You think that a valid criticism of the centre and its mosque is that the people who intend to use it very broadly share religious background with those who carried out the attacks on the WTC. There is no basis for this. The only way to think so is if you believe that brown people and/or Muslims are pretty much the same everywhere.
Nice way to yet again prove me right about your lack or reading comprehension and baffeling willingness to label everything you disagree with racist. CONGRATS!!!
I never said any such thing.
I have been saying for the past few posts that it is in bad taste because...
1) The atrocities were commited in the name of Islam. This does not mean that I believe all muslims are the same. I am stating a fact.
2) Many of the victims family members would feel like they are being slapped in the face by the mosque being biult nearby the scene of the crime, seeing as the atrocities were commited in the name of Islam. I am not saying they are being reasonable. I am not offended by the mosque. But even if they are being unreasonable (the victums who are offended) offending those people would still be in pretty bad taste considering what they have already been through.
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2) Many of the victims family members would feel like they are being slapped in the face by the mosque being biult nearby the scene of the crime, seeing as the atrocities were commited in the name of Islam. I am not saying they are being reasonable. I am not offended by the mosque. But even if they are being unreasonable (the victums who are offended) offending those people would still be in pretty bad taste considering what they have already been through.
If people are being unreasonable, and we indulge and support their fear and hate, we are as guilty as them. At least they might have the excuse of being blinded by grief.
I dunno, it seems perfectly reasonable to say that no more catholic churches could be built in NYC after the IRA bombed a few flights that were heading to and from NYC.
Nice way to yet again prove me right about your lack or reading comprehension and baffeling willingness to label everything you disagree with racist. CONGRATS!!!
There is no use. it doesn't matter what you say the only arguement they can come up with is racism which is almost like crying nazi. it is a worthless arguement in total, but it is the only one that they have.
I have been saying for the past few posts that it is in bad taste because...
My view from the get go really. Sure they can build it there they own the land, However just because you can do something doesn't mean that you should. As i said had it been a community center with a memorial i doubt you would see any objection.
the fact they are putting a mosque in it and trying to bridge the community just doesn't go hand in hand with some people. that in no way gives anyone the right to call them racist.
Which conveniently I quoted the claim of responsibility for the first WTC bombing in 1993 on the previous page which states it very explicitly.
No idea why he didn't bother to read that.
That is what he claimed it goes hand in hand with the fact that the WTC building has been forever seen as a symbol of wealth and power something that they hate about us.
it goes far more into than just that we support israel.
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That is what he claimed it goes hand in hand with the fact that the WTC building has been forever seen as a symbol of wealth and power something that they hate about us.
Right because the Saudis really care how rich we are.... what do you think would happen to their economy without us exactly?
Right because the Saudis really care how rich we are.... what do you think would happen to their economy without us exactly?
This sort of view of the terrorists - that they arbitrarily hate everything nice in the world - freedom, wealth, success, etc. - is sort of silly when you think about it. Did they all just wake up today and say, "You know, I don't like other people having nice things. I think I'll go blow myself up."
Their dislike of things like freedom, wealth, etc. are just symptoms of their geopolitical ambitions - the establishment of an Islamic Caliphate based on their radical version of their religion. They hate our power because our presence in the Middle East is perceived as a threat to the establishment of that Caliphate. They hate our freedom because they feel Western influences in Middle Eastern culture are an impediment to the establishment of their envisioned strict theocracy.
The bizarre and myopic view that ignores this backdrop is pretty ridiculous.
I'm really confused by this thread. All I see is people posting over and over again how it is in poor taste. When did that become the constitutional issue over whether or not it should be allowed to be built?
Unless we have already dealt with that and this thread has degenerated into Islamophobices telling us why every Muslim=terrorist? I've been away for a while.
How about this. These attacks were undertaken by a religious group for religious reasons, and this is something that is difficult to contest. Therefore, it is in poor taste to allow any kind of religious venue to be near the site of this tragedy. Sucks to be St. Paul's Cathedral, I guess.
How about this. These attacks were undertaken by a religious group for religious reasons, and this is something that is difficult to contest. Therefore, it is in poor taste to allow any kind of religious venue to be near the site of this tragedy. Sucks to be St. Paul's Cathedral, I guess.
