethics in poor communities - both black and white - stems from previous generations and their loss of focus on and sense of community spirit and their dependence on social programs because that‘s the only thing they‘ve known.
The only reason conditions are what they are where they are is because of continued exposure to social problems caused by negative social behaviors and the lasting effects of a lowered moral.
This is not saying that community pride doesn’t or hasn’t existed. It’s just saying it’s diminished over time because of social apathy.
A good thing is lately there’s been more of an emphasis back to the basics and addressing community pride. There’s a resurgence of this along with a realization of what we as a society needs to do and are doing it.
I'm not saying that things like community effort and personal responsibility aren't also at play here. Of course those things are a factor, and they're very important. My point, however, is that it's silly to claim that all are presented with equal footing and opportunity, and say that it is only by their own doing that certain communities are struggling.
The fact is that significant racial disparity is still a very real thing in America. We might not have Jim Crow laws on the books anymore, but that doesn't mean that the effects of the past have magically disappeared. People who are alive today, who are raising children and grandchildren, and who are passing on their lot in life, through educational opportunity, inheritance, and social standing, to their families, were the victims of blatant, wide-spread racism. It was less than 50 years ago that the Civil Rights Act was passed. People who are alive today were denied basic access to education, voting, and other critical things.
That legacy continues to be passed down to the new generations. If your parents are not educated, you are worse off. This is not a controversial fact. If your parents are not educated because of segregation in schools, and you suffer from that, it is absolutely true that you are facing an uphill struggle as the result of institutional racism. The effects of segregated schools did not disappear in 1954, they are still with us today. It is appalling ignorant to, as some have done in this thread, pretend that the past no longer affects us.
People are not given the same options and choices. A child whose father is imprisoned is not being given the same education about right and wrong. It is foolish to say these things are equal across the board.
This doesn't even make any sense. That is probably the ultimate lesson. if you do wrong then you can go to jail.
You choose to do right or wrong. you know that it is wrong to take something that isn't yours. You know that it is wrong to do or even distribute drugs. Yet people still make these choices of their own free will.
there isn't some white guy with a gun to their head forcing them to do it.
the blame the white guy game is over. it has no substance at this point. the responsibility for getting their community back on track is up to them. there are plenty of groups will to help out and get things back on track.
Instead of turning to the real leaders for their community they turn to people like al sharpton and jesse jackson.
I'm not saying that things like community effort and personal responsibility aren't also at play here.
so far you have.
People who are alive today were denied basic access to education, voting, and other critical things
so are you going to be making this excuse 100 years from now as well? when do the excuses stop?
sure they had it bad, and yes they had it rough. to me they wouldn't want their children to suffer the same things they went through and to make things better for them.
they fought and won the rights to do certain things yet they have let that slip over the past 50 years.
The mentality isn't the same now as it was then. it has gotten worse. although there is a surge to get things changed. it is meeting heavy resistance from those that would rather keep the racial war going.
i know quite a few successfull black people. there are others out there as well. trying to make a difference. yet they are met with hate and met as outsiders because they broke the mold.
it is a mentality and a mind set that has to be changed in the community and culturally and until that happens they will continue to have problems.
Taxes are the monetary representation of your duty to society as a whole, and if you don't pay the ones you're required to, you go to jail.
This isn't a very good arguement to make as 40% of america either pays no tax at all or gets more back than what they did pay in.
so i guess that 40% is not upholding their part of the contract?
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Black people are still feeling the effects of being forced into the lowest of all social classes for hundreds of years. A status as property without any legal rights or protections from even the worst of crimes is not something you simply spring back from. The kind of society that would allow such a thing doesn't magically become a utopia of harmony, either. Black people have for these reasons not had the level of economic and household stability that white people built on slavery and the social system that allowed for slavery.
So, you agree that there is nothing pysically stopping black people from elevating themselves in society?
What you said basically amount to 'it's all in their head.'
Which it is.
I'm not saying that there is no difference between cultures. What I AM saying is that it is not currently the fault of the white community.
The black community did not start this problem, but it seems that the majority (at least those in poverty) refuse to take responsibility for their situation. They would much rather sit there and blame the major 'flaws' in the system, when there really are no such flaws.
Unfortunately, life isn't always fair. Poverty and family instability may foster a negative attitude in regards to established education, but that does nothing in taking those opportunities away.
That the both of you don't understand this obvious fact is just depressing and means that you unfortunately can't participate in a meaningful discussion on how to address these problems.
That you can't see how any of this boils down to personal accountability is quite depressing to me, and means that unfortunately you won't be able to have a logical discussion on the matter.
Jace on the other hand gives you card advantage for no life cost. On the contrary, Jace can actually take some damage for you. I'd think that makes him better than Arena.
A black person who is arrested for a minor drug crime where a white person would not have been because of some "higher police interaction" theory is being impacted by the crimes others have committed. The point is that ultimately, regardless of the cause, drug arrests place a very high burden on black families, and do not place a very high burden on white families.
The cause is very relevant to the discussion. Nice try in trying to dismiss it, though.
