I thought so. That's green at its best, from both a flavor and functional aspect.
Muscle check? Its got 4 power. Check.
Cost Efficiency check? Its got 4 power, haste, and 3 toughness for 2GG. Check.
Resiliency check? Play two weenies and all copies of it rise from the grave. Check.
Flavor check? Nature's vengeance is unrelenting, unpredictable, unstoppable. Check.
Every now and then Green does get something to get around the cheap removal flying around without violating its flavor nature.
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Yes, vengevine is cool and all, but the days of G/W mirari's wake and Armadillo cloak are long gone and almost nothing viable in enchantress has been reprinted in legal sets for modern. Not so strong in standard either, although standard is pretty cool in its own right.
See, it wouldn't be so bad if green was the offensive color while blue was the defensive color, but it clearly isn't that way since blue has itself been getting plenty of aggressive cards (Delver, Snapcaster, Fae)
If blue is able to get both excellent reactive cards and proactive cards, green just looks abysmal in comparison when it is only allowed to be offensive. Its only defense lies in its creatures themselves, which are certainly not very reliable and are not even usable against certain matchups.
I agree that the one major flaw in green is the lack of dealing with instants and sorceries. Once this problem is addressed, then green may start seeing some more competitive play in eternal formats, which are filled with instant/sorcery based combos.
last time i checked maverik and zoo did exist. Also jund in modern. vintage doesn't count because decks are like 50% the same in that format anyways. Also in legacy blame the duals. Any deck just about can play 5 colors with almost no draw back.
"Cannot be countered" should get its own keyword and be put on 15-20% of all Green cards in each set. It gives answers to counters of which we have very few as is.
I also completely agree with his point on hexproof. Green creatures are meant to fight. They should be able to stick around and fight.
Let me guess you want an aggressive creature that has hexproof and can't be countered. How about we also throw in regenerate for good measure...oh yeah that exist it is called thrun, the last troll. Every set has a few hate cards for control, people just don't know how to play magic well enough to understand pre-sideboarding for certain decks.
if 20% of green creature had can't be countered than control would essentially die. Counterspells are already quite worthless and they keep getting worse and worse.
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Let me guess you want an aggressive creature that has hexproof and can't be countered. How about we also throw in regenerate for good measure...oh yeah that exist it is called thrun, the last troll. Every set has a few hate cards for control, people just don't know how to play magic well enough to understand pre-sideboarding for certain decks.
if 20% of green creature had can't be countered than control would essentially die. Counterspells are already quite worthless and they keep getting worse and worse.
Thrun is a solid choice to bring in against control in the right deck, but you don't see it as the go-to anti-control card that every green deck throws in it's sideboard (or maindeck even).
Seriously though, the only two ways to improve green are either to add counterspells, or to nerf that imbalanced colour that is white. I know which would be better.
last time i checked maverik and zoo did exist. Also jund in modern. vintage doesn't count because decks are like 50% the same in that format anyways. Also in legacy blame the duals. Any deck just about can play 5 colors with almost no draw back.
Let me guess you want an aggressive creature that has hexproof and can't be countered. How about we also throw in regenerate for good measure...oh yeah that exist it is called thrun, the last troll. Every set has a few hate cards for control, people just don't know how to play magic well enough to understand pre-sideboarding for certain decks.
if 20% of green creature had can't be countered than control would essentially die. Counterspells are already quite worthless and they keep getting worse and worse.
We're saying that the things that make thrun good shouldn't be on only one card per block, at legendary mythic rare level to boot.
The only reason counter spells exist is to balance combo decks. Control players hate to admit that all the fun in a game of permission magic is had by the control player basically torturing their opponent. That's why WOTC has been neutering counter spells, because it turns all the cool interesting cards that we play the game for into blanks, defeating the whole purpose of a CCG.
To me, counterspells just feel like a very dumb, bruteforce type of card interaction. If I had my way, cheap counter spells would be type specific, ie counter target sorcery, counter target instant, etc. and the generic counters would be expensive, 4 mana at least. "but then blue won't have as many tourney level cards anymore!" Good, then they'd actually be the same as the other colors, and they'd actually have to think about what counter spell their deck needs, instead of 4 mana leak 3 dissipate done.
