And I'm worried that so many people think israel is the good guy, and so they are allowed to do everything they want. While everything the others do is always bad and evil and terrorism.
hamas targets civilians: it's terrorism, they have no morals, they are animals.
Israel targets civilians: it' their own fault, it's collateral damage, they should nuke that area...
where is the context?
The problem I tend to have is actually the opposite. Hamas fires rockets at israeli civilians, people shrug, Isreal responds, or over reacts as I agree they often do, and it's OMG, the Israelis are killing civilians.
part of the problem is that Isreal is surrounded by enemies and can't risk looking weak, so tit for tat is never enough. It has to be massive, crushing force to defeat the enemy and send a clear warning to all the other enmies. There's not really a way to use massive, crushing force without inflicting a lot of civilian casualties. I think the Israelis need to start focusing on winning at least some of the Palestinians over instead of just focusing on victory and cease fires. Basically, they need to win hearts and minds and not just waist mother****ers.
The problem I tend to have is actually the opposite. Hamas fires rockets at israeli civilians, people shrug, Isreal responds, or over reacts as I agree they often do, and it's OMG, the Israelis are killing civilians.
part of the problem is that Isreal is surrounded by enemies and can't risk looking weak, so tit for tat is never enough. It has to be massive, crushing force to defeat the enemy and send a clear warning to all the other enmies. There's not really a way to use massive, crushing force without inflicting a lot of civilian casualties. I think the Israelis need to start focusing on winning at least some of the Palestinians over instead of just focusing on victory and cease fires. Basically, they need to win hearts and minds and not just waist mother****ers.
I think the policymakers in Israel are faced with a double-edged sword. If they go all-out and crush Hamas, they risk killing a lot of civilians and therefore losing a lot of support both in Gaza and abroad. If they win hearts and minds, that probably involves lifting a bunch of sanctions and blockades, which will definitely improve the lives of the Gazans but also enable Hamas to strengthen its forces... and there's no guarantee that the Gazans won't just stick with Hamas. And they can't just bait the Gazans with humanitarian aid if they dump Hamas because that's just more fuel for the anti-Semitic fire...
...really the whole Middle East should've actually experienced the Biblical flood, and never resufaced. But that's just my $0.02.
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Eskimo Rage makes some very good points here. I think a big part of the problem is that the conflict and diplomacy between Isreal and the Arabs, including the Palestinians, has amounted to a proxy war between America and Islamic extremists. Both sides in the conflict are manipulated by outside forces using Isreal/Palestine as the battleground for a much larger and more complicated conflict.
I don't know how many of you know how messed up israel is. For obvious reasons its one of the most racists places on earth. The native Arab Jews are subject to constant racism for there believed sympathies but ironically covetted by the israeli army for there accuracy with a gun. I hear non-european jews are treated as second class citizens and those that are the israeli elite that holds power are a small cabal of highly influentual european jews, despite being waaaay outnumbered by non-european jews. Also at least two Iranian Jews i know of hold influentual positions in government and the army and they are well known/respected by the iranian government. Can anyone shed some light on this or am i way off?
Prejudice between groups of Jews is as real as prejudice between groups of Christians. If you want to have an idea of what Isreal has to deal with culturally then imagine moving a large group of Christians of every sect (I mean every sect, all the varieties of Catholic, Greek Orthodox, Lutheran, Calvinist, Mormon, and so on) into an area the size of the American Midwest, keeping in mind that they will all come in speaking different languages and bearing the distinct cultural stamps of the places they are from. That's what the Israelis have to deal with among each other. This is not even taking into account their issues with the Palestinians and other Muslims.
Sorry about my Iran flub. My knowledge of the specific ethnic make up of most of the Middle East is lacking.
Eskimo Rage makes some very good points here. I think a big part of the problem is that the conflict and diplomacy between Isreal and the Arabs, including the Palestinians, has amounted to a proxy war between America and Islamic extremists. Both sides in the conflict are manipulated by outside forces using Isreal/Palestine as the battleground for a much larger and more complicated conflict.
So now electing the "wrong" persons for government is passible of the Death penalty?
No, being STUPID is punishable by death.
Israel has always had the upper hand in terms of sheer firepower against the Palestinians. This latest invasion only showed how very true that is, what with the 1:100 Israeli:Palestinian death ratio.