Living in a high crime area does not make an individual responsible for those crimes.
It does when they are the one that commits them.
Police don't just nab black people from the sidewalk and throw them in jail, as much as you may think they do. If I live in a high crime area, with a high police concentration, I wouldn't mind at all (other than the high crime part), because I don't do anything that would throw me in jail.
If Bob Black Guy is arrested for marijuana possession, but Walter White Guy isn't, it's not because Bob has been out committing murders and assaults and robberies. Bob's child who is then left fatherless, while Walter's child is not, is even farther removed from guilt.
How is being fatherless an excuse to break the law?
I still don't understand this logic. Being raised without a father removes your critical thinking abilities?
Ultimately, the point here is that black children are shockingly likely to have a father in prison for drugs, despite the fact that that father as an individual is not any more likely to be involved in drugs than a white father. This is a systematic, pronounced disadvantage facing black children.
Which has already been addressed.
Furthermore, it is worth noting that if the black drug arrest rate is inflated by this police interaction theory, or whatever other reason you might want to give, it is reasonable to assume that the black arrest rate for other crimes in general is similarly inflated.
Police are not omni-present. They go to the areas with the highest crime rates. Thus, there are more arrests when you have an area that has a higher crime rate.
And it's not a theory, it's common sense.
While it is not too difficult to obtain actual drug use rates by way of survey (since people are generally willing to admit to that in an anonymous setting), there is no corresponding way to gather statistics about actual crime rate for more serious offenses like murder or robbery.
I'll be more than happy to look those up for you, but it will have to wait until tommorrow, since I have work early.
As such, while I don't doubt that blacks are probably over-represented as perpetrators of more serious crimes, I would caution against drawing that conclusion from statistics based on arrest rates or similar figures.
Jace on the other hand gives you card advantage for no life cost. On the contrary, Jace can actually take some damage for you. I'd think that makes him better than Arena.
The cause is very relevant to the discussion. Nice try in trying to dismiss it, though.
The original point made was that black people do not face any systematic disadvantage. If the average black person who uses drugs faces a much greater risk of incarceration than the average white person who uses drugs, that's a systematic disadvantage. It doesn't matter whether other black people commit other crimes, or whether black people are subject to more police scrutiny. The bottom line is that that puts a lot of black children into a fatherless family. Had those children been born to white parents, many of them would not be in that position. This disadvantage is real regardless of the reason.
It does when they are the one that commits them.
Police don't just nab black people from the sidewalk and throw them in jail, as much as you may think they do. If I live in a high crime area, with a high police concentration, I wouldn't mind at all (other than the high crime part), because I don't do anything that would throw me in jail.
The people who are being arrested and put in jail for minor drug crimes are not all the same people who are out committing serious crimes. It is not their fault that they live in a high crime area.
Yes, people shouldn't do drugs. But people do, white and black alike. The difference is that white people are much more likely to get away with it, and go on raising their family.
Further, the justice system is not perfect. Innocent people do go to jail all the time. I'm not saying it's because of some vast racism conspiracy or anything, but it is a real issue, and it does happen.
How is being fatherless an excuse to break the law?
I still don't understand this logic. Being raised without a father removes your critical thinking abilities?
What does this have to do with what I said? I am absolutely not saying that being fatherless is an excuse to break the law. I am saying that if your father is put in jail, that's not your fault, but it does put you at a disadvantage. If a white father in the same situation would not have been put in jail, that's not a "cultural" issue, that's an inherent disadvantage you've suffered because of your race.
I'm not saying it's because some police officer somewhere hates black people and decides to throw them in jail for no reason. The structure of the system in place, however, is such that the disparate affect on the races is very real.
Police are not omni-present. They go to the areas with the highest crime rates. Thus, there are more arrests when you have an area that has a higher crime rate.
And it's not a theory, it's common sense.
I don't see how this is a response to what was quoted. My point is that if you claim that the black drug arrest rate is inflated because of high police presence, you must also accept that the black arrest rate for other crimes is similarly inflated.
I'll be more than happy to look those up for you, but it will have to wait until tommorrow, since I have work early.
I will be very surprised to see those statistics. Note that I am talking about actual crime rates, not arrest rates or reporting rates or conviction rates. When talking about drug rates, it's important that we have both the actual use percentage (13%) and the arrest/conviction percentage (~60%). The problem would not be clear if we only had arrest/conviction percentages.
The original point made was that black people do not face any systematic disadvantage.
They DO face disadvantages. Those disadvantages are formed in the family, not outside in the working world. Change in the family can only come from the family. Society can only do so much.
No one is physically stopping black people from getting a job, working hard, or working hard in school, and going to college.
The original debate was centered around white people and how big of a role they still play in this disadvantage.
If the average black person who uses drugs faces a much greater risk of incarceration than the average white person who uses drugs, that's a systematic disadvantage.
Brought about by whom?
It doesn't matter whether other black people commit other crimes, or whether black people are subject to more police scrutiny. The bottom line is that that puts a lot of black children into a fatherless family. Had those children been born to white parents, many of them would not be in that position. This disadvantage is real regardless of the reason.
