You really can't admire George Washington enough for not becoming a ruthless dictator, which was well within his power. John Adams is probably the most underrated president.
I should've thought to post this in the other thread, but here's wiki's gathering of poll data on the issue. If you go to the top of the table, they have the names of various polls with a little square link next to each one. By clicking on that link, it will sort the table according to that column.
From there, you find that most people, scholars included, vote Lincoln, FDR, Jefferson, Teddy, Wilson and Washington into the top ranks. Clinton is also starting to garner respect.
My own vote is for Thomas Jefferson. He had a large number of excellent ideas and did a great job with the justice system.
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My anecdotal evidence disagrees with yours! EXPLAIN THAT!
Not possessing the usual American bias against anything or anyone perceived as having any connection with anything that could be called "socialist", I think FDR was probably one of the best things to happen to your country, and he came at a time that he was needed the most.
Washington stands out. Its been kinda hard to top him. He was ahead of his time; he is the reason there was an unoffical two term limit until FDR broke it. Then the two term limit became law. The only reason that rule exists is because Washington served two terms.
I'd go into other things about Washingon, but it would be way too long. You could probably look up Washington on Wikipedia if you want to know more about him.
To qualify best president, you have to realize that every president has his follies... Cleveland had his bachelor 'indiscretion', FDR had all sorts of issues, Lincoln was a depressive little bastard who had to deal with a lot of 'no duh' decisions but made up for it when the time came. I figure the best way to be a 'great president' is to just not screw up too much.
As that goes, I go for William Henry Harrison. He just didn't have enough time to screw up, and he makes for an enjoyable historical anecdote to validate the whole 'button up your coat and wear your galoshes!' argument.
Slainte,
-Loonook
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I tend to think that everyone who votes for Jefferson does so because they're confusing the man's lifelong achievements with what he actually did as President. By which measure, John Adams certainly belongs in the top five.
I'm trying to figure out which is a bigger mar on your presidency; the alien and sedition act, or conceiving of the Indian Reservation. No one ever remembers to credit Jefferson with the latter, so historiographically, surely the former.
Oh, I was just going off presidency. He and Washington both did great things to help solidify the nation in its youth while president. Actions against the indigenous peoples are understandable, and don't take down Andrew Jackson, another highly-regarded president. Even so, I've failed to find anything linking reservations to Jefferson, just that his administration encouraged them to join white society. It seems to me that Andrew Jackson really sparked the idea with the strong Indian Removal position. Do you have a quote or a link?
It wasn't a particularly easy decision on who to say in my post, as my opinion shifts between FDR, Jefferson and Washington over time.
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My anecdotal evidence disagrees with yours! EXPLAIN THAT!
I stumbled upon it a couple of times, but I'm currently unable to find such a reference to a direct design of the reservation, although the general concept was mirrored in his attitudes towards the Indian tribes, at least those not "civilized" in line with American desires.
Andrew Jackson was, of course, far worse. I think his bad far outweighs his good. If Nixon isn't in the top fifteen, I don't see why Jackson should be.
Faced the most difficult war in our nation's history, gave freedom to millions, is by far the most inspirational orator of any president, and had one of the greatest impacts on the office and character of the union out of any president. All while forming a new party and trying to navigate one of the most politically delicate situations any president has had to face.
I am more than willing to pardon the methods he had to employ to get there.
I vote for Lincoln. He presided over a war that saw the deaths of more Americans than all other wars from the American Revolution through most of Vietname (about 50% of all American deaths in war). The country was torn apart and he helped put it back together. He had to deal with his share of naysayers who wanted to end the Civil War and permanently divide the country. His cabinet was one of the best (if not the best) in American history. Chase established monetary policies that we continue to use today. Seward pushed through the purchase of Alaska.
Washington comes in a close second as helping to shape our nation.
FDR was good for guiding America through the Great Depression and World War II.
As for more current Presidents, I like Reagan for ending the cold war. And, I'm glad no one mentioned Jimmy Carter 'cause he was terrible - the high (if not the highest) inflation, gas lines, terrible foreign policy (loss of Iran, Nicauragua; invasion of Afghanistan; hostage crisis) and domestic policy (inflation, gas prices, gas lines). Finally, Jimmy is the only President that I know of who had to fight off killer bunnies.
I think that there is no perfect president. However, there are a few presidents who have garnered my respect for their abilities to handle internal and external policies. Of these, Nixon and Clinton get my votes. Being impeached doesn't mean that you are a bad president. It means that you are unpopular.
