I don’t think your elf list is optimal; not running 4x Summoner’s Pact is an error. I’ve been testing it thoroughly and playing it against my local pool of legacy players. After a lot of work, this is what I’ve come up with. In about 15% of games, it can win on turn 2 if you play very aggressively. It combos out on turn 3 in about 50% of draws on the play. On turn 4 or turn 3 if you’re on the draw, it will nearly always win:
Hunting around for deals, I was able to put it together for $220.
It gets rid of Elvish Visionary, which I have found to be in practice, the weakest card in the list. Drawing cards is more than taken care of by the rest of the list, and Visionary just doesn’t produce enough mana to justify itself. Eternal Witness is a must, as it is a tutorable second Glimpse of Nature, and you don’t really have the full combo until you have two Glimpses of Nature going.
I don’t own any fetchlands, but I’d play with 8 of them to thin out draws and make the combo more consistent if I had them.
I still don’t have a sideboard figured out. I’d be curious to see what people think. This is easily the most powerful deck I’ve ever owned.
Well the deck is very dependent on it's initial hand and on the draw. It's extremely strong with the right type of hand, but dead in the water with others. In that sense, some have tried to include cards like ponder (you cascade into it =/), but I'm not too sure how much this helps and how much it hurts. Obviously, The list I posted is the one I prefer, but some may disagree with me.
Overall the deck feels a lot like belcher to me, only, when it gets its turn 0 hands it actually has the ability to defend against FoW, which is something I really like. The synergy with the chancellors is crazy. because they act both as spell that help protect and speed up the combo and as combo pieces themselves you dont have to worry about having too many fatties compared to other cards that help the deck along.
As far as sideboard goes, that's kind of difficult, seeing as this deck is a one trick pony of sorts. In the past leyline of sanctity, mindbreak trap and krosan grip have both been used with success. I would probably include Ingot chewer for his invoke and the fact that he can come out with the hypergenesis. The board could also include more elephants and angels in case you face a meta with lots of prison decks.
keep in mind that low cost cards that you may initially want like Xantid Swarm cant be used because they will affect your cascade.
as far as matchups go its pretty much what you would expect for a combo deck. you prey on aggro and have a rough time against control. Discard hurts more than counterspells because you have no library or draw manipulation. One nice thing is that you dont auto lose to chalice/trini decks like traditional combo does, simply because anything you try and cast costs 3 or more anyways.
Why doesn't Hypergenesis autolose to chalice/trinisphere? Chalice @ 0 counters Hypergenesis and Trinisphere forces you to pay 3 mana for Hypergensis. Well, it's not necessary autolose for Trinisphere, but paying six mana seems bad. Game 2/3 is obviously different but Chalice is more of a maindeck card in the decks that run it, so I would imagine that Hypergenesis would autolose game 1 if an opponent catches onto what you're doing.
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I don’t think your elf list is optimal; not running 4x Summoner’s Pact is an error. I’ve been testing it thoroughly and playing it against my local pool of legacy players. After a lot of work, this is what I’ve come up with. In about 15% of games, it can win on turn 2 if you play very aggressively. It combos out on turn 3 in about 50% of draws on the play. On turn 4 or turn 3 if you’re on the draw, it will nearly always win:
Hunting around for deals, I was able to put it together for $220.
It gets rid of Elvish Visionary, which I have found to be in practice, the weakest card in the list. Drawing cards is more than taken care of by the rest of the list, and Visionary just doesn’t produce enough mana to justify itself. Eternal Witness is a must, as it is a tutorable second Glimpse of Nature, and you don’t really have the full combo until you have two Glimpses of Nature going.
I don’t own any fetchlands, but I’d play with 8 of them to thin out draws and make the combo more consistent if I had them.
