Right now only CNN is reporting his death, the AP, Reuters, and Yahoo are yet to do so. At any rate I do not think there is much to debate here unless we want to turn this into a capital punishment discussion. Which I happen to not support. At the same time I do not exactly feel sympathy for the guy.
Edit: Yahoo and Reuters now have confirmed it. Still it is all based on Iraqi television reports.
Right now only CNN is reporting his death, the AP, Reuters, and Yahoo are yet to do so. At any rate I do not think there is much to debate here unless we want to turn this into a capital punishment discussion. Which I happen to not support. At the same time I do not exactly feel sympathy for the guy.
Edit: Yahoo and Reuters now have confirmed it. Still it is all based on Iraqi television reports.
i was more of leaning to will this make iraqis more or less violent toward americans? what about toward each other? ect ect.
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I totally support u only, he was one of the worst human beens ever.
Oh, please. Let's have some perspective, shall we?
Yes, he committed crimes against humanity. Yes, he was a horrible person. But to say he is one of first is a hard claim to back up. He ordered the mass murder of many Iraqis. One could argue our own president ordered the death of Americans by sending them to Iraq.
One could argue our own president ordered the death of Americans by sending them to Iraq.
They would probably lose that argument. There is a difference between ordering someone to be killed, and sending volunteer men and women to war.
On the capital punishment, I think it is justifiable because I believe that all the people who suffered because of him deserve it. I couldn't care less about his rights right now, but I do care about the numerous family members and friends of the people he had killed.
I'm not touching the death penalty argument with a ten-foot pole. All I'm going to comment on is the possible consequences it might have. I personally think it will plunge the country deeper into its civil war since this was pretty much an act of vengeance on the part of the Shiites, since they did not allow his other crimes to be tried (including his deadliest one, the Kurd gassing). The Sunnis will not like this, they'll riot some more, they'll kill some Shiites, Shiites will retaliate, etc. etc. and the circle of death will continue. So pretty much not much will change except for (possibly) an increase in the magnitude of the civil war.
Well, as they said on NBC, most of the people rioting already/commiting acts of violence are Sunni's, and as such, this can only piss them off more. I doubt its going to bring a HUGE influx of violence. Certainly, some more in the short term.
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Quote from Cochese »
Do threads in this forum ever not get hijacked by the magical invisible hand of the market guys?
I think this is less of a concern than the whole issue of insurgency in Iraq, widespread unemployment in Iraq, and lack of power in Iraq. We took out a political enemy, case closed, moving on...
They would probably lose that argument. There is a difference between ordering someone to be killed, and sending volunteer men and women to war.
Except he has responsibility to those volunteers in being absolutely sure that when he puts them in the line of danger he's doing it for a good reason on credible evidence and intelligence of a major threat to the nation they volunteered to defend. Not sent in the line of danger for flimflam reasoning, bad intelligence, or whatever. They didn't volunteer to be pawns of American capitalistic mechanizations, they volunteered to defend and fight for this nation and its people. Remember when presidents used to take responsibility and admit their mistakes? That was awesome. Obviously it's all very arguable. Just because they volunteered doesn't mean you can send them willy-nilly.
As for "HE KILL PEOPLE. HE DIE", that's caveman logic. Frankly I was under the assumption that a great deal of these tyrants/war criminals/etc try to kill themselves, rather than age miserably in the confines of prison. Look at some of the Nazis that killed themselves.
I think release from life is a godsend compared to winding away your remaining decades in a miserable prison until you inevitably die, knowing you will never know freedom. That's far far more suffering, suffering stretched out. That would be a far worse punishment.
I think they executed him on one of the holidays that our enemies celebrate... Now I'm all for killing the guy, after sealing him in a room with a whole bunch of angry mothers of the people he killed but to kill him during thier holiday... A people who riot because of dutch cartoonist...
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"I love those moments. I like to wave at them as they pass by."
Although I am personally glad that Saddam is no longer a leader of a country, we did invade there wrongfully, but to some people, the ends have justified the means.
I have read some of the corresepondence that has been released that was written by Saddam over the past few months. He appears to have grown introspective in the face of his demise. Man looks in the abyss, there's nothing staring back at him. At that moment, man finds his character. And that is what keeps him out of the abyss.
