*IMPORTANT* DO NOT CITE PAST EVENTS IN YOUR ARGUEMENT. I AM TALKING ABOUT THE PRESENT*
First of all, I am not being racist or trying to be racist in any way. Anyone who accuses me of the such will be ignored and will be branded an idiot. I am not talking about every minority, but I am talking about a lot of them.
This is an issue that has come to me in the past couple of years. I believe that many minorities have been self-segregating themselves to reap benefits from society. Think about it- the race card is played by blacks in many situations. One that springs to my mind is college admission. Colleges began fearing black people and other minorities calling "racist!" when they denied college admission, so now we have the lovely quota system. This limits the amount of hard-working students that can be accepted and replaces them with self-labeled "ghetto" inner city kids that end up dropping out. But nobody complains. Nobody wants to speak up in public about quotas, for fear of being branded a racist themselves, when they are trying to speak out against a self-segregating system that is supported by the segregated.
So how do these minorities self-segregate? One example is the entire "ghetto culture." Many inner city underprivileged minority youth dress, speak, and act like the complete idiots. They perpetuate the entire stereotype. And when ol' whitey comes along and calls them ghetto or calls them the n world(albeit wrong, although black people call themselves it all the time), he gets fried and is called a cracker and is branded a racist. Hell, even Al Sharpton does it.
Another issue is the whole "slavery" deal with blacks, (and "holocaust" deal with Jewish people, but them not so much). They are not slaves anymore, why act like it happened yesterday, they have there rights, but they insist on perpetuating the stereotype that they are angry slaves.
Well, this is the end of my short ramble. If you think I'm full of crap and don't know what the hell I'm talking about, I studied American history for 2 years, with extensive study on civil rights, and I live in a very mixed community.
This is an issue that has come to me in the past couple of years. I believe that many minorities have been self-segregating themselves to reap benefits from society. Think about it- the race card is played by blacks in many situations. One that springs to my mind is college admission. Colleges began fearing black people and other minorities calling "racist!" when they denied college admission, so now we have the lovely quota system. This limits the amount of hard-working students that can be accepted and replaces them with self-labeled "ghetto" inner city kids that end up dropping out. But nobody complains. Nobody wants to speak up in public about quotas, for fear of being branded a racist themselves, when they are trying to speak out against a self-segregating system that is supported by the segregated.
This whole section would be much more compelling if you actually cited facts.
So how do these minorities self-segregate? One example is the entire "ghetto culture." Many inner city underprivileged minority youth dress, speak, and act like the complete idiots. They perpetuate the entire stereotype. And when ol' whitey comes along and calls them ghetto or calls them the n world(albeit wrong, although black people call themselves it all the time), he gets fried and is called a cracker and is branded a racist. Hell, even Al Sharpton does it.
I have no idea what you mean by "act like complete idiots". & also, cultures develop in isolated communities. That's how it happens. I'm not sure why you don't seem to take exception to Jewish culture in Brooklyn, or, for that matter, white culture in the suburbs.
Another issue is the whole "slavery" deal with blacks, (and "holocaust" deal with Jewish people, but them not so much). They are not slaves anymore, why act like it happened yesterday, they have there rights, but they insist on perpetuating the stereotype that they are angry slaves.
This whole section would be much more compelling if you actually cited facts.
I have no idea what you mean by "act like complete idiots". & also, cultures develop in isolated communities. That's how it happens. I'm not sure why you don't seem to take exception to Jewish culture in Brooklyn, or, for that matter, white culture in the suburbs.
What are you even talking about? O.o
Sorry, this was a discussion on a thread in WTC, and a mod suggested it be moved here so I made one and posted my opinion.
Also, I'm talking about how black people still cite slavery as a reason they are still oppressed. Put 2x2 together.
Also, I'm talking about how black people still cite slavery as a reason they are still oppressed. Put 2x2 together.
Right. I get that. What I don't get is your objection, since it's pretty much the case. Slavery, and the subsequent oppression, especially but not exclusively in the South, is directly related to their current situation.
First of all, I am not being racist or trying to be racist in any way. Anyone who accuses me of the such will be ignored and will be branded an idiot. I am not talking about every minority, but I am talking about a lot of them.
This is an issue that has come to me in the past couple of years. I believe that many minorities have been self-segregating themselves to reap benefits from society. Think about it- the race card is played by blacks in many situations. One that springs to my mind is college admission. Colleges began fearing black people and other minorities calling "racist!" when they denied college admission, so now we have the lovely quota system. This limits the amount of hard-working students that can be accepted and replaces them with self-labeled "ghetto" inner city kids that end up dropping out. But nobody complains. Nobody wants to speak up in public about quotas, for fear of being branded a racist themselves, when they are trying to speak out against a self-segregating system that is supported by the segregated.
There is no advantage to self-segregation. None whatsoever. Your college admission example reminds me of when I was applying to schools. I was a B+ student(and thats with no effort!) and so I pretty much had my pick of schools. One thing that bothered me though was that I might get accepted to a college solely because I was Black or even because I was a woman. Quotas haunt talented minority students just as they haunt White students. I'm against affirmative action in colleges and blue collar workplaces because I think its an antiquated policy where those areas are concerned.
So how do these minorities self-segregate? One example is the entire "ghetto culture." Many inner city underprivileged minority youth dress, speak, and act like the complete idiots. They perpetuate the entire stereotype.
So those suburbanite Aeropostale wearing tools don't look stupid or act stupid, right? The way Black folks talk is like comparing American English to UK English. The core is the same but culture makes them different animals in some ways.
And when ol' whitey comes along and calls them ghetto or calls them the n world(albeit wrong, although black people call themselves it all the time), he gets fried and is called a cracker and is branded a racist. Hell, even Al Sharpton does it.
