Quote from France: Senate Passes Bill on Facial Veils[/quote »
The French Senate on Tuesday overwhelmingly approved a bill barring women from wearing the full facial veil anywhere in public. If the law is approved by France’s constitutional council, it will go into effect next spring and set a range of fines for women, including tourists, who wear the full veil. It also provides criminal penalties for those who force women to wear it. The vote was 246 to 1, with many abstentions from left-wing legislators; the bill passed the lower house in July.
Critics say that the measure stigmatizes one sex of one religion, but the law is very popular with the public and proponents say it defends traditional French values like women’s rights and secularism.
Viva la France?
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If you haven't been following The New York Times' "The Stone" philosophy column, Martha Nussbaum wrote a very enlightening article and follow-up on the subject of liberty and accomodationism as regards Muslim veils.
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Vive, vale. Siquid novisti rectius istis,
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Banning women from doing something is the opposite of defending women's rights.
Now, I write satisfactory French, so if someone would give me an address, I could get that in a letter and tell the France senate. Let's help them out!
The French have a long standing practice of CONFORM TO US (ie. give up the practices of your origin and become French). This attitude is apparent in all of France that I've been to. While most of the French that I met could speak English, none would do so unless I started the conversation in French. To them, I was in their country and should know how to say hello in their language. A simple Bon Jour. Pardon. Je'ne parle pas Francias. Parle le vous Anglais went very far.
While my pigeon French allowed me to get along okay, it was the attempt that changed everything in attitude.
In the US, the veil would be seen for what it is: freedom of religion. In France, ALL CHANGES are a threat to France and it's 'proud' history of being France.
In the US, "white power", "Black Pride" or any of a host of racially profiling groups are allowed as long as they are not criminal in nature. In Germany so such organizations are allowed with reference to Nazi's completely being Illegal.
In Georgia, USA with it's criminal and sad history of the KKK's supression of non-Chrisitian whites, it is illegal to cover your face in public. Period. While the issue of the veil is not addressed (likely exempted) the history of violence causes a prohibition of use.
Given the omnipresence of the threat of radical Islam terror, the veil is seen as a threat to French history. In short, its a very French thing to stop foriegn influence on their culture. They're modern and enlightened but their society is xenophobic. If tomorrow wearing your hair in a pony tail was suddenly "not-French" they'd pass laws to ban it too.
Now aren't we all glad for our Founding Fathers wisdom to demand the first 10 ammendments to ratify the Constitution? Yes.
I am glad the french have that additude. It is a good additude to have. I just don't like that they have manifested that additude in a law that reflects a disregard for religouse freedom.
And then you bring out "xenophobic". There is nothing xenophobic about wanting France to be FRENCH, Japan to be JAPAN, and South Africa to be SOUTH AFRICA.
I used to be an outsider to the rural United States. I moved there about six years ago. There is a stereotype about rural denizens not likeing outsiders, and its true to an extent. But there is a reason and its not any of this xenophobic sillyness you hear about...
I eventually came to love the country, and the people who are there don't want you changing it because they like it the way it is. Thats why they are sceptical of outsiders. It not because they think they are some "dangerouse minority" coming to hurt ther' wymen. Its because they know that if enough outsiders come (and that if those outsiders don't do in rome as the romans do) then the place they love will soon no longer be what they love.
Its not (ussualy) racism or anysuch thing like that. They like their culture the way it is (and so do most people). There is nothing wrong with that. It only becomes wrong when you enforce it through law.
Objecting to someone wanting to preserve thier culture is like objecting to someone thinking that they are right.
Person A: YOU JUST THINK YOU'RE RIGHT DON'T YOU?
Person B: Ofcourse I do or I would change my opinion and not have said what I said.
It doesn't seem like this would help secularize Muslim households at all, and might make things difficult for some women who are either only comfortable when they (or are pressured to) wear a face veil outside.
I find the reasons TO wear a face veil to be pretty damn stupid and I have zero respect for those reasons, but ultimately the ban just doesn't seem to be anything close to a solution to the problem (IMO) of devout religiosity and the oppression of women that it often entails.
I don't give a ☺☺☺☺ about the whole "freedom of religion as a principle" thing because we draw the line there anyway. Nobody's free to burn "witches" alive anymore even if they think their bearded douche in the sky tells them to. You're free to practice whatever as long as it's not antisocial. If the burqa per se were actually hazardous to other people because it's made of some toxic crap then it'd be banned here in a heartbeat, freedom of religion or not. It's important to note that a case can't be made for the face veil being something dangerous enough to outright ban the wear of regardless of the freedom of religion.