Not to say that the final month of his life may keep him out of hell, but as a Muslim, [sarcasm] he's going to hell anyway [/sarcasm]
In all seriousness, though, his reign was one of modern-day terror that should be frowned upon by the international community, as it is by most people.
Although I do not believe he should have been executed ( it is a personal thing i have against capital murder) my personal intuition tells me that I should not believe that any man fears to be dead, but only the stroke of death. If he had been kept alive, however, he would likely have been assassinated (sp) in prison, or would have cost the Iraqi and American governments a great deal of time and money protecting him and imprisoning him. It may appear to be a somewhat economic point of view, it is the one that allows me to not rebel against my country.
As far as I'm concerned, this is one more step closer to unplugging the Cold War from its artificial respirator so we can finally watch it die and get on with our lives. Saddam was hardly a good man, and it's no mystery the horrors he would cause. The question here is how much the country would benefit without him.
Right now, it's pretty clear that the country is NOT better without Saddam because basic things like security, electricity, and the economy have been severely jeopardized. Now, every country that faces major political change has its periods of anarchy. Still, we really need to get our act together.
I think they executed him on one of the holidays that our enemies celebrate... Now I'm all for killing the guy, after sealing him in a room with a whole bunch of angry mothers of the people he killed but to kill him during thier holiday... A people who riot because of dutch cartoonist...
Actually, they killed him before sunrise, at which point the holiday had not started yet. Either way, they sent letters out to the clerics asking if executions were prohibited on the holiday. I assume the answer was no, and the Sunni's, the ones who would be most upset about this, don't actually start the holiday until tomorrow.
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Quote from Cochese »
Do threads in this forum ever not get hijacked by the magical invisible hand of the market guys?
Regarding capital punishment and it's worth, i think it's good in certain circumstances. Like when we can -absolutely- not afford to have somebody alive. Such as if there's fear they would escape, times of chaos, etc. etc. In this case, I think solitary would have been best.
Anyway, about the future impacts on said event. I believe that it'll only lead to more violence. Like the US was fortelling, I think that soon we'll see what the Shiites and Sunnis have to say about that ...
As far as violence goes, what I am hoping for as a best case scenario is the surge in violence immediatley after is not particularly bad, and that in the long run, his death will crush any hopes of returing Iraq to its former position, and hopefully the violence will then subside some.
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Quote from Cochese »
Do threads in this forum ever not get hijacked by the magical invisible hand of the market guys?
As for "HE KILL PEOPLE. HE DIE", that's caveman logic. Frankly I was under the assumption that a great deal of these tyrants/war criminals/etc try to kill themselves, rather than age miserably in the confines of prison. Look at some of the Nazis that killed themselves.
I think release from life is a godsend compared to winding away your remaining decades in a miserable prison until you inevitably die, knowing you will never know freedom. That's far far more suffering, suffering stretched out. That would be a far worse punishment.
So... you're against the death penalty because it's not cruel enough?
I have read some of the corresepondence that has been released that was written by Saddam over the past few months. He appears to have grown introspective in the face of his demise. Man looks in the abyss, there's nothing staring back at him. At that moment, man finds his character. And that is what keeps him out of the abyss.
If so, good for him. I'm a little suspicious, to be frank, but what I think matters not a jot for his spiritual well-being.
In any case, if even one Iraqi insurgent thinks him to be a martyr, reads his final statements, and decides to put up his gun, that's good enough for me.
Quote from hollywoody1221 »
Not to say that the final month of his life may keep him out of hell, but as a Muslim, [sarcasm] he's going to hell anyway [/sarcasm]
Sarcasm should not only be pointed, but have a point. What's yours?
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candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
Blinking Spirit is correct on all counts. Those who say Saddam did not suffer enough disgust me as a human being. There's no joy in this, and anyone who salivates over this bloodbath is an absolute barbarian.
I disagree with Saddam's execution on footage. Youtube needs to take it down.
Edit: Yahoo and Reuters now have confirmed it. Still it is all based on Iraqi television reports.
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i was more of leaning to will this make iraqis more or less violent toward americans? what about toward each other? ect ect.