No no no, it's in perfectly fine taste. However, there are certain people who might still be offended. They've had it pretty rough, though, so we should defer to them on this one. Also, those same people correctly note that the attackers lived in buildings. While it's absolutely nuts to suggest that there should be no buildings in a 20-mile radius, we'd be remiss to not oblige them on that request also.
And the people who were affected by it who are deeply offended that we would use this tragedy to destroy the rights of others? Do we defer to them? How about the Muslims who were killed in the attacks? Do we defer to them?
I'm really confused by this thread. All I see is people posting over and over again how it is in poor taste. When did that become the constitutional issue over whether or not it should be allowed to be built?
Unless we have already dealt with that and this thread has degenerated into Islamophobices telling us why every Muslim=terrorist? I've been away for a while.
It should be allowed.
I should also be allowed to make derogatory cartoons featuring Mohammed. As long as the Muslim community understands that and they don't ***** and moan about it, then... go right ahead.
I should also be allowed to make derogatory cartoons featuring Mohammed. As long as the Muslim community understands that and they don't ***** and moan about it, then... go right ahead.
Exactly imo... That is my opinion completely in a nutshell not only about the Ground Zero building but tolerance in general.
The idea that Islam is a religion of peace is the biggest lie and absurdity placed on humans. The text of the Koran is ridden with violence towards those who are not Muslim. Read it and you'll know.
The idea of building near Ground Zero is only hurting the families of the victims of religious fanaticism. My heart goes out to them. Its the equivalent of when the NRA did a rally in Littleton, CO after Columbine.
Yea, of course they have the right to, but when do you draw the line?
Its also a philosophy of Islam to build up when they once conquered. Hows that food for thought? I talked to people from the ATTF and they told me this:
"Once a mosque is built, it is considered conquered land for all time….Idiot liberal politicians in the US want to be "nice and tolerant" to those who would gladly slaughter them…..The demonstrators in New York have the common sense to see a threat and call it for what it is. Stand with Israel against the barbarians and their leftist useful idiots. "
The idea that Islam is a religion of peace is the biggest lie and absurdity placed on humans. The text of the Koran is ridden with violence towards those who are not Muslim. Read it and you'll know.
The idea of building near Ground Zero is only hurting the families of the victims of religious fanaticism.
It's a mosque, not a "religious fanatics meeting house." There are already thousands of them in the country. It's not like they're planning any attacks and like I said before, if they are, you go in and you arrest them.
My heart goes out to them. Its the equivalent of when the NRA did a rally in Littleton, CO after Columbine.
Is that a joke or something?
Yea, of course they have the right to, but when do you draw the line?
Draw what line? The "you can't build here because you believe X" line? The Constitution and hundreds of years of American law draws that line.... nowhere.
Its also a philosophy of Islam to build up when they once conquered. Hows that food for thought? I talked to people from the ATTF and they told me this:
"Once a mosque is built, it is considered conquered land for all time….Idiot liberal politicians in the US want to be "nice and tolerant" to those who would gladly slaughter them…..The demonstrators in New York have the common sense to see a threat and call it for what it is. Stand with Israel against the barbarians and their leftist useful idiots. "
The idea that Islam is a religion of peace is the biggest lie and absurdity placed on humans. The text of the Koran is ridden with violence towards those who are not Muslim. Read it and you'll know.
So does another religious book I'm sure you're more fond of....
I'm really confused by this thread. All I see is people posting over and over again how it is in poor taste. When did that become the constitutional issue over whether or not it should be allowed to be built?
Unless we have already dealt with that and this thread has degenerated into Islamophobices telling us why every Muslim=terrorist? I've been away for a while.
Exactly right. Moreover, I also think the proposed Mosque zero gay bar is also something that should be built. This would definitely build bridges with the Muslim religion in the same manner as the Mosque/Community Center will build bridges with the American populous.
Come on people! There is too much sensitivity to this subject. Andrew Jackson slaughtered thousands of innocents. We as Americans put Jackson's face on our country's currency and expect the Native Americans to spend it and see it every day after what he did. You are getting sensitive about a Mosque being built down the road from the site of an American tragedy. Really people should find better things to whine about. Genocide Vs. Tragedy...How is that for perspective.