However, I do 100% think that if people are asked to show their face for ID purposes and to enter certain buildings or whatever, that they shouldn't have the option of simply ignoring that request.
And Nussbaum's article was idiotic. Even if I agree with her that the face veil shouldn't be banned, her arguments for her case are atrocious.
I guess OP wants it to be 'keyworded' like "dies" was. What word would you replace ETB with though?
When Aegis Angel is born?
When Huntmaster of the Fells arrives?
When Kitchen Sphinx lands?
When Faerie Imposter busts in?
When Dread Cacodemon pops in?
When Malfegor shows up?
To the French, the veil is tantamount to oppression of the women, (likely imho), is one step below beating them and one step above not letting women wear shoes (hey, take them shoes off and get back in that kitchen).
I feel like this is wrong on every level.
If someone WANTS to wear a veil, I fail to see how you could possibly argue it is empowering them to stop them from doing so.
How about those women who are forced to wear the veil by their husbands?
Or how about that criminal headed for the bank to rob it, who, instead of wearing a balaclava, is disguised as a muslim woman so nobody recognizes him until it is too late. (Ok, this is example is laughable, but the veil sometimes does hide one's identity, which should not happen in public spaces).
As a feminist, I am opposed to the wearing of veils by women. However, I don't think banning the wearing of veils will have any effect on that.
Nevertheless, the purpose of the bill is public security. Only the conservatives in France are targeting Islam. The rest are passing this bill to keep bank robbers from wearing ski masks (or burqas if they ban only ski masks). It is quite simply a security bill.
On the other hand, I take a lot more offense with the bans on headscarves in public schools in France and Turkey. Those laws are simply ridiculous.
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I mean, I think it's pretty clearly a law targeting Muslims, with whatever other explanation being a thinly-veiled attempt to justify it. Any argument in favor of this law has an uphill battle of Everest proportions to try to convince me otherwise.
Nevertheless, the purpose of the bill is public security. Only the conservatives in France are targeting Islam. The rest are passing this bill to keep bank robbers from wearing ski masks (or burqas if they ban only ski masks). It is quite simply a security bill.
... They're passing a law trying to keep people who are breaking the law from concealing their identity while breaking the law?
I'm wondering whether this post is ridiculous, or all of France is.
I mean, I think it's pretty clearly a law targeting Muslims, with whatever other explanation being a thinly-veiled attempt to justify it. Any argument in favor of this law has an uphill battle of Everest proportion to try to convince me otherwise.
... They're passing a law trying to keep people who are breaking the law from concealing their identity while breaking the law?
I'm wondering whether this post is ridiculous, or all of France is.
Okay the example I gave was silly, but the point still stands that for security reasons they want people to keep their faces uncovered so they are identifiable.
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Okay the example I gave was silly, but the point still stands that for security reasons they want people to keep their faces uncovered so they are identifiable.
Translation: "The previous post I made was ridiculous. I'm going to say the exact same thing again."
Except it's STILL ridiculous the second time around.
"Security reasons"? Give me a break. Follow this logic with me now: they want people to keep their faces uncovered so that they are identifiable, so they pass a law that says "women will be fined for wearing headscarves". What, did they forget about men and other types of adornment, or were they just going to pass each particular article of clothing that would cover the face as its own separate law, and go through the legal process for each gender, just to be extra thorough?
It's a crackdown on expressions of Muslim faith. Don't even try to argue it's not.
Translation: "The previous post I made was ridiculous. I'm going to say the exact same thing again."
Except it's STILL ridiculous the second time around.
"Security reasons"? Give me a break. Follow this logic with me now: they want people to keep their faces uncovered so that they are identifiable, so they pass a law that says "women will be fined for wearing headscarves". What, did they forget about men and other types of adornment, or were they just going to pass each particular article of clothing that would cover the face as its own separate law, and go through the legal process for each gender, just to be extra thorough?
It's a crackdown on expressions of Muslim faith. Don't even try to argue it's not.
That isn't what it says (though it isn't your fault that you believe that, as nearly every media source has been misrepresenting it). First, it applies to both men and women. Second, it has nothing to do with headscarves. It bans face coverings in public.