I totally support u only, he was one of the worst human beens ever.
my have/wants list: :http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=95773
Oh, please. Let's have some perspective, shall we?
Yes, he committed crimes against humanity. Yes, he was a horrible person. But to say he is one of first is a hard claim to back up. He ordered the mass murder of many Iraqis. One could argue our own president ordered the death of Americans by sending them to Iraq.
And how does being a bad person = death?
just out of curiosity, why do you classify him as one of the worst?
They would probably lose that argument. There is a difference between ordering someone to be killed, and sending volunteer men and women to war.
On the capital punishment, I think it is justifiable because I believe that all the people who suffered because of him deserve it. I couldn't care less about his rights right now, but I do care about the numerous family members and friends of the people he had killed.
By kingcobweb and Goblinboy.
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I only hope his death was long and full of suffering.
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Except he has responsibility to those volunteers in being absolutely sure that when he puts them in the line of danger he's doing it for a good reason on credible evidence and intelligence of a major threat to the nation they volunteered to defend. Not sent in the line of danger for flimflam reasoning, bad intelligence, or whatever. They didn't volunteer to be pawns of American capitalistic mechanizations, they volunteered to defend and fight for this nation and its people. Remember when presidents used to take responsibility and admit their mistakes? That was awesome. Obviously it's all very arguable. Just because they volunteered doesn't mean you can send them willy-nilly.
As for "HE KILL PEOPLE. HE DIE", that's caveman logic. Frankly I was under the assumption that a great deal of these tyrants/war criminals/etc try to kill themselves, rather than age miserably in the confines of prison. Look at some of the Nazis that killed themselves.
I think release from life is a godsend compared to winding away your remaining decades in a miserable prison until you inevitably die, knowing you will never know freedom. That's far far more suffering, suffering stretched out. That would be a far worse punishment.
The N...
I have read some of the corresepondence that has been released that was written by Saddam over the past few months. He appears to have grown introspective in the face of his demise. Man looks in the abyss, there's nothing staring back at him. At that moment, man finds his character. And that is what keeps him out of the abyss.
Not to say that the final month of his life may keep him out of hell, but as a Muslim, [sarcasm] he's going to hell anyway [/sarcasm]
In all seriousness, though, his reign was one of modern-day terror that should be frowned upon by the international community, as it is by most people.
Although I do not believe he should have been executed ( it is a personal thing i have against capital murder) my personal intuition tells me that I should not believe that any man fears to be dead, but only the stroke of death. If he had been kept alive, however, he would likely have been assassinated (sp) in prison, or would have cost the Iraqi and American governments a great deal of time and money protecting him and imprisoning him. It may appear to be a somewhat economic point of view, it is the one that allows me to not rebel against my country.
Right now, it's pretty clear that the country is NOT better without Saddam because basic things like security, electricity, and the economy have been severely jeopardized. Now, every country that faces major political change has its periods of anarchy. Still, we really need to get our act together.
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Actually, they killed him before sunrise, at which point the holiday had not started yet. Either way, they sent letters out to the clerics asking if executions were prohibited on the holiday. I assume the answer was no, and the Sunni's, the ones who would be most upset about this, don't actually start the holiday until tomorrow.
Nobody ever deserves death sentence. Ever.
And it was really stupid too, I'm pretty sure it will lead to a wave of violence, but only time will tell.
Regarding capital punishment and it's worth, i think it's good in certain circumstances. Like when we can -absolutely- not afford to have somebody alive. Such as if there's fear they would escape, times of chaos, etc. etc. In this case, I think solitary would have been best.
Anyway, about the future impacts on said event. I believe that it'll only lead to more violence. Like the US was fortelling, I think that soon we'll see what the Shiites and Sunnis have to say about that ...
I don't. I believe in justice, not cruelty.
So... you're against the death penalty because it's not cruel enough?
If so, good for him. I'm a little suspicious, to be frank, but what I think matters not a jot for his spiritual well-being.
In any case, if even one Iraqi insurgent thinks him to be a martyr, reads his final statements, and decides to put up his gun, that's good enough for me.
Sarcasm should not only be pointed, but have a point. What's yours?
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
I disagree with Saddam's execution on footage. Youtube needs to take it down.