We saw what high crimes and misdemeanors breaks down to, didn't we? So, ignoring the few oversights he committed, I am considering Clinton the best president the US has had.
Keep in mind that I am not a historian, and there are whole spans of history where I can barely name presidents, let alone be familiar with their achievements.
Harkius
I agree that there is no perfect president.
Nixon, despite engagement with China, is most certainly not on my good list thanks to Watergate and the Linebacker operations (Linebacker was the bombing of Laos and Cambodia). I think withdrawing U.S. troops from Vietnam was the right course, but it would have been better if the South Vietnamese weren't left out to die at the hands of the North. Pushing for a real political solution and making damn sure the government and army of South Vietnam was in working order before leaving should have been a priority. There might be a lesson we can learn from that today.
I think Clinton's sins are blown way out of porportion. Unfortunately, so are his accomplishments.
From what I have heard in recent news stories (last five years or so), the hostage crisis was a result of Reagan, not Carter. Does anyone have more information on this?
Harkius
Well, Carter's administration allowed the Shah to come to the Mayo Clinic for treatment in October, and then in November an upset and newly revolutionized Tehran takes Americans as hostage.
Reagan had nothing to do with the situation. Heck, the hostages were released when Reagan came to office - not because they were afraid of Reagan, but because they wanted to insult Carter that much more.
From what I have heard in recent news stories (last five years or so), the hostage crisis was a result of Reagan, not Carter. Does anyone have more information on this?
Harkius
Unless you mean Reagan and the Republicans had a hand in setting it up, no. In fact the hostage crisis is often cited as a major factor in why Carter lost the election, what with the handling it so poorly. And the hostages were released almost right after Reagan was elected, hence the conspiracy theory.
I don't know where you heard that Reagan caused the crisis, he wasn't even in office at the time. If you read the conspiracy theory that Reagan's staffers somehow managed to make the crisis last longer, there was never any evidence for it, and it doesn't make much logical sense.
The crisis played out fairly independent of the presidency. The cause was the U.S. support for the Shah, and that we would not send him back to Iran to be executed. Carter was really weak on his response, which is one of the reasons why it lasted so long, and Reagan's rhetoric was far more bellicose.
What ended it though was the Iran-Iraq war, and that they didn’t want a two front fight. We lifted the sanctions, they gave back the people. I doubt the dishonor of letting them take our people hostage was ever avenged, but that is less important in the grand scheme of things (and while I wouldn’t shed any tears for the leadership, most of the hypothetical retaliatory bombing would probably just impact civilians).
I guess many have said things about how Washington, Lincoln, FDR et al are hard to chose among, and I feel the same way.
So, rather, I will just talk about who I think is overrated.
First of all, Reagan is overrated. He might not be that bad of a president overall, but the Iran-Contra scandal was pretty bad. And he doesn't deserve that much credit for the end of the Soviet Union as he is given - there were many internal factors to that, not to mention that plenty of other countries played a role. And his plan to reduce government spending by reducing taxes really only resulted in the American government going into massive debt. Oh, and he started the War on Drugs, which not everyone thinks is bad, but I think it is. So, he had some significant problems, so he really is more middle of the road (which is where he is often ranked by scholars anyhow).
JFK is probably a bit overrated too, just because of the fact that he was assassinated.
I think too much is made of the Iran hostage crisis - while Carter should have handled it better, it should be just as much a stain on Eisenhower's presidency for allowing the CIA coup that deposed Mossadeq and installed the Shah, which is the event that created much of the hostility that Iran bears towards America to this day.
And George W Bush is overrated too. At least, based on those polls on Wikipedia, he is ranked much too high. But I suppose current public opinion wouldn't be too likely to rank him that highly, unless we're using a bad ranking system (i.e. one where you make one choice for the best, rather than a ranking list).
First of all, Reagan is overrated. [snip] And he doesn't deserve that much credit for the end of the Soviet Union as he is given - there were many internal factors to that, not to mention that plenty of other countries played a role.
Reagan sped up the end of the Soviet Union by putting them in a situation where they would have to start backing down or building up their military. They chose to build up, which ultimately bankrupted them.
And his plan to reduce government spending by reducing taxes really only resulted in the American government going into massive debt.
Actually, his plan would have worked - when the tax rates went down, the amount of money coming in went up substantially - but the "reduce government spending" didn't happen. Spending went up a lot more than the increased revenue.
JFK is probably a bit overrated too, just because of the fact that he was assassinated.