The Palestinians are throwing rocks at a guy in a tank. The only defense they have is the restraint of the guy in the tank. It's time they realized just how terribly outgunned they are and that maybe they should stop pissing him off.
It's been 20 years since Tianenmen Square, and is China any more responsive to human rights? To political freedom?
To be a little more on-target though, you don't see Taiwan sending rockets across the strait into China, do you? Because they know that China could wipe them off the face of the earth if they tick them off too much.
Your absolutely right they should be holding out there hands to the Israeli soldiers to be cuffed and led away in lines to some ghetto (practically already there) where they will be living at the whim of a people that they have had a 50 year old blood feud with.
Are you telling me you wouldn't resist in the same situation? I'm not even talking about right and wrong just basic human psychology. You want your children's autonomy and freedom to be dictated by your arch enemies?
I'd love to know what would happened if the palestinians did that, guaranteed they will be driven off the lands they currently have by being pressed and hampered by israili officials in a million different ways.
Pardon me if I'm mistaken, but I didn't see the Israelis invading the West Bank. Somewhat coincidentally, I didn't see any rocket attacks coming out of the West Bank towards Israel in the days prior to the Gaza invasion.
I'm not saying that the Palestinians should abandon their dreams of nationhood, or that they should not take steps to obtain it. I'm saying that maybe the Palestinians should wise up and try doing something productive, like recognizing Israel's right to exist and stepping up to the negotiation table, rather than firing rockets at Israel's cities.
A lot of the media these days, both American and worldwide, is skewed due to Palestinian media. If you read most articles, they are from Palestinian journalists who often misrepresent the information. In fact, large portions of combat footage is staged by Palestinian camera crews. Try
for some evidence. In particular, watch the first movie on that second website. Truly eye-opening.
I just came back from Israel, so it may seem like my views are biased, but hearing horror stories firsthand from Israeli soldiers about suicide bombings and various things related and unrelated to the Gaza strip really has given me a whole new perspective.
http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/the_way_we_live/article5504478.ece
Here's an article about a guy who either a genius or totally barking mad and his theory that leads me to the conclusion that he's either a genius or totally barking mad. Basically, there's been some DNA research done that indicates that Palestinians are more closely related to Jews than they are to the surrounding Arab communities (which is impressive, given that most of the people in Isreal who consider themselves Jews are descended from people who spent the better part of 2000 years marrying non-Jews). It's far fetched, but David Ben Gurion quote in the article pretty well sums up the whole situation.
Given on how the Isrealli population systematically elects Warmongers into office, there is little hope that serious peace talks would take place in the near-future. Hamas and its rockets are just a convenient excuse for avoiding this and continuing their settlement policies.
Maybe the Israelis keep electing so-called "Warmongers" is because the last time they didn't, when Ehud Barak was PM back in 2000, the Palestinians launched the second intifadah.
You mean the 28th September 2000, after provocations from warmonger Ariel Sharon (then leader of the opposition) which, together with a Likud party delegation surrounded by hundreds of Israeli riot police, visited the Temple Mount compound in Jerusalem (widely considered the third holiest site in Islam)?
So they paid a peaceful visit to a particular location in their own country and apparently warned local authority so that they could prevent a riot and this is somehow a provocation for the second intifada? And is someone giving you a dollar for every time you write "warmonger"? Seems to be your new favorite word;)
You mean the 28th September 2000, after provocations from warmonger Ariel Sharon (then leader of the opposition) which, together with a Likud party delegation surrounded by hundreds of Israeli riot police, visited the Temple Mount compound in Jerusalem (widely considered the third holiest site in Islam)?
And the Temple Mount is totally uninteresting to the Jewish faith, amirite? There's a reason it's called the Temple Mount, because of the Temple of Solomon and the Temple of Harod. In fact, it's the first holiest site in Judaism, which might give some sort of precedence assuming all Abrahamic faiths are equal.
Personally, I think that the holy sites in Jerusalem should operate on a time-share basis, but that's another debate entirely.
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Personally, I think that the holy sites in Jerusalem should operate on a time-share basis, but that's another debate entirely.