Again, I never stated disadvantages don't exist. Because they do. It's unfortunate, yes.
But playing the blame game is no way to bring about change. Racism plays no part in these disadvantages. It's just an easy scape goat for those that don't want to take responsibility for the situations that they inevitably put themselves in.
The people who are being arrested and put in jail for minor drug crimes are not all the same people who are out committing serious crimes. It is not their fault that they live in a high crime area.
This makes no sense logically. Crime is crime. It doesn't matter what brings such heavy police presence, just that it's there. And if you get caught, you are going to jail.
Yes, people shouldn't do drugs. But people do, white and black alike. The difference is that white people are much more likely to get away with it, and go on raising their family.
Which isn't brought about by racism.
Further, the justice system is not perfect. Innocent people do go to jail all the time. I'm not saying it's because of some vast racism conspiracy or anything, but it is a real issue, and it does happen.
Innocent people of all colors.
Of course the system isn't perfect. Nothing is. But thats not what is being argued. Racism is. Widespread racism, at that.
What does this have to do with what I said? I am absolutely not saying that being fatherless is an excuse to break the law.
Then we agree.
I am saying that if your father is put in jail, that's not your fault, but it does put you at a disadvantage.
Of course it's not. And of course it does.
But that's not racism. That's called cause and effect.
I'm not saying it's because some police officer somewhere hates black people and decides to throw them in jail for no reason. The structure of the system in place, however, is such that the disparate affect on the races is very real.
Then you agree it's not caused from blatant racism.
Finally we are making some progress.
I don't see how this is a response to what was quoted. My point is that if you claim that the black drug arrest rate is inflated because of high police presence, you must also accept that the black arrest rate for other crimes is similarly inflated.
Except you are missing the point. Non drug related crimes are not inflated at all. If crime rates were even between white and black communities, then so would arrests.
But they aren't. Crime rates among black communities are usually higher, which brings about more arrests.
Drug arrests may be, but that is caused by higher crime rates across the board in those communities. It's unfortunate, yes, but if these people were not breaking the law in the first place, they wouldn't have to deal with this inflation.
I will be very surprised to see those statistics. Note that I am talking about actual crime rates, not arrest rates or reporting rates or conviction rates. When talking about drug rates, it's important that we have both the actual use percentage (13%) and the arrest/conviction percentage (~60%). The problem would not be clear if we only had arrest/conviction percentages.
It'd be much harder to find an actual crime rate then it is to find an actual drug use rate. People don't exactly admit to committing serious crime when asked.
The best thing you are probably going to get is arrest rates.
Jace on the other hand gives you card advantage for no life cost. On the contrary, Jace can actually take some damage for you. I'd think that makes him better than Arena.
A black person is not only more likely to be arrested for a drug offense, they are also more likely to have a prior drug offense, because of that disparity in arrest rates. That prior offense results in an even wider disparity in prison time. In other words, if a black and white person both do drugs, over the period of time in which the white person will on average be arrested once, the black person will on average be arrested multiple times, which will compound their sentence.
Skullclamp cannot really be considered a best for it was banned upon release. I think the best card/most broken card on that list has to be Bloodbraid Elf. That card was too busted.
The bottom line is that that puts a lot of black children into a fatherless family. Had those children been born to white parents, many of them would not be in that position. This disadvantage is real regardless of the reason.
Do you really want to argue this? Whether in jail or not in jail a father committing such crimes is going to have little positive influence on the kids.
If anything he would be an example of what not to do.
Yes i know the statistics for fathers being in kids lives, However those are only good if the fathers aren't committing crimes themselves.
this is a really bad stance for you to be argueing from.
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Do you really want to argue this? Whether in jail or not in jail a father committing such crimes is going to have little positive influence on the kids.
If anything he would be an example of what not to do.
Yes i know the statistics for fathers being in kids lives, However those are only good if the fathers aren't committing crimes themselves.
this is a really bad stance for you to be argueing from.
It's not about children having parents in jail, it's about children being raised in an environment where parents do things that can get them in jail. If you grow up watching mommy smoke crack or watching daddy steal cars, you will be more likely to commit such crimes growing up.
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It is always easy to be tolerant and understanding...Until someone presents an opinion completely opposite to your own.
They DO face disadvantages. Those disadvantages are formed in the family, not outside in the working world. Change in the family can only come from the family. Society can only do so much.
No one is physically stopping black people from getting a job, working hard, or working hard in school, and going to college.
If you have a drug conviction that does stop you from doing those things. Once you have a drug conviction, you can be legally discriminated against for all of these things.
The original debate was centered around white people and how big of a role they still play in this disadvantage.
The original post I responded to was mystery saying the problems in the black community were "cultural", and that external factors did not exist.
Brought about by whom?