It isn't anyone's job to "correct" someone else's culture. Its ignorant and makes you come off like some kind of elitist. Also, alot of Black people think Al Sharpton is a nut. Jessie and Al are getting old and are saying some crazy ass things in public. They need to quit having senior moments in public or step aside and let someone else become the voices of civil rights in the Black community.
Another issue is the whole "slavery" deal with blacks, (and "holocaust" deal with Jewish people, but them not so much). They are not slaves anymore, why act like it happened yesterday, they have there rights, but they insist on perpetuating the stereotype that they are angry slaves.
Because the injustice that followed slavery didn't officially end until damn near 1970. My mom was nearly 10 when the Civil Rights Acts were passed! Its insane that more than a century passed since the end of the Civil War before any major civil rights acts were passed. The 14th Amendment made all Blacks citizens but it didn't give equal rights. Also, the Holocaust and slavery in the US are not the least bit comparable. The Holocaust was the action of one government, an action that called for the genocide of Jews and other "undesirable" groups as well as forced labor, death marches, and horrible experiments. The death toll of the Holocaust was between 11 and 17 million people. Slavery in the US involved the capture and sale by numerous nationalities and denial of liberty of peoples deemed inhuman by some. Blacks were the property of those who owned them and subject to torture, death, and/or seperation from their family. Heck, Black were a taxable commodity! Every 3 out of 5 was taxed. Blacks spent their whole life toiling without pay or relief, knowing they would be worked until they died and that their children's lives would be much the same. Its unclear how many Blacks died in bondage. Many died on the way to the Americas, between 10 and 20 percent, and that number alone is just about the death toll of the Holocaust.
Well, this is the end of my short ramble. If you think I'm full of crap and don't know what the hell I'm talking about, I studied American history for 2 years, with extensive study on civil rights, and I live in a very mixed community.
I love it when people complain about another ethnicity and then throw their hands up defensively and say "Hey I have a Black friend so I'm not racist.". *lol* Its not wrong to have racist sentiments. Its wrong to assume everyone of your culture feels the same way and to push your beliefs on other people.
There is no advantage to self-segregation. None whatsoever. Your college admission example reminds me of when I was applying to schools. I was a B+ student(and thats with no effort!) and so I pretty much had my pick of schools. One thing that bothered me though was that I might get accepted to a college solely because I was Black or even because I was a woman. Quotas haunt talented minority students just as they haunt White students. I'm against affirmative action in colleges and blue collar workplaces because I think its an antiquated policy where those areas are concerned.
So those suburbanite Aeropostale wearing tools don't look stupid or act stupid, right? The way Black folks talk is like comparing American English to UK English. The core is the same but culture makes them different animals in some ways.
It isn't anyone's job to "correct" someone else's culture. Its ignorant and makes you come off like some kind of elitist. Also, alot of Black people think Al Sharpton is a nut. Jessie and Al are getting old and are saying some crazy ass things in public. They need to quit having senior moments in public or step aside and let someone else become the voices of civil rights in the Black community.
Because the injustice that followed slavery didn't officially end until damn near 1970. My mom was nearly 10 when the Civil Rights Acts were passed! Its insane that more than a century passed since the end of the Civil War before any major civil rights acts were passed. The 14th Amendment made all Blacks citizens but it didn't give equal rights. Also, the Holocaust and slavery in the US are not the least bit comparable. The Holocaust was the action of one government, an action that called for the genocide of Jews and other "undesirable" groups as well as forced labor, death marches, and horrible experiments. The death toll of the Holocaust was between 11 and 17 million people. Slavery in the US involved the capture and sale by numerous nationalities and denial of liberty of peoples deemed inhuman by some. Blacks were the property of those who owned them and subject to torture, death, and/or seperation from their family. Heck, Black were a taxable commodity! Every 3 out of 5 was taxed. Blacks spent their whole life toiling without pay or relief, knowing they would be worked until they died and that their children's lives would be much the same. Its unclear how many Blacks died in bondage. Many died on the way to the Americas, between 10 and 20 percent, and that number alone is just about the death toll of the Holocaust.
I love it when people complain about another ethnicity and then throw their hands up defensively and say "Hey I have a Black friend so I'm not racist.". *lol* Its not wrong to have racist sentiments. Its wrong to assume everyone of your culture feels the same way and to push your beliefs on other people.
I never said I had a black friend, did I? In my school there are no black students that are in my grade level, but I don't hate them.
Maybe it is not so important for some people to break their backs to try to meet pompous, superficial expectations of prim tidiness, broad literacy, and immaculate civility.
When one's perception of a stereotype is "perpetuated," it is implicit of one's own stubbornness, nothing more.
Fit generalizations to people, and create new generalizations when necessary to make people comfortable.
Don't try to fit people into existing generalizations you've made if it makes them feel uncomfortable. That really defeats the purpose of it all.
I agree with the sentiment that to brand someone negatively for his or her actions is to intensify the hostility involved rather than to relieve it.
Please, do not try to identify people with the term "blacks." Blacks are chess pieces. Melanin is a salt.
Recognition of the stereotype is perpetuation of the stereotype. Maybe if everyone were shown the benefit of a doubt, and their priorities and interests were given more respect, rather than immediately associated with a possibly-inapplicable stereotype, everyone would realize that "self-segregation" is the natural default state of bodies in a multi-dimensional world.
The pervasiveness of a culture does not somehow elevate its traditions to some objective "normality" to which everyone must properly conform.
I think you may genuinely be taking for granted the significance of cultural diversity.
And you live in a very mixed community? I hope you're referring here to the specialization of cells in your body.
Let's put it this way: 25% of my school is white.
Also, I'm not going to use the term "African-American," nor will anyone use the term "Caucasian." These are two roundabout terms for black and white.
I never said I had a black friend, did I? In my school there are no black students that are in my grade level, but I don't hate them.
