I've found myself very interested in this topic recently. It seems in order know the answer; you'd have to know the shape of the Universe. From all I have gathered, to the best of my understanding, there seem to be 3x main idea's about the shape of the universe:
3-dimensional flat Euclidean geometry, generally notated as E3.
3-dimensional spherical geometry with a small curvature, often notated as S3.
3-dimensional hyperbolic geometry with a small curvature.
:uhh::confused2:
I am not any type of physicist. I never even went to college for a full semester. So I am no "smarty-pants". I've been trying to research this, but everything I read has me breaking open a dictionary every other sentence. I don't understand these 3x concepts very well. But I have developed an opinion about the sphere.
My opinion about why it cannot be a sphere:
I think here they are comparing the universe to a sphere, like earth. They are saying that in space, as on earth, if you travel in one direction long enough you will eventually return to your starting point. This would make space easy to comprehended, but I just don’t think it is correct. As on earth: for this to be possible there has to be a core, a surface, something which to travel around. But space isn’t that way. It is empty. On earth, if I wanted to travel to Italy from the US. I’d have to go around the globe. In space, I could travel in a straight line there. The thought that space is a big empty globe just doesn’t sit right with me. It would also mean that there is an end to the universe.
I don’t really understand the other 2 concepts, so I really don’t have an opinion on them. I am still researching those.
I am also trying to grasp the metric expansion of space. From what I’ve gathered they are saying that space is always growing at or beyond the speed of light. A good example of this would be if you turn on a light bulb outside. The light from the bulb will travel and continue traveling until something blocks/contains it. So even though Earth is billions of years old, somewhere space is still traveling and becoming? That’s insane!
So far, I am leaning toward space being infinite, despite how impossible it is to comprehend.
The universe ends, at least ours is projected to both spatially and temporally. Space may not. The idea behind this is the concept of multi-dimensional planes of existence where there exists inter-dimensional space and dimensional space. Contractions and expansions of these two concepts may exist but it seems infinitive and never ending.
At the very least that is an interesting theory that I trend toward. I've not a clue about the "truth" or "definitive" nature of it. Perhaps that's more of a field for a philosophical astrophysicist than a physical cosmologist?
Cheers,
Daggertooth
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
***Official Rune Master and Rational Extremest of The Called***
************************From Sound to Sea**********************
And I guess that I'm a lucky one for the truth of what I know. For my heart had not denied me and I have somewhere to go. I shall never be a prisoner of steel and glass and stone. If I leave, I will return again to my Rocky Mountain home.
The question is interesting, but at one point it will no longer be possible to answer this question because the universe will have expanded so much that we won't be able to measure anything.
Help has come in the form of a bit of basic algebra. I feel that it'll shed some light on your problem here.
Basically:
S + T = W
...S in this case stands for 'spam' and the T stands for 'light trolling'. And the W? That stands for 'Warning'. I love math. -- {mikeyG}
The universe ends, at least ours is projected to both spatially and temporally. Space may not. The idea behind this is the concept of multi-dimensional planes of existence where there exists inter-dimensional space and dimensional space. Contractions and expansions of these two concepts may exist but it seems infinitive and never ending.
Or you could also say the "void" of space is infinite but the universe is finite because if the big bang event did happen then the size of the universe is determined by how far light (and therefore matter, energy, time, etc.) has travelled in that time period. In other words, the universe may be capable of infinite expansion but it is finite by definition.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Golden Rule of forums: If you're going to be rude, be right. If you might be wrong, be polite.
The question is interesting, but at one point it will no longer be possible to answer this question because the universe will have expanded so much that we won't be able to measure anything.
this and the response before me; I believe the term is an open univers, as opposed to a closed universe.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Even if the author is silenced, the performance is stopped, the story will not end.
Whether it's a comedy or a tragedy, if there is cheering, the story will continue on.
Just like the many lives.
For the us who are still in it and still in the journey, send warm blessings.
- We will continue to walk down this path until eternity.
That's allegedly the best picture we have. Its the famous Hubble Ultra Deep Field image.
It took 400 orbits and 800 exposures to take. And there are roughly 10,000 galaxies in that image. And its only 1/13th of the entire night sky!
That's allegedly the best picture we have. Its the famous Hubble Ultra Deep Field image.
