so, after having a discussion with a couple friends about if human beings can ever truly stop being racist, I got to wondering. how racist are we?
so thar ya have it, how racist do you think you are? and how racist do you think the world is as a whole? If you feel the need to, rate yourself out of 10, same goes for the human race.
I'm not going to beat around the bush with it. I am fairly racist, I do not condone my actions or my way of thinking. But it is my opinion that is shaped by what i see around me, which (and i will not go into detail about this) is not a very good opinion. I know, i'll have the morality police on me in about a millisecond here, and quite possibly be banned by a moderator. but i don't care, so lets hear the answer.
myself, i rate a reasonably cold hearted 6/10
the world...well that's obvious 10/10 for sure.
how racist are you? i assume alot of 0/10's or 1's will appear but c'mon, not a single prejudice bone in your body? it's an ugly human truth but we must face it.
I'm a diehard racist, in that I point out that not everyone is the same, and I try to find humor in that fact. I make everything a joke, including race (I was at a restaurant one time, and they had white sugar, and brown sugar, and I couldn't help but think, where's the yellow). People are different, it's how we are. I see nothing wrong in saying it. I don't hate others for being black, or asian, or indian, or white, or polka-dotted, I just laugh cause we all are different. By that token, I'm 10/10.
Humanity, well, not everyone is like me. Some hate because they're different. The human race is as racist as me, just not always for the same reason as me. 10/10
I think you haven't gone to enough depth in the first post. If you imply that just by noticing differences one is a racist, than we're all a bunch of racists.
If you take the Wiki definition, "Racism is a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human so-called races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior."
then hell no, I'm not a racist. I don't believe my race is superior nor do I believe that I'll live longer, have healthier children or be better just because I'm white.
Most people believe that they are better (even if subconsciously) than anyone else, and that's ok, but it's not racism.
Also, your sugar-color remark/thought is not that racist unless you believe that one race has merits over another just because of color. We all joke about it, but real racism implies deeply rooted distorted values, bigotry and hate and that is usually accomplished through parental influence.
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Depends on what you mean by racist. If you consider it to be racist to point out objective facts, then there isn't much hope for me.
I could use the disproportionate amount of blacks in jail to imply that blacks are inherently more likely to commit crime. Of course, this ignores the disproportionate amount of blacks arrested for equivalent crimes such as drug possession, which is tied to a slew of social and economic issues.
Most "objective facts" are just people using personal observations to make vast generalizations, and justifying it to themselves because of a context-free statistic. In that sense, you can be demonstrating your racism in the way you use the facts you have.
Ok it seems to me that you are correct it is tied to a lot of social problems but if you are looking for drugs. You go to the ghetto and who lives in the ghetto minorities that would naturally lead to more minorities being arrested. It is not necessarily racism it is simply the law of probability.
As for me I did not consider myself a raciest until I moved to Texas but after three years here I am not nearly so open minded about illegal immigrants as I was once and it was not that I picked it up from others. It is what I learned first hand. I miss people that actually drive the speed limit. As well as being able to go to Wal-mart asking for help and the person that is working there actually speaking English. Having my child in a public school that the parents and classmates can function in main stream American society and afford the school supplies necessary for education in this country.
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I completely agree with you. The United States is full of rascists. The only reason for why it doesn't seem to be an issue is because society is so bent against the ideal of being "rascist". People won't admit it, but the truth is, they're subliminally rascist. I for one completely admit to rascism. I'm not just rascist, I'm extremely rascist. It doesn't mean that I HATE black or asian or latino people or anything, it just means that I do expect them to act in a certain way.
Many people come up and argue and say, "They're not all like that. Some are different." I'm not saying this isn't true. But the matter is, most of them ARE LIKE THAT. How can you honestly say the group in general isn't like that when a heavy majority of them are like that? Lets take this into consideration. Auto insurance companies are fully willing to charge teenagers more for insurance. So in a matter, they are PRE judging. This is heavily accepted. Why? Well the statistics say they get into more accidents. But what happens when we apply this same logic to a racial group, say Africans. Then we get a flurry of protest from people of every race.