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"Ed Gilliespie, the former Republican National Committee chairman also gave his opinion, saying that 70% of American’s are not in favor of the mosque being there." link
Really %70? This sounds like a "opinion" with out any biases.
Obama has declared his side on the issue.
He also went on to say that as a President, he feels that Muslims have every right to practice their religion as anyone else in the country does, and that the structure will have to stay in accordance with local laws and ordinances. This is America, Obama said.
So the President views this as an issue for Religious Freedom. In My Opinion that is the major thing in this issue; is that Religious Freedom is being subjected.
The first part is at the very least incredibly simplistic and the second part is both unreasonable and hinges on the first part being entirely correct. There is no reason to consider these things to be problems because the family members have no right to be offended here because far from all Muslims planned, carried out or even merely supported the attacks. To top it off the centre is not built with the intention of offending xenophobes.
There is nothing reasonable about being particularly offended by the thing. You claim to think this yet you bring it up as supposedly valid concerns. That does not make sense.
Its called reading. I hear it real ☺☺☺☺ing awsome. Because if you had read you wouldn't have typed the bolded sentence. Because I never said they were being reasonable in being offended.
So are you gonna call them racist? Are you gonna call them "uncle toms"? I am just waiting to see what race baiting you have come up with for this one.
It's a mosque, not a "religious fanatics meeting house." There are already thousands of them in the country. It's not like they're planning any attacks and like I said before, if they are, you go in and you arrest them.
Same old stuff eh Tiax? Just call everyone racist. Then you can go to bed with a smug sense of satisfaction knowing that you are not racistand therefore better than the people on this thread.[/sarcasm]
Well, "prejudice" is a better word.
You know "pre-judge" a group of people based only on the actions of a few.
"Some Muslims blew up a building; Muslims are terrorists."
"Some Mexicans stole my car; Mexicans are thieves."
They have every right to put thier mosque where they want. But it is indeed bad taste to put it next to ground zero.
So, people should be allowed to do things in bad taste if they want. I don't think people should change what they would normally do because of terrorism, if they can help it. The more we allow terrorists to affect our actions, the more we let them win.
But you won't listen you will just call me racist so I don't know why I should bother. It makes as much sense as trying to discuss the existence of God with Taylor.
Ummm...... Is there some real reasoning to back up this offhanded remark of yours? Or are you just talking out of a non-mouth orifice?
Edit: Honestly, I'm not sure I really understand your obsession with me. I have not posted on this thread in over 3 months. Why do you feel fit to drag me back into it just so you could make some remark about a God argument we had over 5 months ago? I mean, you already have a quote in your sig making fun of me; I don't know why you feel the need to ALSO put something in your post.
I've not seen this level of obsession out of someone on the web since I won this and they didn't. I offered to ask the mods to give them the gif if they REALLY wanted it bad enough to make it a big issue. Is there something I can offer you? Would you like me to say something like "unkyunk, you were very right about God. I am sorry."? Would that get you to drop it? PM me so we can talk about it.
I have, it was like a church service except I didn't know what the heck was going on, also their was duck tape on the floor so people knew which way to line up while praying.
Most muslims I've met are fine people.
The real issue is that anything that is basically moderate, let alone liberal, Islam analogy to liberal or moderate Christianity is basically non-existant, especially in the strongholds of the faith. The Koran is the literal word of god for every muslim, everywhere and they are commanded to, in their way, to conquer the world for Allah.
The real issue is that anything that is basically moderate, let alone liberal, Islam analogy to liberal or moderate Christianity is basically non-existant, especially in the strongholds of the faith. The Koran is the literal word of god for every muslim, everywhere and they are commanded to, in their way, to conquer the world for Allah.