I know you didn't say that. You did say you live in a diverse setting though. Thats generally code for the ghetto. I hail from Buffalo, NY and by most standards its a diverse area. We have alot of current immigrants, mostly from Africa but some from Western and Southern Europe too, as well as a large population of 2nd generation Americans mostly from Central and Southern Europe and Puerto Rico. Buffalo is a vertible hot bed of racism and bigotry. Just last month a White man was walking down the street with his girlfriend, who was Black, and a group of Black teens beat the crap out of him. They used cement blocks on his face and head. Hardly anyone talked about the incident until the pastor at Buffalo's major Baptist church went on the record and said that this would have been front page news if some White kids had beaten a Black teen. Isn't it great living in a diverse setting?
Quota systems don't help minorities as much as you think they do. As Bitsy alluded to earlier it just reaffirms prejudice in Whites, essentially the concept of a quota system is a 'reason' to be racist. If you are going to label blacks as 'ghetto' and incapable of achieving higher education (you might want to check who the President is right now), you should probably actually cite statistics rather than playing off racial stereotypes. Saying black students aren't hard-working or they are ghetto really doesn't make you look civil. And there are PLENTY of people who currently speak out against Affirmative Action and they have the right to do so.
I'd agree with your assessment that minorities, specifically blacks, are quite impoverished compared to whites. Self-segregation does happen right now, at an alarming rate, although it is way more a product of certain variables than an actual choice as you make it out to be. The main variable of course is that blacks are living in more urban areas, while whites are living in more suburban areas, for reasons that should be completely obvious.
Slavery might not have happened yesterday, but the repurcussions of it ended yesterday, but you could say they never ended at all. You being a history buff should get the fact that minorities didn't recieve equal rights until the mid 1960's and the implementation of those given rights has been a slow and sometimes unsteady process.
But they got their rights, right? I know it took several years after the passing of the ERA to enforce it but it did happen.
Also, alot of Black people think Al Sharpton is a nut. Jessie and Al are getting old and are saying some crazy ass things in public. They need to quit having senior moments in public or step aside and let someone else become the voices of civil rights in the Black community.
To make matters worse, the issues facing that community have radically changed since they marched with Martin Luther King. Most of their comments make it clear they still live in a Sixties thought-world. Younger men and women like the Obamas are doing far more just by living the post-racial dream. (Although other young 'uns like Kanye West can still stir up a ****-storm...)
Because the injustice that followed slavery didn't officially end until damn near 1970. My mom was nearly 10 when the Civil Rights Acts were passed! Its insane that more than a century passed since the end of the Civil War before any major civil rights acts were passed. The 14th Amendment made all Blacks citizens but it didn't give equal rights.
They were doing pretty well there for a while during Reconstruction. The 14th Amendment was supposed to grant equal rights - I mean, seriously, saying "so-and-so is a citizen" really ought to be enough. But once the Federals moved out, the South used willful ignorance of the Amendment's meaning (and took full advantage of Northern apathy) to turn the former Confederacy back into Racism Central.
Heck, Black were a taxable commodity! Every 3 out of 5 was taxed.
This is misleading. By the same standard that three out of five slaves (black or otherwise) were "taxed", five out of five free citizens were likewise taxed. The Compromise was over the apportionment of taxes (and representatives) based on population.
This is not to say that slaves were not considered taxable property. Nor that the Compromise was not a hideous slap in the face to the slave population, forcing them to prop up the South's political as well as economic power.
The main variable of course is that blacks are living in more urban areas, while whites are living in more suburban areas, for reasons that should be completely obvious.
There are plenty of inner-city whites, to say nothing of inner-city Latinos. And as the injustices of Jim Crow fade into the memories of the previous generation, a growing number of blacks are reaching the suburbs. In both areas, the amount of mingling going on is... not encouraging.
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Of course there isn't. But people are stupid, and therefore it happens.
One can, however, wish for greater integration between groups to create a more unified American culture. What comes out of a melting pot? Steel.
To make matters worse, the issues facing that community have radically changed since they marched with Martin Luther King. Most of their comments make it clear they still live in a Sixties thought-world. Younger men and women like the Obamas are doing far more just by living the post-racial dream. (Although other young 'uns like Kanye West can still stir up a ****-storm...)
They were doing pretty well there for a while during Reconstruction. The 14th Amendment was supposed to grant equal rights - I mean, seriously, saying "so-and-so is a citizen" really ought to be enough. But once the Federals moved out, the South used willful ignorance of the Amendment's meaning (and took full advantage of Northern apathy) to turn the former Confederacy back into Racism Central.
This is misleading. By the same standard that three out of five slaves (black or otherwise) were "taxed", five out of five free citizens were likewise taxed. The Compromise was over the apportionment of taxes (and representatives) based on population.
This is not to say that slaves were not considered taxable property. Nor that the Compromise was not a hideous slap in the face to the slave population, forcing them to prop up the South's political as well as economic power.
There are plenty of inner-city whites, to say nothing of inner-city Latinos. And as the injustices of Jim Crow fade into the memories of the previous generation, a growing number of blacks are reaching the suburbs. In both areas, the amount of mingling going on is... not encouraging.
You know your stuff!
Anyway, the 3/5ths rule was to count how many representatives each state would have in Congress. Each slave was 3/5ths of a person. This plan was not to tax, but in response to the north's complaint of the south's overwhelming population.
Also, think about this: Blacks can have the BET without any complaint, but if whites made a WET... that would be a whole other story.
There are plenty of inner-city whites, to say nothing of inner-city Latinos. And as the injustices of Jim Crow fade into the memories of the previous generation, a growing number of blacks are reaching the suburbs. In both areas, the amount of mingling going on is... not encouraging.
Do you have any stats on urban->suburban movement? Because I'd wager it's not so rosy a picture as you make it seem. These are some really tough problems.