The truth is, it is fair to judge a person by the general behavior of their group. It is nonsensical that we don't. It is also impossible that we don't. There is also reasons why the group acts alike. This is mainly due to culture, customs, etc. I believe it is wrong to hate a group from the impression of a single person from their group. But when you have a elaborate study in front of you stating a large portion of them do this or that, there is nothing wrong with prejudging the person.
I think any racist tendencies I have are entirely caused - and this... upsets me sometimes - by having watched Chapelle's Show a few times, listening to comedians 'poke fun' at racism, and being in the presence of my suicidally ignorant younger brother.
About every other day, my brother will make a racist claim that could probably hold up with the most hateful of U.S. southerners. No one in my family knows what to do about it.
... well, actually, we all agree that what he needs is to be beaten to within an inch of his life, but then we'd be the ones facing retribution for it. Pathetic system doesn't have its priorities straight.
Anyway, that's another thing.
So, I mean, I don't think I would ever have even thought about race, were it not for listening to others talk about it.
The trouble is, even in listening to so-called good-natured comedy, I have found that the derivative language is seeping into my unconscious thoughts. Something as simple as recalling a sentiment from The Boondocks, where a revived Martin Luther King Jr. calls a roomful of African-Americans... well, the hateful word. He goes on to explain that the specific people in front of him show those attributes that are downright deserving of that name (it's a gloriously dramatic moment, if you would watch this series at all). Well, in my mind now, I will have the errant thought that certain people are... those. The moment I have the thought, I tell myself I don't believe it and there's still no point in such hateful words. But it scares me that those thoughts are even there.
I am scared stiff that my tongue might slip a grievous misunderstanding one day, entirely by accident. It really is a mortifying thought.
In the conscious realm, I have been informed of the anthropological fact that there is no such thing as race. So racism is actually impossible. There can only be the faulty reasoning in linking persons by the color of their skin.
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I don't believe myself racist, or rather, consciously racist. I imagine I might have subconscious tendencies, but I haven't noticed any thus far. I really don't distinguish between the races of my friends, nor am I predisposed to befriend people of certain races beyond the fact that my town is predominantly white. That this was true of me as a child as well as now is what leads me to think I may not have any subconscious tendencies.
As for society being racist, I'm going with 4 or 5 out of 10. To those throwing 10s around, how would you have rated society in 1820? 1930? The Nazi party?
/agentORANGE, I strongly disagree with you once you start saying the majority of a race acts in a given way, or members of that race generally act in that way, but there are two reasons that happens. One is cultural heritage, as race often carries an implied ethnicity. But the real one is that a racist society expects each race to act according to its stereotypes and prejudices, and in a number of ways encourages the same.
And out of curiosity, is "rascist" a spelling error or a cute portmanteau of racist and fascist?
But the real one is that a racist society expects each race to act according to its stereotypes and prejudices, and in a number of ways encourages the same.
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I have to imagine its a non-question wether people have racist tendencies, its a matter of do people act on them or not? I know I am judgemental and racist, at least as far as first impressions and such go, but I try and I think I succeed at not letting that influence my decisions and actions.
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I'm a huuuge racist. I expect a certain race to act ig'nant, bigoted and just plain blind. Quick to judge and slow to change. And I really do expect the vast majority of them to be this way, and they really do act that way. The race is Human.
Zith, I completely agree with your philosophy that part of the reason people fit their stereotypes is because others expect them to. But I may only say this only condones racism further. Integrating your response with that of horeshoe hermit's we see that Africans are some of the ones who bring up racism the most. They persist in using the "n-word" and the comedians that poke fun at racism are largely African. In addition, they worsen the situation by making ludicrous claims such as 'Bush is racist for his mediocre response to hurricane katrina'. So in effect, by continually bringing up racism and by portraying themselves as victims, they PRESSURE us into being prejudiced against them. And so the cycle continues and Africans therefore causes the poor treatment they are given. How else does racism persist in a society in where people are afraid to admit that they are at least subliminally racist? In this matter, lightly racist (as in not radical or violent) are fully excused for their behavior.