The same goes for a large hunk of American based Christian faiths - and frankly the Christian faiths that are aggressive here tend to be far more aggressive about recruitment than any Muslim. [Note: Internationally though, Christian faiths are generally much more mellow than here - of course Catholicism is far, far more prevalent in the old world - which is the pinnacle of mellow for those that follow the New Testament (although less so than those that follow the Old Testament exclusively - the Jews)]
Frankly, for the Imams I've met they're as mellow as the Rabbis I've met when it comes to bringing people into the faith. In other words, if you're interested in joining the faith they'll certainly talk to you about it - but they won't initiate the conversation outside of general advice with minor religious rhetoric to it.
I never said any such thing.
I have been saying for the past few posts that it is in bad taste because...
1) The atrocities were commited in the name of Islam. This does not mean that I believe all muslims are the same. I am stating a fact.
2) Many of the victims family members would feel like they are being slapped in the face by the mosque being biult nearby the scene of the crime, seeing as the atrocities were commited in the name of Islam. I am not saying they are being reasonable. I am not offended by the mosque. But even if they are being unreasonable (the victums who are offended) offending those people would still be in pretty bad taste considering what they have already been through.
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If people are being unreasonable, and we indulge and support their fear and hate, we are as guilty as them. At least they might have the excuse of being blinded by grief.
Re: People misusing the term Vanilla to describe a flying, unleash (sometimes trample) critter.
There is no use. it doesn't matter what you say the only arguement they can come up with is racism which is almost like crying nazi. it is a worthless arguement in total, but it is the only one that they have.
My view from the get go really. Sure they can build it there they own the land, However just because you can do something doesn't mean that you should. As i said had it been a community center with a memorial i doubt you would see any objection.
the fact they are putting a mosque in it and trying to bridge the community just doesn't go hand in hand with some people. that in no way gives anyone the right to call them racist.
That is what he claimed it goes hand in hand with the fact that the WTC building has been forever seen as a symbol of wealth and power something that they hate about us.
it goes far more into than just that we support israel.
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Right because the Saudis really care how rich we are.... what do you think would happen to their economy without us exactly?
Re: People misusing the term Vanilla to describe a flying, unleash (sometimes trample) critter.
This sort of view of the terrorists - that they arbitrarily hate everything nice in the world - freedom, wealth, success, etc. - is sort of silly when you think about it. Did they all just wake up today and say, "You know, I don't like other people having nice things. I think I'll go blow myself up."
Their dislike of things like freedom, wealth, etc. are just symptoms of their geopolitical ambitions - the establishment of an Islamic Caliphate based on their radical version of their religion. They hate our power because our presence in the Middle East is perceived as a threat to the establishment of that Caliphate. They hate our freedom because they feel Western influences in Middle Eastern culture are an impediment to the establishment of their envisioned strict theocracy.
The bizarre and myopic view that ignores this backdrop is pretty ridiculous.
Unless we have already dealt with that and this thread has degenerated into Islamophobices telling us why every Muslim=terrorist? I've been away for a while.
No no no, it's in perfectly fine taste. However, there are certain people who might still be offended. They've had it pretty rough, though, so we should defer to them on this one. Also, those same people correctly note that the attackers lived in buildings. While it's absolutely nuts to suggest that there should be no buildings in a 20-mile radius, we'd be remiss to not oblige them on that request also.
It should be allowed.
I should also be allowed to make derogatory cartoons featuring Mohammed. As long as the Muslim community understands that and they don't ***** and moan about it, then... go right ahead.
Exactly imo... That is my opinion completely in a nutshell not only about the Ground Zero building but tolerance in general.
The idea of building near Ground Zero is only hurting the families of the victims of religious fanaticism. My heart goes out to them. Its the equivalent of when the NRA did a rally in Littleton, CO after Columbine.
Yea, of course they have the right to, but when do you draw the line?
Its also a philosophy of Islam to build up when they once conquered. Hows that food for thought? I talked to people from the ATTF and they told me this:
"Once a mosque is built, it is considered conquered land for all time….Idiot liberal politicians in the US want to be "nice and tolerant" to those who would gladly slaughter them…..The demonstrators in New York have the common sense to see a threat and call it for what it is. Stand with Israel against the barbarians and their leftist useful idiots. "
http://frontpagemag.com/2010/06/08/rally-against-the-ground-zero-mosque/?cid=47058
Think of all the wives without husbands, children without parents, because of 9/11. What about their justice?
All because of rights?
