The people who believe that 2012 will be the end of the world are no different than any mainstream Christian who believes the apocalypse will eventually happen.
Both are based on ambiguous predictions by crazy men thousands of years ago. I fail to see the difference between Nostradamus and Revelations. Yet I have seen practicing Christians laugh about the "crazies" who would even think to believe that the world will end in 2012, but if questioned would undoubtedly confess belief in the "predictions" of revelations.
When you boil both beliefs down you are just left with faith. Is believing that your faith is superior to others faith tenable? Could a Christian explain to me how their faith that the antichrist will come and the world will end is different from a 2012 believer?
EDIT: This is not a post to debate whether faith is valid or not, it's about whether a religious person can actually justify believing one faith is superior to another. 2012 was just an example, you could compare it to Islam or Hinduism, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. I understand that people can and do choose to believe their faith is superior, but I would like to see their arguments for doing so.
Because they have experienced subjective, not-empirically-verifiable phenomena which support their beliefs? A feeling of satisfaction and "someone being with you" during worship or hard times, for instance.
Well both the 2012 and Revelations predictions are both baseless speculation on the future. The difference is that one set of predictions comes from a society that excelled in astronomy(it seems to be corroborated in Terrance McKenna's timewave zero novelty theory but that requires belief in more baseless speculation) and other things and the other comes from the dreams of an apostle of an admitted heretic.
I believe that the whole thing about the end of the world most likely began a long long time ago after a few clever people found out that during catastrophies, people panic and are willing to listen to anyone who takes charge. But what happens when nothing bad's happening and people don't follow you anymore? Make something up! Ergo, the end of the world is coming. Wether to force people to listen to you, to impose your faith or just to control, there's nothing like the end of the world to drive the guillible into a mindless frenzy.
And of course, "you" know the way to save everyone. Notice there's not many end of world story without a way to save yourself. That would just be silly.
Yet we seem to stay attached to the idea of the End for some twisted reason. We've been through so many "endtimes" already. Heck, Jehovahs Witnesses have regular cataclysms times. And let's not forget the infamous Y2K that was suppose to make all computers explode, send nukes in random targets and all sorts of crazy things. It's almost like in a weird twisted way, we want the endtimes to happen now, while we're alive, so that we may witness the final unmaking.
So no, there's no difference between 2012, Armegeddon, the Apocalypse, Ragnarok or any other endtimes.
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It is always easy to be tolerant and understanding...Until someone presents an opinion completely opposite to your own.
When you boil both beliefs down you are just left with faith. Is believing that your faith is superior to others faith tenable? Could a Christian explain to me how their faith that the antichrist will come and the world will end is different from a 2012 believer?
I'm sure I'm not alone in saying that I'm a Christian who doesn't put much stock in the predictive power of the Apocalypse of St. John (which was clearly not written by the same author as the Gospel of St. John, but anyways). End times hysteria is no different than any other hysteria, and discerning persons will steer clear of it. The important thing for a Christian is not that the world may end at any moment, but that your world may end at any moment. So if death comes for you tomorrow "like a thief in the night," you want to have lived a life worthy of your calling.
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Love. Forgive. Trust. Be willing to be broken that you may be remade.
Go to any large library and look at the books on Revelations, it's huge.
Revelations is a generic "prediction" with no time stamp on it, or else the time stamp has since past, i.e. the Roman Empire is dead and gone or "evil" cycles and God comes to vanquish Satan, ect. for that era.
2012, is end of the world period at a specific day and time. We pass that day and time, poof no more legend. And there was another factor about the interpretation of that legend anyway, some scholars think the Mayan cycle meant an age of enlightenment or something really good happening without any stock in that belief anyway as a "modern" person.
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Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
Oh, there's a very noticeable difference between the two. The 2012 idea is readily verifiable: wait until the set date and observe. The Christian apocalypse is ill-defined, many interpretations about when it should occur, or should have occurred, are out there, so it's much easier to believe in.