@/agentORANGE: No one (to my knowledge) is saying its all the white man's fault, it most definatley has to have input on both sides of the equation to perpetuate such damaging stereotypes.
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I'd say it doesn't take two sides to perpetuate them, just as it doesn't to start them. I agree that such is the case here, and would add that just how much blame to lay on either side is unknowable and irrelevant. All sides need to act here in whatever capacities are available to them, which probably starts with being more rational and accurate about when to level the racism claim. The real claims with actual substance need to be addressed, but needless ones only create more trouble.
I'm somewhat surprised that nobody's come around to say that racism is good. I've been eager to hear a defense of that view, but those I've run across who hold the idea seem disinterested in discussing it.
Lets take this into consideration. Auto insurance companies are fully willing to charge teenagers more for insurance. So in a matter, they are PRE judging. This is heavily accepted. Why? Well the statistics say they get into more accidents. But what happens when we apply this same logic to a racial group, say Africans. Then we get a flurry of protest from people of every race.
A baby will drive differently then an adult and so will be more reckless with thier cars then an adult. A teenager is the same. A teenager deserves a higher rate because they are less experianced then an adult. That is why thier car insurance costs more.
There is no reason why the average black man is more likely to get into car trouble then the average white man based upon thier skin color. That's why people get up in protest when an insurance company racialy profiles thier clients and charges one group more for the same service. A drivers race has no bearing on how they handle a vechile, their age however does.
If you consider it to be racist to point out objective facts
There is no such thing, in the context of human discussion and events, as an objective fact. There are a functionally infinite number of objective facts. You must have a reason to point out one over the other. There's always an agenda. This is also why there's no such thing as an objective history or news report.
Everyone's kind of inherently wired to be racist. It's just the way the human mind works; we stereotype, which is to say, we generalize based on experiences and observation and indirect testimony. The only way to avoid it is to be aware of the problem.
There is a functional reason why teenagers are worse drivers than adults, and it's because they've had far less time driving. There are things where race is relevant, and in those instances it's a factor. You don't hire males to pose for playboy, and you don't hire an Indian woman to go undercover in the Irish Mob. But those are rare instances.
Even then I'd argue that the driving thing is still an unfair practice, but it's a notable more rational stereotype than assuming that a black person will, for instance, be a mugger.
I don't assume that people conform to stereotypes. I give myself the 1 point for residual "white guilt."
As for "the world," well, I can only speak for the world I know, so I'd have to go with about 6/10. There is a lot of institutionalized racism in the U.S. I suppose it is probably the same for most Western societies. I think though that the issue of racism is rather overblown by those who would try to make a political career of "speaking out" against perceived racism.
The racism I see the most nowadays is more directed at Latinos, [South Asian] Indians, and -- no doubt -- people of apparently Middle-Eastern descent. I suppose this stem from feeling threatened ("It's an invsion!" - "They're taking all our jobs!" - "They trying to kill us all!") which is a situation I would attribute to a combination of typical human fear and ignorance, exacerbated and exploited by political opportunists.
As far as the U.S. is concerned, despite racism getting the most attention and airplay, I'd say we are far more classist than racist. Of course, it's obvious that our racist history has kept people of color in a generally lower economic class, but the difficulty of escaping the chains of the lower class is more the result of socioeconomic injustices than actual skin-color based racism. That this goes largely ignored is a symptom of just how big a problem it is.
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Racism is an intrinsic part of humanity. In our heart of hearts we know we're more alike than different from each other but that conflicts with our absolute certainty that we're better than everyone else. Within that conflict racism, xenophobia, and ethnocentricism is derived. All you can do is know it, accept it as a part of you, and go on.
I disagree, Bitsy, as there are people who suffer inferiority complexes, and more who have milder inferiority. I have no illusions about my own superiority, and feel that most people, if not all, start on equal standing on a certain level that is above socioeconomic status. As for ethnocentrism, I stopped automatically comparing cultures to my own a while back, similar to how I stopped automatically comparing all people to myself.