Love the article and agree with most of it. I don't think green needs removal, but lets say they did put one in beast within is a good example and i think something like Swords to Plowshares would be a green removal spell.
Love the article and agree with most of it. I don't think green needs removal, but lets say they did put one in beast within is a good example and i think something like Swords to Plowshares would be a green removal spell.
I think that "can't be countered" and shroud/hexproof are not the right ways to buff Green, since they decrease interactivity. Rather, Green should get more Flash, Regeneration, and Fight; abilities that protect the creatures, but do it through interaction. Flash encourages interaction by allowing creatures as combat tricks, Regeneration encourages it by forcing both players to pay attention to the mana open, and Fight forces players to have their creatures interact. Plus, all three abilities are very flavorful.
While there is also a definite flavor identity crisis for Green, I think the article's author was exaggerating how much if affects Green's cards. Red has a VERY strong and well-defined identity, yet it's the most one-dimensional color in the game.
I think green creatures are in a good place nowadays for the most part. Vengevine, Acidic Slime, Thrun, Strangleroot Geist, Sylvan Ranger and the like are all fun, exciting and playable. There's a few multicoloured cards that could stand to see 1G or GG reprints in my opinion (Qasali Pridemage). The key thing is to not focus on size. The key thing is to get Green creatures DOING STUFF. Creatures have to do stuff to cut it nowadays. Big and dumb has to be really absurd to cut it.
The spell side is a bit more problematic. It's generally just lands, lands, lands... did I mention lands? Green is contemplative and druidic as well and instinctive and bestial. Cards like Green Sun's Zenith, Nature's Lore and Nature's Claim are good ones. But, for goodness' sake, reprint Harmonize please. I can't stand Green card draw always specifying that it always only grabs creatures and lands. It's asinine and annoying, and makes you want to not play spells. Which you should want to do. raw, sorcery speed card draw with GG in it's cost should be a-ok in Green. I would like to see Regrowth reprinted as well.
Whoever said that Red is getting the shaft bigtime is absolutely correct. I mean, what does it have? Burn and little men. That is it. It means you get to play RDW. And that's it. Red is fine enough power level wise but goddamnit is Red ever boring versatility wise. And it just got a great card (Snapcaster) stolen from it. Black could perhaps use a wee bit of love too. It has all kinds of useful stuff in it's pie but that useful stuff needs to see print. Not bad demons with ludicrous drawbacks.
The Borg aren't green. Q said specifically they were only interested in technology. They took pains to assimilate Picard just to show him what it was like to live as a Borg.
It's only later that they became a virus themselves. I'd say it was around the time of Voyager, which, depending on which Trekkie you ask, is either the worst spinoff or second-worst to Enterprise.
My biggest issues with green are this:
Flying Green is given anti-flying to balance green's poor flying. Green shouldn't have any creature removal that doesn't risk its own creatures, keeping with its Darwinist philosophy. (And no color should do stuff it can't normally do just as hosers. A red card saying "Destroy target white or blue enchantment." shouldn't exist; a red card saying "~ deals X damage to each player, where X is the number of enchantments that player controls." should exist.) Also, bees are definitely green. Possibly green/white. Hummingbirds fit this as well. All in all, Hurricane feels red, and Plummet feels black. We could complete the cycle by giving green "Counter target creature spell if it has flying." and "Exile target creature with flying.", or we could just admit it's bleed and move on.
(For the record, ghosts flying is more Halloween, and vampires flying was how Hollywood avoided having to pay Stoker's estate; they also made Orlok ugly while Dracula was a seducer.)
Artifact interaction in the last couple blocks I get that Scars was on Mirrodin and blah blah blah, but green in the original Mirrodin was mostly artifact hate. Green metalcraft and splicers really shouldn't exist.
But Innistrad is not an artifact block. Or, for that matter, a tribal set: Though it has more tribal themes than most blocks, it's nothing compared to Lorwyn or Onslaught (or even Mercadian Masques) in tribal mechanics. Yet, five artifacts want me to play human. Problem is, while humans are in all five colors, they're most concentrated in green, since green has humans and werewolves in large numbers. Granted, Heavy Mattock is strictly worse than Mirran swords, but it's also at common.