I still don’t have a sideboard figured out. I’d be curious to see what people think. This is easily the most powerful deck I’ve ever owned.
everyone has their opinions on what is optimal. Using the site I use to find prices your list came to 250, which his right on the dot for what i deem acceptable in terms of budget.
tbh my list is actually a different kind of elf combo list. Your list is almost completely dependent on glimpse. Mine has the combo, but uses more cradle effects and can go aggro with the lords as well. I prefer my list, but thats not to say yours isnt good, im sure its fine.
@Ziveeman-
Thats just me not typing my full thought process. I was still in the mind set of sideboard and Ingot chewer =/.
The real hidden strength of that list is the second Regal Force. It can win games tutoring into a Regal Force, drawing 7+, playing out a hand full of creatures and then playing a second Regal Force for around 14 or so more cards. Not drawing Glimpse is surprisingly not a problem.
I have played with 2 regal force before and I remember enjoying it. I think we ended up taking out the extra one for space as it was not needed, just nice to have.
Dredge is probably the best there. Others that are close to it would be elf ball and goblin storm, though I have since created a new list for the goblin storm deck. It is more expensive, but still within the budget and much better than the list in the article.
Dredge is probably the best there. Others that are close to it would be elf ball and goblin storm, though I have since created a new list for the goblin storm deck. It is more expensive, but still within the budget and much better than the list in the article.
I am thinking of taking out 1 bushwacker for another gitaxian probe, but that's just a move of preference.
dredge is not hard to play, but it is hard to master. I say this in the sense that you will win games often, but winning matches is different, since you have to learn how to play around graveyard hate. Also, knowing when and for what to cabal therapy is difficult as well. If you can get past these things you should be ok.
I am thinking of taking out 1 bushwacker for another gitaxian probe, but that's just a move of preference.
dredge is not hard to play, but it is hard to master. I say this in the sense that you will win games often, but winning matches is different, since you have to learn how to play around graveyard hate. Also, knowing when and for what to cabal therapy is difficult as well. If you can get past these things you should be ok.
Hmm, I think I'm trying to decide between that goblin storm deck, the dredge you posted in the article, or the tendrils list you posted in the article. Would you still probaly recommend thd dredge list even over the new goblin storm list?
Also as a note to NoLifeKing if you are thinking of starting out dredge, which I personally find is both a load of fun and very strong, be sure not only to check out the dredge primer in the legacy section but also the variation articles linked in it. There's actually quite a bit of variation based of of SB, DR targets and such regardless of LED or LED-less.
@spooky: Great article. I really enjoyed reading it. Of the three Storm decks (Sac Land Tendrils, Springtide, and Goblin Storm), which one is the fastest and which one is the most resilient and which one is your favorite? I am guessing your favorite is the updated Goblin Storm deck which includes Burning Wish and Lotus Petal.
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@spooky: Great article. I really enjoyed reading it. Of the three Storm decks (Sac Land Tendrils, Springtide, and Goblin Storm), which one is the fastest and which one is the most resilient and which one is your favorite? I am guessing your favorite is the updated Goblin Storm deck which includes Burning Wish and Lotus Petal.
Thanks!
You are correct, I really enjoy the goblin storm list and it is certainly my favorite of the 3. Second would have to be Sac land tendrils, as it is also very powerful, just not quite as fast.
I have been playing since 1995, and this article is just how I love it. You really nailed it. Thx! By the way I have ordered all the cards I need to build all decks at the same time! I have all the cards, but some cards are used i several deck, so I got to have several copies! I do not want to have proxies, because I have started teaching other about the game. Thx again!
Say you are playing a combo deck that can win on turn zero like Belcher or Spanish Inquisition. You shuffle up, draw your seven and see an opener that can do just that. What are the chances that your opponent will have any interaction whatsoever? [...] The only card that could possibly be used to stop you is the infamous Force of Will
Well...there are also Misdirection, Surgical Extraction, Foil, and Disrupting Shoal, although the latter two have barely been played, and Surgical Extraction isn't an answer 100% of the time.
I'm looking at the Moldy Cheerios list, and I keep running hands of it, and it seems to have serious consistency issues (Not drawing out/winning till turn 6-7). What am I doing wrong, and what changes would you make to the original posted list?