It took 400 orbits and 800 exposures to take. And there are roughly 10,000 galaxies in that image. And its only 1/13th of the entire night sky!
That image is only 1/13 millionth of the night sky.
According to some math I have no interest in going into, the size of the “actual” universe is so large that if the universe we currently can view(the impossibly, mind-bogglingly large one) were the size of a quarter, the actual universe would be the size of the Earth. :o:o:o:o:o
According to some math I have no interest in going into, the size of the “actual” universe is so large that if the universe we currently can view(the impossibly, mind-bogglingly large one) were the size of a quarter, the actual universe would be the size of the Earth. :o:o:o:o:o
I'd beinterested in that math, as I severely doubt this claim. Where is the information coming from? I'll look into it myself if you point me to your source.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
[The Crafters] | [Johnnies United]
My anecdotal evidence disagrees with yours! EXPLAIN THAT!
From what I understand space is expending at the speed of light. If something is expanding it has to have a measurable distance to start from, for it to be considered expanding. I don’t think something that is infinitely large could also be expanding, seems like the two ideas contradict each other. But we also can’t figure out how large it is unless we can travel to the end of space which would require us to travel past the speed of light.
I never really though of space as a sphere, instead I pictured it as a flat plane. But it’s an interesting idea, but leaves me with one question, aren’t most spheres formed by some gravitational force? That assumption would make me think there is some insane gravitational force at the "core" of a spherical space. Maybe dark matter?
Many scientists believe in expansion because galaxies are moving farther apart from each other. (Analogy: A stretching rubber-band.) They also believe the universe will freeze because of expansion. The less crowded everything is, the cooler it becomes. Some believe that eventually you won't even be able to see stars in the night sky because they will all have moved so far away.
old school overlord - Meh, as I said in my OP. I am no smartypants. I don't understand all that deminsional talky. But to be a sphere would contradict the expansion theory. I just can't sign onto it.
.
.
If something is expanding it has to have a measurable distance to start from, for it to be considered expanding. I don’t think something that is infinitely large could also be expanding, seems like the two ideas contradict each other.
Take the Euclidian plane (Reals x Reals). Let's say that from the Big Bang (0,0) at this point Earth has expanded to (1,1) and we can see some other galaxy at (-1,-1). Then apply a transform on the entire universe, multiplying every coordinate by two. Earth is now at (2,2), the other galaxy at (-2,-2). The transform of the Reals set is still the Reals set, so from the outside looking it it's still as big as it was before (one type of infinity). However, from inside the universe, everything is now farther apart.
Take the Euclidian plane (Reals x Reals). Let's say that from the Big Bang (0,0) at this point Earth has expanded to (1,1) and we can see some other galaxy at (-1,-1). Then apply a transform on the entire universe, multiplying every coordinate by two. Earth is now at (2,2), the other galaxy at (-2,-2). The transform of the Reals set is still the Reals set, so from the outside looking it it's still as big as it was before (one type of infinity). However, from inside the universe, everything is now farther apart.
This is what we call the universe's expansion.
So space has always been the same size, but we (plants, galaxies, whatever) are moving through it like fish traveling through the ocean? Even at the time of the big bang, space was infinitly large and we are slowing expanding into it?
A lot of people are talking about how if the universe is a sphere, it needs to have a core. I don't really know the physics, but I know the math. By sphere, we are really talking about something like a space topologically equivalent to the surface of a 4-d ball. This is a 3-dimensionsional surface, but it is NOT neccessarily in a 4-dimensional space (really, it might be equivalent to a 4+ dimensional surface of a 5+ dimensional ball, but we'll say 3D). You can mathematically describe the space without ever mentioning anything about a center. There are no dimensions - the only way to tell is properties such as going very far in one direction and arriving at the point you started, or creating a large triangle and measuring its interior angles. You can't do anything like trying to move into the 4th dimension and look at it - the 4th dimension doesn't exist.
So space has always been the same size, but we (plants, galaxies, whatever) are moving through it like fish traveling through the ocean? Even at the time of the big bang, space was infinitly large and we are slowing expanding into it?
Quite the opposite. Space is expanding, and carrying us along for the ride. This is most vividly illustrated by the cosmic background radiation, which with its remarkable uniformity tells us that the Big Bang happened not at a particular point in space, but rather everywhere.