The disadvantage is brought about by the inherent unfairness of the system. Just because there is not some nefarious person sitting there plotting how to screw over black people does not mean that the end result cannot be unfairly racially biased. For example, juries tend to punish black people more harshly than white people, even when all other factors are the same. It's not because jurors are raving racists. It's that most everyone has subtle, even subconscious prejudices about race, and those make small impacts on how they vote in a jury.
Again, I never stated disadvantages don't exist. Because they do. It's unfortunate, yes.
But playing the blame game is no way to bring about change. Racism plays no part in these disadvantages. It's just an easy scape goat for those that don't want to take responsibility for the situations that they inevitably put themselves in.
It's not "playing the blame game", it's pointing out problems that need to be addressed.
This makes no sense logically. Crime is crime. It doesn't matter what brings such heavy police presence, just that it's there. And if you get caught, you are going to jail.
But crime is not all the same. Some people have the advantage of being able to get away with it.
Which isn't brought about by racism.
Not by blatant individual racism, no. But certainly by inherent racism in the structure of our police and justice system.
Innocent people of all colors.
Of course the system isn't perfect. Nothing is. But thats not what is being argued. Racism is. Widespread racism, at that.
Then we agree.
Of course it's not. And of course it does.
But that's not racism. That's called cause and effect.
Then you agree it's not caused from blatant racism.
Finally we are making some progress.
I don't know where you came up with the idea that I thought this was about blatantly racist cops or juries or whatever. The thing that needs to be recognized is that that sort of blatant racism is not the only kind that exists, and not the only kind that can have a real effect on people's lives.
Except you are missing the point. Non drug related crimes are not inflated at all. If crime rates were even between white and black communities, then so would arrests.
But they aren't. Crime rates among black communities are usually higher, which brings about more arrests.
Drug arrests may be, but that is caused by higher crime rates across the board in those communities. It's unfortunate, yes, but if these people were not breaking the law in the first place, they wouldn't have to deal with this inflation.
How do you know that non-drug related crime rates are not inflated at all? You just pulled that "fact" out of thin air. How is it that the extra police presence produces a disproportionate number of drug arrests, but has no effect on arrests for other crimes?
It'd be much harder to find an actual crime rate then it is to find an actual drug use rate. People don't exactly admit to committing serious crime when asked.
The best thing you are probably going to get is arrest rates.
This is exactly my point. Arrest rates are not the same as actual crime rates, though. As the drug example shows, it is very difficult to correlate the two.
Hrm, yes, the "personal accountability" of children who are born to poor parents and into poor communities. It was really too bad that they chose to be raised by people who don't have the economic stability to do a good job of it due to themselves belonging to a group that has for hundreds of years been relegated to the lowest of all social ranks and actively been kept outside of academia, business and politics. This choice, arguably the first choice a person in this world makes, to me demonstrates a real lack of character. How regrettable.
You're trying to be cute with me but it's not going to work when you're wrong.
Skullclamp cannot really be considered a best for it was banned upon release. I think the best card/most broken card on that list has to be Bloodbraid Elf. That card was too busted.
It's partly everyone's fault; the child; the parent; the society; the times. That's how life works, its all inner connected.
It is exactly for that reason it does not MATTER who's fault it is and we all should do our part to fix it.
It's a fact that it's everyone's fault, but that fact is not applicable for the solution. You guys(myself included) keep arguing over that fact, but it does not matter in the slightest. Fixing the mess is what matters, not who made the mess.
Fixing the mess is what matters, not who made the mess.
While I agree with you on this, the impression I get is that the comments can be construed about who would be "responsible" for "fixing the mess". With the range being "individual" or "society". (I hold the later myself, to the extent that "society" should create a support network of some kind that an individual could ultimately utilize. The individual still must take the necessary steps, but "society" has to do more than just sit and watch.)
It's partly everyone's fault; the child; the parent; the society; the times. That's how life works, its all inner connected.
It is exactly for that reason it does not MATTER who's fault it is and we all should do our part to fix it.
It's a fact that it's everyone's fault, but that fact is not applicable for the solution. You guys(myself included) keep arguing over that fact, but it does not matter in the slightest. Fixing the mess is what matters, not who made the mess.
Well, i am trying to prove my point to the people that re just saying "it's white people fault". Which just isn't true, or specif enough. But I do think knowing who is to blame, today, can help find a solution.
While I agree with you on this, the impression I get is that the comments can be construed about who would be "responsible" for "fixing the mess". With the range being "individual" or "society". (I hold the later myself, to the extent that "society" should create a support network of some kind that an individual could ultimately utilize. The individual still must take the necessary steps, but "society" has to do more than just sit and watch.)
We don't just "sit and watch". There are plenty for programs that are in place to help people in these communities.
Skullclamp cannot really be considered a best for it was banned upon release. I think the best card/most broken card on that list has to be Bloodbraid Elf. That card was too busted.
But I do think knowing who is to blame, today, can help find a solution.
I've yet to see where finding someone to "blame" for a problem actually fixes the problem. Because most of the time people argue about whether or not the "blame" is warranted, rather than what can actually be done to fix the problem. And really, most of the people to "blame" for this are long dead. (Especially if everyone shares an extent in the "blame".)