So that we all don't think of this as a black and white issue, first-generation Asians segregrate themselves almost exclusively. I sure as hell know my parents never integrated into the white community they've found themselves in. It's a language barrier, a cultural barrier, and a values barrier (and we Asians tend to get the better of it). I'm sure it applies to the black-white divide as well.
First of all, I am not being racist or trying to be racist in any way. Anyone who accuses me of the such will be ignored and will be branded an idiot. I am not talking about every minority, but I am talking about a lot of them.
This is an issue that has come to me in the past couple of years. I believe that many minorities have been self-segregating themselves to reap benefits from society. Think about it- the race card is played by blacks in many situations. One that springs to my mind is college admission. Colleges began fearing black people and other minorities calling "racist!" when they denied college admission, so now we have the lovely quota system. This limits the amount of hard-working students that can be accepted and replaces them with self-labeled "ghetto" inner city kids that end up dropping out. But nobody complains. Nobody wants to speak up in public about quotas, for fear of being branded a racist themselves, when they are trying to speak out against a self-segregating system that is supported by the segregated.
If you want to whine about pulling the race card, well you are pulling the white man's race card in a society that believes that the minority is getting a free ride from the nice white man. How about the GI Bill where african Americans were promised an equal part too only to later be denied? After WWII, there was basically affirmative action for Whites, including the Jews, who before WWII were viewed not so highly in our society. Jewish people went from the working class, to the middle class to become professionals, etc. In turn, the African Americans who came back after serving were given "cement boots" instead - restrictive covenants, segregation, redlining, urban renewal, and discrimination.
How about Reconstruction where again, Afircan Americans, among several minorities were promised land and when it came down to it, they were left with nothing.
Affirmative action is certainly debatable, but there is little reason to look to the minority and further blame them. It is an attempt to fix the gap in society. It is trying to battle the discrimination that still exists today, which even statistics points towards as minorities hold many lower level jobs. The bigger problem is poverty, but either way, affirmative action is there because of problems with our society, not problems with minorities.
So how do these minorities self-segregate? One example is the entire "ghetto culture." Many inner city underprivileged minority youth dress, speak, and act like the complete idiots. They perpetuate the entire stereotype. And when ol' whitey comes along and calls them ghetto or calls them the n world(albeit wrong, although black people call themselves it all the time), he gets fried and is called a cracker and is branded a racist. Hell, even Al Sharpton does it.
The problem here is that you are mistaking one thing for another. The problem is poverty, which leads to a lack of opportunities to get a good education and to go on to get a good job, etc. They don't actually choose to act a certain way, but it is what they grow up with. I can't imagine how much edication you honestly have in such matters, but it sounds like you haven't even taken a sociology class since most of this stuff is pretty self evident. Not every african American who, "acts black" is poor and uneducated, but a big part of that culture developed from the ghetto, which has gone on to develop more and more to where society deems that as they way they are "supposed to act" in the same way that other races are "supposed to act".
Secondly, why even bring up the n word? Does that seriously need to be debated to extent? Take a word that was used specifically to degrade an entire race of people and be amazed that it offends them. Brilliant.
Another issue is the whole "slavery" deal with blacks, (and "holocaust" deal with Jewish people, but them not so much). They are not slaves anymore, why act like it happened yesterday, they have there rights, but they insist on perpetuating the stereotype that they are angry slaves.
Uh, maybe because the racism and many of the viewpoints from the days of slavery are still alive and well today? To be honest, how many times has an african american come up to you and went on a tirade about slavery? I doubt it is often enough to make you feel that it is brought up every day. One can make the argument that it may be brought up through ideas of, "putting the black man down" to inadvertently bring it up, but frankly, the American society does put down every minority as that is the way our society is structured. Go usa...
Well, this is the end of my short ramble. If you think I'm full of crap and don't know what the hell I'm talking about, I studied American history for 2 years, with extensive study on civil rights, and I live in a very mixed community.
Your school doesn't sound like a very mixed community and frankly, no, I don't think you have any idea what you are talking about, but you can learn. You seem to be eating out of what the media is feeding the masses, which is basically that minorities are all getting free rides from the white man and that minorities are all on the same playing field as the majority now. Unfortunately, even though our society has ended a lot of terrible laws and practices, it is pretty evident of the inferiority that still exists in the mind of a lot of the majorty.
Do you have any stats on urban->suburban movement? Because I'd wager it's not so rosy a picture as you make it seem. These are some really tough problems.
So that we all don't think of this as a black and white issue, first-generation Asians segregrate themselves almost exclusively. I sure as hell know my parents never integrated into the white community they've found themselves in. It's a language barrier, a cultural barrier, and a values barrier (and we Asians tend to get the better of it). I'm sure it applies to the black-white divide as well.
On the other hand, second-generation Asian Americans integrate pretty thoroughly these days. And "Chinatowns" are evaporating. I think this can probably be credited both to Asian-American culture pushing for integration into mainstream America rather than distinctiveness, and greater willingness from mainstream America to accept Asians* - but you'd know better than I. And whatever the cause, it doesn't exactly parallel the black or Hispanic experience. So while self-segregation isn't solely a black and white issue, I think it would be a mistake to be too loose about which cultures and social developments we're talking about.
*Interestingly, though, a friend of mine recently pointed out that while we've seen fictional black Presidents and other prominent authority figures in mainstream media for years, Asian characters in such roles are distinctly absent. Mainstream "acceptance" also seems to mean not taking Asians seriously, or at least taking them for granted: the stereotype is "normal person, usually a little nerdy". Not the worst stereotype you could end up with, but it's more insidious than something blatant and offensive. Besides, George Takei could play an awesome President.
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Vive, vale. Siquid novisti rectius istis,
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
So how do these minorities self-segregate? One example is the entire "ghetto culture." Many inner city underprivileged minority youth dress, speak, and act like the complete idiots.