Even just in a coin-flipping game, I figure you'd bet I'll get the first ten terms of the Fibonacci sequence (expressed in binary with heads as 1) in order, unconsecutively, over an indefinite period of time before you bet that I'd get a consecutive sequence of 100 heads results when I start flipping tomorrow morning at 5am.
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[The Crafters] | [Johnnies United]
My anecdotal evidence disagrees with yours! EXPLAIN THAT!
2012 isn't supposed to be an apocalypse, but rather a new age for humanity...a change of life "as we know it". Or at least so I hear from people that are into that. I do believe some people have the gift of foresight, but waiting is the only way to see if the Mayans were onto anything with their accurate calender ending that year.
(ok that video is the part i wanted but it didn't originally have the subtitles and little text additions to the videos, so realize someone else put that on the video after he passed away)
Yes, it can be tenable to say that one faith is more valid than another. Science requires a small amount of faith, and (I assume) you value that much more highly than religion. Contrary to popular belief, there are many degrees of faith.
I think most of revelations is written in specific context to early christians, aka alusions to Nero etc.
Or a giant 7 headed best could come out of the water morrow and Id be wrong.
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Don't you see that the whole aim of Moderators is to narrow the range of thought? In the end we shall make infractions literally impossible, because there will be no words in which to express it. Every concept that can ever be needed, will be expressed by exactly one word, with its meaning rigidly defined and all its subsidiary meanings rubbed out and forgotten.
Oh, there's a very noticeable difference between the two. The 2012 idea is readily verifiable: wait until the set date and observe.
Have you ever heard of William Miller? He predicted that the Apocalypse would happen on October 22, 1844. It didn't. So he came up with another date. Ad infinitum. The Millerites evolved into the Seventh-Day Adventists.
It's not that easy.
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Sing lustily and with good courage.
Be aware of singing as if you were half dead,
or half asleep:
but lift your voice with strength.
Be no more afraid of your voice now,
nor more ashamed of its being heard,
than when you sang the songs of Satan.
2012 isn't supposed to be an apocalypse, but rather a new age for humanity...a change of life "as we know it". Or at least so I hear from people that are into that. I do believe some people have the gift of foresight, but waiting is the only way to see if the Mayans were onto anything with their accurate calender ending that year.
(ok that video is the part i wanted but it didn't originally have the subtitles and little text additions to the videos, so realize someone else put that on the video after he passed away)
Not only is it supposed to just be a new age, and not an apocalypse, the changes aren't supposed to happen at 12:01am the day after the Solstice.
I thought, though, that this upcoming period was supposed to be defined by struggle over resources, and the one AFTER it was the period of unification and peace, but maybe I just don't pay attention.
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Everything is true in some sense, false in some sense, meaningless in some sense, true and false in some sense, true and meaningless in some sense, false and meaningless in some sense, and true, false, and meaningless in some sense. Repeat this 666 times and you will reach enlightenment.
In some sense. The only good fnord is a dead fnord.
Oh, there's a very noticeable difference between the two. The 2012 idea is readily verifiable: wait until the set date and observe. The Christian apocalypse is ill-defined, many interpretations about when it should occur, or should have occurred, are out there, so it's much easier to believe in.
Wiki sez, Rapture happened in:
1988 - Publication of 88 Reasons why the Rapture is in 1988, by Edgar C. Whisenant.
1989 - Publication of The final shout: Rapture report 1989, by Edgar Whisenant.
1992 - Korean group "Mission for the Coming Days" predicted October 28, 1992 as the date for the rapture.
1993 - Seven years before the year 2000. The rapture would have to start to allow for seven years of the Tribulation before the Return in 2000. Multiple predictions.