Unfortunately, it's one that is intricately tied to this one, just like everything else from any faith east of the Celtic tradition and west of Hindu:rolleyes:
You mean the 28th September 2000, after provocations from warmonger Ariel Sharon (then leader of the opposition) which, together with a Likud party delegation surrounded by hundreds of Israeli riot police, visited the Temple Mount compound in Jerusalem (widely considered the third holiest site in Islam)?
I seem to remember that on Sept. 27, a bomb attack killed an Israeli soldier, before Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount. Do also recall that the Palestinians walked out of the Camp David peace negotiations in July, before Sharon even took office. Finally, perhaps you should remember that previous to that, the Israelis had just ended their occupation of southern Lebanon, one of the largest Israeli concessions to the Arab world. You'd think the Palestinians would dial down the violence after that, but no, they launched the intifadah.
Defensive measures against the world's 4th most effective military and nuclear power by a bunch of olive growers with a couple of pounds of C4 and some AKs, couldn't be focused, could it?
It could have been a lot better than it was. The suicide bombings and rocket attacks of civilian targets were totally inexcusable.
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To put it another way, if you were in their shoes, surely the chances of you supporting the actions of SBs and random rockets increases massively?
Why would I want to kill random Israelis? I don't believe people deserve to die because of their religion or nationality (which is more than can be said for some Palestinians).
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I'm sorry, but I cannot give you an answer that does not risk yetanother infraction from you.
False accusations of holocaust denial? No problem for you. Stating the Catholic Church abuses children, a historical (and contempory) fact? Trolling infraction.
I can't answer your questions on rules like that.
I suppose that is one way to cop-out of answering.
One does need to make excuses for an action that is entirely understandable.
It may be understandable... but there is still no excuse for it. The suicide bombings and random rocket fires are not and were not rational.
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To put it another way, if you were in their shoes, surely the chances of you supporting the actions of SBs and random rockets increases massively?
So you are saying that if you were being oppressed by ANY force, that killing innocents unrelated to that oppression is completely understandable?
Because the most reasonable thing I think of when some guy pushes me is to punch their children. :\
But bombarding schools and Mosques is?
First of all... Not intentional. Just like the US is not intentionally harming civilians in Iraq (outside of some uneducated soldiers I'm sure). I agree that Israel's strikes have been anything but conservative, but this is after a long period of being patient (given the situation both sides are in). This is the equivelant to ripping a bandaid off... I'm assuming it's meant to end the problem instead of just trying to prevent it as they go along, and although I'm not sure which is the correct route here (I'm not the one who makes the decisions), it's better than letting the situation become more stagnant, and Israel is viewing as not letting another year of terrorist attacks on it's civilians. In the end, Israel is much more capable of avoiding innocent lives being lost, compared to the other side, which was actively attacking them..?
Whe shouldn't approve any of killings done by them.
'
Nobody here is "approving" of any killings. (at least I'm not :() Nobody is blameless, but when you compare each country's idea of "fighting", I'm afraid Israel's brutal military strategies still sound much more humane. :\
I believe you don't approve, but read the thread. If I would reread this thread, I get sick I think. Too many people think it's ok to wipe out Gaza, some think they should use a nuke (those people of course have a bad knowledge of the geographic locations of these areas).
Anyone suggesting war is anything but terrible is ignorant, naive, or stupid. The same goes for any mention of nuclear weapons, genocides, saying it's ok to wipe out anyone.... etc.
I would suggest that you just ignore anyone actually suggesting the use of nuclear arms (and similar).
And I would rather say: "less unhumane". But what does it mean if Israel is less unhumane then Hamas?
Do I need to answer that? I'm saying, they are taking the higher road. It's not THAT high, but it's higher, and that means something, especially to the world watching.
That's the problem, people always want to see a good and a bad side in a war. And then the conclussion is the good side has to win.
Because the opposite would be....?
About what viberunner said: Try to get the context of the people fighting for Hamas. It's an unfair fight. Tell me how they should fight it?
If Hamas were the 'good' guys, then people would say it's ok.
You can't act like a bad guy, and label yourself otherwise. Up till now, Hamas has shown itself to be the bad guy by it's actions. Most of the time, it's people are suffering because of the actions of it's leaders. Hell, they actively use their civilians as a weapon. Israel isn't exactly a "good guy", but they are certainly much better at acting like the "Better guy" in this situation. Saying otherwise is ignoring what's going on.