So no, I wouldn't say it's an inherent part of humanity, or rather, part of adolescent humanity (children are understandably egocentric). I would instead say it's a part of traditional Western society to instill those ideas into people.
Edit - Also, it's completely against Buddhist society and people raised in such societies don't think in this way.
I disagree, Bitsy, as there are people who suffer inferiority complexes, and more who have milder inferiority. I have no illusions about my own superiority, and feel that most people, if not all, start on equal standing on a certain level that is above socioeconomic status. As for ethnocentrism, I stopped automatically comparing cultures to my own a while back, similar to how I stopped automatically comparing all people to myself.
So no, I wouldn't say it's an inherent part of humanity, or rather, part of adolescent humanity (children are understandably egocentric). I would instead say it's a part of traditional Western society to instill those ideas into people.
Edit - Also, it's completely against Buddhist society and people raised in such societies don't think in this way.
Your personal experiences can't be considered the norm. Also, they aren't really relevant if you're talking about whole societies.
Racism is certainly part of Western society but its also a part of other cultures as well. Take Chinese culture for example. The Chinese are famous for their Buddist Shaolin monks and yet when traders from the West came they called them uncultured barbarians with no basis on personal experience. I'm fairly sure that some still feel that way today, despite never meeting a Westerner. Another example would be the Japanese. Many believe(d) that their culture was superior to all others and were willing to die to uphold that belief. In Africa, there are innumerable tribal wars being fought due to ethnocentrism at the very least.
I offered my personal experience to say that it isn't part of the human condition. I'm certain I'm not the only person to have the same thing, and that's from a society that holds superiority. I suppose people like myself are in the minority, though before I was of the mind that it was just minority as far as Western society went, which that's why I threw in the Buddhist society part. My thought went something along the lines of the opposite being true, that egocentrism would be in the minority for Buddhist societies that take a different view.
I suppose I didn't think things through for the Buddhist society as far as ethnocentrism goes, though I think it still applies for egocentrism. I had a thought about how it all seems to cross with fear of the unknown, but I can't remember how that came into my mind...
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My anecdotal evidence disagrees with yours! EXPLAIN THAT!
You assumed that white people were naturally more racist than yellow. I think it rather proves the point. It's really, really hard to avoid making racial stereotypes, since they tie so closely into cultural expectations.
Actually, I assumed that European society is more predisposed to racist thought than is Buddhist society. The idea was that the people themselves aren't racist, but that the idea is planted into them by society. A few errors there, as have been pointed out.
At this point, I'd say that ethnocentrism results from a lack of exposure to multiple cultures, and that race is believed to declare ethnicity of itself, and that results in inherent racism. Beyond that, I would say that racism is a social construct, which is then passed on through socialization.
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My anecdotal evidence disagrees with yours! EXPLAIN THAT!
Undoubtedly socialization has something to do with racism. A person is statistically more likely to be outspokenly and even violently racist if he was born and raised in the Jim Crow South than in modern Vancouver. But to say racism is a "social construct" is incomplete. Even social constructs have starting points, and the starting point for the social construct that is racism pretty obviously has something to do with the inherent human fear and suspicion of the stranger/outsider. There's certainly an evolutionary benefit for your family group in not welcoming strange persons with open arms, and in killing or driving off the next group over that's competing with yours for food.
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so thar ya have it, how racist do you think you are? and how racist do you think the world is as a whole? If you feel the need to, rate yourself out of 10, same goes for the human race.
I'm not going to beat around the bush with it. I am fairly racist, I do not condone my actions or my way of thinking. But it is my opinion that is shaped by what i see around me, which (and i will not go into detail about this) is not a very good opinion. I know, i'll have the morality police on me in about a millisecond here, and quite possibly be banned by a moderator. but i don't care, so lets hear the answer.
myself, i rate a reasonably cold hearted 6/10
the world...well that's obvious 10/10 for sure.
how racist are you? i assume alot of 0/10's or 1's will appear but c'mon, not a single prejudice bone in your body? it's an ugly human truth but we must face it.