Nevertheless, I do agree that a significant portion of its support is motivated by religious hate. However, you shouldn't oppose a bill because a minority of its supporters have the wrong motivation.
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That isn't what it says (though it isn't your fault that you believe that, as nearly every media source has been misrepresenting it). First, it applies to both men and women. Second, it has nothing to do with headscarves. It bans face coverings in public.
Because WHO wears face coverings in public? Muslim women. They banned it in all government-owned buildings, including schools, now they want to ban it throughout France.
Quote from CNN.com »
Forcing a woman to wear a niqab or a burqa will be punishable by a year in prison or a 15,000-euro ($19,000) fine
You're going to argue to me that has no roots in Islamic targetting?
Yes, because WHO wears face coverings in public? Muslim women. They banned it in all government-owned buildings, including schools, now they want to ban it throughout France.
Edit: Of course if CNN says it is true, then it must be. Obviously there were WMDs in Iraq and you could see pictures of Russia bombing Georgia which weren't actually pictures of Georgia bombing South Ossetia.
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Err... So hang on, the official explanation of this is for public safety? They could've pushed so many better laws that only infringe on rights of expression without having to infringe on religious beliefs.
I'm behind Highroller on this one; it's just a liiiittle bit ridiculous to claim that this is not religion-based.
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My religion allows me to beat my wife and child when read as a fundalmental statement (literally "the blueness of the wound will heal"). Yet the law doesn't allow me to beat them. To the French, the veil is tantamount to oppression of the women, (likely imho), is one step below beating them and one step above not letting women wear shoes (hey, take them shoes off and get back in that kitchen).
Where did I mention a husband forcing here to wear it?
I guess OP wants it to be 'keyworded' like "dies" was. What word would you replace ETB with though?
When Aegis Angel is born?
When Huntmaster of the Fells arrives?
When Kitchen Sphinx lands?
When Faerie Imposter busts in?
When Dread Cacodemon pops in?
When Malfegor shows up?
The French have a long standing practice of CONFORM TO US (ie. give up the practices of your origin and become French). This attitude is apparent in all of France that I've been to. While most of the French that I met could speak English, none would do so unless I started the conversation in French.
As opposed to the United States, where it's English or nothing.
As a feminist, I am opposed to the wearing of veils by women.
As a feminist I'm also against high heels and makeup (they're sign of man domination in the West, like the veil is a sign of man domination in Islamic cultures). There's a difference between being against something and banning it.
Nobody is freaking fooled by the reasoning behind this law. At the end of the day, it's all about Sarko courting the FN voters.
As a feminist I'm also against high heels and makeup (they're sign of man domination in the West, like the veil is a sign of man domination in Islamic cultures). There's a difference between being against something and banning it.
What do you think of purchasing sex? Do you think it should be legal (not that people who purchase sex are punished, but it is at least illegal on paper)?
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I don't think that makeup and high heels are equivalent to this
There are pretty straight up biological reasons why a women would want to attract a mate, and that's why makeup and high heels work the way they do. Same reason why a guy wears a fancy watch, nice clothes, cologne or anything else you've seen in a romantic comedy in the last 30 years.
On the other hand, you've got a religious bit forced upon women in a very direct way.
What do you think of purchasing sex? Do you think it should be legal (not that people who purchase sex are punished, but it is at least illegal on paper)?
Let's just say I don't see a moral difference between hiring a prostitute and hiring a worker for wages. However, as an anarcho-communist, unlike libertarians I am against the institution of wage labor, so...
There are pretty straight up biological reasons why a women would want to attract a mate, and that's why makeup and high heels work the way they do.
High heels work like they do because, like the old asian tradition of feet binding, they are inconveniences that reduce female mobility and ability to perform physical tasks. They are a symbol of women's subservience, and female subservience is considered 'hot' in a male dominated society.
As for the biological explanation of women's use of makeup, that doesn't explain why men (usually) don't wear it. Men also need to attract mates. The one-sidedness of it is due to the fact that women in this society are valued almost solely in their capacity to *please men*, whereas men have other ways in which they are valued apart from their possibility to attract a mate.
The point is that a woman is not a 'bad feminist' for wearing high heels and there is no feminist attempt to ban them, but there are some (let's just say 'culturally insensitive', though I would use a much stronger word) feminists who wish to ban the veil or claim it is impossible to be a liberated woman and wear it, and that's just frakked up.