It was OK to support terrorists to fight Russia for example. If the US supported Hamas instead of Israel, people would think Hamas were the poor guys fighting the big oppressing nation Israel. (but then of course, Israel wouldn't be the big nation with all those weapons of course ).
I don't even want to know about all the politics that went into this relationship. I'm sure money and power were connected somehow, but you'd be naive to think it was actual hatred towards anyone. I'm sure some very smart people saw it as an "investment", and hopefully it was one that involved peace and harmony in the long run.
So what I think Viberunner wanted to say is that the people should have some nuance, see the context! Instead of black-white, bad-good thinking.
I'm pretty sure that most people understand that Israel is not perfect, or the "good guy". However, viewing a conflict from our standpoint, there are a few things we want:
For it to be over.
For less people to get hurt.
For both sides to stop fighting.
For compromise.
The list goes on. As of now, a FEW options off the list MIGHT happen. It could be over, eventually. In the long run, that's less people hurt. And in the end, you DO have to acknowledge that one side is more capable of doing it, and that is Israel, hate them or not. At this point, saying that Hamas is correct is bordering on playing devil's advocate imho. You can't approach a war the way they did, and expect the other side to play by the rules. Regardless of how you want to say it, "Less inhumane" is still more humane. I'll go with the more human one thank you.
In my eyes, there is no good side. So who has to win then?
It all boils down to: the world has chosen who it will support in this conflict. Ending a conflict is better than neverending conflict. Israel is better equipped to fight this war, regardless of the way it's fought.
If there was injustice being done, you don't think any country would have stepped in by now? There are rallies around the world, and yet, it's not stopping Israel is it?
I know the facts, and I don't see how it changes what is happening, and what IS going to happen. I have a friend who is Jewish, and I constantly hear how terrible it is in Israel, and that poor, young country, just trying to survive against monsters... and I basically laugh in his face every time. I am fully aware that the lesser of two evils is still an evil, but what are my other options here?
Oh yeah, the one I (and millions of others) are employing now, which is "Stay the hell out of it".
I actually do think it will be better when I stop hearing about this on the news, and one side eventually absorbs the other. (since I'm pretty positive that they will never come to a compromise, even though that's probably the best option here) Anything other than that is just delaying the inevitable, and making the process more painful for everyone.
It is true that Israel has a greater ability to avoid causing civilian deaths but they are not at all excercising that ability. Never mind that they're starving the Gazans, they've been dropping bombs and white phosphorous on a densely populated area. They even sent bulldozers in to tear down the homes they didn't bomb into rubble. That's not restraint.
I don't mean to nitpick here, but considering what the Israeli military is capable of, that is restraint. Isreal could easily reduce Gaza, all of Gaza, every last building in Gaza to a smoking pile of rubble and they chose not to. You may feel that their restraint has been inadequate (and I would agree), but they have shown restraint. As for the U.N. schools, Isreal claims that Hamas gunmen fired on Israeli forces from those schools and those forces returned fire. Sadly, we'll probably never know the truth of it. I wouldn't put it past Hamas to use civilians for cover, but I also wouldn't put it past the IDF to indiscriminately fire in the general direction of an attack regardless of what might be there.
Actually, we do know the truth of it, because UN employees who were there deny that there were militants on the premises. Your attitude is exactly the reason to that the IDF will simply state whatever is convenient at the time because, since they don't allow foreign journalists in, it takes a little while to find out what went on and at that point all that is heard is how "the controversy rages on" and how "accounts differ". Of course accounts differ when one side is lying. As for this particular school, the IDF went on to announce that there were militants nearby, not in the school as they had previously claimed.
If you actually read my post you would know that nearby militants was one of the scenarios I stated.
And finally, no, that the IDF hasn't literally burned Gaza to the ground is not restraint. I don't go around raping children willy-nilly even though I am physically capable of it but that doesn't mean that I show restraint. The only context in which the IDF's current actions would constitute showing restraint would be if they actually wanted to drown the Palestinians in napalm.
part of the problem is that Isreal is surrounded by enemies and can't risk looking weak, so tit for tat is never enough. It has to be massive, crushing force to defeat the enemy and send a clear warning to all the other enmies. There's not really a way to use massive, crushing force without inflicting a lot of civilian casualties. I think the Israelis need to start focusing on winning at least some of the Palestinians over instead of just focusing on victory and cease fires. Basically, they need to win hearts and minds and not just waist mother****ers.