We don't just "sit and watch". There are plenty for programs that are in place to help people in these communities.
Yeah, actually "we" do. Unless you actually take direct action to help, then you're just "sitting and watching" someone else do the work to provide that program or provide the assistance.
Yeah, actually "we" do. Unless you actually take direct action to help, then you're just "sitting and watching" someone else do the work to provide that program or provide the assistance.
No, actually "we" don't. If its at all government funded, then we by definition are taking action and supporting it. The *entire* reason we have the government funded programs is because not everyone *can* take X time and go out there and phyiscally do something.
I've yet to see where finding someone to "blame" for a problem actually fixes the problem. Because most of the time people argue about whether or not the "blame" is warranted, rather than what can actually be done to fix the problem. And really, most of the people to "blame" for this are long dead. (Especially if everyone shares an extent in the "blame".)
It gives us more insight to the actual problem, and therefore more insight on how to fix it. You have to know what the problem is before you can fix it. If we didn't know who was at the root of the problem, then we could never really fix the problem, only satisfy it temporarily.
Yeah, actually "we" do. Unless you actually take direct action to help, then you're just "sitting and watching" someone else do the work to provide that program or provide the assistance.
What? Plenty of mine and your tax dollars go to programs to help these communities. Things like food stamps, education, and the unemployed all strive on our tax dollars.
Skullclamp cannot really be considered a best for it was banned upon release. I think the best card/most broken card on that list has to be Bloodbraid Elf. That card was too busted.
It gives us more insight to the actual problem, and therefore more insight on how to fix it. You have to know what the problem is before you can fix it. If we didn't know who was at the root of the problem, then we could never really fix the problem, only satisfy it temporarily.
there is a differnece between knowing who/what is at the root of the problem, and knowing who/what causes the problem. They are related often, but not always.
For example: Knowing that white slave masters 100 years ago are the root for why blacks are currently in a worse soceo-economic state than whites doesn't help us, at all, to determine how we can help them get out of the worse soceo-economic state.
No, actually "we" don't. If its at all government funded, then we by definition are taking action and supporting it. The *entire* reason we have the government funded programs is because not everyone *can* take X time and go out there and phyiscally do something.
Really? So, do you take the time to examine the programs and provide feedback about their operation? Or make sure that oversight is being provided about how those tax dollars are being spent and to what extent the program is achieving appropriate performance measures?
It gives us more insight to the actual problem, and therefore more insight on how to fix it. You have to know what the problem is before you can fix it. If we didn't know who was at the root of the problem, then we could never really fix the problem, only satisfy it temporarily.
Please explain what insight your assessment of "blame" has provided into the root of the problem, and how to fix it.
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Yes, I thought I wrote that before, but I missed it. Children are the exception, because we technically own our children, laws are set up to let us control our children. We are responsible for their actions, and too teach them good from bad, and to take care of them. We are also responsible to teach them how to be an adult and work hard, so they aren't being a burden on society. We teach them to take care of their own responsibilities, be accountable for their own actions, and to not rely on others their entire life.
No, no one took responsibility for me or my actions besides myself. People helped me throughout my life, and helped me through times. But none of them had the obligation to help me out, nor should they have. I would have eventually gotten 'there" without their help. it would have been tougher and harder but, hey, whatcha gonna do? That's life. I wouldn't have wanted the help if they were forced to help me. It was so great because they chose to help me.
Than what point are you making?
Ok, how is it good for society if the hard working people have to "offer their hand" or "create a support network" for the ones who don't want to work? Why would they ever actually get a job if they can just get free handouts and have some sort of network supporting their lives?
Taxes are the monetary representation of your duty to society as a whole, and if you don't pay the ones you're required to, you go to jail. That's the cut you give society. In return for that % of your work, society has a responsibility to you.
If, for some reason, you and your fellow citizens don't like what society is doing with the % of your work, you have the right to change the Contract. Either through voting, or in the more extreme cases, rebellion.
This is the Social Contract, and its ALL about the duty you have to society and the duty society has to you.
...
No, that’s extra everyone pays in for themselves each year. There are other taxes that we wont see back until we retire. Or supposed to at least. Etc.
Part of being a functioning member of society is taking part in a responsibility that the greater good has taken on even if it doesn‘t make sense. So, try to make sense of it the best you can.
One way is realizing that society takes it as a humanitarian effort in the community - at home and abroad. For religious, political, both, whatever/however - it’s part of what makes the modern world what it is.
If it’s still illogical after exploring all these avenues then I dunno… Maybe you’re being over analytical and ought to try to keep it simple?
In the end it still doesn’t matter if you like it or not or it makes sense or not - we are our brothers keepers. I think you know this already because…
With this my friend you’re absolutely right. This is another part of what makes up civic responsibilities (that‘s what they‘re called btw). It’s good to see you‘ve picked up on this and that your circuits are snapping right.
A black person who is arrested for a minor drug crime where a white person would not have been because of some "higher police interaction" theory is being impacted by the crimes others have committed. The point is that ultimately, regardless of the cause, drug arrests place a very high burden on black families, and do not place a very high burden on white families.