Viva la France?
Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
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Now, I write satisfactory French, so if someone would give me an address, I could get that in a letter and tell the France senate. Let's help them out!
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And then you bring out "xenophobic". There is nothing xenophobic about wanting France to be FRENCH, Japan to be JAPAN, and South Africa to be SOUTH AFRICA.
I used to be an outsider to the rural United States. I moved there about six years ago. There is a stereotype about rural denizens not likeing outsiders, and its true to an extent. But there is a reason and its not any of this xenophobic sillyness you hear about...
I eventually came to love the country, and the people who are there don't want you changing it because they like it the way it is. Thats why they are sceptical of outsiders. It not because they think they are some "dangerouse minority" coming to hurt ther' wymen. Its because they know that if enough outsiders come (and that if those outsiders don't do in rome as the romans do) then the place they love will soon no longer be what they love.
Its not (ussualy) racism or anysuch thing like that. They like their culture the way it is (and so do most people). There is nothing wrong with that. It only becomes wrong when you enforce it through law.
Objecting to someone wanting to preserve thier culture is like objecting to someone thinking that they are right.
Person A: YOU JUST THINK YOU'RE RIGHT DON'T YOU?
Person B: Ofcourse I do or I would change my opinion and not have said what I said.
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RWG Pod Combo
URSplinter Twin
URStorm
RBurn
I find the reasons TO wear a face veil to be pretty damn stupid and I have zero respect for those reasons, but ultimately the ban just doesn't seem to be anything close to a solution to the problem (IMO) of devout religiosity and the oppression of women that it often entails.
I don't give a ☺☺☺☺ about the whole "freedom of religion as a principle" thing because we draw the line there anyway. Nobody's free to burn "witches" alive anymore even if they think their bearded douche in the sky tells them to. You're free to practice whatever as long as it's not antisocial. If the burqa per se were actually hazardous to other people because it's made of some toxic crap then it'd be banned here in a heartbeat, freedom of religion or not. It's important to note that a case can't be made for the face veil being something dangerous enough to outright ban the wear of regardless of the freedom of religion.
However, I do 100% think that if people are asked to show their face for ID purposes and to enter certain buildings or whatever, that they shouldn't have the option of simply ignoring that request.
And Nussbaum's article was idiotic. Even if I agree with her that the face veil shouldn't be banned, her arguments for her case are atrocious.
I want to wear a head covering, as it is a right, and I want to be empowered to follow my beliefs.
Police officer:
No, we will not give you the right to follow your beliefs, because we find that they are against the rights of women
French Islamic woman:
What?
I feel like this is wrong on every level.
If someone WANTS to wear a veil, I fail to see how you could possibly argue it is empowering them to stop them from doing so.
Or how about that criminal headed for the bank to rob it, who, instead of wearing a balaclava, is disguised as a muslim woman so nobody recognizes him until it is too late. (Ok, this is example is laughable, but the veil sometimes does hide one's identity, which should not happen in public spaces).
Nevertheless, the purpose of the bill is public security. Only the conservatives in France are targeting Islam. The rest are passing this bill to keep bank robbers from wearing ski masks (or burqas if they ban only ski masks). It is quite simply a security bill.
On the other hand, I take a lot more offense with the bans on headscarves in public schools in France and Turkey. Those laws are simply ridiculous.
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... They're passing a law trying to keep people who are breaking the law from concealing their identity while breaking the law?
I'm wondering whether this post is ridiculous, or all of France is.
Okay the example I gave was silly, but the point still stands that for security reasons they want people to keep their faces uncovered so they are identifiable.
Special thanks to Maelstrom Graphics for the signature.
Check out the Robin Hood Morality Test!
I'm a 6 - a de facto atheist.
I am petitioning for the removal of mythic rarity and boycotting overpriced singles. Sig this to join the cause for a more affordable Magic the Gathering.
Translation: "The previous post I made was ridiculous. I'm going to say the exact same thing again."
Except it's STILL ridiculous the second time around.
"Security reasons"? Give me a break. Follow this logic with me now: they want people to keep their faces uncovered so that they are identifiable, so they pass a law that says "women will be fined for wearing headscarves". What, did they forget about men and other types of adornment, or were they just going to pass each particular article of clothing that would cover the face as its own separate law, and go through the legal process for each gender, just to be extra thorough?