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I think the policymakers in Israel are faced with a double-edged sword. If they go all-out and crush Hamas, they risk killing a lot of civilians and therefore losing a lot of support both in Gaza and abroad. If they win hearts and minds, that probably involves lifting a bunch of sanctions and blockades, which will definitely improve the lives of the Gazans but also enable Hamas to strengthen its forces... and there's no guarantee that the Gazans won't just stick with Hamas. And they can't just bait the Gazans with humanitarian aid if they dump Hamas because that's just more fuel for the anti-Semitic fire...
...really the whole Middle East should've actually experienced the Biblical flood, and never resufaced. But that's just my $0.02.
Very Well Then I Contradict Myself.
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Sorry about my Iran flub. My knowledge of the specific ethnic make up of most of the Middle East is lacking.
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Wow. The Cold War has just shifted into a Moderately Hot War between Iran/militant Islam and America. Seriously, and we thought it ended in '89.
Sins of the fathers, and all that.
Very Well Then I Contradict Myself.
No, being STUPID is punishable by death.
Israel has always had the upper hand in terms of sheer firepower against the Palestinians. This latest invasion only showed how very true that is, what with the 1:100 Israeli:Palestinian death ratio.
The Palestinians are throwing rocks at a guy in a tank. The only defense they have is the restraint of the guy in the tank. It's time they realized just how terribly outgunned they are and that maybe they should stop pissing him off.
Yes, as a matter of fact. Exactly like that guy.
It's been 20 years since Tianenmen Square, and is China any more responsive to human rights? To political freedom?
To be a little more on-target though, you don't see Taiwan sending rockets across the strait into China, do you? Because they know that China could wipe them off the face of the earth if they tick them off too much.
Pardon me if I'm mistaken, but I didn't see the Israelis invading the West Bank. Somewhat coincidentally, I didn't see any rocket attacks coming out of the West Bank towards Israel in the days prior to the Gaza invasion.
I'm not saying that the Palestinians should abandon their dreams of nationhood, or that they should not take steps to obtain it. I'm saying that maybe the Palestinians should wise up and try doing something productive, like recognizing Israel's right to exist and stepping up to the negotiation table, rather than firing rockets at Israel's cities.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pallywood
and
http://www.seconddraft.org/movies.php
for some evidence. In particular, watch the first movie on that second website. Truly eye-opening.
I just came back from Israel, so it may seem like my views are biased, but hearing horror stories firsthand from Israeli soldiers about suicide bombings and various things related and unrelated to the Gaza strip really has given me a whole new perspective.
:spam::spamlock::spam::spamlock::spam::spamlock:
Here's an article about a guy who either a genius or totally barking mad and his theory that leads me to the conclusion that he's either a genius or totally barking mad. Basically, there's been some DNA research done that indicates that Palestinians are more closely related to Jews than they are to the surrounding Arab communities (which is impressive, given that most of the people in Isreal who consider themselves Jews are descended from people who spent the better part of 2000 years marrying non-Jews). It's far fetched, but David Ben Gurion quote in the article pretty well sums up the whole situation.
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Maybe the Israelis keep electing so-called "Warmongers" is because the last time they didn't, when Ehud Barak was PM back in 2000, the Palestinians launched the second intifadah.
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And the Temple Mount is totally uninteresting to the Jewish faith, amirite? There's a reason it's called the Temple Mount, because of the Temple of Solomon and the Temple of Harod. In fact, it's the first holiest site in Judaism, which might give some sort of precedence assuming all Abrahamic faiths are equal.
Personally, I think that the holy sites in Jerusalem should operate on a time-share basis, but that's another debate entirely.
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I seem to remember that on Sept. 27, a bomb attack killed an Israeli soldier, before Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount. Do also recall that the Palestinians walked out of the Camp David peace negotiations in July, before Sharon even took office. Finally, perhaps you should remember that previous to that, the Israelis had just ended their occupation of southern Lebanon, one of the largest Israeli concessions to the Arab world. You'd think the Palestinians would dial down the violence after that, but no, they launched the intifadah.