1994 - Pastor John Hinkle of Christ Church in Los Angeles predicted June 9, 1994. Radio evangelist Harold Camping predicted September 27, 1994.[38]
1997 /2009 - In 1983 Richard Schiller (aka Elijah) claimed parallel alignment to all the WatchTower did with the 94 years of the rebuilt Jerusalem 537-443 BC as 1914-2008 AD. In this span of 49 Jubilees (Daniel's 7 weeks) as a 50th it fell on events for every event recorded everywhere in OT which ends with Artaxerxes 32nd year (Nehemiah & Malachi). He felt the events of year 20 equating 455 BC with 1996 AD were more probable an Armageddon than year 32 equating 443 BC with 2008 AD, placing Armageddon in 1997 and 2009 (the most ominous events of the year presumed split for Yom Kippur then Passover. Only Yom Kippur 2009 now remains to fulfill both events.)
The people who believe that 2012 will be the end of the world are no different than any mainstream Christian who believes the apocalypse will eventually happen.
Both are based on ambiguous predictions by crazy men thousands of years ago. I fail to see the difference between Nostradamus and Revelations. Yet I have seen practicing Christians laugh about the "crazies" who would even think to believe that the world will end in 2012, but if questioned would undoubtedly confess belief in the "predictions" of revelations.
When you boil both beliefs down you are just left with faith. Is believing that your faith is superior to others faith tenable? Could a Christian explain to me how their faith that the antichrist will come and the world will end is different from a 2012 believer?
EDIT: This is not a post to debate whether faith is valid or not, it's about whether a religious person can actually justify believing one faith is superior to another. 2012 was just an example, you could compare it to Islam or Hinduism, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. I understand that people can and do choose to believe their faith is superior, but I would like to see their arguments for doing so.
Yes, they're people with their own opinions and all, but when someone says something blatantly nonsensical, I thought it was common sense to ignore such trolls and then make some research so one can come up with one's own conclusions and thoughts on the matter. There's no need to mock them.
Pay them no attention and problem solved. Ignore them.
Sure, some people are going to believe set Biblical apocalypse dates, just as some people believe in the 2012 idea. I wouldn't be surprised if they had similar rates in gathering believers. But the following for any of those set dates doesn't compare to the number of Christians in the world who believe in an undetermined apocalypse.
Come to think of it, wasn't there a verse specifically saying we won't get advance notice? Or am I thinking of a different event?
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[The Crafters] | [Johnnies United]
My anecdotal evidence disagrees with yours! EXPLAIN THAT!
And some people who take the Bible very seriously are 'fixing' it, although I believe the Bible also has clear instructions about not messing with the Bible.
Current translations need to have their liberal bias removed, their economic free-market parables expressed and their socialist language removed, among other things, apparently.
Quote from Conservapedia »
the conservative word "volunteer" is mentioned only once in the ESV [English standard version], yet the socialistic word "comrade" is used three times, "laborer(s)" is used 13 times, "labored" 15 times, and "fellow" (as in "fellow worker") is used 55 times.
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Quote from MD »
I am willing to bet my collection that Frozen and Solid are not on the same card. For example, Frozen Tomb and Solid Wall.
If Frozen Solid is not reprinted, you are aware that I'm quoting you in my sig for eternity?
And some people who take the Bible very seriously are 'fixing' it, although I believe the Bible also has clear instructions about not messing with the Bible.
Current translations need to have their liberal bias removed, their economic free-market parables expressed and their socialist language removed, among other things, apparently.
Very true, but also very wrong thread. This should go in one of the philosophy threads on religion.
I had no idea about the verse saying the date was unknown. Huh. Just like the "don't pray in public" verse, that one gets outright ignored.
Because they are an easy source of amusement. As is Conservapedia.
You know what's the worse part of all this? If the end of the world does happen, in the few hours of pain and agony, everyone will claim "they" had been right and correctly predicted it.
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It is always easy to be tolerant and understanding...Until someone presents an opinion completely opposite to your own.
The government announced today that it is changing it's national symbol to a condom because it more acurately reflects the governments political stance. A condom allows for inflation, halts production, destroys the next generation, protects a bunch of pricks, and gives you a sense of security while you're actually being screwed.
Damn, it just doesn't get more accurate than that!
Very true, but also very wrong thread. This should go in one of the philosophy threads on religion.
I had no idea about the verse saying the date was unknown. Huh. Just like the "don't pray in public" verse, that one gets outright ignored.