DarkAngel's point was that both the expanded and unexpanded Euclidean planes are infinite; i.e., something infinite can expand.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Vive, vale. Siquid novisti rectius istis,
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
Quite the opposite. Space is expanding, and carrying us along for the ride. This is most vividly illustrated by the cosmic background radiation, which with its remarkable uniformity tells us that the Big Bang happened not at a particular point in space, but rather everywhere.
DarkAngel's point was that both the expanded and unexpanded Euclidean planes are infinite; i.e., something infinite can expand.
For some reason that doesnt make sense to me. To me, thats like saying something is infinitly long, plus 2 miles.
I believe that space is infinite that there is no limits to space by size or direction.
Is there even such a thing as empty space
That is hard to say as space is filled with dust particles and other radation. If you are talking any form such as matter and energy then no there isn't i would say. solar winds are constantly blowing particles and other forms all over the place.
if you are strictly talking matter then yes there is. i am not one that believes in dark matter or energy so for me that is my conclusion.
For the black spaces which do not appear to us to be occupied by light & radiation, isn't there still light & radiation there, just traveling a path skew to us?
That is a black hole. it isn't that light or radiation doesn't exist it does exist. the black hole is just so dense that light cannot escape it gravitational pull.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks to Epic Graphics the best around. Thanks to Nex3 for the avatar visit ye old sig and avatar forum
Love this topic
My astromamy teacher said that one theory is that the universe is constantly expanding. The universe also has a point where it satrts again. So if you traveled around the universe in a single direction and you were traveling faster than the universe is expanding you would eventually come bak to where you started. How ever if you did it again the universe would be bigger. THe theory of the universe being a shape is absurd said astronamy teacher. He told me i needed to change my thinking.
old school overlord - Meh, as I said in my OP. I am no smartypants. I don't understand all that deminsional talky. But to be a sphere would contradict the expansion theory. I just can't sign onto it.
I'm not trying to give you a hard time here, but given that you admit you don't understand these theories, isn't it a little odd to discount one of them outright? Secondly, the part I added emphasis to is wrong, the model for the expanding sphere theory works something like how a cluster of dots on the surface of a balloon would perceive their universe to be expanding in all directions as the balloon was inflated.
Also, I'd just like to point out that it seems odd to me for this topic to be in Debate, since I doubt there many (if any) people on this board qualified to actually debate on this topic.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
These boards need Lucida Blackletter as a font option.
Quote from Soul_Grind »
I just meant that to assume using an arm lock on someone is an example of a peaceful solution is ludicrous.
Quote from PlatedOrnithopter »
To put it simply, women have to seek empowerment, whereas men have to live up to empowerment.
Love this topic
My astromamy teacher said that one theory is that the universe is constantly expanding. The universe also has a point where it satrts again. So if you traveled around the universe in a single direction and you were traveling faster than the universe is expanding you would eventually come bak to where you started. How ever if you did it again the universe would be bigger. THe theory of the universe being a shape is absurd said astronamy teacher. He told me i needed to change my thinking.
Well it has been proven that the universe is "growing" faster than the speed of light...the awkward part is that its picking up speed as it goes....
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I will play what wins, not what is convenient. Personal preference is nothing, The win is all that matters. I will netdeck at every opportunity, but I will not let that stifle my creativity. Style points do not appear on tournament reports. A good deck with an incompetent pilot is nothing more than a dressed up match win. I will crush my opponent mercilessly, and expect no less from him. Victory is its own reward, The prize is just a bonus.
Legacy is dying
Which you need to do if you want to understand the meaning of the word "space".
At the precise moment of the Big Bang, there was no space. Today, space is limited in terms of "how big is it?" (still expanding at the speed of light, though, so you can't actually measure its size). But, it has no boundaries, since there can't be anything outside it. Anything we can logically describe, that is. You have to talk metaphysics for this, but that's not the intention of this thread I think.