Critically, of every last card I just complained about for green/artifact synergy, only Ezuri's Brigade is rare.
I feel that while modality should be in each color, it should be primarily green/blue. Blue because blue is intelligent; green because green is adaptive.
(Red/black can get "opponent chooses" modality, though; this can be flavored out as "Unless you let me do X, I'll rip out your spine!" White seems to me the least modal color, just because it's the most dogmatic.)
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
(Red/black can get "opponent chooses" modality, though; this can be flavored out as "Unless you let me do X, I'll rip out your spine!" White seems to me the least modal color, just because it's the most dogmatic.)
Only one problem with this: Choices given to the opponent usually suck, especially the way Red does them. Black is okay, since its choices (Sacrifice a creature, discard a card) are identical in type, but Red typically gives two choices that are very distinct and that don't work together much at all.
In fact, the most powerful cards that give choices to the opponent in Magic are Blue (Fact or Fiction, Intuition, Gifts Ungiven), because they allow deck-building to reduce the number of choices.
But yeah, Green needs a lot more modal cards. Acidic Slime is a definite step in the right direction (As has been stated many times).
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My biggest problem with most green philosophy is this: spend vital early turns ramping into huge late game threats that can easily be dealt with.
Green's biggest weakness is its biggest strength: its creatures. While there are aggressively costed creatures in green (Tarmogoyf) the great majority of their creatures are big, splashy and expensive. So it's necessary to spend your early-mid game building up resources in order to cast those huge Krosan Cloudscrapers and Tornado Elementals.
After you've done all that work to cast those creatures, the colour doesn't have any way to support those creatures. So you spend your whole game ramping into a huge creature that the control player across from you Swords to Plowshares, or Terrors, or Capsizes for much less resources.
Undying was a great addition to Green (not so much Blue), especially paired with the Fight mechanic, which I think should mostly be Green and not Red's. Fight really gives green a way to deal with opposing creatures in a flavourful way.
The other thing I'd really like to see is more Regrowth/Eternal Witness effects on Green cards. This highlights the circle of life, which no colour really capitalizes on and is so incredibly flavourful with Nature and Green as a colour. Genesis is a great example, Undying is good too, Oversold Cemetery should be a green card.
Decomposition in nature could be ported into Green with effects like "Whenever a creature you control dies, return another target [creature] card in your graveyard to your hand."
I think by adding that type of effect to Green's slice of the pie, its cards would be less bark and more bight.
Capitalize on the circle of life, and you breath some life into the basically dead colour that is Green.
My biggest problem with most green philosophy is this: spend vital early turns ramping into huge late game threats that can easily be dealt with.
Green's biggest weakness is its biggest strength: its creatures. While there are aggressively costed creatures in green (Tarmogoyf) the great majority of their creatures are big, splashy and expensive. So it's necessary to spend your early-mid game building up resources in order to cast those huge Krosan Cloudscrapers and Tornado Elementals.
After you've done all that work to cast those creatures, the colour doesn't have any way to support those creatures. So you spend your whole game ramping into a huge creature that the control player across from you Swords to Plowshares, or Terrors, or Capsizes for much less resources.
Undying was a great addition to Green (not so much Blue), especially paired with the Fight mechanic, which I think should mostly be Green and not Red's. Fight really gives green a way to deal with opposing creatures in a flavourful way.
The other thing I'd really like to see is more Regrowth/Eternal Witness effects on Green cards. This highlights the circle of life, which no colour really capitalizes on and is so incredibly flavourful with Nature and Green as a colour. Genesis is a great example, Undying is good too, Oversold Cemetery should be a green card.
Decomposition in nature could be ported into Green with effects like "Whenever a creature you control dies, return another target [creature] card in your graveyard to your hand."
I think by adding that type of effect to Green's slice of the pie, its cards would be less bark and more bight.
Capitalize on the circle of life, and you breath some life into the basically dead colour that is Green.
