Q: So I have Laboratory Maniac on my side of the field in play, I have 5 cards left in my library. Is it legal to dredge a Golgari Grave-Troll, and if I do, will I win the game?
And even if the Grave-Troll was a Stinkweed Imp, you'd still need another instance of attempting to draw a card in order to actually win the game.
Official tournament policy (not the comprehensive rules, you won't find this there) on these DFCs if that naming the reverse side of a DFC is sufficient to identify it. Since there's literally nothing Nevermore can do to Howlpack Alpha (the only thing it stops is casting, and Howlpack Alpha is the name of a card that can't be cast), naming either side of the DFC will ban that card from being cast.
This seems to contradict the Innistrad FAQ, and a local level 2 rules guru has told me that unlike split cards, naming the flipped side of a flipped card or the back face of a DFC is not a valid shortcut for Meddling Mage. Did I miss a policy revision?
Quote from Nevermore FAQ »
If you want to name a double-faced card, remember to name the front face of that card. (The back face can't be cast anyway.)
This seems to contradict the Innistrad FAQ, and a local level 2 rules guru has told me that unlike split cards, naming the flipped side of a flipped card or the back face of a DFC is not a valid shortcut for Meddling Mage. Did I miss a policy revision?
Read the answer: This is a tournament shortcut, not part of the rules. The FAQ has the rules answer; we're answering the tournament shortcut involving naming a card where naming the other face/flipped side never has any effect at all.
"Sufficiently advanced experience is indistinguishable from clairvoyance." -Carsten
"Ah those eyes, those horrible creepy eyes!" -Chaosof99
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justice must always be served and corruption must always be opposed."
Go read! I am one of the three authors of Cranial Insertion.
But seriously, if you can't remember "Woapalanne", just call me Eli.
Just answer this: Do the rules allow a player to name the night-side of a DFC when an effect asks that player to name a card?
In your answer, please act as if no such thing as tournament shortcuts.
Yes:
711.8. If an effect instructs a player to name a card, the player may name either face of a double-faced card but not both.
For reference, the actual quote from the MTR on this:
Quote from MTR 3.6 »
Identifying a double-faced or flip card by either name on it is acceptable, as long as the ability that requires the name does not refer to an object on the battlefield.
Those two quotes do seem to be in direct conflict with each other. The MTR trumps the comp rules, though:
Quote from MTR Introduction »
Information in this document may contradict (or have information not contained in) the Magic: The Gathering Comprehensive Rules. In such cases, this document takes precedence.
The comp rules quote is still relevant in the case of cards like Runed Halo, where it is referring to an object on the battlefield - one Halo can't give you protection from both sides.
You are making this unnecessarily confusing. Just answer this: Do the rules allow a player to name the night-side of a DFC when an effect asks that player to name a card?
In your answer, please act as if no such thing as tournament shortcuts.
Here you go:
Quote from Comprehensive Rules »
711.8. If an effect instructs a player to name a card, the player may name either face of a double-faced card but not both.
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Right-on about deathtouch and Ixidron. Lifelink, wither, infect, etc. aren't taken into account when assigning combat damage because only deathtouch has that exception.
Alright, like I thought. Then let's take another look at the original question:
Q: I cast Nevermore and name Howlpack Alpha, because I lost to it last game. A little while later I realize that's pointless - you can't even cast Howlpack Alpha! Am I in trouble if my opponent tries to cast Mayor of Avabruck?
Suppose the opponent wants to cast the Mayor and a judge is called to resolve this situation. What is the judge supposed to do? Try to read minds and find out whether or not it was clear to all players that a shortcut was taken?
Being psychic has nothing to do with it (though it helps immensely in DQ investigations). MTR 3.6 says naming either side is acceptable. There is also literally nothing that Nevermore can do to Howlpack Alpha, it would just add "cannot be cast" to a literally uncastable thing.