Humanity, well, not everyone is like me. Some hate because they're different. The human race is as racist as me, just not always for the same reason as me. 10/10
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If you take the Wiki definition,
"Racism is a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human so-called races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior."
then hell no, I'm not a racist. I don't believe my race is superior nor do I believe that I'll live longer, have healthier children or be better just because I'm white.
Most people believe that they are better (even if subconsciously) than anyone else, and that's ok, but it's not racism.
Also, your sugar-color remark/thought is not that racist unless you believe that one race has merits over another just because of color. We all joke about it, but real racism implies deeply rooted distorted values, bigotry and hate and that is usually accomplished through parental influence.
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I could use the disproportionate amount of blacks in jail to imply that blacks are inherently more likely to commit crime. Of course, this ignores the disproportionate amount of blacks arrested for equivalent crimes such as drug possession, which is tied to a slew of social and economic issues.
Most "objective facts" are just people using personal observations to make vast generalizations, and justifying it to themselves because of a context-free statistic. In that sense, you can be demonstrating your racism in the way you use the facts you have.
As for me I did not consider myself a raciest until I moved to Texas but after three years here I am not nearly so open minded about illegal immigrants as I was once and it was not that I picked it up from others. It is what I learned first hand. I miss people that actually drive the speed limit. As well as being able to go to Wal-mart asking for help and the person that is working there actually speaking English. Having my child in a public school that the parents and classmates can function in main stream American society and afford the school supplies necessary for education in this country.
Many people come up and argue and say, "They're not all like that. Some are different." I'm not saying this isn't true. But the matter is, most of them ARE LIKE THAT. How can you honestly say the group in general isn't like that when a heavy majority of them are like that? Lets take this into consideration. Auto insurance companies are fully willing to charge teenagers more for insurance. So in a matter, they are PRE judging. This is heavily accepted. Why? Well the statistics say they get into more accidents. But what happens when we apply this same logic to a racial group, say Africans. Then we get a flurry of protest from people of every race.
The truth is, it is fair to judge a person by the general behavior of their group. It is nonsensical that we don't. It is also impossible that we don't. There is also reasons why the group acts alike. This is mainly due to culture, customs, etc. I believe it is wrong to hate a group from the impression of a single person from their group. But when you have a elaborate study in front of you stating a large portion of them do this or that, there is nothing wrong with prejudging the person.
About every other day, my brother will make a racist claim that could probably hold up with the most hateful of U.S. southerners. No one in my family knows what to do about it.
... well, actually, we all agree that what he needs is to be beaten to within an inch of his life, but then we'd be the ones facing retribution for it. Pathetic system doesn't have its priorities straight.
Anyway, that's another thing.
So, I mean, I don't think I would ever have even thought about race, were it not for listening to others talk about it.
The trouble is, even in listening to so-called good-natured comedy, I have found that the derivative language is seeping into my unconscious thoughts. Something as simple as recalling a sentiment from The Boondocks, where a revived Martin Luther King Jr. calls a roomful of African-Americans... well, the hateful word. He goes on to explain that the specific people in front of him show those attributes that are downright deserving of that name (it's a gloriously dramatic moment, if you would watch this series at all). Well, in my mind now, I will have the errant thought that certain people are... those. The moment I have the thought, I tell myself I don't believe it and there's still no point in such hateful words. But it scares me that those thoughts are even there.
I am scared stiff that my tongue might slip a grievous misunderstanding one day, entirely by accident. It really is a mortifying thought.
In the conscious realm, I have been informed of the anthropological fact that there is no such thing as race. So racism is actually impossible. There can only be the faulty reasoning in linking persons by the color of their skin.
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As for society being racist, I'm going with 4 or 5 out of 10. To those throwing 10s around, how would you have rated society in 1820? 1930? The Nazi party?
/agentORANGE, I strongly disagree with you once you start saying the majority of a race acts in a given way, or members of that race generally act in that way, but there are two reasons that happens. One is cultural heritage, as race often carries an implied ethnicity. But the real one is that a racist society expects each race to act according to its stereotypes and prejudices, and in a number of ways encourages the same.
And out of curiosity, is "rascist" a spelling error or a cute portmanteau of racist and fascist?