If you were talking about this back in 2006 I'd agree with you, but as of now there is a huge influx of Shroud and Hexproof in green. As for Value? Primeval Titan, Inkmoth Nexus, and Kessig Wolf Run would like to say 'Sup dog, I heard you liked card advantage.' Thrun has started to hit standard due to his hexyproofy and regenning. You can't overflood the market with them but the ones that do have shroud and hexproof make a difference, Thrun and Dungrove Elder were huge just a few months ago. You claim Green is a 'dead' color but look at what deck took Worlds for 2011.
Path to Exile could be colorshifted to green, but more expensive. Like how Natural Snare in duel masters shows a creature being turned into a land.
I would love to see green with better anti-magic spells. If they can deal with enchantments well, why can't they deal with the magic from instants and sorceries? Give green a Negate is what I'm saying. If they are going to be the creature color, make it more apparent by showing how they hate on noncreature cards.
Green is the most boring color in Magic. If there weren't cheap removal spells, every deck would be "ramp ramp ramp LOLFATTYUDIE". At least the other colors are somewhat interactive.
I hate playing with or against green and I hope it goes back to being completely unplayable after Prime Time rotates out in M13. I also hate playing against the kind of people who like to play green: whiny babies who cry about removal and counterspells (read page 1 of this thread if you don't believe me), whom Wizards has attempted to please by creating ever-more-powerful creatures.
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Flame infraction. Mocking green is fine. Mocking the posters is not. -Woap
If you were talking about this back in 2006 I'd agree with you, but as of now there is a huge influx of Shroud and Hexproof in green. As for Value? Primeval Titan, Inkmoth Nexus, and Kessig Wolf Run would like to say 'Sup dog, I heard you liked card advantage.' Thrun has started to hit standard due to his hexyproofy and regenning. You can't overflood the market with them but the ones that do have shroud and hexproof make a difference, Thrun and Dungrove Elder were huge just a few months ago. You claim Green is a 'dead' color but look at what deck took Worlds for 2011.
I didn't actually want my post to focus on the Shroud/Hexproof part of Green as I don't think it is the right answer to fixing the colour. I really wanted to highlight how I think the circle of life (battlefied -> graveyard -> resource/hand) would really benefit green. Having more creatures that don't simply die to removal (Vengevine, Reassembling Skeleton) would be really great in green. I was trying to hash out a decent keyword ability for green last night after posting that.
Fertilize: Exile two cards from your graveyard, return [card name] from your graveyard to your hand.
Or even, [card name] from your graveyard to the battlefield tapped.
Though entering the battlefield tapped is quickly becoming a zombie ability.
I thought so. That's green at its best, from both a flavor and functional aspect.
Muscle check? Its got 4 power. Check.
Cost Efficiency check? Its got 4 power, haste, and 3 toughness for 2GG. Check.
Resiliency check? Play two weenies and all copies of it rise from the grave. Check.
Flavor check? Nature's vengeance is unrelenting, unpredictable, unstoppable. Check.
Every now and then Green does get something to get around the cheap removal flying around without violating its flavor nature.
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If blue is able to get both excellent reactive cards and proactive cards, green just looks abysmal in comparison when it is only allowed to be offensive. Its only defense lies in its creatures themselves, which are certainly not very reliable and are not even usable against certain matchups.
last time i checked maverik and zoo did exist. Also jund in modern. vintage doesn't count because decks are like 50% the same in that format anyways. Also in legacy blame the duals. Any deck just about can play 5 colors with almost no draw back.
Let me guess you want an aggressive creature that has hexproof and can't be countered. How about we also throw in regenerate for good measure...oh yeah that exist it is called thrun, the last troll. Every set has a few hate cards for control, people just don't know how to play magic well enough to understand pre-sideboarding for certain decks.
if 20% of green creature had can't be countered than control would essentially die. Counterspells are already quite worthless and they keep getting worse and worse.
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Thrun is a solid choice to bring in against control in the right deck, but you don't see it as the go-to anti-control card that every green deck throws in it's sideboard (or maindeck even).
Seriously though, the only two ways to improve green are either to add counterspells, or to nerf that imbalanced colour that is white. I know which would be better.
We're saying that the things that make thrun good shouldn't be on only one card per block, at legendary mythic rare level to boot.