Hmm.. I think that people are getting confused between the definitions of space and universe. The Big Bang occured in space creating a universe, therefore I am inclined to say that space is infinite and has always been, while the universe is finite and expanding. Infinity has become my favourite word lately, as it answers so many unknowns.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I've found myself very interested in this topic recently. It seems in order know the answer; you'd have to know the shape of the Universe. From all I have gathered, to the best of my understanding, there seem to be 3x main idea's about the shape of the universe:
I am not any type of physicist. I never even went to college for a full semester. So I am no "smarty-pants". I've been trying to research this, but everything I read has me breaking open a dictionary every other sentence. I don't understand these 3x concepts very well. But I have developed an opinion about the sphere.
My opinion about why it cannot be a sphere:
I am also trying to grasp the metric expansion of space. From what I’ve gathered they are saying that space is always growing at or beyond the speed of light. A good example of this would be if you turn on a light bulb outside. The light from the bulb will travel and continue traveling until something blocks/contains it. So even though Earth is billions of years old, somewhere space is still traveling and becoming? That’s insane!
So far, I am leaning toward space being infinite, despite how impossible it is to comprehend.
My main source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_cosmology
.
.
.
Homebrew is creating Magic.
Are you a pilot or a creator??
At the very least that is an interesting theory that I trend toward. I've not a clue about the "truth" or "definitive" nature of it. Perhaps that's more of a field for a philosophical astrophysicist than a physical cosmologist?
Cheers,
Daggertooth
For my heart had not denied me and I have somewhere to go.
I shall never be a prisoner of steel and glass and stone.
If I leave, I will return again to my Rocky Mountain home.
Moderator Helpdesk
Netdecking is Rightdecking
My latest data-driven Magic the Gathering strategy article
(TLDR: Analysis of the Valakut matchups. UB rising in the rankings. Aggro correspondingly taking a dive.)
Help has come in the form of a bit of basic algebra. I feel that it'll shed some light on your problem here.
Basically:
S + T = W
...S in this case stands for 'spam' and the T stands for 'light trolling'. And the W? That stands for 'Warning'. I love math. -- {mikeyG}
Or you could also say the "void" of space is infinite but the universe is finite because if the big bang event did happen then the size of the universe is determined by how far light (and therefore matter, energy, time, etc.) has travelled in that time period. In other words, the universe may be capable of infinite expansion but it is finite by definition.
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.
this and the response before me; I believe the term is an open univers, as opposed to a closed universe.
Whether it's a comedy or a tragedy, if there is cheering, the story will continue on.
Just like the many lives.
For the us who are still in it and still in the journey, send warm blessings.
- We will continue to walk down this path until eternity.
http://zebu.uoregon.edu/hudf/hudf_150dpi.jpg
That's allegedly the best picture we have. Its the famous Hubble Ultra Deep Field image.
It took 400 orbits and 800 exposures to take. And there are roughly 10,000 galaxies in that image. And its only 1/13th of the entire night sky!
Best Celeb Gossip Ever: http://www.twitter-tracker.com/
Currently building: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=170776
Now a great discussion thread!
Amazing new card: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=184683
That image is only 1/13 millionth of the night sky.
According to some math I have no interest in going into, the size of the “actual” universe is so large that if the universe we currently can view(the impossibly, mind-bogglingly large one) were the size of a quarter, the actual universe would be the size of the Earth. :o:o:o:o:o
Best Celeb Gossip Ever: http://www.twitter-tracker.com/
Currently building: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=170776
Now a great discussion thread!
Amazing new card: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=184683
I never really though of space as a sphere, instead I pictured it as a flat plane. But it’s an interesting idea, but leaves me with one question, aren’t most spheres formed by some gravitational force? That assumption would make me think there is some insane gravitational force at the "core" of a spherical space. Maybe dark matter?
BUWGRChilds PlayGRWUB
BUWGR Highlander GRWUB
UBSquee's Shapeshifting PetBU
BW Multiplayer Control WB
RG Changeling GR
UR Mana FlareRU
UMerfolkU
B MBMC B
old school overlord - Meh, as I said in my OP. I am no smartypants. I don't understand all that deminsional talky. But to be a sphere would contradict the expansion theory. I just can't sign onto it.
.
.
Homebrew is creating Magic.
Are you a pilot or a creator??
Take the Euclidian plane (Reals x Reals). Let's say that from the Big Bang (0,0) at this point Earth has expanded to (1,1) and we can see some other galaxy at (-1,-1). Then apply a transform on the entire universe, multiplying every coordinate by two. Earth is now at (2,2), the other galaxy at (-2,-2). The transform of the Reals set is still the Reals set, so from the outside looking it it's still as big as it was before (one type of infinity). However, from inside the universe, everything is now farther apart.