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Riposa, riposa in pace
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Ecco il mio ultimo incantesimo
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Whew, it's been a while since I thought about that list. The most I can say as far as consistency goes is that you need to play it kind of like belcher. When I play belcher I never keep a hand that does not have either a belcher, Burning wish or empty the warrens. Much in the same way, I never keep a cheerios hand that does not have one of its draw engines. beyond that, there is not much else I can tell you. Gitaxian Probe and Noxious Revival are both options. Beyond pure speculation though, I would try and take discussion on the deck to the thread dedicated to it.
4 Summoner’s Pact
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Heritage Druid
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Priest of Titania
2 Regal Force
1 Eternal Witness
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Emrakul
1 Pendlehaven
1 Gaea’s Cradle
Hunting around for deals, I was able to put it together for $220.
It gets rid of Elvish Visionary, which I have found to be in practice, the weakest card in the list. Drawing cards is more than taken care of by the rest of the list, and Visionary just doesn’t produce enough mana to justify itself. Eternal Witness is a must, as it is a tutorable second Glimpse of Nature, and you don’t really have the full combo until you have two Glimpses of Nature going.
I don’t own any fetchlands, but I’d play with 8 of them to thin out draws and make the combo more consistent if I had them.
I still don’t have a sideboard figured out. I’d be curious to see what people think. This is easily the most powerful deck I’ve ever owned.
Why doesn't Hypergenesis autolose to chalice/trinisphere? Chalice @ 0 counters Hypergenesis and Trinisphere forces you to pay 3 mana for Hypergensis. Well, it's not necessary autolose for Trinisphere, but paying six mana seems bad. Game 2/3 is obviously different but Chalice is more of a maindeck card in the decks that run it, so I would imagine that Hypergenesis would autolose game 1 if an opponent catches onto what you're doing.
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everyone has their opinions on what is optimal. Using the site I use to find prices your list came to 250, which his right on the dot for what i deem acceptable in terms of budget.
tbh my list is actually a different kind of elf combo list. Your list is almost completely dependent on glimpse. Mine has the combo, but uses more cradle effects and can go aggro with the lords as well. I prefer my list, but thats not to say yours isnt good, im sure its fine.
@Ziveeman-
Thats just me not typing my full thought process. I was still in the mind set of sideboard and Ingot chewer =/.
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We're you going to post it?
Also, is dredge hard to play?
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=931978
I am thinking of taking out 1 bushwacker for another gitaxian probe, but that's just a move of preference.
dredge is not hard to play, but it is hard to master. I say this in the sense that you will win games often, but winning matches is different, since you have to learn how to play around graveyard hate. Also, knowing when and for what to cabal therapy is difficult as well. If you can get past these things you should be ok.
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Hmm, I think I'm trying to decide between that goblin storm deck, the dredge you posted in the article, or the tendrils list you posted in the article. Would you still probaly recommend thd dredge list even over the new goblin storm list?
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how is the relevant to the discussion of the thread again?
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Modern
RUBW Affinity
BGR Midrange
UWR Control
RG Titan Shift
RW Burn
GW Bogles
G Tron
Thanks!
You are correct, I really enjoy the goblin storm list and it is certainly my favorite of the 3. Second would have to be Sac land tendrils, as it is also very powerful, just not quite as fast.
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Well...there are also Misdirection, Surgical Extraction, Foil, and Disrupting Shoal, although the latter two have barely been played, and Surgical Extraction isn't an answer 100% of the time.
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Burn
Casual
Unicorns!!
Every time I see someone with an "I'd That" shirt, I die a little bit inside. Come on, guys.
Nel racconto che ho scritto, puoi volare in libertà
Ecco il mio ultimo incantesimo
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Riposa in pace, Kitzu...
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=370173
I know a lot of people have been using scapegoat as well, but I don't know just how good it is. Sorry I couldn't be more helpful. =/
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