The only reason counter spells exist is to balance combo decks. Control players hate to admit that all the fun in a game of permission magic is had by the control player basically torturing their opponent. That's why WOTC has been neutering counter spells, because it turns all the cool interesting cards that we play the game for into blanks, defeating the whole purpose of a CCG.
To me, counterspells just feel like a very dumb, bruteforce type of card interaction. If I had my way, cheap counter spells would be type specific, ie counter target sorcery, counter target instant, etc. and the generic counters would be expensive, 4 mana at least. "but then blue won't have as many tourney level cards anymore!" Good, then they'd actually be the same as the other colors, and they'd actually have to think about what counter spell their deck needs, instead of 4 mana leak 3 dissipate done.
Swords to Plowshares does not belong in green.
While there is also a definite flavor identity crisis for Green, I think the article's author was exaggerating how much if affects Green's cards. Red has a VERY strong and well-defined identity, yet it's the most one-dimensional color in the game.
Every time Wizards reads one of these comments, they add another ability to the next Jace.
Something tells me you didn't mean to say it that way.;)
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The spell side is a bit more problematic. It's generally just lands, lands, lands... did I mention lands? Green is contemplative and druidic as well and instinctive and bestial. Cards like Green Sun's Zenith, Nature's Lore and Nature's Claim are good ones. But, for goodness' sake, reprint Harmonize please. I can't stand Green card draw always specifying that it always only grabs creatures and lands. It's asinine and annoying, and makes you want to not play spells. Which you should want to do. raw, sorcery speed card draw with GG in it's cost should be a-ok in Green. I would like to see Regrowth reprinted as well.
Whoever said that Red is getting the shaft bigtime is absolutely correct. I mean, what does it have? Burn and little men. That is it. It means you get to play RDW. And that's it. Red is fine enough power level wise but goddamnit is Red ever boring versatility wise. And it just got a great card (Snapcaster) stolen from it. Black could perhaps use a wee bit of love too. It has all kinds of useful stuff in it's pie but that useful stuff needs to see print. Not bad demons with ludicrous drawbacks.
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It's only later that they became a virus themselves. I'd say it was around the time of Voyager, which, depending on which Trekkie you ask, is either the worst spinoff or second-worst to Enterprise.
My biggest issues with green are this:
Flying Green is given anti-flying to balance green's poor flying. Green shouldn't have any creature removal that doesn't risk its own creatures, keeping with its Darwinist philosophy. (And no color should do stuff it can't normally do just as hosers. A red card saying "Destroy target white or blue enchantment." shouldn't exist; a red card saying "~ deals X damage to each player, where X is the number of enchantments that player controls." should exist.) Also, bees are definitely green. Possibly green/white. Hummingbirds fit this as well. All in all, Hurricane feels red, and Plummet feels black. We could complete the cycle by giving green "Counter target creature spell if it has flying." and "Exile target creature with flying.", or we could just admit it's bleed and move on.
(For the record, ghosts flying is more Halloween, and vampires flying was how Hollywood avoided having to pay Stoker's estate; they also made Orlok ugly while Dracula was a seducer.)
Artifact interaction in the last couple blocks I get that Scars was on Mirrodin and blah blah blah, but green in the original Mirrodin was mostly artifact hate. Green metalcraft and splicers really shouldn't exist.
But Innistrad is not an artifact block. Or, for that matter, a tribal set: Though it has more tribal themes than most blocks, it's nothing compared to Lorwyn or Onslaught (or even Mercadian Masques) in tribal mechanics. Yet, five artifacts want me to play human. Problem is, while humans are in all five colors, they're most concentrated in green, since green has humans and werewolves in large numbers. Granted, Heavy Mattock is strictly worse than Mirran swords, but it's also at common.
Critically, of every last card I just complained about for green/artifact synergy, only Ezuri's Brigade is rare.
I feel that while modality should be in each color, it should be primarily green/blue. Blue because blue is intelligent; green because green is adaptive.
(Red/black can get "opponent chooses" modality, though; this can be flavored out as "Unless you let me do X, I'll rip out your spine!" White seems to me the least modal color, just because it's the most dogmatic.)