This is what we call the universe's expansion.
Netdecking is Rightdecking
My latest data-driven Magic the Gathering strategy article
(TLDR: Analysis of the Valakut matchups. UB rising in the rankings. Aggro correspondingly taking a dive.)
So space has always been the same size, but we (plants, galaxies, whatever) are moving through it like fish traveling through the ocean? Even at the time of the big bang, space was infinitly large and we are slowing expanding into it?
BUWGRChilds PlayGRWUB
BUWGR Highlander GRWUB
UBSquee's Shapeshifting PetBU
BW Multiplayer Control WB
RG Changeling GR
UR Mana FlareRU
UMerfolkU
B MBMC B
Quite the opposite. Space is expanding, and carrying us along for the ride. This is most vividly illustrated by the cosmic background radiation, which with its remarkable uniformity tells us that the Big Bang happened not at a particular point in space, but rather everywhere.
DarkAngel's point was that both the expanded and unexpanded Euclidean planes are infinite; i.e., something infinite can expand.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
For some reason that doesnt make sense to me. To me, thats like saying something is infinitly long, plus 2 miles.
BUWGRChilds PlayGRWUB
BUWGR Highlander GRWUB
UBSquee's Shapeshifting PetBU
BW Multiplayer Control WB
RG Changeling GR
UR Mana FlareRU
UMerfolkU
B MBMC B
Think of it this way. Space is infinite; patches of space aren't. Each patch of space is getting bigger. Envision an infinite chessboard expanding.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
It doesn't have to make sense. Sense is what humans superimpose on what simply IS.
Netdecking is Rightdecking
My latest data-driven Magic the Gathering strategy article
(TLDR: Analysis of the Valakut matchups. UB rising in the rankings. Aggro correspondingly taking a dive.)
No. The universe being flat only means that it is globally Minkowski (on average so to speak). Gravity still makes it non-Minkowski locally.
That is hard to say as space is filled with dust particles and other radation. If you are talking any form such as matter and energy then no there isn't i would say. solar winds are constantly blowing particles and other forms all over the place.
if you are strictly talking matter then yes there is. i am not one that believes in dark matter or energy so for me that is my conclusion.
That is a black hole. it isn't that light or radiation doesn't exist it does exist. the black hole is just so dense that light cannot escape it gravitational pull.
Thanks to Epic Graphics the best around.
Thanks to Nex3 for the avatar visit ye old sig and avatar forum
My astromamy teacher said that one theory is that the universe is constantly expanding. The universe also has a point where it satrts again. So if you traveled around the universe in a single direction and you were traveling faster than the universe is expanding you would eventually come bak to where you started. How ever if you did it again the universe would be bigger. THe theory of the universe being a shape is absurd said astronamy teacher. He told me i needed to change my thinking.
Thanks To KrackShott
Old extendo moved
I'm not trying to give you a hard time here, but given that you admit you don't understand these theories, isn't it a little odd to discount one of them outright? Secondly, the part I added emphasis to is wrong, the model for the expanding sphere theory works something like how a cluster of dots on the surface of a balloon would perceive their universe to be expanding in all directions as the balloon was inflated.
Also, I'd just like to point out that it seems odd to me for this topic to be in Debate, since I doubt there many (if any) people on this board qualified to actually debate on this topic.
These boards need Lucida Blackletter as a font option.
Well it has been proven that the universe is "growing" faster than the speed of light...the awkward part is that its picking up speed as it goes....
Personal preference is nothing, The win is all that matters.
I will netdeck at every opportunity, but I will not let that stifle my creativity.
Style points do not appear on tournament reports.
A good deck with an incompetent pilot is nothing more than a dressed up match win.
I will crush my opponent mercilessly, and expect no less from him.
Victory is its own reward, The prize is just a bonus.
Legacy is dying
Hmm.. I think that people are getting confused between the definitions of space and universe. The Big Bang occured in space creating a universe, therefore I am inclined to say that space is infinite and has always been, while the universe is finite and expanding. Infinity has become my favourite word lately, as it answers so many unknowns.