As lifelink, wither, infect ; anything that adds something if the "thing" deals damage , not combat damage only.
Lifelink, Wither and Infect are not relevant when assigning combat damage. Those abilities are among those that are relevant when the damage is dealt. The only major abilities that are relevant to assigning combat damage are Deathtouch and Trample. There are others like "super trample" from Thorn Elemental.
Suppose the opponent wants to cast the Mayor and a judge is called to resolve this situation. What is the judge supposed to do? Try to read minds and find out whether or not it was clear to all players that a shortcut was taken?
Brian already answered this specific case, but speaking generally: the Tournament Rules define specific "shortcuts" which are assumed to be in use unless the players explicitly say otherwise. This avoids the mind-reading problem (and the shortcuts that are defined generally line up closely with how players play anyway -- for example, saying "go" is defined to mean that you pass until your opponent has priority in your end step, which is basically how people play that regardless).
For a deathtouch and trample creature, does the attacking player have to assign only 1 damage each of the blocking creatures or can he/she assign all the damage to the creatures for some reason?
For a deathtouch and trample creature, does the attacking player have to assign only 1 damage each of the blocking creatures or can he/she assign all the damage to the creatures for some reason?
When you're attacking with a trample creature, you can always assign more than lethal damage to a blocking creature. Tournament shortcuts always assume that you're maximizing the amount of damage you deal to the defending player/planeswalker unless you state otherwise.
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707.10. If a face-down permanent becomes a copy of another permanent, its copiable values become the copiable values of that permanent, as modified by its face-down status. Its characteristics therefore remain the same: the characteristics listed by the ability or rules that allowed it to be turned face down. However, if it is turned face up, its copiable values become the values it copied from the other permanent. See rule 706.3.
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Why is the face-down creature not a copy of the Essence of the Wild? Why does EotW treat a morpher cast face-down differently from a normal vanilla 2/2 creature?
Because of the following rule (see the third and fourth examples)...
706.3. The copy‘s copiable values become the copied information, as modified by the copy‘s status (see rule 110.6). Objects that copy the object will use the new copiable values.
The following also helps...
707.2a If a face-up permanent is turned face down by a spell or ability, it becomes a 2/2 face-down creature with no text, no name, no subtypes, no expansion symbol, and no mana cost. These values are the copiable values of that object‘s characteristics.
The face-down creature does actually becom a copy of Essence of the Wild, but those characteristics are only applied when the creature is face up. When it's face-down, it is simply a 2/2. The rest of the answer gets into that element, but a face-down permanent is always a 2/2 vanilla creature (unless the spell or ability that turned the object face down set those to something else).
So if I actually wanted a Nevermore set to Howlpack Alpha, would I need to name "Howlpack Alpha, not using the tournament shortcut associated naming the back faces of cards that are not currently permanents", thus giving my opponent rules knowledge he might not already have?
EDIT: Actually, this isn't a tournament shortcut, or at least is not listed in the shortcuts section. It's listed separately (thanks to whoever posted that it was item 3.6 -- I wouldn't have found it otherwise). What as a player do I need to do if I want to set Nevermore to Howlpack Alpha?
So if I actually wanted a Nevermore set to Howlpack Alpha, would I need to name "Howlpack Alpha, not using the tournament shortcut associated naming the back faces of cards that are not currently permanents", thus giving my opponent rules knowledge he might not already have?
What, precisely, are you trying to accomplish with such a situation?
As is "What is a man? A miserable little pile of secrets!" The quotes are from several Castlevania games, but SotN is my favorite, and thus the one I enjoyed seeing more.
What, precisely, are you trying to accomplish with such a situation?
Maybe this is a bit dirty (OK it definitely is), but I'd be attempting to legally make my opponent think he can't cast Mayor of Avabruck. A possible reason not to simply name "Mayor of Avabruck" is that I have one of my own.