I think the problem there is that "ghetto culture" is the only culture they readily identify with, even though it is a stereotype, because "mainstream culture" caters to suburban whites, not inner-city blacks or Latinos/Latinas.
Another issue is the whole "slavery" deal with blacks, (and "holocaust" deal with Jewish people, but them not so much). They are not slaves anymore, why act like it happened yesterday, they have there rights, but they insist on perpetuating the stereotype that they are angry slaves.
Not "slavery" so much as "Jim Crow," and that still goes on to some extent. (I heard Morgan Freeman did this thing about a high school in his hometown that still—as of 2009—has segregated proms.)
Well, this is the end of my short ramble. If you think I'm full of crap and don't know what the hell I'm talking about, I studied American history for 2 years, with extensive study on civil rights, and I live in a very mixed community.
Well there you go. If you lived in a very segregated community, I would have believed you. Somewhat sarcastic, but the point is, if it's actually "mixed," this implies a progressive attitude towards race and culture.
Please, do not try to identify people with the term "blacks." Blacks are chess pieces. Melanin is a salt.
Well... what would you use? "African"-Americans may not identify with that phrase any more than I would identify with "European"-American. I'm an American American!
Maybe if everyone were shown the benefit of a doubt, and their priorities and interests were given more respect, rather than immediately associated with a possibly-inapplicable stereotype, everyone would realize that "self-segregation" is the natural default state of bodies in a multi-dimensional world.
Yes, people readily identify with the familiar rather than the different. This is sometimes good, but it's also a source of a lot of problems, including the propagation of stereotyping and animosity towards "the other."
Also, I'm not going to use the term "African-American," nor will anyone use the term "Caucasian." These are two roundabout terms for black and white.
Not to mention that Caucasian is a rather inaccurate term, since not all people of European descent came from the Caucasus mountains... the question is, do we all have to take anthropology classes in order to properly identify people by ethnicity?
And as the injustices of Jim Crow fade into the memories of the previous generation, a growing number of blacks are reaching the suburbs. In both areas, the amount of mingling going on is... not encouraging.
Yeah... people don't get together and say "Hey, I'm white, you're black, let's hang out in a racially diverse way."
Mainstream "acceptance" also seems to mean not taking Asians seriously, or at least taking them for granted: the stereotype is "normal person, usually a little nerdy". Not the worst stereotype you could end up with, but it's more insidious than something blatant and offensive.
Yeah, not "Siamese cats in Lady and the Tramp" stereotypical... but I think the "a little nerdy" stereotype is more a diffraction of the prevalence of Asian-American contestants in depictions of spelling bees or other competitive academic activity. I dunno if this is statistically accurate, but it seems that Asian-American parents are extremely hardcore about success in those areas.
Let's stop distinguishing between "races" of people altogether. It's an arbitrary method of classification. There are genetic variances, but such variances occur on the individual level; the "racial" level is a heuristic. And if that would inconvenience our ability to assign blame to the appropriate "race," then great... that's precisely the discrepancy that we must address, if we are to escape the cycle of suspicion and disenfranchisement.
pretending we're colorblind exacerbates the issue. We shouldn't be afraid of the fact that we're different. Ethnicities form physical characteristics, just like sexes, they are impossible to ignore, and we shouldn't attempt to.
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My at-a-glance 'isms': (in no particular order)
1. Secular Humanism
2. Secular Millenarianism
a. Singularitarianism
b.Transhumanism
c. secular altruism
I argue that the ending of slavery was the worst thing to ever happen to blacks in america. it incidentally put them at a disadvantage in the american world. they went from being housed and fed to being on their own with no one to help them. noticed i didnt say they were well taken care of, but the necessities of life were given to them, even if not in the nicest fashion.
the white lineage dating back to the first american colonists gave the american white man a significant advantage over the blacks. think about it. when your dad dies, you get all his stuff, so to speak. so over the years the white race had naturally gained power and wealth, and even poorer families had processions. and then you drop black people into the freedom cup. they have no property, no real families because of the slave trade and whatnot, and no real skills other than the manual labor they used to do. so it set the black mind into a free-slave mentality, they're only option was to do the same manual labor on plantations they used to do, but for a little bit of money now. racism was very present in the south, where a majority of blacks lived, and remember there was no "minimum wage" back then. you do what youre best at, for whatever you can get paid to do it.
think about it in modern day application. today black people are thought of first and foremost as what... athletes and entertainers. when a you think of a scientist, not many people think of a black guy in a lab coat. its this kind of subliminal imprinting that puts the blacks in america at a disadvantage. but on the other hand, if you think of a wide receiver snatching a touchdown pass out of the air, or a basketball player slamming a ball through the hoop, your first thought is most likely blacks. its not to say that black people can't now achieve higher things, with the racial bonuses and 1Up's we give them so to speak. for instance, the aforementioned quotas of black students being admitted into colleges. and its also not to say that there arent smart black people, cause there are. but the late start in the american dream that was passed off to free blacks after the 13th amendment was no gift from god without a plan to effectively HELP the blacks reach success.
so in my own humble opinion the american black arent self-segregating,l but naturally disadvantaged by the american mental stereotype that puts them lower on the hypothetical totem pole
im white, so dont think im saying this all because i feel im an unprivileged, "nword" or something. but thats my opinion. thoughts?
the white lineage dating back to the first american colonists gave the american white man a significant advantage over the blacks. think about it. when your dad dies, you get all his stuff, so to speak. so over the years the white race had naturally gained power and wealth, and even poorer families had processions. and then you drop black people into the freedom cup. they have no property, no real families because of the slave trade and whatnot, and no real skills other than the manual labor they used to do. so it set the black mind into a free-slave mentality, they're only option was to do the same manual labor on plantations they used to do, but for a little bit of money now.