On phasing:
Only one problem with this: Choices given to the opponent usually suck, especially the way Red does them. Black is okay, since its choices (Sacrifice a creature, discard a card) are identical in type, but Red typically gives two choices that are very distinct and that don't work together much at all.
In fact, the most powerful cards that give choices to the opponent in Magic are Blue (Fact or Fiction, Intuition, Gifts Ungiven), because they allow deck-building to reduce the number of choices.
But yeah, Green needs a lot more modal cards. Acidic Slime is a definite step in the right direction (As has been stated many times).
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Green's biggest weakness is its biggest strength: its creatures. While there are aggressively costed creatures in green (Tarmogoyf) the great majority of their creatures are big, splashy and expensive. So it's necessary to spend your early-mid game building up resources in order to cast those huge Krosan Cloudscrapers and Tornado Elementals.
After you've done all that work to cast those creatures, the colour doesn't have any way to support those creatures. So you spend your whole game ramping into a huge creature that the control player across from you Swords to Plowshares, or Terrors, or Capsizes for much less resources.
What green really needs is protection for its creatures (Asceticism/Hexproof), more aggressively costed creatures (Vengevine) and more resilience (Vengevine/Genesis).
Undying was a great addition to Green (not so much Blue), especially paired with the Fight mechanic, which I think should mostly be Green and not Red's. Fight really gives green a way to deal with opposing creatures in a flavourful way.
The other thing I'd really like to see is more Regrowth/Eternal Witness effects on Green cards. This highlights the circle of life, which no colour really capitalizes on and is so incredibly flavourful with Nature and Green as a colour. Genesis is a great example, Undying is good too, Oversold Cemetery should be a green card.
Decomposition in nature could be ported into Green with effects like "Whenever a creature you control dies, return another target [creature] card in your graveyard to your hand."
I think by adding that type of effect to Green's slice of the pie, its cards would be less bark and more bight.
Capitalize on the circle of life, and you breath some life into the basically dead colour that is Green.
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If you were talking about this back in 2006 I'd agree with you, but as of now there is a huge influx of Shroud and Hexproof in green. As for Value? Primeval Titan, Inkmoth Nexus, and Kessig Wolf Run would like to say 'Sup dog, I heard you liked card advantage.' Thrun has started to hit standard due to his hexyproofy and regenning. You can't overflood the market with them but the ones that do have shroud and hexproof make a difference, Thrun and Dungrove Elder were huge just a few months ago. You claim Green is a 'dead' color but look at what deck took Worlds for 2011.
I would love to see green with better anti-magic spells. If they can deal with enchantments well, why can't they deal with the magic from instants and sorceries? Give green a Negate is what I'm saying. If they are going to be the creature color, make it more apparent by showing how they hate on noncreature cards.
Green is the most boring color in Magic. If there weren't cheap removal spells, every deck would be "ramp ramp ramp LOLFATTYUDIE". At least the other colors are somewhat interactive.
I hate playing with or against green and I hope it goes back to being completely unplayable after Prime Time rotates out in M13. I also hate playing against the kind of people who like to play green: whiny babies who cry about removal and counterspells (read page 1 of this thread if you don't believe me), whom Wizards has attempted to please by creating ever-more-powerful creatures.
Every time I look at Cancel, I die a little inside.
Flame infraction. Mocking green is fine. Mocking the posters is not. -Woap
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I didn't actually want my post to focus on the Shroud/Hexproof part of Green as I don't think it is the right answer to fixing the colour. I really wanted to highlight how I think the circle of life (battlefied -> graveyard -> resource/hand) would really benefit green. Having more creatures that don't simply die to removal (Vengevine, Reassembling Skeleton) would be really great in green. I was trying to hash out a decent keyword ability for green last night after posting that.
Fertilize: Exile two cards from your graveyard, return [card name] from your graveyard to your hand.
Or even, [card name] from your graveyard to the battlefield tapped.
Though entering the battlefield tapped is quickly becoming a zombie ability.
Multiplayer:
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Cycling
Crush of Wurms
Zoo
Immortal Coil
Control
Reanimator
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Cruel Ascension
Landfall
Esper Spirits/Tokens
Phantom Vigor
Not Explicitly Multiplayer:
Allies
Bant
Artifacts