Living in a high crime area does not make an individual responsible for those crimes. If Bob Black Guy is arrested for marijuana possession, but Walter White Guy isn't, it's not because Bob has been out committing murders and assaults and robberies. Bob's child who is then left fatherless, while Walter's child is not, is even farther removed from guilt. Ultimately, the point here is that black children are shockingly likely to have a father in prison for drugs, despite the fact that that father as an individual is not any more likely to be involved in drugs than a white father. This is a systematic, pronounced disadvantage facing black children.
Furthermore, it is worth noting that if the black drug arrest rate is inflated by this police interaction theory, or whatever other reason you might want to give, it is reasonable to assume that the black arrest rate for other crimes in general is similarly inflated. While it is not too difficult to obtain actual drug use rates by way of survey (since people are generally willing to admit to that in an anonymous setting), there is no corresponding way to gather statistics about actual crime rate for more serious offenses like murder or robbery. As such, while I don't doubt that blacks are probably over-represented as perpetrators of more serious crimes, I would caution against drawing that conclusion from statistics based on arrest rates or similar figures. Even so, the reported arrest rates for other crimes, are nowhere near as disproportional as the black arrest rate for drugs, so I question whether that's a full explanation.
Where do you come up with these interpretations of what I say? Quote for me where I say the system is full of white racists.
A black person is not only more likely to be arrested for a drug offense, they are also more likely to have a prior drug offense, because of that disparity in arrest rates. That prior offense results in an even wider disparity in prison time. In other words, if a black and white person both do drugs, over the period of time in which the white person will on average be arrested once, the black person will on average be arrested multiple times, which will compound their sentence.
Why do you think they don't get caught?
First of all, I don't think you understand how percentages work. Saying that "13% of black people were convicted" is not the same as saying that black people comprise 13% of convictions. Those mean completely different things.
Secondly, I am obviously saying that if things were equitable, not only would blacks be 13% of convictions, they would also be 13% of arrests, and 13% of prosecutions.
Now, ascend to forty-thousand feet and hold altitude for the big picture.
Look down and think, “demographics and concentrations of.“
Color is not an argument. People are given the same options and choices in life. They are ultimately rewarded or punished accordingly to their decisions. Legally, socially, that’s at age 18. However, the ability to make deference between right and wrong begins at home at an early age.
A lack of social ethics in poor communities - both black and white - stems from previous generations and their loss of focus on and sense of community spirit and their dependence on social programs because that‘s the only thing they‘ve known.
The only reason conditions are what they are where they are is because of continued exposure to social problems caused by negative social behaviors and the lasting effects of a lowered moral.
This is not saying that community pride doesn’t or hasn’t existed. It’s just saying it’s diminished over time because of social apathy.
A good thing is lately there’s been more of an emphasis back to the basics and addressing community pride. There’s a resurgence of this along with a realization of what we as a society needs to do and are doing it.
I really cannot say much to the rest of your post. Crime isn’t discriminatory, man is.
People are not given the same options and choices. A child whose father is imprisoned is not being given the same education about right and wrong. It is foolish to say these things are equal across the board.
I'm not saying that things like community effort and personal responsibility aren't also at play here. Of course those things are a factor, and they're very important. My point, however, is that it's silly to claim that all are presented with equal footing and opportunity, and say that it is only by their own doing that certain communities are struggling.
The fact is that significant racial disparity is still a very real thing in America. We might not have Jim Crow laws on the books anymore, but that doesn't mean that the effects of the past have magically disappeared. People who are alive today, who are raising children and grandchildren, and who are passing on their lot in life, through educational opportunity, inheritance, and social standing, to their families, were the victims of blatant, wide-spread racism. It was less than 50 years ago that the Civil Rights Act was passed. People who are alive today were denied basic access to education, voting, and other critical things.
That legacy continues to be passed down to the new generations. If your parents are not educated, you are worse off. This is not a controversial fact. If your parents are not educated because of segregation in schools, and you suffer from that, it is absolutely true that you are facing an uphill struggle as the result of institutional racism. The effects of segregated schools did not disappear in 1954, they are still with us today. It is appalling ignorant to, as some have done in this thread, pretend that the past no longer affects us.
This doesn't even make any sense. That is probably the ultimate lesson. if you do wrong then you can go to jail.
You choose to do right or wrong. you know that it is wrong to take something that isn't yours. You know that it is wrong to do or even distribute drugs. Yet people still make these choices of their own free will.
there isn't some white guy with a gun to their head forcing them to do it.
the blame the white guy game is over. it has no substance at this point. the responsibility for getting their community back on track is up to them. there are plenty of groups will to help out and get things back on track.
Instead of turning to the real leaders for their community they turn to people like al sharpton and jesse jackson.
so far you have.
so are you going to be making this excuse 100 years from now as well? when do the excuses stop?
sure they had it bad, and yes they had it rough. to me they wouldn't want their children to suffer the same things they went through and to make things better for them.
they fought and won the rights to do certain things yet they have let that slip over the past 50 years.