This isn't widely talked about but there were far more Blacks who were in skilled professions and trades than you'd think. In the South there wasn't much of a need for skilled workers except in the major cities but in the North Blacks filled a wide variety of roles. Clerks, shipwrights, cobblers, stonemasons, and any other profession you could associate with Whites. Except their work was attributed to their master and they weren't allowed into trade organizations.
Alot of Blacks in the South ended up sharecropping because they didn't want to leave their homes. They'd toiled on the land for decades or even centuries and even though it was in bondage the land became home to them. The North was the promise land before Emancipation but now anywhere could potentially be a good place for them to live. Many Blacks are emotionally invested in the South to this day, even if they've never lived there.
This isn't widely talked about but there were far more Blacks who were in skilled professions and trades than you'd think. In the South there wasn't much of a need for skilled workers except in the major cities but in the North Blacks filled a wide variety of roles. Clerks, shipwrights, cobblers, stonemasons, and any other profession you could associate with Whites. Except their work was attributed to their master and they weren't allowed into trade organizations.
that is true, they could all fill roles in the "white" community, but they were not accepted as part of it, because of widely rampant racism.
Alot of Blacks in the South ended up sharecropping because they didn't want to leave their homes. They'd toiled on the land for decades or even centuries and even though it was in bondage the land became home to them. The North was the promise land before Emancipation but now anywhere could potentially be a good place for them to live. Many Blacks are emotionally invested in the South to this day, even if they've never lived there.
that is true at this point in history. with the election of obama, whether unconscious or consiously, the american black's moral overall has been improving; there are more and more prominent successful blacks as role models for them to look up to. you have swayed my mind a bit. but this is a time of change indeed. haha.
First of all, I am not being racist or trying to be racist in any way. Anyone who accuses me of the such will be ignored and will be branded an idiot. I am not talking about every minority, but I am talking about a lot of them.
This is an issue that has come to me in the past couple of years. I believe that many minorities have been self-segregating themselves to reap benefits from society. Think about it- the race card is played by blacks in many situations. One that springs to my mind is college admission. Colleges began fearing black people and other minorities calling "racist!" when they denied college admission, so now we have the lovely quota system. This limits the amount of hard-working students that can be accepted and replaces them with self-labeled "ghetto" inner city kids that end up dropping out. But nobody complains. Nobody wants to speak up in public about quotas, for fear of being branded a racist themselves, when they are trying to speak out against a self-segregating system that is supported by the segregated.
So how do these minorities self-segregate? One example is the entire "ghetto culture." Many inner city underprivileged minority youth dress, speak, and act like the complete idiots. They perpetuate the entire stereotype. And when ol' whitey comes along and calls them ghetto or calls them the n world(albeit wrong, although black people call themselves it all the time), he gets fried and is called a cracker and is branded a racist. Hell, even Al Sharpton does it.
Another issue is the whole "slavery" deal with blacks, (and "holocaust" deal with Jewish people, but them not so much). They are not slaves anymore, why act like it happened yesterday, they have there rights, but they insist on perpetuating the stereotype that they are angry slaves.
Well, this is the end of my short ramble. If you think I'm full of crap and don't know what the hell I'm talking about, I studied American history for 2 years, with extensive study on civil rights, and I live in a very mixed community.
sup.
This whole section would be much more compelling if you actually cited facts.
I have no idea what you mean by "act like complete idiots". & also, cultures develop in isolated communities. That's how it happens. I'm not sure why you don't seem to take exception to Jewish culture in Brooklyn, or, for that matter, white culture in the suburbs.
What are you even talking about? O.o
Sorry, this was a discussion on a thread in WTC, and a mod suggested it be moved here so I made one and posted my opinion.
Also, I'm talking about how black people still cite slavery as a reason they are still oppressed. Put 2x2 together.
sup.
Right. I get that. What I don't get is your objection, since it's pretty much the case. Slavery, and the subsequent oppression, especially but not exclusively in the South, is directly related to their current situation.
Good luck trying to enforce these "rules".
There is no advantage to self-segregation. None whatsoever. Your college admission example reminds me of when I was applying to schools. I was a B+ student(and thats with no effort!) and so I pretty much had my pick of schools. One thing that bothered me though was that I might get accepted to a college solely because I was Black or even because I was a woman. Quotas haunt talented minority students just as they haunt White students. I'm against affirmative action in colleges and blue collar workplaces because I think its an antiquated policy where those areas are concerned.
So those suburbanite Aeropostale wearing tools don't look stupid or act stupid, right? The way Black folks talk is like comparing American English to UK English. The core is the same but culture makes them different animals in some ways.
It isn't anyone's job to "correct" someone else's culture. Its ignorant and makes you come off like some kind of elitist. Also, alot of Black people think Al Sharpton is a nut. Jessie and Al are getting old and are saying some crazy ass things in public. They need to quit having senior moments in public or step aside and let someone else become the voices of civil rights in the Black community.
Because the injustice that followed slavery didn't officially end until damn near 1970. My mom was nearly 10 when the Civil Rights Acts were passed! Its insane that more than a century passed since the end of the Civil War before any major civil rights acts were passed. The 14th Amendment made all Blacks citizens but it didn't give equal rights. Also, the Holocaust and slavery in the US are not the least bit comparable. The Holocaust was the action of one government, an action that called for the genocide of Jews and other "undesirable" groups as well as forced labor, death marches, and horrible experiments. The death toll of the Holocaust was between 11 and 17 million people. Slavery in the US involved the capture and sale by numerous nationalities and denial of liberty of peoples deemed inhuman by some. Blacks were the property of those who owned them and subject to torture, death, and/or seperation from their family. Heck, Black were a taxable commodity! Every 3 out of 5 was taxed. Blacks spent their whole life toiling without pay or relief, knowing they would be worked until they died and that their children's lives would be much the same. Its unclear how many Blacks died in bondage. Many died on the way to the Americas, between 10 and 20 percent, and that number alone is just about the death toll of the Holocaust.