Agreed.
Now for my opinion: not a fan of his policies, but FDR would rank very high on my list for the simple reason that his policies single-handedly stopped the Communist Party's expansion in America.
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Guns don't kill people. Bullets kill people. Guns just make them move really, really fast.
Reagan sped up the end of the Soviet Union by putting them in a situation where they would have to start backing down or building up their military. They chose to build up, which ultimately bankrupted them.
The bankrupting of the USSR was more as a result of American pressure on Saudi Arabia to flood the market with oil, driving it's price down, then with American pressure on the Soviet Union to build up their military.
Soviet Oil made the Soviet Union a lot of money, and when the Saudis drove the price of oil down to new lows, it really crippled the Reds.
Not possessing the usual American bias against anything or anyone perceived as having any connection with anything that could be called "socialist"...
Yet clearly possessing the usual other-places-than-America bias against anything or anyone perceived as having any connection with anything that could be called "American." Some of us like the S-word, you know. But I agree with you about FDR.
Washington turned down being King of America. I don't think anything any other president has done has topped what he did. He was dedicated to selflessly making the country work.
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Reagan is overrated, vastly. Gorbachav gets the short end of the stick when it comes to the end of the Cold War but he was very instrumental in dismanteling the Soviet Union.
A very highly and very contested president is James K. Polk, one of my favorites. A lot of scholars put him in the middle. He won a favorable war with Mexico but in hindsight it is also a very troubling, disturbing, and manipulative war. He expanded the rest of the US to the Pacific Ocean, thus capping the Manifest Destiny that was gripping America and he did what he said he would do in only 4 years.
I throw an honorable mention to Jefferson - the Louisiana Purchase was pretty key, and it spurred the nation to become bigger and better into what we are today (granted, the US has degenerated some from what it sought out to become, but I think it's still pretty fine.)
I put the likes of Washington and Adams at the top of the list for working so diligently to make America different from England when we had finally won the Revolution. Conversely, while I can admire FDR for enacting progams that were necessary during the depression when the economy was flatlining, it bothers me that these programs have now become the basis of all our socialist programs the government holds on to such as social security and welfare.
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Who was the best president?
(Of the United States, of course. Everybody knows that the best president period was Hiroshi Yamauchi!)
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
I kid, I kid.
You really can't admire George Washington enough for not becoming a ruthless dictator, which was well within his power. John Adams is probably the most underrated president.
From there, you find that most people, scholars included, vote Lincoln, FDR, Jefferson, Teddy, Wilson and Washington into the top ranks. Clinton is also starting to garner respect.
My own vote is for Thomas Jefferson. He had a large number of excellent ideas and did a great job with the justice system.
I'm gonna go with Lincoln.
I mean hes considered to be the father of our country thats big right there.
Feel free to bid on my cards here!
I'd go into other things about Washingon, but it would be way too long. You could probably look up Washington on Wikipedia if you want to know more about him.
As that goes, I go for William Henry Harrison. He just didn't have enough time to screw up, and he makes for an enjoyable historical anecdote to validate the whole 'button up your coat and wear your galoshes!' argument.
Slainte,
-Loonook
Debating on Salvation because News just doesn't have the oomph for me . . .
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I'm trying to figure out which is a bigger mar on your presidency; the alien and sedition act, or conceiving of the Indian Reservation. No one ever remembers to credit Jefferson with the latter, so historiographically, surely the former.
It wasn't a particularly easy decision on who to say in my post, as my opinion shifts between FDR, Jefferson and Washington over time.
Andrew Jackson was, of course, far worse. I think his bad far outweighs his good. If Nixon isn't in the top fifteen, I don't see why Jackson should be.
Faced the most difficult war in our nation's history, gave freedom to millions, is by far the most inspirational orator of any president, and had one of the greatest impacts on the office and character of the union out of any president. All while forming a new party and trying to navigate one of the most politically delicate situations any president has had to face.
I am more than willing to pardon the methods he had to employ to get there.
Washington comes in a close second as helping to shape our nation.
FDR was good for guiding America through the Great Depression and World War II.
As for more current Presidents, I like Reagan for ending the cold war. And, I'm glad no one mentioned Jimmy Carter 'cause he was terrible - the high (if not the highest) inflation, gas lines, terrible foreign policy (loss of Iran, Nicauragua; invasion of Afghanistan; hostage crisis) and domestic policy (inflation, gas prices, gas lines). Finally, Jimmy is the only President that I know of who had to fight off killer bunnies.