Actually, the verse says to not pray in the public for the purpose of gaining glory.
Now, back to the topic. One significant difference between the Christian doctrine of the end of the world and the Mayan belief of 2012 is that the Mayans never made a claim that the world would end in 2012. They just ended a calendar on that date without explaining why that date and what would be next.
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Guns don't kill people. Bullets kill people. Guns just make them move really, really fast.
Aren't there astronomical reasons for the date? I thought it was the completion of the processional calendar based on the date far in the past some part of the calendar begins...? Christ, I've read a ton about their astronomical knowledge and the calendar and such, but I didnt absorb any of it.
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Everything is true in some sense, false in some sense, meaningless in some sense, true and false in some sense, true and meaningless in some sense, false and meaningless in some sense, and true, false, and meaningless in some sense. Repeat this 666 times and you will reach enlightenment.
In some sense. The only good fnord is a dead fnord.
Aren't there astronomical reasons for the date? I thought it was the completion of the processional calendar based on the date far in the past some part of the calendar begins...? Christ, I've read a ton about their astronomical knowledge and the calendar and such, but I didnt absorb any of it.
It was probably astronomically related, but the mayans also made a lot of calendars for a lot of things. They also tended to have finishing dates and would make new calendars when they ran out.
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Guns don't kill people. Bullets kill people. Guns just make them move really, really fast.
2012 isn't supposed to be an apocalypse, but rather a new age for humanity...a change of life "as we know it". Or at least so I hear from people that are into that. I do believe some people have the gift of foresight, but waiting is the only way to see if the Mayans were onto anything with their accurate calender ending that year.
It's more like the Long Count calendar's correspondence with the other calendars Y2K than anything else.
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"But then are we most in order when we are most out of order."-Jack Cade
"That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may die."
- H.P. Lovecraft
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Both are based on ambiguous predictions by crazy men thousands of years ago. I fail to see the difference between Nostradamus and Revelations. Yet I have seen practicing Christians laugh about the "crazies" who would even think to believe that the world will end in 2012, but if questioned would undoubtedly confess belief in the "predictions" of revelations.
When you boil both beliefs down you are just left with faith. Is believing that your faith is superior to others faith tenable? Could a Christian explain to me how their faith that the antichrist will come and the world will end is different from a 2012 believer?
EDIT: This is not a post to debate whether faith is valid or not, it's about whether a religious person can actually justify believing one faith is superior to another. 2012 was just an example, you could compare it to Islam or Hinduism, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. I understand that people can and do choose to believe their faith is superior, but I would like to see their arguments for doing so.
And of course, "you" know the way to save everyone. Notice there's not many end of world story without a way to save yourself. That would just be silly.
Yet we seem to stay attached to the idea of the End for some twisted reason. We've been through so many "endtimes" already. Heck, Jehovahs Witnesses have regular cataclysms times. And let's not forget the infamous Y2K that was suppose to make all computers explode, send nukes in random targets and all sorts of crazy things. It's almost like in a weird twisted way, we want the endtimes to happen now, while we're alive, so that we may witness the final unmaking.
So no, there's no difference between 2012, Armegeddon, the Apocalypse, Ragnarok or any other endtimes.
I'm sure I'm not alone in saying that I'm a Christian who doesn't put much stock in the predictive power of the Apocalypse of St. John (which was clearly not written by the same author as the Gospel of St. John, but anyways). End times hysteria is no different than any other hysteria, and discerning persons will steer clear of it. The important thing for a Christian is not that the world may end at any moment, but that your world may end at any moment. So if death comes for you tomorrow "like a thief in the night," you want to have lived a life worthy of your calling.
Revelations is a generic "prediction" with no time stamp on it, or else the time stamp has since past, i.e. the Roman Empire is dead and gone or "evil" cycles and God comes to vanquish Satan, ect. for that era.
2012, is end of the world period at a specific day and time. We pass that day and time, poof no more legend. And there was another factor about the interpretation of that legend anyway, some scholars think the Mayan cycle meant an age of enlightenment or something really good happening without any stock in that belief anyway as a "modern" person.
Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
Even just in a coin-flipping game, I figure you'd bet I'll get the first ten terms of the Fibonacci sequence (expressed in binary with heads as 1) in order, unconsecutively, over an indefinite period of time before you bet that I'd get a consecutive sequence of 100 heads results when I start flipping tomorrow morning at 5am.
http://video.google.com/videosearch?hl=en&q=ian%20lun%20gold&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wv#
(ok that video is the part i wanted but it didn't originally have the subtitles and little text additions to the videos, so realize someone else put that on the video after he passed away)
"We do not see things as they are. We see them as we are." Anias Nin
"The search for love is but the honest searching out of everything that interferes with love."
"When my heart is at peace, the world is at peace." Chinese proverb
Or a giant 7 headed best could come out of the water morrow and Id be wrong.
Have you ever heard of William Miller? He predicted that the Apocalypse would happen on October 22, 1844. It didn't. So he came up with another date. Ad infinitum. The Millerites evolved into the Seventh-Day Adventists.
It's not that easy.
Be aware of singing as if you were half dead,
or half asleep:
but lift your voice with strength.
Be no more afraid of your voice now,
nor more ashamed of its being heard,
than when you sang the songs of Satan.
Not only is it supposed to just be a new age, and not an apocalypse, the changes aren't supposed to happen at 12:01am the day after the Solstice.
I thought, though, that this upcoming period was supposed to be defined by struggle over resources, and the one AFTER it was the period of unification and peace, but maybe I just don't pay attention.
In some sense. The only good fnord is a dead fnord.
Wiki sez, Rapture happened in:
Yes, they're people with their own opinions and all, but when someone says something blatantly nonsensical, I thought it was common sense to ignore such trolls and then make some research so one can come up with one's own conclusions and thoughts on the matter. There's no need to mock them.
Pay them no attention and problem solved. Ignore them.
I like 4/4s for 7.
(And Mr. Stuff's post)
Sure, some people are going to believe set Biblical apocalypse dates, just as some people believe in the 2012 idea. I wouldn't be surprised if they had similar rates in gathering believers. But the following for any of those set dates doesn't compare to the number of Christians in the world who believe in an undetermined apocalypse.
Come to think of it, wasn't there a verse specifically saying we won't get advance notice? Or am I thinking of a different event?
No, you're right. "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only." (Matthew 24:36)
Some people who take the Bible very seriously... don't take it very seriously.
http://conservapedia.com/Conservative_Bible_Project
Current translations need to have their liberal bias removed, their economic free-market parables expressed and their socialist language removed, among other things, apparently.
Very true, but also very wrong thread. This should go in one of the philosophy threads on religion.
I had no idea about the verse saying the date was unknown. Huh. Just like the "don't pray in public" verse, that one gets outright ignored.
Because they are an easy source of amusement. As is Conservapedia.
You know what's the worse part of all this? If the end of the world does happen, in the few hours of pain and agony, everyone will claim "they" had been right and correctly predicted it.
Elsewhere (don't know where) it says it will come "like a thief in the night."
Aren't there any other religious apocalypse's?
The government announced today that it is changing it's national symbol to a condom because it more acurately reflects the governments political stance. A condom allows for inflation, halts production, destroys the next generation, protects a bunch of pricks, and gives you a sense of security while you're actually being screwed.
Damn, it just doesn't get more accurate than that!
Actually, the verse says to not pray in the public for the purpose of gaining glory.
Now, back to the topic. One significant difference between the Christian doctrine of the end of the world and the Mayan belief of 2012 is that the Mayans never made a claim that the world would end in 2012. They just ended a calendar on that date without explaining why that date and what would be next.
In some sense. The only good fnord is a dead fnord.
It was probably astronomically related, but the mayans also made a lot of calendars for a lot of things. They also tended to have finishing dates and would make new calendars when they ran out.
"That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may die."
- H.P. Lovecraft