I love it when people complain about another ethnicity and then throw their hands up defensively and say "Hey I have a Black friend so I'm not racist.". *lol* Its not wrong to have racist sentiments. Its wrong to assume everyone of your culture feels the same way and to push your beliefs on other people.
I never said I had a black friend, did I? In my school there are no black students that are in my grade level, but I don't hate them.
Let's put it this way: 25% of my school is white.
Also, I'm not going to use the term "African-American," nor will anyone use the term "Caucasian." These are two roundabout terms for black and white.
sup.
I know you didn't say that. You did say you live in a diverse setting though. Thats generally code for the ghetto. I hail from Buffalo, NY and by most standards its a diverse area. We have alot of current immigrants, mostly from Africa but some from Western and Southern Europe too, as well as a large population of 2nd generation Americans mostly from Central and Southern Europe and Puerto Rico. Buffalo is a vertible hot bed of racism and bigotry. Just last month a White man was walking down the street with his girlfriend, who was Black, and a group of Black teens beat the crap out of him. They used cement blocks on his face and head. Hardly anyone talked about the incident until the pastor at Buffalo's major Baptist church went on the record and said that this would have been front page news if some White kids had beaten a Black teen. Isn't it great living in a diverse setting?
But they got their rights, right? I know it took several years after the passing of the ERA to enforce it but it did happen.
sup.
Of course there isn't. But people are stupid, and therefore it happens.
One can, however, wish for greater integration between groups to create a more unified American culture. What comes out of a melting pot? Steel.
To make matters worse, the issues facing that community have radically changed since they marched with Martin Luther King. Most of their comments make it clear they still live in a Sixties thought-world. Younger men and women like the Obamas are doing far more just by living the post-racial dream. (Although other young 'uns like Kanye West can still stir up a ****-storm...)
They were doing pretty well there for a while during Reconstruction. The 14th Amendment was supposed to grant equal rights - I mean, seriously, saying "so-and-so is a citizen" really ought to be enough. But once the Federals moved out, the South used willful ignorance of the Amendment's meaning (and took full advantage of Northern apathy) to turn the former Confederacy back into Racism Central.
This is misleading. By the same standard that three out of five slaves (black or otherwise) were "taxed", five out of five free citizens were likewise taxed. The Compromise was over the apportionment of taxes (and representatives) based on population.
This is not to say that slaves were not considered taxable property. Nor that the Compromise was not a hideous slap in the face to the slave population, forcing them to prop up the South's political as well as economic power.
There are plenty of inner-city whites, to say nothing of inner-city Latinos. And as the injustices of Jim Crow fade into the memories of the previous generation, a growing number of blacks are reaching the suburbs. In both areas, the amount of mingling going on is... not encouraging.
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You know your stuff!
Anyway, the 3/5ths rule was to count how many representatives each state would have in Congress. Each slave was 3/5ths of a person. This plan was not to tax, but in response to the north's complaint of the south's overwhelming population.
Also, think about this: Blacks can have the BET without any complaint, but if whites made a WET... that would be a whole other story.
sup.
Do you have any stats on urban->suburban movement? Because I'd wager it's not so rosy a picture as you make it seem. These are some really tough problems.
So that we all don't think of this as a black and white issue, first-generation Asians segregrate themselves almost exclusively. I sure as hell know my parents never integrated into the white community they've found themselves in. It's a language barrier, a cultural barrier, and a values barrier (and we Asians tend to get the better of it). I'm sure it applies to the black-white divide as well.
If you want to whine about pulling the race card, well you are pulling the white man's race card in a society that believes that the minority is getting a free ride from the nice white man. How about the GI Bill where african Americans were promised an equal part too only to later be denied? After WWII, there was basically affirmative action for Whites, including the Jews, who before WWII were viewed not so highly in our society. Jewish people went from the working class, to the middle class to become professionals, etc. In turn, the African Americans who came back after serving were given "cement boots" instead - restrictive covenants, segregation, redlining, urban renewal, and discrimination.
How about Reconstruction where again, Afircan Americans, among several minorities were promised land and when it came down to it, they were left with nothing.
Affirmative action is certainly debatable, but there is little reason to look to the minority and further blame them. It is an attempt to fix the gap in society. It is trying to battle the discrimination that still exists today, which even statistics points towards as minorities hold many lower level jobs. The bigger problem is poverty, but either way, affirmative action is there because of problems with our society, not problems with minorities.
The problem here is that you are mistaking one thing for another. The problem is poverty, which leads to a lack of opportunities to get a good education and to go on to get a good job, etc. They don't actually choose to act a certain way, but it is what they grow up with. I can't imagine how much edication you honestly have in such matters, but it sounds like you haven't even taken a sociology class since most of this stuff is pretty self evident. Not every african American who, "acts black" is poor and uneducated, but a big part of that culture developed from the ghetto, which has gone on to develop more and more to where society deems that as they way they are "supposed to act" in the same way that other races are "supposed to act".
Secondly, why even bring up the n word? Does that seriously need to be debated to extent? Take a word that was used specifically to degrade an entire race of people and be amazed that it offends them. Brilliant.
Uh, maybe because the racism and many of the viewpoints from the days of slavery are still alive and well today? To be honest, how many times has an african american come up to you and went on a tirade about slavery? I doubt it is often enough to make you feel that it is brought up every day. One can make the argument that it may be brought up through ideas of, "putting the black man down" to inadvertently bring it up, but frankly, the American society does put down every minority as that is the way our society is structured. Go usa...
Your school doesn't sound like a very mixed community and frankly, no, I don't think you have any idea what you are talking about, but you can learn. You seem to be eating out of what the media is feeding the masses, which is basically that minorities are all getting free rides from the white man and that minorities are all on the same playing field as the majority now. Unfortunately, even though our society has ended a lot of terrible laws and practices, it is pretty evident of the inferiority that still exists in the mind of a lot of the majorty.