It's a crackdown on expressions of Muslim faith. Don't even try to argue it's not.
That isn't what it says (though it isn't your fault that you believe that, as nearly every media source has been misrepresenting it). First, it applies to both men and women. Second, it has nothing to do with headscarves. It bans face coverings in public.
Nevertheless, I do agree that a significant portion of its support is motivated by religious hate. However, you shouldn't oppose a bill because a minority of its supporters have the wrong motivation.
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Check out the Robin Hood Morality Test!
I'm a 6 - a de facto atheist.
I am petitioning for the removal of mythic rarity and boycotting overpriced singles. Sig this to join the cause for a more affordable Magic the Gathering.
Because WHO wears face coverings in public? Muslim women. They banned it in all government-owned buildings, including schools, now they want to ban it throughout France.
You're going to argue to me that has no roots in Islamic targetting?
I don't remember the exact statistics, but I think it was estimated that something like 6 women in France wear face coverings. On the other hand, you could get this: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/man-wearing-burka-carries-out-jewellery-shop-raid-1965191.html Or this: http://voices.washingtonpost.com/crime-scene/montgomery/man-in-burqa-robs-md-bank.html
Edit: Of course if CNN says it is true, then it must be. Obviously there were WMDs in Iraq and you could see pictures of Russia bombing Georgia which weren't actually pictures of Georgia bombing South Ossetia.
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I'm a 6 - a de facto atheist.
I am petitioning for the removal of mythic rarity and boycotting overpriced singles. Sig this to join the cause for a more affordable Magic the Gathering.
So I should believe you over "nearly every media source" on just your word alone? Where's your proof to support your interpretation of the law?
I'm behind Highroller on this one; it's just a liiiittle bit ridiculous to claim that this is not religion-based.
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I think this should clear up any questions about what the bill outlaws.
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I'm a 6 - a de facto atheist.
I am petitioning for the removal of mythic rarity and boycotting overpriced singles. Sig this to join the cause for a more affordable Magic the Gathering.
It's in French.
Where did I mention a husband forcing here to wear it?
As opposed to the United States, where it's English or nothing.
As a feminist I'm also against high heels and makeup (they're sign of man domination in the West, like the veil is a sign of man domination in Islamic cultures). There's a difference between being against something and banning it.
Nobody is freaking fooled by the reasoning behind this law. At the end of the day, it's all about Sarko courting the FN voters.
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My latest data-driven Magic the Gathering strategy article
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What do you think of purchasing sex? Do you think it should be legal (not that people who purchase sex are punished, but it is at least illegal on paper)?
Special thanks to Maelstrom Graphics for the signature.
Check out the Robin Hood Morality Test!
I'm a 6 - a de facto atheist.
I am petitioning for the removal of mythic rarity and boycotting overpriced singles. Sig this to join the cause for a more affordable Magic the Gathering.
There are pretty straight up biological reasons why a women would want to attract a mate, and that's why makeup and high heels work the way they do. Same reason why a guy wears a fancy watch, nice clothes, cologne or anything else you've seen in a romantic comedy in the last 30 years.
On the other hand, you've got a religious bit forced upon women in a very direct way.
Let's just say I don't see a moral difference between hiring a prostitute and hiring a worker for wages. However, as an anarcho-communist, unlike libertarians I am against the institution of wage labor, so...
High heels work like they do because, like the old asian tradition of feet binding, they are inconveniences that reduce female mobility and ability to perform physical tasks. They are a symbol of women's subservience, and female subservience is considered 'hot' in a male dominated society.
As for the biological explanation of women's use of makeup, that doesn't explain why men (usually) don't wear it. Men also need to attract mates. The one-sidedness of it is due to the fact that women in this society are valued almost solely in their capacity to *please men*, whereas men have other ways in which they are valued apart from their possibility to attract a mate.
The point is that a woman is not a 'bad feminist' for wearing high heels and there is no feminist attempt to ban them, but there are some (let's just say 'culturally insensitive', though I would use a much stronger word) feminists who wish to ban the veil or claim it is impossible to be a liberated woman and wear it, and that's just frakked up.
Netdecking is Rightdecking
My latest data-driven Magic the Gathering strategy article
(TLDR: Analysis of the Valakut matchups. UB rising in the rankings. Aggro correspondingly taking a dive.)