I agree that there is no perfect president.
Nixon, despite engagement with China, is most certainly not on my good list thanks to Watergate and the Linebacker operations (Linebacker was the bombing of Laos and Cambodia). I think withdrawing U.S. troops from Vietnam was the right course, but it would have been better if the South Vietnamese weren't left out to die at the hands of the North. Pushing for a real political solution and making damn sure the government and army of South Vietnam was in working order before leaving should have been a priority. There might be a lesson we can learn from that today.
I think Clinton's sins are blown way out of porportion. Unfortunately, so are his accomplishments.
Well, Carter's administration allowed the Shah to come to the Mayo Clinic for treatment in October, and then in November an upset and newly revolutionized Tehran takes Americans as hostage.
Reagan had nothing to do with the situation. Heck, the hostages were released when Reagan came to office - not because they were afraid of Reagan, but because they wanted to insult Carter that much more.
Unless you mean Reagan and the Republicans had a hand in setting it up, no. In fact the hostage crisis is often cited as a major factor in why Carter lost the election, what with the handling it so poorly. And the hostages were released almost right after Reagan was elected, hence the conspiracy theory.
I don't know where you heard that Reagan caused the crisis, he wasn't even in office at the time. If you read the conspiracy theory that Reagan's staffers somehow managed to make the crisis last longer, there was never any evidence for it, and it doesn't make much logical sense.
The crisis played out fairly independent of the presidency. The cause was the U.S. support for the Shah, and that we would not send him back to Iran to be executed. Carter was really weak on his response, which is one of the reasons why it lasted so long, and Reagan's rhetoric was far more bellicose.
What ended it though was the Iran-Iraq war, and that they didn’t want a two front fight. We lifted the sanctions, they gave back the people. I doubt the dishonor of letting them take our people hostage was ever avenged, but that is less important in the grand scheme of things (and while I wouldn’t shed any tears for the leadership, most of the hypothetical retaliatory bombing would probably just impact civilians).
So, rather, I will just talk about who I think is overrated.
First of all, Reagan is overrated. He might not be that bad of a president overall, but the Iran-Contra scandal was pretty bad. And he doesn't deserve that much credit for the end of the Soviet Union as he is given - there were many internal factors to that, not to mention that plenty of other countries played a role. And his plan to reduce government spending by reducing taxes really only resulted in the American government going into massive debt. Oh, and he started the War on Drugs, which not everyone thinks is bad, but I think it is. So, he had some significant problems, so he really is more middle of the road (which is where he is often ranked by scholars anyhow).
JFK is probably a bit overrated too, just because of the fact that he was assassinated.
I think too much is made of the Iran hostage crisis - while Carter should have handled it better, it should be just as much a stain on Eisenhower's presidency for allowing the CIA coup that deposed Mossadeq and installed the Shah, which is the event that created much of the hostility that Iran bears towards America to this day.
And George W Bush is overrated too. At least, based on those polls on Wikipedia, he is ranked much too high. But I suppose current public opinion wouldn't be too likely to rank him that highly, unless we're using a bad ranking system (i.e. one where you make one choice for the best, rather than a ranking list).
Reagan sped up the end of the Soviet Union by putting them in a situation where they would have to start backing down or building up their military. They chose to build up, which ultimately bankrupted them.
Actually, his plan would have worked - when the tax rates went down, the amount of money coming in went up substantially - but the "reduce government spending" didn't happen. Spending went up a lot more than the increased revenue.
Agreed.
Now for my opinion: not a fan of his policies, but FDR would rank very high on my list for the simple reason that his policies single-handedly stopped the Communist Party's expansion in America.
The bankrupting of the USSR was more as a result of American pressure on Saudi Arabia to flood the market with oil, driving it's price down, then with American pressure on the Soviet Union to build up their military.
Soviet Oil made the Soviet Union a lot of money, and when the Saudis drove the price of oil down to new lows, it really crippled the Reds.
Yet clearly possessing the usual other-places-than-America bias against anything or anyone perceived as having any connection with anything that could be called "American." Some of us like the S-word, you know. But I agree with you about FDR.
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A very highly and very contested president is James K. Polk, one of my favorites. A lot of scholars put him in the middle. He won a favorable war with Mexico but in hindsight it is also a very troubling, disturbing, and manipulative war. He expanded the rest of the US to the Pacific Ocean, thus capping the Manifest Destiny that was gripping America and he did what he said he would do in only 4 years.