Uh, most televsion is directed at the majority. Ergo, all TV is White Entertainment Television.
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I didn't intend to sound "rosy".
On the other hand, second-generation Asian Americans integrate pretty thoroughly these days. And "Chinatowns" are evaporating. I think this can probably be credited both to Asian-American culture pushing for integration into mainstream America rather than distinctiveness, and greater willingness from mainstream America to accept Asians* - but you'd know better than I. And whatever the cause, it doesn't exactly parallel the black or Hispanic experience. So while self-segregation isn't solely a black and white issue, I think it would be a mistake to be too loose about which cultures and social developments we're talking about.
*Interestingly, though, a friend of mine recently pointed out that while we've seen fictional black Presidents and other prominent authority figures in mainstream media for years, Asian characters in such roles are distinctly absent. Mainstream "acceptance" also seems to mean not taking Asians seriously, or at least taking them for granted: the stereotype is "normal person, usually a little nerdy". Not the worst stereotype you could end up with, but it's more insidious than something blatant and offensive. Besides, George Takei could play an awesome President.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
I think the problem there is that "ghetto culture" is the only culture they readily identify with, even though it is a stereotype, because "mainstream culture" caters to suburban whites, not inner-city blacks or Latinos/Latinas.
Not "slavery" so much as "Jim Crow," and that still goes on to some extent. (I heard Morgan Freeman did this thing about a high school in his hometown that still—as of 2009—has segregated proms.)
Well there you go. If you lived in a very segregated community, I would have believed you. Somewhat sarcastic, but the point is, if it's actually "mixed," this implies a progressive attitude towards race and culture.
Sooooo true. Idiotic subculture is not only present among "minority" populations.
Well... what would you use? "African"-Americans may not identify with that phrase any more than I would identify with "European"-American. I'm an American American!
Yes, people readily identify with the familiar rather than the different. This is sometimes good, but it's also a source of a lot of problems, including the propagation of stereotyping and animosity towards "the other."
I find it easier to walk across a beach of fine-grained (but multicolored) sand than rough boulders.
Not to mention that Caucasian is a rather inaccurate term, since not all people of European descent came from the Caucasus mountains... the question is, do we all have to take anthropology classes in order to properly identify people by ethnicity?
Wow, nice.
Kanye's problem is not his race or skin color but rather his insane egotism. That crosses all racial barriers.
Yeah... people don't get together and say "Hey, I'm white, you're black, let's hang out in a racially diverse way."
Mainstream "acceptance" also seems to mean not taking Asians seriously, or at least taking them for granted: the stereotype is "normal person, usually a little nerdy". Not the worst stereotype you could end up with, but it's more insidious than something blatant and offensive.
Yeah, not "Siamese cats in Lady and the Tramp" stereotypical... but I think the "a little nerdy" stereotype is more a diffraction of the prevalence of Asian-American contestants in depictions of spelling bees or other competitive academic activity. I dunno if this is statistically accurate, but it seems that Asian-American parents are extremely hardcore about success in those areas.
Besides, George Takei could play an awesome President.
I totally agree. Incidentally, you hit two minorities in one: Asian and gay. Epic win!
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the white lineage dating back to the first american colonists gave the american white man a significant advantage over the blacks. think about it. when your dad dies, you get all his stuff, so to speak. so over the years the white race had naturally gained power and wealth, and even poorer families had processions. and then you drop black people into the freedom cup. they have no property, no real families because of the slave trade and whatnot, and no real skills other than the manual labor they used to do. so it set the black mind into a free-slave mentality, they're only option was to do the same manual labor on plantations they used to do, but for a little bit of money now. racism was very present in the south, where a majority of blacks lived, and remember there was no "minimum wage" back then. you do what youre best at, for whatever you can get paid to do it.
think about it in modern day application. today black people are thought of first and foremost as what... athletes and entertainers. when a you think of a scientist, not many people think of a black guy in a lab coat. its this kind of subliminal imprinting that puts the blacks in america at a disadvantage. but on the other hand, if you think of a wide receiver snatching a touchdown pass out of the air, or a basketball player slamming a ball through the hoop, your first thought is most likely blacks. its not to say that black people can't now achieve higher things, with the racial bonuses and 1Up's we give them so to speak. for instance, the aforementioned quotas of black students being admitted into colleges. and its also not to say that there arent smart black people, cause there are. but the late start in the american dream that was passed off to free blacks after the 13th amendment was no gift from god without a plan to effectively HELP the blacks reach success.
so in my own humble opinion the american black arent self-segregating,l but naturally disadvantaged by the american mental stereotype that puts them lower on the hypothetical totem pole
im white, so dont think im saying this all because i feel im an unprivileged, "nword" or something. but thats my opinion. thoughts?
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This isn't widely talked about but there were far more Blacks who were in skilled professions and trades than you'd think. In the South there wasn't much of a need for skilled workers except in the major cities but in the North Blacks filled a wide variety of roles. Clerks, shipwrights, cobblers, stonemasons, and any other profession you could associate with Whites. Except their work was attributed to their master and they weren't allowed into trade organizations.
Alot of Blacks in the South ended up sharecropping because they didn't want to leave their homes. They'd toiled on the land for decades or even centuries and even though it was in bondage the land became home to them. The North was the promise land before Emancipation but now anywhere could potentially be a good place for them to live. Many Blacks are emotionally invested in the South to this day, even if they've never lived there.
that is true, they could all fill roles in the "white" community, but they were not accepted as part of it, because of widely rampant racism.
that is true at this point in history. with the election of obama, whether unconscious or consiously, the american black's moral overall has been improving; there are more and more prominent successful blacks as role models for them to look up to. you have swayed my mind a bit. but this is a time of change indeed. haha.
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