Much like pretending I'm deciding not to block with my Carrion Feeder -- I'm not going to break a rule, I'm not misrepresenting the game state. If the rules guys think that a play allowed by the comprehensive rules shouldn't be tournament legal, ... ok, I guess
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Maybe this is a bit dirty (OK it definitely is)...
Which is precisely what I figured you intended. While misleading or even using a misunderstanding is "reasonable" (and different people will probably agree to disagree on that), it's quite another to get into semantic arguments over the name of the card which generally doesn't matter. Are there times where it matters? Yes, but this isn't one of them. (Absent something that does allow you to cast a double-faced card face down.)
Remembering the proper name of a card is not a skill that is being tested, and requiring a player to provide the exact card name is not something that is necessary. So long as the card is uniquely identified for the appropriate situation, and given the game rules state that a double-faced card is cast "sunny side up", then naming either half is sufficient for that purpose. Where it matters is for the permanent once on the battlefield, and MTR 3.6 does make for that exception.
Which is precisely what I figured you intended. While misleading or even using a misunderstanding is "reasonable" (and different people will probably agree to disagree on that), it's quite another to get into semantic arguments over the name of the card which generally doesn't matter. Are there times where it matters? Yes, but this isn't one of them. (Absent something that does allow you to cast a double-faced card face down.)
Remembering the proper name of a card is not a skill that is being tested, and requiring a player to provide the exact card name is not something that is necessary. So long as the card is uniquely identified for the appropriate situation, and given the game rules state that a double-faced card is cast "sunny side up", then naming either half is sufficient for that purpose.
I can get behind that. I don't think remembering the names of cards should be a tested skill. But knowing the rules of Magic is a tested skill -- Magic is a complicated game and wrapping your brain around that complication is part of the point. Is the name confusion problem solution worth this reduction in complexity? Maybe. Mana burn being removed and combat damage no longer stacking speak to their desire to reduce complexity where it "doesn't matter" and keep it where it "matters".
Where it matters is for the permanent once on the battlefield, and MTR 3.6 does make for that exception.
This exception is interesting to me, as it seems I'd be able to name Howlpack Alpha for Nevermore as long as there's one on the battlefield.
Practically, the situation where this comes up doesn't happen (who the hell has Nevermore and Mayor in the same deck anyway). Being a "rules guy" it always interests me when they (explicitly!) say something can happen in the Comprehensive Rules and then say it can't in the Tournament Rules.
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Is the name confusion problem solution worth this reduction in complexity?
As I understand it, the line in MTR 3.6 primarily exists to prevent "cheese" when it comes to things that generally aren't relevant in a tournament setting, where certain conventions do exist and even "supercede" the rules to facilitate the playing of a complicated game in that setting.
Aren't you reading too much into the rule?
"3.6 Card Interpretation
The official text of any card is the Oracle text corresponding to the name of the card. Players have the right to request access to the official wording of a card only if they can uniquely identify that card, although the card does not necessarily have to be identified by name. That request will be honored if logistically possible. Identifying a double-faced or flip card by either name on it is acceptable, as long as the ability that requires the name does not refer to an object on the battlefield."
As has already been pointed out, it's not in the subsection "4.2 Tournament Shortcuts"; it's not even in the section "4. Communication". It just seems to allow you to name Mayor of Avabruck by saying "the other half of Howlpack Alpha", or "the guy who transforms into Howlpack Alpha" or something like that. If you just say "Howlpack Alpha", well, that's legal. It should not be a shortcut just because one doesn't achieve anything by naming Howlpack Alpha.
I'd definitely interpret the rule the same way Ecoris does here. Naming the back face of a DFC is a legal way to identify the card to both players, but that name alone is not a legal way to specify the front face when asked to name a card.
Forget about Mayor and Nevermore for a second--the fact that it's useless to name the back face is just obscuring the underlying issue. Try Pithing Needle and Bloodline Keeper instead.