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It's a mosque, not a "religious fanatics meeting house." There are already thousands of them in the country. It's not like they're planning any attacks and like I said before, if they are, you go in and you arrest them.
Is that a joke or something?
Draw what line? The "you can't build here because you believe X" line? The Constitution and hundreds of years of American law draws that line.... nowhere.
What does that have to do with a mosque? I'm lost here.
Yeah, those silly things. You know how right-wing radio is always complaining about Americans "losing our freedom"? Look in the mirror.
So does another religious book I'm sure you're more fond of....
Re: People misusing the term Vanilla to describe a flying, unleash (sometimes trample) critter.
Exactly right. Moreover, I also think the proposed Mosque zero gay bar is also something that should be built. This would definitely build bridges with the Muslim religion in the same manner as the Mosque/Community Center will build bridges with the American populous.
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Really %70? This sounds like a "opinion" with out any biases.
Obama has declared his side on the issue.
He also went on to say that as a President, he feels that Muslims have every right to practice their religion as anyone else in the country does, and that the structure will have to stay in accordance with local laws and ordinances. This is America, Obama said.
So the President views this as an issue for Religious Freedom. In My Opinion that is the major thing in this issue; is that Religious Freedom is being subjected.
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Its called reading. I hear it real ☺☺☺☺ing awsome. Because if you had read you wouldn't have typed the bolded sentence. Because I never said they were being reasonable in being offended.
Flame infraction.
There are muslims who think it is in bad taste:
http://holycoast.blogspot.com/2010/08/muslims-speak-out-against-nyc-mosque.html
So are you gonna call them racist? Are you gonna call them "uncle toms"? I am just waiting to see what race baiting you have come up with for this one.
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How can you be sure? Ever been inside one?
I'm not right wing. Far from it.
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You know "pre-judge" a group of people based only on the actions of a few.
"Some Muslims blew up a building; Muslims are terrorists."
"Some Mexicans stole my car; Mexicans are thieves."
Do you see the disconnect in the logic?
So, people should be allowed to do things in bad taste if they want. I don't think people should change what they would normally do because of terrorism, if they can help it. The more we allow terrorists to affect our actions, the more we let them win.
So?
Ummm......
Is there some real reasoning to back up this offhanded remark of yours? Or are you just talking out of a non-mouth orifice?Edit: Honestly, I'm not sure I really understand your obsession with me. I have not posted on this thread in over 3 months. Why do you feel fit to drag me back into it just so you could make some remark about a God argument we had over 5 months ago? I mean, you already have a quote in your sig making fun of me; I don't know why you feel the need to ALSO put something in your post.
I've not seen this level of obsession out of someone on the web since I won this and they didn't. I offered to ask the mods to give them the gif if they REALLY wanted it bad enough to make it a big issue. Is there something I can offer you? Would you like me to say something like "unkyunk, you were very right about God. I am sorry."? Would that get you to drop it? PM me so we can talk about it.
I have, it was like a church service except I didn't know what the heck was going on, also their was duck tape on the floor so people knew which way to line up while praying.
Most muslims I've met are fine people.
The real issue is that anything that is basically moderate, let alone liberal, Islam analogy to liberal or moderate Christianity is basically non-existant, especially in the strongholds of the faith. The Koran is the literal word of god for every muslim, everywhere and they are commanded to, in their way, to conquer the world for Allah.
Edit:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_movements_within_Islam (in case you're not)
The same goes for a large hunk of American based Christian faiths - and frankly the Christian faiths that are aggressive here tend to be far more aggressive about recruitment than any Muslim. [Note: Internationally though, Christian faiths are generally much more mellow than here - of course Catholicism is far, far more prevalent in the old world - which is the pinnacle of mellow for those that follow the New Testament (although less so than those that follow the Old Testament exclusively - the Jews)]
Frankly, for the Imams I've met they're as mellow as the Rabbis I've met when it comes to bringing people into the faith. In other words, if you're interested in joining the faith they'll certainly talk to you about it - but they won't initiate the conversation outside of general advice with minor religious rhetoric to it.
Re: People misusing the term Vanilla to describe a flying, unleash (sometimes trample) critter.