The mentality isn't the same now as it was then. it has gotten worse. although there is a surge to get things changed. it is meeting heavy resistance from those that would rather keep the racial war going.
i know quite a few successfull black people. there are others out there as well. trying to make a difference. yet they are met with hate and met as outsiders because they broke the mold.
it is a mentality and a mind set that has to be changed in the community and culturally and until that happens they will continue to have problems.
This isn't a very good arguement to make as 40% of america either pays no tax at all or gets more back than what they did pay in.
so i guess that 40% is not upholding their part of the contract?
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So, you agree that there is nothing pysically stopping black people from elevating themselves in society?
What you said basically amount to 'it's all in their head.'
Which it is.
I'm not saying that there is no difference between cultures. What I AM saying is that it is not currently the fault of the white community.
The black community did not start this problem, but it seems that the majority (at least those in poverty) refuse to take responsibility for their situation. They would much rather sit there and blame the major 'flaws' in the system, when there really are no such flaws.
Unfortunately, life isn't always fair. Poverty and family instability may foster a negative attitude in regards to established education, but that does nothing in taking those opportunities away.
That you can't see how any of this boils down to personal accountability is quite depressing to me, and means that unfortunately you won't be able to have a logical discussion on the matter.
The cause is very relevant to the discussion. Nice try in trying to dismiss it, though.
It does when they are the one that commits them.
Police don't just nab black people from the sidewalk and throw them in jail, as much as you may think they do. If I live in a high crime area, with a high police concentration, I wouldn't mind at all (other than the high crime part), because I don't do anything that would throw me in jail.
How is being fatherless an excuse to break the law?
I still don't understand this logic. Being raised without a father removes your critical thinking abilities?
Which has already been addressed.
Police are not omni-present. They go to the areas with the highest crime rates. Thus, there are more arrests when you have an area that has a higher crime rate.
And it's not a theory, it's common sense.
I'll be more than happy to look those up for you, but it will have to wait until tommorrow, since I have work early.
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck...
The original point made was that black people do not face any systematic disadvantage. If the average black person who uses drugs faces a much greater risk of incarceration than the average white person who uses drugs, that's a systematic disadvantage. It doesn't matter whether other black people commit other crimes, or whether black people are subject to more police scrutiny. The bottom line is that that puts a lot of black children into a fatherless family. Had those children been born to white parents, many of them would not be in that position. This disadvantage is real regardless of the reason.
The people who are being arrested and put in jail for minor drug crimes are not all the same people who are out committing serious crimes. It is not their fault that they live in a high crime area.
Yes, people shouldn't do drugs. But people do, white and black alike. The difference is that white people are much more likely to get away with it, and go on raising their family.
Further, the justice system is not perfect. Innocent people do go to jail all the time. I'm not saying it's because of some vast racism conspiracy or anything, but it is a real issue, and it does happen.
What does this have to do with what I said? I am absolutely not saying that being fatherless is an excuse to break the law. I am saying that if your father is put in jail, that's not your fault, but it does put you at a disadvantage. If a white father in the same situation would not have been put in jail, that's not a "cultural" issue, that's an inherent disadvantage you've suffered because of your race.
I'm not saying it's because some police officer somewhere hates black people and decides to throw them in jail for no reason. The structure of the system in place, however, is such that the disparate affect on the races is very real.
I don't see how this is a response to what was quoted. My point is that if you claim that the black drug arrest rate is inflated because of high police presence, you must also accept that the black arrest rate for other crimes is similarly inflated.
I will be very surprised to see those statistics. Note that I am talking about actual crime rates, not arrest rates or reporting rates or conviction rates. When talking about drug rates, it's important that we have both the actual use percentage (13%) and the arrest/conviction percentage (~60%). The problem would not be clear if we only had arrest/conviction percentages.
They DO face disadvantages. Those disadvantages are formed in the family, not outside in the working world. Change in the family can only come from the family. Society can only do so much.
No one is physically stopping black people from getting a job, working hard, or working hard in school, and going to college.
The original debate was centered around white people and how big of a role they still play in this disadvantage.
Brought about by whom?
Again, I never stated disadvantages don't exist. Because they do. It's unfortunate, yes.
But playing the blame game is no way to bring about change. Racism plays no part in these disadvantages. It's just an easy scape goat for those that don't want to take responsibility for the situations that they inevitably put themselves in.
This makes no sense logically. Crime is crime. It doesn't matter what brings such heavy police presence, just that it's there. And if you get caught, you are going to jail.
Which isn't brought about by racism.
Innocent people of all colors.
Of course the system isn't perfect. Nothing is. But thats not what is being argued. Racism is. Widespread racism, at that.
Then we agree.
Of course it's not. And of course it does.
But that's not racism. That's called cause and effect.
Then you agree it's not caused from blatant racism.
Finally we are making some progress.
Except you are missing the point. Non drug related crimes are not inflated at all. If crime rates were even between white and black communities, then so would arrests.