I drop Pithing Needle and say "Pithing Needle on Lord of Lineage". This should not stop my opponent from using Bloodline Keeper. If it did, what would happen if he found some way to transform the Keeper into the Lord--could he use its ability despite the fact that I explicitly named "Lord of Lineage" for the Needle?
No. Naming one side of a DFC should never be considered a shortcut for naming the other side. You can say "the other side of Lord of Lineage" as a way of naming Bloodline Keeper, but not just "Lord of Lineage". The same goes for Mayor and Nevermore.
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Deathtouch is a pretty major exception here.
And even if the Grave-Troll was a Stinkweed Imp, you'd still need another instance of attempting to draw a card in order to actually win the game.
This seems to contradict the Innistrad FAQ, and a local level 2 rules guru has told me that unlike split cards, naming the flipped side of a flipped card or the back face of a DFC is not a valid shortcut for Meddling Mage. Did I miss a policy revision?
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As lifelink, wither, infect ; anything that adds something if the "thing" deals damage , not combat damage only.
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Read the answer: This is a tournament shortcut, not part of the rules. The FAQ has the rules answer; we're answering the tournament shortcut involving naming a card where naming the other face/flipped side never has any effect at all.
"Sufficiently advanced experience is indistinguishable from clairvoyance." -Carsten
"Ah those eyes, those horrible creepy eyes!" -Chaosof99
DCI Level 3 Judge & TO
"I do not consider myself a hero. I know only what the Vec teach:
justice must always be served and corruption must always be opposed."
Go read! I am one of the three authors of Cranial Insertion.
But seriously, if you can't remember "Woapalanne", just call me Eli.
Yes:
For reference, the actual quote from the MTR on this:
Those two quotes do seem to be in direct conflict with each other. The MTR trumps the comp rules, though:
The comp rules quote is still relevant in the case of cards like Runed Halo, where it is referring to an object on the battlefield - one Halo can't give you protection from both sides.
Here you go:
Being psychic has nothing to do with it (though it helps immensely in DQ investigations). MTR 3.6 says naming either side is acceptable. There is also literally nothing that Nevermore can do to Howlpack Alpha, it would just add "cannot be cast" to a literally uncastable thing.
Lifelink, Wither and Infect are not relevant when assigning combat damage. Those abilities are among those that are relevant when the damage is dealt. The only major abilities that are relevant to assigning combat damage are Deathtouch and Trample. There are others like "super trample" from Thorn Elemental.
Brian already answered this specific case, but speaking generally: the Tournament Rules define specific "shortcuts" which are assumed to be in use unless the players explicitly say otherwise. This avoids the mind-reading problem (and the shortcuts that are defined generally line up closely with how players play anyway -- for example, saying "go" is defined to mean that you pass until your opponent has priority in your end step, which is basically how people play that regardless).
----
Lightning Bolts don't kill creatures. State-based actions kill creatures.
Nice Castlevania II reference!
For a deathtouch and trample creature, does the attacking player have to assign only 1 damage each of the blocking creatures or can he/she assign all the damage to the creatures for some reason?
When you're attacking with a trample creature, you can always assign more than lethal damage to a blocking creature. Tournament shortcuts always assume that you're maximizing the amount of damage you deal to the defending player/planeswalker unless you state otherwise.
-K
Because of the following rule (see the third and fourth examples)...
706.3. The copy‘s copiable values become the copied information, as modified by the copy‘s status (see rule 110.6). Objects that copy the object will use the new copiable values.
The following also helps...
707.2a If a face-up permanent is turned face down by a spell or ability, it becomes a 2/2 face-down creature with no text, no name, no subtypes, no expansion symbol, and no mana cost. These values are the copiable values of that object‘s characteristics.
The face-down creature does actually becom a copy of Essence of the Wild, but those characteristics are only applied when the creature is face up. When it's face-down, it is simply a 2/2. The rest of the answer gets into that element, but a face-down permanent is always a 2/2 vanilla creature (unless the spell or ability that turned the object face down set those to something else).