We have a winner! Self fufilling destinies and such...
I have to imagine its a non-question wether people have racist tendencies, its a matter of do people act on them or not? I know I am judgemental and racist, at least as far as first impressions and such go, but I try and I think I succeed at not letting that influence my decisions and actions.
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I'm somewhat surprised that nobody's come around to say that racism is good. I've been eager to hear a defense of that view, but those I've run across who hold the idea seem disinterested in discussing it.
A baby will drive differently then an adult and so will be more reckless with thier cars then an adult. A teenager is the same. A teenager deserves a higher rate because they are less experianced then an adult. That is why thier car insurance costs more.
There is no reason why the average black man is more likely to get into car trouble then the average white man based upon thier skin color. That's why people get up in protest when an insurance company racialy profiles thier clients and charges one group more for the same service. A drivers race has no bearing on how they handle a vechile, their age however does.
There is no such thing, in the context of human discussion and events, as an objective fact. There are a functionally infinite number of objective facts. You must have a reason to point out one over the other. There's always an agenda. This is also why there's no such thing as an objective history or news report.
Everyone's kind of inherently wired to be racist. It's just the way the human mind works; we stereotype, which is to say, we generalize based on experiences and observation and indirect testimony. The only way to avoid it is to be aware of the problem.
There is a functional reason why teenagers are worse drivers than adults, and it's because they've had far less time driving. There are things where race is relevant, and in those instances it's a factor. You don't hire males to pose for playboy, and you don't hire an Indian woman to go undercover in the Irish Mob. But those are rare instances.
Even then I'd argue that the driving thing is still an unfair practice, but it's a notable more rational stereotype than assuming that a black person will, for instance, be a mugger.
I don't assume that people conform to stereotypes. I give myself the 1 point for residual "white guilt."
As for "the world," well, I can only speak for the world I know, so I'd have to go with about 6/10. There is a lot of institutionalized racism in the U.S. I suppose it is probably the same for most Western societies. I think though that the issue of racism is rather overblown by those who would try to make a political career of "speaking out" against perceived racism.
The racism I see the most nowadays is more directed at Latinos, [South Asian] Indians, and -- no doubt -- people of apparently Middle-Eastern descent. I suppose this stem from feeling threatened ("It's an invsion!" - "They're taking all our jobs!" - "They trying to kill us all!") which is a situation I would attribute to a combination of typical human fear and ignorance, exacerbated and exploited by political opportunists.
As far as the U.S. is concerned, despite racism getting the most attention and airplay, I'd say we are far more classist than racist. Of course, it's obvious that our racist history has kept people of color in a generally lower economic class, but the difficulty of escaping the chains of the lower class is more the result of socioeconomic injustices than actual skin-color based racism. That this goes largely ignored is a symptom of just how big a problem it is.
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So no, I wouldn't say it's an inherent part of humanity, or rather, part of adolescent humanity (children are understandably egocentric). I would instead say it's a part of traditional Western society to instill those ideas into people.
Edit - Also, it's completely against Buddhist society and people raised in such societies don't think in this way.
Your personal experiences can't be considered the norm. Also, they aren't really relevant if you're talking about whole societies.
Racism is certainly part of Western society but its also a part of other cultures as well. Take Chinese culture for example. The Chinese are famous for their Buddist Shaolin monks and yet when traders from the West came they called them uncultured barbarians with no basis on personal experience. I'm fairly sure that some still feel that way today, despite never meeting a Westerner. Another example would be the Japanese. Many believe(d) that their culture was superior to all others and were willing to die to uphold that belief. In Africa, there are innumerable tribal wars being fought due to ethnocentrism at the very least.
I suppose I didn't think things through for the Buddhist society as far as ethnocentrism goes, though I think it still applies for egocentrism. I had a thought about how it all seems to cross with fear of the unknown, but I can't remember how that came into my mind...
At this point, I'd say that ethnocentrism results from a lack of exposure to multiple cultures, and that race is believed to declare ethnicity of itself, and that results in inherent racism. Beyond that, I would say that racism is a social construct, which is then passed on through socialization.
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