But they aren't. Crime rates among black communities are usually higher, which brings about more arrests.
Drug arrests may be, but that is caused by higher crime rates across the board in those communities. It's unfortunate, yes, but if these people were not breaking the law in the first place, they wouldn't have to deal with this inflation.
It'd be much harder to find an actual crime rate then it is to find an actual drug use rate. People don't exactly admit to committing serious crime when asked.
The best thing you are probably going to get is arrest rates.
Then why do you think the conviction rates are higher?
So why do you think that is?
I don't know, I guess they are more careful. Why do you think black people get caught more?
Do you really want to argue this? Whether in jail or not in jail a father committing such crimes is going to have little positive influence on the kids.
If anything he would be an example of what not to do.
Yes i know the statistics for fathers being in kids lives, However those are only good if the fathers aren't committing crimes themselves.
this is a really bad stance for you to be argueing from.
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If you're dad goes to jail, you are more likely to windup there yourself. It's a fact, if that matters.
It's not about children having parents in jail, it's about children being raised in an environment where parents do things that can get them in jail. If you grow up watching mommy smoke crack or watching daddy steal cars, you will be more likely to commit such crimes growing up.
If you have a drug conviction that does stop you from doing those things. Once you have a drug conviction, you can be legally discriminated against for all of these things.
The original post I responded to was mystery saying the problems in the black community were "cultural", and that external factors did not exist.
The disadvantage is brought about by the inherent unfairness of the system. Just because there is not some nefarious person sitting there plotting how to screw over black people does not mean that the end result cannot be unfairly racially biased. For example, juries tend to punish black people more harshly than white people, even when all other factors are the same. It's not because jurors are raving racists. It's that most everyone has subtle, even subconscious prejudices about race, and those make small impacts on how they vote in a jury.
It's not "playing the blame game", it's pointing out problems that need to be addressed.
But crime is not all the same. Some people have the advantage of being able to get away with it.
Not by blatant individual racism, no. But certainly by inherent racism in the structure of our police and justice system.
I don't know where you came up with the idea that I thought this was about blatantly racist cops or juries or whatever. The thing that needs to be recognized is that that sort of blatant racism is not the only kind that exists, and not the only kind that can have a real effect on people's lives.
How do you know that non-drug related crime rates are not inflated at all? You just pulled that "fact" out of thin air. How is it that the extra police presence produces a disproportionate number of drug arrests, but has no effect on arrests for other crimes?
This is exactly my point. Arrest rates are not the same as actual crime rates, though. As the drug example shows, it is very difficult to correlate the two.
So you admit it is the parent's fault then....
It's partly everyone's fault; the child; the parent; the society; the times. That's how life works, its all inner connected.
It is exactly for that reason it does not MATTER who's fault it is and we all should do our part to fix it.
It's a fact that it's everyone's fault, but that fact is not applicable for the solution. You guys(myself included) keep arguing over that fact, but it does not matter in the slightest. Fixing the mess is what matters, not who made the mess.
While I agree with you on this, the impression I get is that the comments can be construed about who would be "responsible" for "fixing the mess". With the range being "individual" or "society". (I hold the later myself, to the extent that "society" should create a support network of some kind that an individual could ultimately utilize. The individual still must take the necessary steps, but "society" has to do more than just sit and watch.)
Well, i am trying to prove my point to the people that re just saying "it's white people fault". Which just isn't true, or specif enough. But I do think knowing who is to blame, today, can help find a solution.
We don't just "sit and watch". There are plenty for programs that are in place to help people in these communities.
I've yet to see where finding someone to "blame" for a problem actually fixes the problem. Because most of the time people argue about whether or not the "blame" is warranted, rather than what can actually be done to fix the problem. And really, most of the people to "blame" for this are long dead. (Especially if everyone shares an extent in the "blame".)
Yeah, actually "we" do. Unless you actually take direct action to help, then you're just "sitting and watching" someone else do the work to provide that program or provide the assistance.
No, actually "we" don't. If its at all government funded, then we by definition are taking action and supporting it. The *entire* reason we have the government funded programs is because not everyone *can* take X time and go out there and phyiscally do something.
It gives us more insight to the actual problem, and therefore more insight on how to fix it. You have to know what the problem is before you can fix it. If we didn't know who was at the root of the problem, then we could never really fix the problem, only satisfy it temporarily.
What? Plenty of mine and your tax dollars go to programs to help these communities. Things like food stamps, education, and the unemployed all strive on our tax dollars.
there is a differnece between knowing who/what is at the root of the problem, and knowing who/what causes the problem. They are related often, but not always.
For example: Knowing that white slave masters 100 years ago are the root for why blacks are currently in a worse soceo-economic state than whites doesn't help us, at all, to determine how we can help them get out of the worse soceo-economic state.
Really? So, do you take the time to examine the programs and provide feedback about their operation? Or make sure that oversight is being provided about how those tax dollars are being spent and to what extent the program is achieving appropriate performance measures?
Please explain what insight your assessment of "blame" has provided into the root of the problem, and how to fix it.