EDIT: Actually, this isn't a tournament shortcut, or at least is not listed in the shortcuts section. It's listed separately (thanks to whoever posted that it was item 3.6 -- I wouldn't have found it otherwise). What as a player do I need to do if I want to set Nevermore to Howlpack Alpha?
Remember, kids: Never fight with Flashback, 'cause Flashback always wins.
What, precisely, are you trying to accomplish with such a situation?
Maybe this is a bit dirty (OK it definitely is), but I'd be attempting to legally make my opponent think he can't cast Mayor of Avabruck. A possible reason not to simply name "Mayor of Avabruck" is that I have one of my own.
Much like pretending I'm deciding not to block with my Carrion Feeder -- I'm not going to break a rule, I'm not misrepresenting the game state. If the rules guys think that a play allowed by the comprehensive rules shouldn't be tournament legal, ... ok, I guess
Remember, kids: Never fight with Flashback, 'cause Flashback always wins.
Which is precisely what I figured you intended. While misleading or even using a misunderstanding is "reasonable" (and different people will probably agree to disagree on that), it's quite another to get into semantic arguments over the name of the card which generally doesn't matter. Are there times where it matters? Yes, but this isn't one of them. (Absent something that does allow you to cast a double-faced card face down.)
Remembering the proper name of a card is not a skill that is being tested, and requiring a player to provide the exact card name is not something that is necessary. So long as the card is uniquely identified for the appropriate situation, and given the game rules state that a double-faced card is cast "sunny side up", then naming either half is sufficient for that purpose. Where it matters is for the permanent once on the battlefield, and MTR 3.6 does make for that exception.
I can get behind that. I don't think remembering the names of cards should be a tested skill. But knowing the rules of Magic is a tested skill -- Magic is a complicated game and wrapping your brain around that complication is part of the point. Is the name confusion problem solution worth this reduction in complexity? Maybe. Mana burn being removed and combat damage no longer stacking speak to their desire to reduce complexity where it "doesn't matter" and keep it where it "matters".
This exception is interesting to me, as it seems I'd be able to name Howlpack Alpha for Nevermore as long as there's one on the battlefield.
Practically, the situation where this comes up doesn't happen (who the hell has Nevermore and Mayor in the same deck anyway). Being a "rules guy" it always interests me when they (explicitly!) say something can happen in the Comprehensive Rules and then say it can't in the Tournament Rules.
Remember, kids: Never fight with Flashback, 'cause Flashback always wins.
As I understand it, the line in MTR 3.6 primarily exists to prevent "cheese" when it comes to things that generally aren't relevant in a tournament setting, where certain conventions do exist and even "supercede" the rules to facilitate the playing of a complicated game in that setting.
Nevermore's ability does not care about the name of an object on the battlefield. It cares about the name of a spell.
Forget about Mayor and Nevermore for a second--the fact that it's useless to name the back face is just obscuring the underlying issue. Try Pithing Needle and Bloodline Keeper instead.
I drop Pithing Needle and say "Pithing Needle on Lord of Lineage". This should not stop my opponent from using Bloodline Keeper. If it did, what would happen if he found some way to transform the Keeper into the Lord--could he use its ability despite the fact that I explicitly named "Lord of Lineage" for the Needle?
No. Naming one side of a DFC should never be considered a shortcut for naming the other side. You can say "the other side of Lord of Lineage" as a way of naming Bloodline Keeper, but not just "Lord of Lineage". The same goes for Mayor and Nevermore.
Procrastination is an art form, and I am an artist.
Knowledge knows no bounds.
And so people say to me, "How do I know if a word is real?" You know, anyone who's read a children's book knows that love makes things real. If you love a word, use it! That makes it real. Being in the dictionary is an artificial distinction; it doesn't make the word any more real than any other word. If you love a word, it becomes real.
--Erin McKean, Redefining the Dictionary