Drop the sarcasm and consider the targets of the violence. The Second Intifada was very... unfocused.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
It could have been a lot better than it was. The suicide bombings and rocket attacks of civilian targets were totally inexcusable.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
Why would I want to kill random Israelis? I don't believe people deserve to die because of their religion or nationality (which is more than can be said for some Palestinians).
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
It may be understandable... but there is still no excuse for it. The suicide bombings and random rocket fires are not and were not rational.
But bombarding schools and Mosques is?
So you are saying that if you were being oppressed by ANY force, that killing innocents unrelated to that oppression is completely understandable?
Because the most reasonable thing I think of when some guy pushes me is to punch their children. :\
First of all... Not intentional. Just like the US is not intentionally harming civilians in Iraq (outside of some uneducated soldiers I'm sure). I agree that Israel's strikes have been anything but conservative, but this is after a long period of being patient (given the situation both sides are in). This is the equivelant to ripping a bandaid off... I'm assuming it's meant to end the problem instead of just trying to prevent it as they go along, and although I'm not sure which is the correct route here (I'm not the one who makes the decisions), it's better than letting the situation become more stagnant, and Israel is viewing as not letting another year of terrorist attacks on it's civilians. In the end, Israel is much more capable of avoiding innocent lives being lost, compared to the other side, which was actively attacking them..?
'
Nobody here is "approving" of any killings. (at least I'm not :() Nobody is blameless, but when you compare each country's idea of "fighting", I'm afraid Israel's brutal military strategies still sound much more humane. :\
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Anyone suggesting war is anything but terrible is ignorant, naive, or stupid. The same goes for any mention of nuclear weapons, genocides, saying it's ok to wipe out anyone.... etc.
I would suggest that you just ignore anyone actually suggesting the use of nuclear arms (and similar).
Do I need to answer that? I'm saying, they are taking the higher road. It's not THAT high, but it's higher, and that means something, especially to the world watching.
Because the opposite would be....?
You can't act like a bad guy, and label yourself otherwise. Up till now, Hamas has shown itself to be the bad guy by it's actions. Most of the time, it's people are suffering because of the actions of it's leaders. Hell, they actively use their civilians as a weapon. Israel isn't exactly a "good guy", but they are certainly much better at acting like the "Better guy" in this situation. Saying otherwise is ignoring what's going on.
I don't even want to know about all the politics that went into this relationship. I'm sure money and power were connected somehow, but you'd be naive to think it was actual hatred towards anyone. I'm sure some very smart people saw it as an "investment", and hopefully it was one that involved peace and harmony in the long run.
I'm pretty sure that most people understand that Israel is not perfect, or the "good guy". However, viewing a conflict from our standpoint, there are a few things we want:
For it to be over.
For less people to get hurt.
For both sides to stop fighting.
For compromise.
The list goes on. As of now, a FEW options off the list MIGHT happen. It could be over, eventually. In the long run, that's less people hurt. And in the end, you DO have to acknowledge that one side is more capable of doing it, and that is Israel, hate them or not. At this point, saying that Hamas is correct is bordering on playing devil's advocate imho. You can't approach a war the way they did, and expect the other side to play by the rules. Regardless of how you want to say it, "Less inhumane" is still more humane.
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It all boils down to: the world has chosen who it will support in this conflict. Ending a conflict is better than neverending conflict. Israel is better equipped to fight this war, regardless of the way it's fought.
If there was injustice being done, you don't think any country would have stepped in by now? There are rallies around the world, and yet, it's not stopping Israel is it?
I know the facts, and I don't see how it changes what is happening, and what IS going to happen. I have a friend who is Jewish, and I constantly hear how terrible it is in Israel, and that poor, young country, just trying to survive against monsters... and I basically laugh in his face every time. I am fully aware that the lesser of two evils is still an evil, but what are my other options here?
Oh yeah, the one I (and millions of others) are employing now, which is "Stay the hell out of it".
I actually do think it will be better when I stop hearing about this on the news, and one side eventually absorbs the other. (since I'm pretty positive that they will never come to a compromise, even though that's probably the best option here) Anything other than that is just delaying the inevitable, and making the process more painful for everyone.
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Have the children been firing rockets at you?
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